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FujitaMakoto
25th March 2004, 03:05
I am not quiet done reading all previous posts, nearly a hundred, regarding the significance of seiza so I apologize ahead of time if this question may have been already been answered.

What is the significance of dying while sitting in the seiza position?
I am researching a very minor historical figure who did practice martial arts, more than one "koryu", his entire life (Pre and Post Meiji). I am not certain if this detail on his death is merely more "color" added to his biography or fact...but I am still interested in the implication of this action.

Thank you very much for your time.
I hope I am posting in the right forum---I am a non-practitioner, I picked this forum because of the constant use of the general term koryu associated with this person's life (as I understand, researchers are not certain as to which lineages he practiced).

Walker
25th March 2004, 17:16
If the person died of natural causes (I assume) while in seiza there may be a connection to Buddhist thought. Something along the lines of passing away while in full possession of mind and body like a Hindu passing away with the word God on their lips.

tsurashi shondo
25th March 2004, 17:24
Is this figure Tesshu?
He was quite character.

FujitaMakoto
25th March 2004, 17:26
Thank you Mr. Walker, yes, he died of natural causes (not suicide/execution).
The person I am researching is Saitou Hajime capt. of the third squad of the controversial Shinsengumi (security force in Kyoto 1863-1868 rough dates) and assistant to the vice commander Hijikata Toshizo.

After the Boshin War he joined the Tokyo Metropolitan Police Dept (as did many former samurai) and fought in the Seinan War (Satsuma Rebellion) as well.

The Japanese sites in my signature focus on his life. The sites are based on various books. There are also a couple of novels and a movie, MIBUGISHIDEN (When the Last Sword is Drawn) about him as well. It is very difficult to find information, in English, concerning the Shinsengumi from an unbiased point of view (this is true for much of history isn't it?).

FujitaMakoto
25th March 2004, 17:33
Mr. Tracy, sorry I'm not sure what you mean by Tesshu.

tsurashi shondo
26th March 2004, 02:31
Originally posted by FujitaMakoto
Mr. Tracy, sorry I'm not sure what you mean by Tesshu.
---------------------------------------
Sorry , I should have been less cryptic, I thought perhaps you were refering to Yamaoka Tesshu (born Ono Tetsutaro) 1836 - 1888, founder of Muto-ryu sword school.
In the early hours when I posted, I was recalling that he had died in seiza, but in fact he died sitting zazen.
Below is his death portrait. He was a remarkable man to read about, but I'm sure you have your hands full allready!

Mekugi
26th March 2004, 04:52
Was his death suicide?
-R

Originally posted by FujitaMakoto
I am not quiet done reading all previous posts, nearly a hundred, regarding the significance of seiza so I apologize ahead of time if this question may have been already been answered.

What is the significance of dying while sitting in the seiza position?
I am researching a very minor historical figure who did practice martial arts, more than one "koryu", his entire life (Pre and Post Meiji). I am not certain if this detail on his death is merely more "color" added to his biography or fact...but I am still interested in the implication of this action.

Thank you very much for your time.
I hope I am posting in the right forum---I am a non-practitioner, I picked this forum because of the constant use of the general term koryu associated with this person's life (as I understand, researchers are not certain as to which lineages he practiced).

FujitaMakoto
26th March 2004, 05:01
From what I understand from the websites listed under my signature he died of natural causes -gastric ulcer- in his own home (not suicide/execution).

tellner
28th March 2004, 20:06
A very interesting book on his life is "The Sword of No Sword".

kokumo
30th March 2004, 17:28
Originally posted by Walker
If the person died of natural causes (I assume) while in seiza there may be a connection to Buddhist thought. Something along the lines of passing away while in full possession of mind and body like a Hindu passing away with the word God on their lips.

Basically, yes, although the "naturalness" of the cause of death is not an issue.

Within the Buddhist tradition, having sufficient grounding and control to pass while in meditation, whatever the diagnosis of the cause of death (with the exception of suicide) is sometimes regarded as a sign of having reached the third stage of a bodhisattva (1. A Stream Attainer or Arya, 2. A Once Returner, 3. A Non-Returner, 4. An Arhat).

An Arya is believed to have dropped the delusion of personal existence, doubt, and attachment to rite and ritual. A Once-Returner has, additionally, overcome greed, delusion and ignorance. A Non-Returner has, additionally, overcome sensuality and ill-will. In addition to these various taints which relate to the world of form, an Arhat will have given up a range of desires related to the formless world, which is taken to mean the pleasures attendant to deep meditative states of various kinds.

So....to make a long story short, considered in combination with his life-long dedication to zen meditative practice, mid-life cessation of his heroic patronage of local brothels (for which he was also renowned), his organization of drinking parties intended to keep dangerous characters indoors and sozzled rather than engaging in crossroads predation and thievery, and loyalty to Buddhism at a time marked by the consolidation of State Shinto and the widespread depiction of Buddhism as a "foreign religion," the apparent fact that Tesshu passed while meditating has contributed to a belief among his followers that Tesshu was an advanced bodhisattva with great command of hoben or "skillful means" used to draw sentient beings into the Buddhist path and away from actions which would cause harm to them and others.

In the high Himalaya, he probably would have been considered a lay lama in the "crazy wisdom" tradition.

Hope this helps.

Fred Little

FujitaMakoto
2nd April 2004, 16:21
http://www.1to5.net/saito/history/sonotoki.html
http://www.3-hajime.com/dekigoto10.html

I used http://babelfish.altavista.com