Ground Fighting

[cross]

This is some general information about ground fighting for those who dont currently do any type of ground training.

Takedowns:
You can't groundfight unless you are on THE GROUND!!

The easiest way to get your opponent there is with the use of a takedown. Most takedowns are simple and involve sweeping/lifting your opponents legs or throwing them. They are generally performed from the clinch(you have hold of your opponent).

Positions:

Position is very important in groundfighting, it dictates what you can and cant do to your opponent.

Mount: This is the position you will most likely want to be in. You are "sitting" on your opponent and generally have an advantage.

Guard: This is a position that is not usually favoured but can be used to your advantage if you know what you are doing. You are on your back and your opponent is "sitting" in between your legs. This is considered better than them having mount on you.

Side Mount: Your are ontop of your opponent but are laying at right angles to them. This is a good position to rest for a second before you finish off your opponent. Also a good position for performing knees to the head.

What To Do With Position:

Now you know the basic positions (there are others, and variations of each) i will explain some of the things you can do from each one.

"Ground n Pound": This is a common thing to do when you have your opponent on the ground. it is usually used in the mount, but can be utilized from the guard also. Basically you strike your opponent with punches/forearms/elbows etc until you can escape or they are knocked out/dazzed. To do this well just imagine you are fighting stand-up but are at the same range all the time with your opponent, you can use most of the same strikes, blocks, guard etc. Also pinning your opponents arm(s) to there body in various ways will also aid in you landing strikes.

Submission: I would tend to use this less in a real situation because i personally find striking more practical on the ground. But if the situation presented itself a submission like a choke/armbar/leglock could be used. Just remember that your opponent isnt going to "tap-out" and you dont have time to sit around on the ground for an hour holding there arm in a lock. So if you are going to do it, make sure you cause them damage to the joint/limb.

Practice:

You can practice the positions/ground n pound on a heavy bag layed on the ground. Also grappling dummies are available (or you could make one with a jumper and some track pants stuffed and taped together). The best way by far to practice is to find a good martial arts school and spar.

[Sochin]

cross,
I'm 56 years old. I've been practicing karate since '72. I was the moderator here for years tho I had to quit.

I find it presumptuous of you to come in here, break the rules and lecture karate people on your art.

It's like a 14 yr old kid walking into a group of adults and taking over the conversation so he can boast about something he's good at.

Please take a moment to consider that we dumb karateka just happen to know everything you just posted and don't care a bit.

And then read the rules you agreed to keep when you signed in.

[Iron Chef]

Originally posted by cross
This is some general information about ground fighting for those who don't currently do any type of ground training.


Pretty useless information for people "who don't currently do any type of ground training". Sort of like here is some general information on how to perform heart bypass surgery. :laugh:


Originally posted by cross
...
I would tend to use this less in a real situation because ....
:) This is cool. I love this. In a real situation I would tend to do this or I would tend to do that...

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Welcome to e-budo good to have some young ones here. Maybe Gene and I will behave more better knowing there are children about.

[RobertW]

You are probably just trying to help but...
Maybe it would have been better to ask the question and provide a response, than to simply provide the answer to a question that was not asked. As if toi assume none of us croddy folk knoe how to "ground fight".

[Jock Armstrong]

How about you follow the forum rules and sign your real name? I notice that in your profile you do not supply your name. Regardless of the standard of your posts noone is going to take you seriously until you supply it. this is not some anime chatroon where you can be a keyboard warrior. Also, Australia is a big place. I'll be in Melbourne on the 16th of April and back in T'ville [NQ] about a week after that. It might be interesting to drop in and do some training.
What is the history of your syatem, what kata does it use?

[cross]

Please take a moment to consider that we dumb karateka just happen to know everything you just posted and don't care a bit.

I thought this might actually help some people who are starting out or want some basic information about ground fighting.

As for lecturing everyone, I didnt force you to read this information.
Nor did I mean to offend anyone.

So you probably should "take a moment to consider" that not everyone is a veteran of the arts like you who knows about ground fighting.

And calling me a "14 year old", please, I've been a member of this forum for one day and already you are insulting me because I didnt include my name in my initial posts. Im not the one being childish.

[cross]

What is the history of your syatem, what kata does it use?

We use shotokan kata. But recently went back to "older" methods and are now practicing pinan in exchange for heian which are now learned later on.

[cross]

Welcome to e-budo good to have some young ones here. Maybe Gene and I will behave more better knowing there are children about.

Well Ed, im glad to hear that you will "behave more better".

You are the one insulting me, something children normally do.

[arnie]

"insulting me, something children normally do"

sorry to hear that

ari lappinen

[P.A.L]

To Eli Bailey
I found your information kind of useful since ground fighting is not a part of normal karate schools syllabus, you also mentioned that recently you guys switched to pinan from Heian and shifted heian to be introduced later on , I was wondering in this process how did you choose between different variations of pinan in Naha-te , Tomari-te and Shuri-te and which one you picked up.
Thanks
:cool:

[Iron Chef]

Interesting information?, maybe. Informative?, most probably. Useful? I doubt it. This is about enough information that is required for someone to go out and get themselves a butt whipping.

IMO, Stuff like this does you little good unless you develop a feel for it. Instinct and senses takes time. It happens that we worked some ground fighting concepts with our Goju Students last night. Last night the lesson was about what to do if a dude has mounted you and is working from a striking gap and trying to drill you with punches. Also worked with the girls on what to do if they get mounted and somebody grabs their wrists and tries to pin them down. My Goju dojo works newaza concepts including newaza randori. We do this maybe once a month or once every 6 weeks or so. Gives the students a taste of what it is like. More importantly it puts them in a somewhat stressful situation. IMO, how someone is conditioned to react under stress is more useful than waza mechanics. Does this exposure make them proficient?, Hell no. It does teach that a lot of karate techniques can go out the window real quick when you get 200 pounds of man laying on top of you and that their comparative advantage may just be centered around staying on their feet. Especially the younger Black Belts who can box with me pretty good but if I get them on the floor they seem to find themselves tapping out pretty quick. However there have good 2 way exchanges. It wasn't until I was playing with a karate guy that I realized just how vunerable I was to having both ears boxed when on top in a 69 position ( Kami Shiho Gatame, get your mind out of the gutter Gene :) ).

IMO,If a karate student is outside an opponents guard and say he is in position for a side mount maybe he should consider getting back on his feet. Karate kicks rock when an opponent is on the ground and you aint.

IMO, Using karate striking to the vitals when in an inferior position is sometimes (often) a means of rationalization by karate advocates. Because position always matters. The man in the superior position can do the same mean and nasty things but, more easily. Hurting someone isn't rocket science. Healing now that takes skill.

IMO, You want to learn ground fighting learn a ground fighting art. Speaking for me personally It took me about a year and a half to develop a basic feeling for what I was doing. I learned waza real quickly coming from a Shotokan karate background. I was young and a somewhat athletic and used to learning physical skills in a structured envirnoment. But it took time to learn to feel my opponent. But then again I didn't have any wrestling background when I first started Judo 24 years ago.

I've requested George delete my accounts here. So I thought I would post a goodbye post. My friends have my e-mail address. I try to check my home e-mail once a day usually around 9:00 (M,W) or 10:00(T & H) this is when I usually get in from the dojo. These days, it may be a couple days before I get back to you.

Stay active. Remain off the couch. Whether you do so in a keikogi or on a Mountain Bike it doesn't matter. The TV and the internet is the enemy resist them. Never buy a car you can't push and Enjoy your practice!

[MikeWilliams]

Hey Ed, why are you leaving?

I for one have enjoyed your posts immensely. Including the one above.

[Goju Man]

Ed, sorry to hear your leaving this place. :(


IMO,If a karate student is outside an opponents guard and say he is in position for a side mount maybe he should consider getting back on his feet. Karate kicks rock when an opponent is on the ground and you aint.

I disagree. If you've gotten to the side mount position, not only can you throw some devasting strikes, ( more so than standing ) but it tells you the guy on his back has less ground skills than you and should be taken advantage of.
Why isn't anyone signing their name?? Can I stop??:D

[Harry Cook]

Just an observation about fighting on the ground. The Spartans refused to use wrestling to train their soldiers for war on the basis that a soldier on the ground could be stabbed, trampled by horses, run over by chariots etc. W. E. Fairbairn made a similar observation about the training of commandos in WW2. If you are fighting one on one then ground fighting might make sense, according to the circumstances, but if faced by more than one opponent (a possible scenario) then fighting on the ground is a recipe for disaster. While you gain the mount etc etc your opponent's friends will reshape you head with a chair, bottle, feet, etc etc.
It is interesting in the old "Battle Royals" staged by boxers where a group of men fought everyone at once, ground wrestling/fighting barely reatured.
Harry Cook

[Goju Man]

Harry, nice to see you again. I agree with your statement. I was addressing the scenario put forth by Ed. Sometimes you can't help being on the ground or are not there by choice. I prefer to be standing also. (even though I love grappling arts)

[R_Garrelts]

While the ground is probably the worst place to be in a self-defense situation or military campaign, I don’t think it is wise to ignore training on the ground because of that fact (far be it from me to argue with a Spartan, though :D ). Simply saying “the ground is the last place you would want to be in fight” doesn’t somehow magically protect anyone from ending up there. In fact, an overall unfamiliarity with how to move and position oneself while on the ground is likely to decrease the chances of getting back to a (safer) standing position and continuing the fight from there. Frankly, I think the potential dangers of fighting on the ground make it all the more necessary to have some experience with what to do in such a situation.

Of course, hopefully, the attacker will not pursue an altercation if you are blindsided and knocked to the ground (as seems to have been the norm in challenge matches in China and probably Okinawa, as well). But since you, as the defender, have little or no control over whether or not this takes place, it makes sense to have at least some familiarity with sound tactics for use on the ground

What I find most interesting is that so many martial arts practitioners (who spend much of their time training for something that is “not a good idea”—namely fighting in general) can be so quick to ignore training for a ground fight simply because it is similarly “not a good idea.” The same reasoning used to justify self-defense training in general (that sometimes you just don’t have a choice—best to be prepared), also applies to ground fighting in particular. Like it or not, sometimes you just don’t have a choice, and, yes, it’s good to be prepared.

Regards,

Richard

[MikeWilliams]

Plus, any groundfighting system worth the name will devote a lot of time to training escapes and sweeps. You know, the tools that will help you get back to your feet in the first place.

The only real way to practise escapes on the ground is by wrestling on the ground. I can't speak for the Spartans, but I say ignore it at your peril.

[Goju Man]

You know, a lot of people in the traditional ma's ignore it for many different reasons ranging from it's not karate to I'm going to keep the fight standing, etc. The problem is that your opponent may not share your ideas. If he is good at it, chances are he will attempt to put you there. Even attempting to keep the fight standing in itself takes technique and practice. There are many mma strikers that have had to learn that. Fighting is fighting, and like it or not ground work and grappling is part of fighting. It may not be a part of some schools' syllabus but it is part of fighting. A simple look at the early UFC's will make that point abundantly clear.

[Harry Cook]

Hello Manny,
I actually do quite a lot of grappling, in my own training and in what I teach, especially for the girls and women in my dojo etc. I think you need to concentrate on biting, hair pulling, eye and groin gouging, finger bending/snapping etc etc rather than armlocks and so on. Basically if you look at the banned section of the rules of any grappling system and practice the methods outlawed in the sports context you will have the beginnings of a reasonable method of self defence.
My reservation about doing a lot of ground fighting is that you tend to drill in the response to go to the ground rather than trying to keep your feet. Perhaps concentrating on Greco-Roman methods might be better.
Harry Cook

[S Ford-Powell]

Originally posted by Harry Cook
,
I actually do quite a lot of grappling, in my own training and in what I teach, especially for the girls and women in my dojo etc. I think you need to concentrate on biting, hair pulling, eye and groin gouging, finger bending/snapping etc etc rather than armlocks and so on. Basically if you look at the banned section of the rules of any grappling system and practice the methods outlawed in the sports context you will have the beginnings of a reasonable method of self defence.

Thankyou, Harry

this is entirely my viewpoint. Learn to throw, lock, strangle, kick, punch and every other aspect of the Arts that you wish, but the tricks you mentioned above are the only methods that would allow a "good littl'un" to beat a "good biggun". In addition to studying banned grappling techniques, I would recommend studying the banned striking techniques as well, so that (for example) it is as instinctive to kick the groin and knee as it is any other target.

[Goju Man]

Harry, it is good you address these things. The greco roman approach is very good for developing a "sprawl". That technique is essential for keeping the fight standing. But the small joint manipulations, for example are not the total answer, IMO. In a real confrontation, both combatants can use these same dirty tricks, so it's a wash. What then differentiates the two is position. In grappling, there are different schools of thought. One emphasises submission over position, where as he would likely give up a position of possible advantage in order to obtain a submission or finishing lock. The other is position over submission, where the impotance is on a superior position. That one is especially important to the striker because not only are you in a better position to deliver harder strikes, but also being able to stand back up or run if necessary. Those positions are more offensive where other positions are more defensive. For example: You may be in someones' gaurd, although both of you can do small joint manipulations or groin strikes, if the guy on top is raining down punches all over you, you either go for broke, try the vital strike and hope you damage him before your unconcious, or become defensive and try to keep him from tearing your head off and negating his strikes while tireing him out, ala Royce Gracie. So, even though you can break fingers or strike vital areas, if you're in a defensive position rather than an offensive position, (being on top) the deadly strikes or small joints are of little use.

[RobertoK]

I dont understand why some people think that by learning basic brazilian jiujitsu or judo newaza they get an instant "beat any karate blackbelt free" card. Granted that if you take them to the ground, most (and notice I typed MOST not ALL) karatekas will feel very helpless.
Now, what happenes before you get the almighty takedown? The point between you and him, a straight line, needs to be closed, right? So let's not count our chickens before they hatch, guys. I hold high rank in both grappling arts and let me tell you, if I was fighting an experienced, strong as an ox, bulldozer-looking Shotokan blackbelt, I'd be sweating bullets the moment prior to the clinch...if there is a clinch. This is all my opinion, though, I may be way off I dont know but what is true is that one should never underestimate his/her opponent.
On the other hand, I read people using ancient warfare as reference. Guys, the Spartans, Romans, Carthagians, Numidians, Gauls, ect., also thought that fighting empty handed was a bad idea, but it happened. Sometimes a warrior falls to the ground and another jumps on top, or maybe loses the sword or a javelin is stuck on the shield and must be dropped having to resort to punch and kick until another weapon is handy.
Still, ancient war was played out with weapons not empty hands or lose clothing. Usually there was more involved in the clash of the running front lines than a bout of fisticuffs: armor, shields, helmets, bracers, shinguards, spauldrons, a gladius here, a pilum there...you get the idea.

P.S- Excuse the bad English, I bet I have lots of run-on sentences. :(

[Wounded Ronin]

Gee, does anyone know where I can see some of the early UFCs? I've heard about them but was never able to see them.

[Jeff Cook]

With all due respect, in my unfortunately extensive experience with real fighting, "biting, hair pulling, eye and groin gouging, finger bending/snapping etc etc" are generally not party stoppers - although they do have some value when put in the proper context. Plus, as aforementioned, you cannot execute these techniques unless you are in the proper position to do so, whether you are standing or rolling around on the ground.

So, in my opinion training on achieving a superior position to either escape or finish is a very high priority. After drilling the methods to obtain superior position you can immediately implement this training by effectively escaping. With additional training you can then implement execution of successful finishing techniques.

In my karate and jujitsu practice we call this taisubaki. Karate finishing moves are useless without getting ourselves in the proper position to execute them. Slipping a punch or a kick, blocking, trapping, throwing and redirecting cannot be done without putting ourselves in the proper relative position to our opponents.

Why should these principles be any different when talking about ground fighting?

I frequently encounter good folks who do "grappling" training in the form of learning a few positions and a number of "tricks." These folks predominently are searching for a quick solution without having to put in the actual work of learning positional strategy and how it relates to self-defense. This is unfortunate, and can potentially get someone hurt if they end up in an actual self defense situation. I have had a few sensei insist that they can defeat inferior positions by doing these tricks, but they always seem to fail when they try.

When I began training in martial arts I wanted to learn to be good at striking technique. I trained in kung fu, then karate and achieved black belt rank. I wanted to learn good throwing/redirection techniques, along with various submissions, so I trained in aikido, jujitsu, and judo. I achieved black belt rank in judo and jujitsu. I thought I was pretty good at ground fighting from my judo training, until a BJJ white belt handed me my !!! multiple times. So now I train in BJJ, and have achieved a blue belt, working on my purple.

My point: Keep your eyes open, remember previous lessons learned, and go to the experts to learn various aspects of fighting.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

[hectokan]

Quoted by Mr Cook,
So, in my opinion training on achieving a superior position to either escape or finish is a very high priority.


This is so true and unfortunately it's not something which one can just learn from a seminar or be able to apply just because you know what the advantageous positions are.



Quoted by Mr Cook,
In my karate and jujitsu practice we call this taisubaki. Karate finishing moves are useless without getting ourselves in the proper position to execute them. Slipping a punch or a kick, blocking, trapping, throwing and redirecting cannot be done without putting ourselves in the proper relative position to our opponents.
Why should these principles be any different when talking about ground fighting?


So true.

[Goju Man]

Jeff, how are you? You are absolutely right on. Even guys I know have a lot of jujitsu techniques in their "bag of tricks" are unable to pull them off when rolling. Learning the technique properly is only part of the battle. That's why sparring is important in karate. You may know a lot of techniques, but can you execute those techniques in a combat situation? This is why Kano removed the deadly techniques to be able to do randori. This is why jujitsu guys do ne waza all the time. Good luck on your purple.

[RobertoK]

You gentlemen are keeping an open mind to BJJ...and in an all-traditional martial art forum at that. I'm truly impressed and glad to be here :D

[Goju Man]

Originally posted by RobertoK
You gentlemen are keeping an open mind to BJJ...and in an all-traditional martial art forum at that. I'm truly impressed and glad to be here :D
Roberto, we are not only karate ka, but several of us train actively in bjj and judo. We're glad you're here.

[Jeff Cook]

Roberto, in my opinion one is a traditionalist in the martial arts when one is only interested in learning the best methods to defend and fight. Affiliations and styles are not a factor to a true traditionalist. True traditionalists constantly challenge what they have been told and taught, and constantly seek a better way to get the job done.

Manny, Hector - great to hear from you guys! Things are going well, now that I am back from contingency ops. I will probably be down in Miami in a couple of weeks to work on setting up a jujitsu division with the FLMA circuit. I could sure use your help! Let me know if you want me to look you up; it would be great to meet you.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

[RobertoK]

Jeff, I agree with you 100% I am myself a traditionalist in the sense that I practice traditional sport bjj complemented (sp) with traditional sport judo to enhance my sport-oriented game. I hope I caught the point in your response since English is my second (or third) language and I'm still improving in this area :)

[Jeff Cook]

Roberto, your english is excellent! I only wish my spanish was just as good....

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

[RobertoK]

Thanks, I wish I could speak it as well as I write it :(