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Jamie Stokes
25th March 2004, 06:32
Hi all,
there is a similar thread on Aikiweb regarding speed and quickness.

In my opinion, being fast helps, but if your technique is sloppy, speed dont help.
I prefer training in a technique slow, learning the movement properly, and build up the speed.

P Rhese. (a paraphrased quote.) said something along the lines of
Being Heavy and rooted is different to being light and mobile.
P. Rhese is of the "Light" camp, but I make no claims for or on his behalf. He inspired the question.

Heres the question.

What are the advantages/ disadvantages to being Light as to being Heavy.

Warmest,
Jamie.

PS Peter,if you read this, apoplgies for not accurately quoting you, I thought what you wrote was a great idea.:D

PRehse
25th March 2004, 07:28
No problem - by the way its Rehse (everyone seems to get it wrong). :D

There really does seem to be a difference in the light and heavy camps now that I think about it. I wonder if that has to do with how the Aikido is learnt.

Slow deliberate training to advance technical understanding taken too far perhaps.

Without doubt speed is often used to disguise sloppy technique so slowing the training down has real advantage but with my body if I remain rooted I'ld be squashed.

szczepan
25th March 2004, 16:03
Yesterday I had very interesting experience with three of our "heavy weight" = about 100 kg and 190 cm height. One of them is very stiff, two of them have very "combative spirit" and can be dangerous. They like to attack in the way to see if technique is efficient.

So task is very complicated. I must slow down but still preserve efficiency of techniques. All this is done in humorous way, they don’t like to “loose”. I still need a certain degree of cooperation; otherwise I’m not able yet to preserve safety of techniques at my level. I must often switch techniques to adapt myself; I use also surprise, and a lot of “psychology of comportment”.
Such practice make me more and more humble…….

I’ve been discussing recently with my wife the reasons why aikido techniques can’t be executed at the same speed as judo techniques. I understand that in great speed it is impossible to preserve safety, but still, with attacker at my level and higher, I try to do techniques as fast as I can. We are doing techniques far too slow in generally.

don
25th March 2004, 17:48
Originally posted by szczepan
I still need a certain degree of cooperation; otherwise I’m not able yet to preserve safety of techniques at my level. I must often switch techniques to adapt myself; I use also surprise, and a lot of “psychology of comportment”.
Such practice make me more and more humble…….

Yes!

There have been no dearth of individuals to tell me that my technique must stink if I need to do ATEMI or switch to another, but I often feel the same as szczepan myself.

Bumping up against this, I often rue the absence of competition in aikido. The cooperation thing gets very confusing.

Thanks for the candor, szczepan.

cguzik
25th March 2004, 20:28
It seems to me that a particular technique only evolves because uke and nage move in a particular way such that the technique happens to evolve. Neither myself nor most of my partners are good enough when moving at any rate of speed to ensure that everything happens quite right for the 'desired' technique to evolve.

Further, I feel that I, as uke, have only a cursory understanding of how my movement "causes" a particular technique to evolve -- and most of the time that my partner as nage is not sensitive enough to know when I go awry in this area; if they are they tend to choose not to point it out.

The net result is that instead of studying how techniques evolve from a certain dynamic between two partners, we end up studying how to "make" a particular technique happen regardless of the context. I suppose it is valuable to understanding what it is that makes a technique work to study this at times, but should it be the primary practice? I would offer that it should not.

I also have a hard time keeping myself and my partners interested in the study of the evolution of technique. It is SO EASY to fall into the mode of must do kotegaeshi! (for example). If I can get out of that mode as nage, I still frequently find my self in the mode of must throw uke!, to the exclusion of paying appropriate attention to openings and movement.

I find that these tendencies get worse the faster I go. It is of course my hope and expectation that slow careful practice will instill in me the ability in an applied situation to move correctly when needed, at a faster pace. Jiyuwaza with reversals (or one-on-one randori) does help me gain confidence that this is the case. It also serves to show me where my need to throw my partner takes precedence over good posture and keeping my body moving, which tends to happen way too often.

Chris

Ian McDonald
25th March 2004, 21:32
I'm with Don on this. There are a lot of folks where the technique just will not work without atemi. In fact, my technique sucks because I cannot throw Don unless I hit him (hard) or he decides to let me throw him. Speed, OTOH, seems to help greatly with entering as well as atemi. Slow, weak atemi doesn't work any better than swatting flies with feathers. Adequate speed will ususally allow one to do some sort of decent technique. Most of us train way too slowly nearly all the time. Most of you out there that think your techniques actually work are dangerously deluding yourselves. Sometimes, non-cooperative training is needed to provide a little humble pie. I will be the first one to say that (I think) my aikido looks real good and works very well against most aikido trainees, but I can't do squat against some 23-year old who outweighs by 70 pounds and wants to take my head off (my student, BTW). About the only thing I can do against him is to start pounding away and not let up until he goes down. Then I can pin him with ikkyo.:laugh:

And Don, I'll be looking you in April.

stoker
25th March 2004, 21:53
Most of the 'heavy' folks can only do 'heavy Aikido'. The folks who practice 'light' can easily scale up and go heavy. The heavy folks are like jack hammer operators and the light folks are like surgeons. I can easily out muscle 90% of the folks I run into but I would much rather be able to out tecnique 99.999% of them. :D

Jamie Stokes
25th March 2004, 22:18
Hi Guys,
thanks all, great thought provoking answers.

I would love to cross train in a "light" style as opposedto what I feel is a "heavy" style.

But that is one of those internal things.

being mobile and light, and out manouvre/ technique somebody would be better than trying to outmuscle someone. There are people stronger than me out there.
BUT....
If too strong, you lose your speed (think body builders. They hit you, its gonna hurt. If you can dodge and sidestep, thye might not have the speed to keep up.)

As for doing Atemi, never had a problem with this, its how I was taught to make uke move. ie Uke raises his hand to bloke because you are doing a strike. His hand is up, grab limb and atemi to target of choice, do a throw/ guide his movement and finish with pin, if appropiate. (I know that sounds terribly offensive in nature: I dont always train like that, and at worst, we as nage are guiding ukes movement;) )

examing my own movement, particuarly during breakfalls, I think I am one of those heavy types.

I imagine one could be light and "slow" in ones movement.

Non co-operative traing. I like the sound of that. File that away for future play:)

I'd love to stay and chat longer, but work has to get done.

Play well, smile big!

Warmest,
Jamie.

don
26th March 2004, 00:29
Originally posted by cguzik
....instead of studying how techniques evolve from a certain dynamic between two partners, we end up studying how to "make" a particular technique happen regardless of the context. I suppose it is valuable to understanding what it is that makes a technique work to study this at times, but should it be the primary practice? I would offer that it should not.


I would agree. I think that "making the technique work" is what KIHON is and is training for beginners. My most stimulating training, however, seems to happen with teachers who are only using techniques to demonstrate principles and may do two or three or more during the course of their presentation. Reaction from trainees is often, "What are we supposed to do?" Here, trainees are given latitude to respond to the vagaries of different UKEs' different attacks.

don
26th March 2004, 00:31
Originally posted by Ian McDonald
....my technique sucks because I cannot throw Don unless I hit him (hard) or he decides to let me throw him.

DJM: Not my recollection, but, as always, YMMV.

Most of us train way too slowly nearly all the time....Sometimes, non-cooperative training is needed to provide a little humble pie.

DJM: Hark! An echo!

And Don, I'll be looking you in April.

DJM: And I, you, Ian. Take care.

szczepan
26th March 2004, 01:57
Originally posted by Ian McDonald
I'm with Don on this. There are a lot of folks where the technique just will not work without atemi.

It depends of "dojo's culture", but generaly, well, if we talk about practice in the dojo, you can't hit attacker in weak points for real. Principal reason is that his attack isn't for real either. So to keep things cool, you must arrange yourself without atemi.
Particularly if your attacker is much higher ranking that you are. There are also sometimes folks from karate or boxing, so they master atemi better then aikidoka and it may turn into exchange og atemi => very bad solution.

Usually atemi problem is complicated one, cos big folks can absorb more atemi than "lihgt weigth". And with strong attaks, even with proper intent, in rush, adrenaline is jumpimg quickly, and friendly atemi may be very easy misunderstood.

no, atemi isn't "magical solution" for me.

I think that study of the evolution of technique is good if you master kihon, and have no technical problems.So you, as tori, you can study technique, but your attacker is free to do what he want...... Otherwise it will be falsing our perception of aikido. I don't know how to explain better.....hmhmh....... Also, if you decide this approach, uke's reactions aren't natural.Uke became conditionned as dogs of Pavlov and this is THE end of aikido.

Jamie Stokes
26th March 2004, 02:53
Hello all,
Agreed, atemi is not the be all and end all, or this would be a karate forum:)

Atemi, as i understand it, are used to help / break ukes balance. They will not make up for weak technique.

Uke do get trained when learning a move. But randori should clear that.

Full out attacks. I'm not a black belt, but I understand that as you go higher up, the uke will give you more energy.
(hmm, this thread seems to be drifting. Let it)

Mostly though, I don't give full power strikes, as I'm more concerned with not smashing ukes target parts. Or Uke smashing mine when it comes to swap roles.

How do you train to become "Light"?

tai chi style training wouldn't seem to acheive that end.:p :(

Warmest,
Jamie

salazar2kk
26th March 2004, 07:14
There are people in my dojo who are heavy, or flat footed, and don't give a very good or realistic and committed attack. I find that movement is the key. It doesn't have to be fast, but by increasing the distance, I make them over extend themselves. But I don't have to "run." I've seen several Shihan stand there while the uke came in at full speed. They were not pressured or hurried and did the technique at a moderate pace. It's all about the timing. As for big uke's, I could throw someone or take them down, but they would get hurt and that is not the goal of Aikido or our training. Besides, if we do that, we'll never reach that plateau of being able to take down anyone, regardless of weight, height, or strength, like most of the Shihans can do.

cguzik
26th March 2004, 15:10
Originally posted by szczepan
I think that study of the evolution of technique is good if you master kihon, and have no technical problems.So you, as tori, you can study technique, but your attacker is free to do what he want...... Otherwise it will be falsing our perception of aikido. I don't know how to explain better.....hmhmh....... Also, if you decide this approach, uke's reactions aren't natural.Uke became conditionned as dogs of Pavlov and this is THE end of aikido.

Exactly! That's whay I was getting at when I said:


Originally posted by cguzik

Further, I feel that I, as uke, have only a cursory understanding of how my movement "causes" a particular technique to evolve -- and most of the time that my partner as nage is not sensitive enough to know when I go awry in this area; if they are they tend to choose not to point it out.


Uke has to do what's appropriate for a real attacker who is smart about openings in order for tori's movement to make sense. Otherwise, tori mistakenly learns that the waving of a hand is sufficient to throw.




Originally posted by szczepan
There are also sometimes folks from karate or boxing, so they master atemi better then aikidoka and it may turn into exchange of atemi => very bad solution.

Usually atemi problem is complicated one, cos big folks can absorb more atemi than "lihgt weight". And with strong attaks, even with proper intent, in rush, adrenaline is jumpimg quickly, and friendly atemi may be very easy misunderstood.


Yep. I am not a big guy, and have only practiced striking in an aikido context. I train with a couple of former karateka who simply don't care if I hit them. As I am learning better how to strike efficiently with power, I am noticing a difference in how they respond, but most aikido teachers don't teach the striking stuff explicitly. Interestingly (to get back on the original topic), those guys also have a very heavy feel to their aikido (they are getting lighter though as they continue training).

Chris

drmarc
26th March 2004, 16:02
Being a small guy (5'5") forces me to have focus very hard on making a technique work (I jokingly call it Midget-Waza). I can ill-afford to let a big guy swat me (which is why I started off in Karate many years ago). I think that the question raised, points to several areas for me.

1) Kihon Waza. It is akin to learning the alphabet, putting together words and basic sentences. Getting Kihon Waza under one's belt takes years (at least for me, but then again I consider myself an intentionally slow learner). I find that by going at a speed in which the nage can maintain a strong center, good balance, and proper movements is important. Going too quickly in the beginning is a great way to hide mistakes (I know this personally). Then again, I do not believe that we should ever stop focusing on developing a deeper understanding of kihon waza.

2) Connecting with the uke before any contact is made. If we have not done this, then we are only as good as our reaction speed. That is why many shihans can remained relaxed when a fast attack comes. They are not worried about reacting, they are already in tune with the attacker. If we are in tune with our attacker, it should be easier to redirect the uke's energy in order to unbalance their attack. An off-balance attacker will naturally try and re-establish balance before resuming the attack. It the attack does occur off-balance, it is usually ineffective.

3) Atemi. I am doing a lot of internal debate within myself as to what constitutes atemi. I have seem many instances where the atemi becomes a substitute for the person not connecting with the attacker in time, and relying on that strike to unbalance the attacker. This is an important area for me, because I do not want to get into a boxing match with a 6'5", 275lb. person. If my first strike did not work, I'm in trouble. In watching all of the videos on O'Sensei and watching the changes in my teacher over the years (he is now 65), I am questioning anew as to what constitutes an atemi. Can this "vital strike" also be a powerful move and redirect without a strike? Watching O'Sensei's execution of techniques towards the end of his life appears to lead me towards this "punchless atemi." I find in myself, the ocassioned time when my connection with the attacker is right on, my re-direction disables them from being able to effectively attack me, while making the execution of the technique feel "easy."

4) Safety. If we are suppose to be in harmony with the attacker (as opposed to the new age interpretation of giving the attacking a spiritual white rose before the execution of the technique), then that severe force turned against the attacker will easily result in injury. I believe that this is why competition is discouraged. This leaves us with the "honesty factor." How can we train in an honest and safe manner that takes into account our abilities so that we are always pushed forward in our development. I find that this requires ukes who really know how to attack. A genuine trust in my partner, and a sensitivity with each other that allows us to "push the envelope."

Dr. Marc

Jack B
26th March 2004, 19:29
Atemi should be an irimi throw (Tomiki bias showing). That way if it works great, if not it sets up the follow. Since it's a throw you're not counting on pain which may not be effective.

What makes Aikido unique is that NOT ADDING POWER is intrinsic to the art. Other arts, even Judo, say "use power to do the techniques" but expect you to turn it off to not hurt someone. Aikido makes not using power the normal condition, instead of an exception. This means you don't have to "decide" not to use power, while you DO have the option to decide to ADD power if you want or need. If running power is your normal, you get screwed up if you decide not to use it because you are not used to operating that way. That's why it's SO important to really let softness do the work for you.

To get this softness, you have to train soft and slowly, with an uke who (a) knows what is happening physically or is inclined to find out by experimentation, and (b) is totally honest about what is happening and not trying to contest the throw outside of the reactions that would be possible at the speed you are working. IE, if you are moving quarter speed, and uke blocks something or recovers balance or stiffens up at full speed, that violates the integrity of the practice. If quarter simulates full speed, then moving full speed in that context means you think you can suddenly start going 4x faster than full speed whenever you want in a real situation.

"The secret is simply this: you must relax body and mind totally.
You must be prepared to accept defeat repeatedly and for a long period;
you must 'invest in loss' -- or you will never succeed."
- Cheng Man-ch'ing, c.1967

This betrays that the central issue to be conquered in Aikido is one's own ego, the desire to win and the fear of defeat. Change your goal, your definition of success, from "doing the technique" or "beating your opponent" to maintaining principle, form, relaxation and yielding. For a long time.

Pay very close attention to off-balance, body movement, space, timing, angles, reactions and rhythm (especially up-down).

pcallen
31st March 2004, 20:44
There are two ways to look at this.

One, by "heavy" you mean unresponsive and resisting. The other way - the way that I looked at this term "heavy" was that you mean grounded or rooted.

With ukes that have a large mass that is low to the ground your ability to take their balance is going to be a measure of your timing. Most people with this body type resist movements or postures that lead to off balancing. Kazushi on this uke may require atemi. Add to this that some techniques are harder to make work against certain body types.

What you might percieve as an uncommited attack may simply be an unconcious attempt to maintain balance. If you are convinced that the attack is uncommited try not moving. If there is no real attack there is no reason to move.

If uke is resisting technique he or she may be trying to compete with nage. If this resistance is due to trying "not to lose" this is a problem best taken to your teacher. At certain points in training resistance is useful but only at certain levels.

Some ukes that are not very flexible may seem to be "resisting" technique when in fact the resistance comes from limited range of motion in certain limbs.

As someone with this low heavy body type and old injuries that limit range of motion many of my nages probably have this complaint.

Ian McDonald
31st March 2004, 21:24
I have thought about this a little more and I realized that one of the biggest impediments to training with any real speed is the generally poor quality of ukemi many aikido students exhibit. Bad ukemi makes for fearful students which, in turn, makes them too scared to attack freely, with full spirit and vigor. And nage must respond to uke's movements to make the techniques "aiki." So I think that if we want to train with speed, perhaps the best means of getting there is to first perfect our ukemi, then our attacking skills, and finally, work on our ability to apply aikido to full speed attacks. I know that my poor to average ukemi skills do affect how fast I respond (or can respond) to a throw after I attack. Although I can throw a lot of quick hand techniques, the feet are much slower. The "heaviness" that many aikido students experience comes from the inability to instantly change the attack, to take ukemi for both protection and counter attack. It is mostly a matter of improving one's footwork so one doesn't plod and lumber along. Also, I think Ellis Amdur has some very good ideas on ukemi as countering moves.