tsuki

[ulvulv]

go down moses

http://www.kendo.hu/2003/images/tsukimozog.gif

[Shison]

Um, not being too familiar with kendo....

Is that a point?? :D

p.s. Do they have a .gif for the match that happened behind the dojo about 10 minutes after keiko between these two?? :D

[ulvulv]

Originally posted by Shison
Um, not being too familiar with kendo....

Is that a point?? :D

p.s. Do they have a .gif for the match that happened behind the dojo about 10 minutes after keiko between these two?? :D

Sometimes a point isnt the point.

One of the guys got the point, thats for sure

:D

[Paul Kerr]

There's a good discussion of this here (http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2505&highlight=tsuki) on the Kendo World forums.

[darenyoong]

I read the thread on Kendo World Forums. Interesting =)

[Brian Owens]

It does illustrate well the outcome of most historical sword fights -- they're both dead.

One of my complaints about the sporting forms of Budo is that, at least in the cases of arts I'm familiar with, when both opponents score a the same -- or nearly the same -- time, it's called a "clash" and neither opponent gets a point. The match continues.

I think a new scoring system should be adopted where each contestant starts with a certain number of "life points" and each time he is scored on he loses points. When you're out of points you're out of the game. It might cut down on cases of "fools rushing in."

Thoughts or opinions?

[mingshi]

Originally posted by Yagyu Kenshi
I think a new scoring system should be adopted where each contestant starts with a certain number of "life points" and each time he is scored on he loses points....

...the point is, you only live twice ;)

[ulvulv]

What about chalking the shinai with red chalk, wearing blackboard-coloured gi and hakama, and having a millitary doctor as a judge. As soon as one of the fighters have a "lethal" cut, the flag goes up. ;) And no protection. Screaming in pain confirm that you are wasted, ready for departure to the higher dojo.

[Daniel san]

That's not too shabby an idea there. Or you could have armour made of dry erase board...Seriously, the military doctor as a judge is a solid idea. Where can I order one of those "military doctors". ;)

[AlexM]

Originally posted by Yagyu Kenshi

I think a new scoring system should be adopted where each contestant starts with a certain number of "life points" and each time he is scored on he loses points. When you're out of points you're out of the game. It might cut down on cases of "fools rushing in."

Thoughts or opinions?

That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

My response is a bit harsh but really that's just an weird suggestion. The point isn't to kill your opponent in shiai. It's just to get a clean ippon.

[IZA]

The way i see it, the guy with the tsuki is so DEAD. The shomen was really good... ahead from the thrust.

[Brian Owens]

Originally posted by mingshi
...the point is, you only live twice ;)
Or so it seems. Live once for yourself, and once for your dreams. :D

Originally posted by AlexM
...My response is a bit harsh but really that's just an weird suggestion. The point isn't to kill your opponent in shiai. It's just to get a clean ippon.
And that's exactly my point. The rules have changed the intent from being a method of practical training in The Way of the Sword to being a game of tag where whoever gets there first wins, even if their method exposes them to what would have been -- in a real sword match -- a lethal or crippling injury. Thus my "fools rushing in" comment.

[ulvulv]

Kendo is a fight where you try to overwhelm the opponent with your spirit. It is a meeting of spirits, mind versus mind. Aiuchi, the meeting where both hith eachother at the same time, would be fatal in a real swordfight, yes. In kendo, it is a great moment, when the two meet with equal spirit and technique.
A kendoka of high standard will get his clean ippon, without being hit by the opponents shinai. Sadly, I have seen people with 25 years of mileage, doing very nice kihon, jikeiko and kakarikeiko, but as soon as they enter the shiaijo, all the dignity goes out, and they do anything to get a point, and mess up the opponents attack. Pushing, shoving, bending. Kendo should not be judged from that kind of behaviour.

The ideal of kendo is far above being "a game of tag"

I have lost my temper one or two times in my "kendo-_time", in a taikai, a guy the same level as me, kept leaping in to taiatari, to shove me out of the shiaijo. At one moment, I got so annoyed, that I let go of the shinai with my right hand, gripped him behind his neck, threw in the hip, and did a hipthrow. he landed outside the shiaijo and lost his men. I got a hansoku of course. When he had put on his men again, his zanshin was gone, and he was so angry, that it was easy for me to get him with two nice kote. I am not proud of loosing my temper, but it was fun to be "down and dirty" for once.
He was careful with his tai atari in later fights.
:D

[AlexM]

Originally posted by Yagyu Kenshi

And that's exactly my point. The rules have changed the intent from being a method of practical training in The Way of the Sword to being a game of tag where whoever gets there first wins, even if their method exposes them to what would have been -- in a real sword match -- a lethal or crippling injury. Thus my "fools rushing in" comment.

Kendo is not a game of tag (it may look like it to the untrained) and why do I need to learn how to kill someone? The Zen Nippon Kendo Renmei doesn't seem to think that killing has anything to do with kendo or budo, so why should I?

Where do people get this idea that kendo was some kind of practical training in the "good old days"? Kendo was developed essentially AFTER Meiji and after the need for "practical" training went out the window. I've seen pre-war kendo, it's not pretty and it doesn't look practical. To me it looks like guys flailing around with sticks while off-balance. Kendo was never been a "battlefield" art. It's just budo: develop yourself trough training, take from it what you want. Kendo today is so much more refined anyway: the one thing kendoka want is to get that one good hit while taking an advantage of an opponent's opening. That does not equate it to a game of tag, and anyone who actually follows or has seen high level kendo would know this.

[chrismoses]

I don't claim to understand all of the intricacies of Kendo, I can only occasionally tell who got ippon. I do know that it's quite a bit more than tag, and since it isn't my art of choice, I generally refrain from advising the thousands/millions(?) of practitioners how to make their art better. It could also be pointed out that shiai is only a portion of what makes up Kendo and that even that has shades and variations. I'm sure that shiai between two 18 year olds hoping to make nationals would look quite a bit different than two 6th dans who had trained together and fought each other for three decades. I doubt they would need judges to tell them who had the advantage.

Anyway, just thowing that out from another non-kendoka.

[DCPan]

Hi everyone,

I obviously need more training as I don’t have the good sense to keep my mouth shut! :D

However, I do have a few thoughts on the matter.

I use to have really strong convictions about “how” a match is to be fought.

In my first tournament match ever, I was matched up against a lady. I scored the first point. Not wanting to win on technicalities, I would back up to the center when she gets near the boundry lines so she wouldn’t get a penalty. End result? I lost by being pushed out of bounds, 4 times , by a person who is probably about half my weight at best.

Similarly, my friend told me that one day while I wasn’t at practice, someone lectured to the beginners regarding team matches…paraphrased as follows:

“You know why Mr. Pan isn’t going to be on the team this time even though he has more experience (than the beginners)? It is because he is not a team player. He places his idea of what Kendo is OVER the welfare of the team….”

Being mostly self-absorbed “back then”, I didn’t really care as I did believe the integrity of my kendo is more important than the welfare of the team. That person’s analysis was fair.

But I did learn something from that, honor is NOT the same thing when you have a different frame of reference. From a personal vantage point, I was being true to myself when I ignored the instruction “Just stall to maintain your lead….” From a team vantage point, I was being selfish by placing my own “image” over the needs of the team.

Hence my other thread about bushido vs. chivalry. Are you sure you understand the value of bushido? Did you place your service above yourself? Did you place your dojo’s honor before your own? I obviously didn’t.

Even this desire to “intentionally” get a clean ippon. How much of it is hubris? :D

Like what sensei was saying in practice, “You are not doing anyone a service by playing nice”. You can be buddy-buddy off the floors, but on the floor, you TRAIN. How will you learn to deal with ruthless opponents when you’ve never been ruthless?

Perhaps, it is from watching too much of the NHK drama “Musashi”. Perhaps, it is from the various other readings that I’ve been doing.

I am SERIOUSLY wondering how much of what I think IS kendo is romanticized hogwash, how much of it is romanticized carryover from western chivalry, and how much of it is “really” what kendo should be.

Besides, I don’t understand why so many people is perpetrating the idea that there is only “one type” of kendo, and the rest are somehow “wrong” or “archaic”.

I personally think it is what makes Kendo so wonderful and challenging. It is a real testing ground for you to see if your ideals and values will prevail over those of others.

I don’t really have an answer to any of this, but I do have an idea of where I want to go from here.

I am going to try to not mold myself to a particular image, which I have been doing the whole time eventhough the image itself has changed more than a couple of times.

I will simply train even more earnestly, forget myself in the training, and see whether my true self will emerge.

:D

[Charlie Kondek]

Originally posted by AlexM
Kendo is not a game of tag (it may look like it to the untrained) and why do I need to learn how to kill someone? The Zen Nippon Kendo Renmei doesn't seem to think that killing has anything to do with kendo or budo, so why should I?

Alex, from one kendoka to another, I have to respectfully disagree.

In the first place, the stated purpose of kendo according to the ZNKR's charter is: "The concept of Kendo is to discipline the human character through the application of the principles of the Katana." While indeed this is a lofty goal that is not necessarily best described as "learning how to kill someone" I have to ask what other "application of the principles of the Katana" there is. It's not a boat's oar or a baseball bat, it's a sword, it has one purpose: kill the other guy. And if you're not "learning how to kill someone" what other "principle" are you learning?

However, the root of our discord lies in your conception of kendo as not being a fighting art. My view on the historicity of kendo differs with yours. You feel it was not developed as a practical method of fighting; I disagree, I believe that's exactly why it was developed. It's not a battlefield art, to be sure; it's a dueling art. That is, it is not meant to emulate armored combat but the street skirmish of the unarmored, the showdown at high noon, the bar fight.

It was created in the 1700s specifically, we read, because opportunity to practice practical swordsmanship was limited. But I think it was also created because swordsmen of the day didn't want to find out too late that their actions were too slow. It became a "sport" and a codified way of physical education, that is true, but I don't think it has drifted so far from its original purpose that you can no longer call it sword fighting.

What we're really arguing when we argue this is semantics and perhaps motive and intent, but what it ultimately leads me to ask is: if your kendo isn't "leaning how to kill," then WHY isn't it? Certainly, it can be if you make it? Recently I learned that old skool kendoka tried to practice "kiru kendo," "cutting kendo" as opposed to "hitting kendo." I think this suggests kendo can be something mentally different to different people.

Of course, anyone that walks around boasting to be a modern-day samurai is a knob whether he's a kenshi, iaidoist, whatever. But I respectfully disagree that kendo is so far divorced from actual melee. That and sixty-five cents will get you a very cheap cup of coffee.

:D

[gendzwil]

Just wanted to explain something David said. When playing a match for yourself, you can play with a sports mind or a pure kendo mind. Pure kendo mind would be do your best, play very clean and go for the 2 point win. If you use a sports mind, it's different. For example, if you feel like you're in tough and you get ahead by 1, you probably want to play more defensively and protect your lead rather than risk losing a point to get the glorious 2-point win. If your opponent is near the edge of the court, you might go for that extra-strong taiatari to knock them out and force a penalty. If you're in a round-robin, you might play for a tie depending on how you evaluate your chances against other people in the pool.

A team usually consists of 5 players a side, and there are 5 individual matches. The team that has the most wins, wins. In case of a tie on wins, the team with the most points wins. Because there is no OT in team there are 5 situations that apply to your own match - win by 2 points, win by 1 point, tie, lose by 1 point, lose by 2 points.

When playing a match for the team, you have to have sports mind, period. The goal is to win as a team. In addition to understanding how to win your own match by not only skill but understanding the rules, you have to consider what has happened in the previous matches, what is likely to happen in the future matches, and add into that a realistic evaluation of how you stack up against your opponent. This determines whether you must win, if you need two points, or whether it's safest to go for a draw. If you're down by a point you might even play safe there, if you know the other team needs 2 points to win.

All these considerations are pure sports kendo strategy, and David's coaches were absolutely correct in keeping him off the team if he was always looking to win as an individual. Of course, playing as an individual it's up to you which approach to use, although I know lots of coaches would lambast you for being stupid about your individual matches too.

My opinion is, shiai is shiai. By entering a tournament, you're giving over to the dark side. You don't have to be ungentlemanly about it, but not playing according to situation and rules is not too bright. Jigeiko and shinsa is where you can show your perfect kendo.

[gendzwil]

Just replying to myself - actually, playing with a pure kendo mind, you'd walk off the court after the first point is scored. Dude is dead, no reason to continue.

[DCPan]

Dear senpai,

Between the kendo mind, sport mind, and heijoshin, my mind isn't so sure where to go from here! :D

Just kidding!

:D

[Paul Kerr]

Neil, David

Thank you for your recent posts to this thread. I have found them very educational and interesting reading.

[Brian Owens]

Originally posted by Paul Kerr
Neil, David

Thank you for your recent posts to this thread. I have found them very educational and interesting reading.
What? No thanks to me for stimulating the posts? :D

[Paul Kerr]

Take it as read Brian! I was subliminally thinking you :D (oh, and Charlie as well!!)

[Charlie Kondek]

Good thing you added that or I would... well, you wouldn't like it!

:D

I hope Alex responds.

[Paul Kerr]

Aw hell, this is a losing battle I see :D

Thanks EVERYONE who's contributed to make this interesting (slinks sheepishly off into a corner cursing why he didn't just say that in the first place)

[Aozora]

Originally posted by Paul Kerr
Aw hell, this is a losing battle I see :D

Thanks EVERYONE who's contributed to make this interesting (slinks sheepishly off into a corner cursing why he didn't just say that in the first place)

I concur... this is one of those threads that makes e-budo worthwhile.

I just recently got into kendo (August 2002) and I've started to think about it and go through the sport vs. martial art debate in my head about it.

David--xtra special thanks to you... including a personal story like that is worth it's weight in gold. Thanks for opening up!

To all who've posted... domo arigato gozaimashita. :smilejapa

[AlexM]

Originally posted by Charlie Kondek
Alex, from one kendoka to another, I have to respectfully disagree.

In the first place, the stated purpose of kendo according to the ZNKR's charter is: "The concept of Kendo is to discipline the human character through the application of the principles of the Katana." While indeed this is a lofty goal that is not necessarily best described as "learning how to kill someone" I have to ask what other "application of the principles of the Katana" there is. It's not a boat's oar or a baseball bat, it's a sword, it has one purpose: kill the other guy. And if you're not "learning how to kill someone" what other "principle" are you learning?



Carefull there Charlie. The stated PURPOSE of kendo is the paragraph under the one you quoted.

http://www.kendo.or.jp/english-page/english-page2/concept-of-Kendo.htm

You actually read the CONCEPT of kendo.. which to me sounds like one of those typically obtuse sentences the Japanese are so capable of creating.

In the PURPOSE of kendo according to the ZNKR there is nothing about killing or even specifically learning swordsmanship. It's all about self-improvement: to strive to build yourself up through rigorous and sincere training (that's the best way to describe any form of budo). What you get out of kendo or any form of budo is up to you. I like to think that I'll be able to develop more of "go" attitude through trying to apply sutemi to everyday life (fools rushing in be dammed! :D ). If other people try to develop self-control or other things that's up to them.

I think the real idea behind kendo and budo in general is that you have to put in an effort to better yourself. You're going to suffer a bit and through this suffering you're going to become a better person.

I equate modern budo and kendo more with the 19th century's concept of "amateur sport". Why practice sport? Because it makes you a well-rounded individual. Winning is fun but the real opponent remains yourself. The point isn't the final ippon or goal scored on the pitch: it's everything you've done before that to improve.

It's too bad sport has actually become such an idiotic endeavour these days.

[/QUOTE]
However, the root of our discord lies in your conception of kendo as not being a fighting art. My view on the historicity of kendo differs with yours. You feel it was not developed as a practical method of fighting; I disagree, I believe that's exactly why it was developed. It's not a battlefield art, to be sure; it's a dueling art. That is, it is not meant to emulate armored combat but the street skirmish of the unarmored, the showdown at high noon, the bar fight.

It was created in the 1700s specifically, we read, because opportunity to practice practical swordsmanship was limited. But I think it was also created because swordsmen of the day didn't want to find out too late that their actions were too slow. It became a "sport" and a codified way of physical education, that is true, but I don't think it has drifted so far from its original purpose that you can no longer call it sword fighting.
[/QUOTE]

Kendo is not a "fighting art" because it is useless in practical terms. A great kendoka doesn't necessarily know how to use a sword and he doesn't need to. If kendo was a fighting art it would be useless, oh so totally useless.

Be carefull not to mix up when the technology for kendo (shinai, bogu) appeared and when an actual "concept" of kendo appeared. I submit that it's really after Meiji that people started asking: "Why I am doing this? It's useless, if I kill someone I'll go to prison. If someone has a gun I'll die like an idiot. There must be a better reason for this kind of practice."

I think the answer to "why do kendo" was "self-improvement" not "to learn proper swordsmanship" (as useless a skill as ever there was one in the modern world). That's why it became a part of the educational curriculum in Japan.

The original purpose of kendo was self-improvement not swordfighting, so I don't think there was much of a drift quite frankly.

It's too bad none of us have the time to research this but it would be fascinating to find out if there were parallels between the addition of physical education classes to the normal school curriculum in the West and the advent of kendo or judo classes in Japan.

[/QUOTE]
What we're really arguing when we argue this is semantics and perhaps motive and intent, but what it ultimately leads me to ask is: if your kendo isn't "leaning how to kill," then WHY isn't it? Certainly, it can be if you make it? Recently I learned that old skool kendoka tried to practice "kiru kendo," "cutting kendo" as opposed to "hitting kendo." I think this suggests kendo can be something mentally different to different people.
[/QUOTE]

I don't practice kendo to learn to kill because it's useless (I kill someone and I become a prison bride) and those kendoka that seem to think along those lines have never had a kendo that interests me.

I get more out of kendo by simply trying to improve myself (to have better control, to get faster while maitaining form, etc. just the usual) than I would if I kept thinking: would this kill someone? I want to win in shiai and do good kendo at the same time. And yes, that is possible.

Sweating it out in the dojo is how I improve who I am (Man, I hope it works because or else I'm wasting my time). Although those around me will tell you I'm still a jerk (probably worse).

[/QUOTE]
Of course, anyone that walks around boasting to be a modern-day samurai is a knob whether he's a kenshi, iaidoist, whatever. But I respectfully disagree that kendo is so far divorced from actual melee. That and sixty-five cents will get you a very cheap cup of coffee.
[/QUOTE]

Samurai are knobs.

Mêlée combat I leave to medieval enthusiasts. Swords in mêlées became obsolete in Japan almost 1000 years ago... although in duels they were still used obviously. héhé

I just do kendo. I strive for a good ippon. I'll let you know when I manage to get one. :D

I strive to be improve because through this kind of training I think I can develop character.

Of course, I might be wrong about all of this (from the "factual" evidence to my own opinions)... and I am so often wrong.

That's all.

[Charlie Kondek]

Well, I think there's no right and wrong in this discussion. Something as broad as kendo can be many things to many people, don't you think? You and I are actually on the same page in the Why of kendo; I utilize it the same way you do.

And I made the remark about a cheap cup of coffee because the whole discussion is purely speculative. We're not going to be in a swordfight, we have the luxury of discussing these things one weekend warrior to another from behind our keyboards a couple hundred years removed from when it was a critical issue. As you said, we're never gonna be in a swordfight, so what does it matter?

I simply wanted to take issue with your comment that kendo was not sword fighting, while admitting that it doesn't matter if it is or it isn't. You may have a point about the difference in kendo between 1760 and 1860, one as a means of field-testing one's kenjutsu, the other as a school activity. As I said, I personally don't think they're as far aaprt as we would like, or, if they are, maybe we can adjust that.

Lemme ask you one thing.

If you knew you were gonna fight a duel with katanas a year from now, what would you do to train for it?

Wait, I'll make a separate thread out of this.

Couple other points.

1) The ZNKR kendo concept and purpose statement is split as you said, but the forth line in refers us back to the Concept statement. "The purpose of practicing Kendo is: To mold the mind and body, To cultivate a vigorous spirit, And through correct and rigid training, To strive for improvement in the art of Kendo..." What is kendo? See the Concept statement. *Shrugs* Splitting hairs, maybe.

2) You wrote "it would be fascinating to find out if there were parallels between the addition of physical education classes to the normal school curriculum in the West and the advent of kendo or judo classes in Japan." I agree. But I'd be willing to bet that phys. ed. as part of a rounded-out curriculum originated with the Greeks in the west and was probably re-introduced in the 19th-century. Not sure what the Japanese learning model was but I wonder if it wasn't modeled on the Chinese - and I don't know what the Chinese was.

3) You wrote, "It's too bad sport has actually become such an idiotic endeavour these days." What do you mean? Are you referring to the lack of sportsmanship in modern sports, the gimme gimme gimme of pro athletes that trickles down even to high-school kids? If so, I agree, but hopefully we faithful are keeping the true faith.

4) "Samurai are knobs." What do you mean? Historical samurai were knobs or the Highlander wanna-be types.

[DCPan]

Originally posted by AlexM
I'll be able to develop more of "go" attitude through trying to apply sutemi to everyday life (fools rushing in be dammed! :D ). If other people try to develop self-control or other things that's up to them.


How do you apply "sutemi" if the thought of life and death never entered your mind?

"Sutemi" loses its "nioi" if you don't respect the idea that Kendo was elevated from an art of conflict that involved life and death.

Like what Neil was saying above, when practicing, I can sense (or fool myself into being able to sense) a difference in someone practicing with the "sport mind" vs. the "kendo mind".

For those practicing with the "kendo mind", in their movement, there is a "sense of danger" that is not present in those that are trying to shinai tag you.

FWIW

:D

[AlexM]

I have clue what "nioi" means. I can tell you that I don't think about life and death with sutemi (or kendo), I think about it in terms of ippon (virtual death? :D) . In everyday life I just think about it like a way of saying "just do it and let yourself go: win or lose at least you jumped" not very deep right now but I'll put more thought into it later.

I ignore "tags" in jigeiko.

I don't duel with anyone and I don't entertain the notion of "dueling". I have a loathing of the whole: "but if you had a sword..." arguments. They're ridiculous at face value.

This IS a ridiculous discussion. But I'll keep going... although boredom is starting to set it for all involved.

1) The concept of kendo, the art of kendo, the purpose of kendo, etc... The art of Kendo to me is getting a clean ippon. If that means I have to cut, then I cut. If it means I have to tap, then I tap. If it means I have to whack someone over the head with a rubber chicken while wearing medieval armor then that's what I do. Whatever it is, the spirit remains through the effort and time and sincere training put in. Ippon is different for an 8th dan than it is for a kyu. That's normal. As long as they both know what they want to get out of their kendo and they make the effort to push themsleves then they're doing budo. They don't need to be thinking in terms of "this would kill him".

2) The Greeks most certainly came up with the phys. ed curriculum first. I'd wager your assumption about the Chinese education system being imported is right (mandarin-type tests were administered in Japan... although they took the bloodlines of candidates into account much more than the Chinese did).

3)I just mean the kind "triumphalism" that comes with modern sport (even in amateur sport now). The notion that because you can score or win that's all you need in life. That is far too hollow a notion to me. Who cares you can do on the field... Performing well in any sport is a means to an end, not an end in itself.

4)Wannabe samurai are knobs... when they show up to practice with us we try to get them to leave those notions aside and just do kendo. A samurai in this day and age is just a pretensious jerk with homocidal tendencies and odd thought about his own social standing. Kendo has remarkably little to do with samurai.

And for that record: the "tsuki" that started this thread is in no way shape or form ippon. I'd be tempted to give the guy hansoku for overdoing it a bit with the shove, very poor sportsmanship. :D

[Charlie Kondek]

Ha! I agree that the tsuki was probably not ippon. It didn't look like the person giving the tsuki had zanshin. It looks like he just had a good center and his opponent ran into it and almost knocked himself over.


This IS a ridiculous discussion. But I'll keep going... although boredom is starting to set (in) for all involved.

No biggie. I don't think it's ridiculous. I view it as simply a discussion on two different but not necessarily opposed philosophies. I hope you are not in the habit of dictating to others that their philosophy should be yours, or that if it isn't, they are somehow "doing it wrong." I think this very discussion happens at even the highest levels; certainly I have been on the receiving end of such discussions with high-rankign sensei, who have often admonished us younger kendoka to keep in mind the origin, the purpose, the concept of kendo.

[AlexM]

I meant that it was ridiculous in the sense that both opinions have now been expounded on and that people get what they want out of kendo. How someone else wants to think about kenod does not really concern me much.

Actually I was thinking he should get hansoku because he DIDN'T keep the center until the guy came in hit and his men. It looked more like he was just trying to "cancel" out the point (a definite budo no-no). Not very generous kendo: if you get hit, you should just take it. One must be willing to say: "thank you very much for that ippon!". That's part of budo and good kendo in my opinion.

I like generosity in kendo. :D

[DCPan]

Originally posted by AlexM
I have clue what "nioi" means. I can tell you that I don't think about life and death with sutemi (or kendo), I think about it in terms of ippon (virtual death? :D) . In everyday life I just think about it like a way of saying "just do it and let yourself go: win or lose at least you jumped" not very deep right now but I'll put more thought into it later.


Well, my personal view of it is, in order to have gravity in your "sutemi", there has to be something "worth" giving up :D

Perhaps life and death is not the best terms to describe it. I am simply saying that worry about "losing" the point isn't "heavy" enough to make "sutemi" meaningful, unless you are Eiga facing Kim in the representation match.

Similarly, "sutemi" is fairly meaningless to those who only protect the point areas and leave the rest of their body open.

Some folks train not to get scored upon. Some train to not have the shinai contact them, valid strikes or not. It's not right or wrong, just to each their own.


Originally posted by AlexM
This IS a ridiculous discussion. But I'll keep going... although boredom is starting to set it for all involved.

I'm not bored by the other folks that have contributed to the thread...so I don't see where the "all" part comes in :D


Originally posted by AlexM

1) Ippon is different for an 8th dan than it is for a kyu. [snip] They don't need to be thinking in terms of "this would kill him".


"Yuko datotsu"...whether you translate that as "effective strike" or "this would kill him" is just mincing words.

OK, so on top of speaking for everyone else in this thread by saying "all is bored...", now you are telling us what 8th dans needs or need not be thinking about? :D

There ARE many ways of the mountain, I hope :D


Originally posted by AlexM

3)I just mean the kind "triumphalism" that comes with modern sport (even in amateur sport now). The notion that because you can score or win that's all you need in life. That is far too hollow a notion to me. Who cares you can do on the field... Performing well in any sport is a means to an end, not an end in itself.


Well, if you want to go that route...even the "zanshin" after the strike in tournaments now are what folks would call "display behavior" rather than "zanshin"...but that's another topic....

And yes...that is not a good tsuki. No control. No "sae". No "riai". But the other guy did appear somewhat top-heavy after the men strike as well.

[chrismoses]

Appologies to the list, but could someone explain sutemi within the context of Kendo? I'm only familiar with the term WRT judo/jujutsu, (if indeed you're using the same word and not just a homonym). This has been a really interesting discussion, but not being a kendoka I must admit to having the distinct feeling of being outside looking in (not that that's a bad thing mind you).

[Charlie Kondek]

I just realized something after watching that GIF a bunch of times.

I think I was THERE. I think that's from the annual Detroit tournament. And the person giving the tsuki may be Taro Ariga-sensei. It looks like something that happened in one of the teams finals or semi-finals. Anyone know the origin of that GIF? The site hosting it is not in English...

[ulvulv]

Originally posted by Charlie Kondek
I just realized something after watching that GIF a bunch of times.

I think I was THERE. I think that's from the annual Detroit tournament. And the person giving the tsuki may be Taro Ariga-sensei. It looks like something that happened in one of the teams finals or semi-finals. Anyone know the origin of that GIF? The site hosting it is not in English...


look at
http://www.kendo.hu/2003/

[Charlie Kondek]

I did look at it, Ulv. What language is that? I can't read it.

[DCPan]

WOW, I¡¦m verbose today.

Anyhow, I wanted to share a few thoughts on how bushido ¡§may¡¨ be related to Kendo.

Kendo begins and end with ¡§rei¡¨. However, does everyone agree upon what that ¡§rei¡¨ is?

Like my comment about honor earlier, not everyone has the same code of conduct.

I still remember watching a match where one of the opponents had only one leg. The other leg was probably gone from the thigh down, but I can¡¦t really tell as well¡Kthe hakama is in the way.

I remember thinking to myself that the other guy was a real brute as he kept trying to push the one-leg guy out of bounds¡KHARD. At point, the one-leg guy must have hopped a good ten feet back to regain his balance without falling.

With ¡§my¡¨ sense of fairplay at that time, I thought the other guy was a total a**hole.

Now, I¡¦m not so sure.

Has anyone seen the movie ¡§Sugata Sanshiro?¡¨ In the movie, the main character is a judo guy that has the fight a match against a jujutsu guy to prove the worth of judo, or something along those lines. The jujutsu guy was an old man stricken with some lung disease and was so feeble he could barely stand, but decide to have the match anyway.

So, as the match proceeded, the judo guy threw the old man as hard as he could until the old man couldn¡¦t get up anymore.

You could say it was cruel to throw that sick and feeble old man around like that.

You could also say that the action was borne out of a very profoundly deep respect that few would understand¡Kfrom one bugeisha to another.

Along the same lines, perhaps the guy above pushing the one-legged guy around is shown a different kind of respect, by treating him like anyone else and giving his best to try to beat him, ANYWAY he can.

Yeah, I agree that anyone pretending to be samurai is better off joining the SCA or something.

However, there is value to learning what samurai and bushido is about, because sometimes, the frame of reference with which we evaluate the etiquette of kendo may not be all that accurate.

[Charlie Kondek]

Well said, David.

I was hoping you'd define sutemi as well.

Doesn't it mean commiting one's all to an attack with disregard to any thought of injury to one's self?

[AlexM]

Originally posted by chrismoses
Appologies to the list, but could someone explain sutemi within the context of Kendo? I'm only familiar with the term WRT judo/jujutsu, (if indeed you're using the same word and not just a homonym). This has been a really interesting discussion, but not being a kendoka I must admit to having the distinct feeling of being outside looking in (not that that's a bad thing mind you).

Check this out:

http://www.mcgillkendo.ca/eng/textes_experts/NARAZAKIengl.htm

There's a simplified notion of sutemi in that little text.

Sorry for the poor translation.

Charlie,

That doesn't look like Ariga to me for some reason (I haven't seem too much of him though, but I think he's bigger than that). I remember hearing something about Dave Mori (Mississauga Kendo Club I think) with regards to that clip. Don't quote me on that though.

[Charlie Kondek]

I printed that for later reading, Alex.

I tried to blow up the gif but it's too pixelated to read the background. But I would swear that it's the southwest corner of Birmingham Seaholm High School in Birmingham, Michigan, down to the color of the brick. As for who the combatants are, I really don't know. I have only seen Ariga-sensei play a few times and have really admired his kendo even if it is a bit rough. Just this past year I saw someone tai-atari with him and fall over, not because he was pushing but because his bearing, his center, was so strong. Inspiring, to me, anyway.

[ulvulv]

Originally posted by Charlie Kondek
I did look at it, Ulv. What language is that? I can't read it.

Hungarian.


Ulv is part of my last name. Roar is my complete first name. And i dont read hungarian either :)

[Charlie Kondek]

Sorry, Roar. By Ulv I was referring to your screen name or a derivation of your screen name.

[DCPan]

Originally posted by Charlie Kondek
I was hoping you'd define sutemi as well.

Please Charlie, put me on the spot! :D

As with any subjective experience, I don't think it's something that can be easily put into words, esp since I don't really experience life and death situations in my day to day stuff (okay, maybe Seattle traffic is getting worse, but....)

I'll see if I can "pirate" something from the cool books Sato Nariaki sensei wrote tonight....

:D

[DCPan]

Perhaps I should give it a shot at what I think sutemi is right now before I go off looking for “orthodox” answers….

In my mind, sutemi has the feel of “I’m willing to die if I can take you down with me”.

This reminds me of a conversation with one of my sensei where he expressed his belief that sutemi is more of a product of Japanese militarism during the World Wars than anything else, similar to the philosophy of the Kamikaze pilots…after all, name me another martial art that doesn’t place much on defense?

Normally, in training, sensei talks about winning before striking.

In my view, sutemi is actually contrary to that concept.

When your opponent is more skilled than you and/or equally skilled, you may not have the chance to win before you strike. Thus, in my mind, sutemi is used in a situation where you have to win, but you can’t control your opponent enough to win before you strike…herein, the RISK factor of choosing to strike before you have control of the situation.

I commonly hear sutemi used to describe two situations.

One is where you are striking from to-ma, where you are so far away that your swords are not in contact to physically take the center. It’s a very risky tobikomi. Kind of like the 3-point shot in basketball, if you will.

The other situation is where you’ve found an opportunistic opening that you did not create, but you throw your whole self into the attack, regardless of whether that opening is real or a trick by the opponent.

Thus, while you can always choose to attack with reckless abandon or no regard to your own welfare, I think sutemi waza is more meaningful when you use it to try to break off a stalemate against your opponent and/or to try to beat a superior opponent. In my mind, to do sutemi against a weaker opponent is silly.

So, the corollary to that is if you are using rensoku waza, it’s not pure sutemi in my view. Sutemi is demonstrated in ONE all-or-nothing effort to strike down the opponent.

Similarly, I do not believe you can be doing sutemi all the time, as sutemi would lose its meaning, without something to provide the contrast in the change-up.

After all that, I guess I still didn’t really “define” sutemi huh?

Going off the kanji, it literally means “to give up the body”.

In essence, I believe it means to attack by placing yourself in a position / mentality where you already have nothing to lose.

This is my current personal view of what sutemi means to me. Your mileage may vary....

[Arman]

I believe Alex has it more correct. I'll let Dreager speak for a few moments, not because I think he's the only authoritative point on the matter, but because I agree with what he says, and he says it much better than I could :) :

"Neither classical kendo, as it was first designed and taught. . .in the seventeenth century, nor kendo as it is practiced today is either a fighting art or a pure sport. The most experienced devotees of modern kendo consider it to be primarliy a system of spiritual discipline. . .The essence of kendo is spiritual. . .it is most difficult for the average modern person to understand that the main purpose of kendo is not the acquisition of technique. . .numerous modifications in classical technique were necessary to create the modern kendo techniques. These modifications are indicative of the change from swordsmanship as used in combat to its use on the level of spiritual discipline and that of sport." (Modern Bujutsu and Budo, Draeger, pp. 77-106)

He then goes on to illustrate the numerous differences between classical swordsmanship and modern kendo, in terms of stance, cutting, targeting, combative theories, etc., etc.

The whole point being, the root of modern kendo is based on swordsmanship. Modern kendo does not, however, teach swordsmanship, where swordsmanship is defined as the acquisition of knowledge and technique for the express purpose of killing your opponent either on the battlefield or in a civil duel. The fact that modern kendo retains significant elements of its root art forms is irrelevant, because the very existence of modern kendo is predicated on the evolution from classical swordsmanship to physical and spiritual development. In other words, that's why it exists as it does in the first place.

Which is sort of what Alex was trying to say, I think.

Anyway, Charlie? I just know you're typing away a reply right now. :)

Best regards,
Arman Partamian

[DCPan]

Originally posted by Arman
"Neither classical kendo, as it was first designed and taught. . .in the seventeenth century, nor kendo as it is practiced today is either a fighting art or a pure sport. The most experienced devotees of modern kendo consider it to be primarliy a system of spiritual discipline. . .The essence of kendo is spiritual. . .it is most difficult for the average modern person to understand that the main purpose of kendo is not the acquisition of technique...

Hi Arman,

With all due respect to Draeger, Kendo primarily being a system of spiritual discipline does not preclude it from being martial or being a sport.

Similar to AlexM said on the first page, people can take what they want for it exactly because Kendo is neither a pure fighting art nor a pure sport.

What bothers me is when people preclude Kendo from being "martial" because it is primarily a "spiritual" discipline because it begs the question of "how" is that spirituality achieved?

It is "through" the sincere and earnest "acquistion of the technique" that one polishes the spirit.

Thus, while the "acquisition of technique" is not the goal of Kendo, it is the "means" through which you achieve the goal of Kendo, or the so called "spiritual" discipline. So, if you are not sincere in your "acquisition of technique", what are you polishing yourself with?

Besides, sometimes I have to wonder how much of Kendo's mantra re: spiritual development/physical education is about getting out from the post-war ban?

Also, I have to wonder sometimes about the folks who raise objections about the target limitations in Kendo.

Isn't it often stated in the explanation of koryu kumitachi kata that while in practice, you strike the opponent's bokuto to allow continuous movement through the routine, whereas in application, each strike to the opponent's bokuto is a possible strike to a vital area or a decision fork to an alternate path in the kata?

So, what's so different about koryu: "I'm hitting your bokuto, but I'm really striking your jugular" vs kendo: "I'm hitting your men futon, but I'm really cutting your jugular"???

Limitation of technique? How often has it been stated that rather than a collection of "how-to" in situations, most "practical" koryu have a limited number of kata that teach you the kabala through which you can react with the philosophy of the ryu against infinite possibilities?

So, in a similar vein, why is the limitations of kendo technique even an issue?

If you can't learn to be flexible about what you learn in Kendo, what makes you think you'll be flexible about what you learn from Koryu?

FWIW

[Charlie Kondek]

Anyway, Charlie? I just know you're typing away a reply right now. :)

I am the e-budo kendo kop, aren't I? I'm deputizing DC Pan and appointing Gendzwil sheriff, with Hyaku as district attorney.

Anyway, David said it very well. Please understand, I'm not denying that kendo is a path of spiritual and mental growth as well as physical discipline - that's certainly how I see it and I thank God for it - I only take issue with the idea that it has no application to "actual sword combat" or is so far divorced from it that it does not resemble it. I respect Draeger and haven't read much of his work (although I have read the volume you're quoting from) but I wonder if his ideas wouldn't have evolved beyond the sharp do/jutsu distinction maintained in his works if he'd lived longer and continued writing. After all, I think he insisted on distinctions not maintained by the persons he was writing about. Or perhaps we as his readers want to make more of the do/jutsu distinctions than he intended. That's very possible, we do tend to repeat such maxims like Gospel around here (look at all the folks that diss Hagakure just because Hurst did).

After all, Draeger wrote:


"Neither classical kendo, as it was first designed and taught. . .in the seventeenth century, nor kendo as it is practiced today is either a fighting art or a pure sport." (Emphasis mine.)

I agree. It's a pretty special entity, like iai, its blood-brother. The ONLY thing I am trying to say is, warts and all, I think kendo would do a pretty good job of preparing one for sword-to-sword combat. That's really the ONLY thing I am responding to. That's why I made the other thread, the "you have a year blah blah" thread. Which I haven't looked at yet this morning... could be erupted into flames...

Oh, and I must repsectfully disagree that the reason kendo exists is because of "the evolution from classical swordsmanship to physical and spiritual development." I could be wrong, though, it would take a more informed person than I am to prove it. I just think that if kendo was created in the 1700s and became a kind of academic pursuit in the 1800s what was happening in between? I think persons must have used it as a means to practice sword-fighting, at least that's what the few texts I have access to suggest. I could be wrong, though, and would love to hear a much more informed opinion!

Pan:

I really dig your thoughts on sutemi. Still processing them.

[Charlie Kondek]

Alex, that article on Narazaki is awesome!

Questions:

1) Why was he imprisoned waiting for execution? Why wasn't he executed? Something to do with the war and the occupation?

2) What were his exercies for tan-ryoku "abdominal muscle exercises: a breathing technique aimed at increasing the strength of fundamental vitality?"

[AlexM]

Originally posted by Charlie Kondek
Alex, that article on Narazaki is awesome!

Questions:

1) Why was he imprisoned waiting for execution? Why wasn't he executed? Something to do with the war and the occupation?

2) What were his exercies for tan-ryoku "abdominal muscle exercises: a breathing technique aimed at increasing the strength of fundamental vitality?"

1) I don't know the details of his imprisonment. He was either:
A) A communist or anti-fascist during the war years and thus irked the military government of Japan.
B) Was somehow "associated" with the Japanese government during the war years (and this could range from loosely loyal lowly bureaucrat to rabidly fascist/racist commander in Manchuria) and thus fell under the ire of the SCAP during the post-war years.
My best guess would be option B, although I can't tell you the range.

2)I wish I knew. I do have another text about Matsubara Teruyuki (famous 8th dan) who would practice breathing excercises in his car on his way to work (I assume he controled his breath release). I don't know actual abdominal excercises he's referring too. I suppose it has something to do with breath control. I didn't cut anything from the text I translated (which is available in the archives section of the French section of the McGill Kendo website). I'm afraid that what you see is what you get.

The Matsubara text won't be ready anytime soon. The French translation I'm working with (and cleaning up) is just too difficult to deal with (It gives me headaches).

[DCPan]

Originally posted by AlexM

The Matsubara text won't be ready anytime soon. The French translation I'm working with (and cleaning up) is just too difficult to deal with (It gives me headaches).

Hi Alex,

I'd be eternally greatful if you give us a heads up when the Matsubara text is done! :D

I've been wanting to learn more about him since his article on "hitori keiko" back in June 1994 issue of Kendo Nippon.

:D

[Robert Miller]

Why is kendo not considered "pure sport"?

[DCPan]

Originally posted by Robert Miller
Why is kendo not considered "pure sport"?

The quick answer is because the "points" are subjective and can not be quantified.

Hence all the talk and worries about the scoring changes needed if Kendo were to become an Olympic "sport".

:D "I'm not even going to try the long answer this time"

[Robert Miller]

Aren't the points in boxing subjective? and basketball, for that matter?

[AlexM]

Originally posted by DCPan
Hi Alex,

I'd be eternally greatful if you give us a heads up when the Matsubara text is done! :D

I've been wanting to learn more about him since his article on "hitori keiko" back in June 1994 issue of Kendo Nippon.

:D

David,

I think that I have the French translation of that article here. It's about the importance of personal practice with biographical notes thrown in for good measure. If you read the Japanese original then you understand it slightly better than I do.

My sensei's wife has been translating Kendo Nippon and Kendo Jidai articles for her husband for the last 20 years: He tells me that he has an giant pile of them. Unfortunately the translations are very difficult to understand (they're done literally at the request of my sensei) and thus have to be cleaned up before they can even be posted in French on the McGill Kendo website.

I can't translate much now... I'm wasting too much time on e-budo! :D

We hope that in the future we can post as many articles as humanly possible.

Check out the text by Tetsushi Abe. There's a reason that the Hungarians have such good quality kendo... and he's it.

[Charlie Kondek]

Originally posted by Robert Miller
Aren't the points in boxing subjective? and basketball, for that matter?

What's subjective about a basketball point? It's either in the bucket or not. Boxing is another matter.

What do you mean by "pure sport?" If boxing is pure sport, does that mean it's not combat?

Edit: Or should I be the one answering the question?

[Robert Miller]

Well, if a player in basketball "hoops" it in, but another player has struck that player, it is called a foul...at which point some esoteric rules are applied to the situation. I'm not sure what they are, but often they have judges, I think they're called "referee's" which establish precedence. I think that all sports are subjective, further; all sports can be a psuedo- (or not so psuedo, depending on the zeal of a given participant) spiritual experience.
Kendo is a sport, which is not a bad thing.

[DCPan]

Originally posted by Robert Miller
Kendo is a sport, which is not a bad thing.

Nobody said it wasn't. I'm just saying it is not "just" a sport.

Not going down the road of defining what is a martial art, what is a martial way, what is a sport road again :D

[chrismoses]

Originally posted by DCPan
[snip]Not going down the road of defining what is a martial art, what is a martial way, [snip]

It's very simple, if it ends in "do" is a way and totally impractical virtaully dance, if it ends in "justsu" it's totally practical, has nothing to do with developing character and has been "combat tested".




Oh and if you believe that, I have an extremely ancient samurai sword once used by Oda Nobunaga in full polish that was, er, remounted in Chen fittings that I'd be willing to sell for a very reasonable 6 figure sum... ;)

[Charlie Kondek]

LOL. To me, saying "it's just sport" suggests the sad state of sports and sportsmanship in the modern world. I think all sports could be as spiritually and mentally elevating as kendo.

[not-I]

Originally posted by DCPan

[...]
After all that, I guess I still didn’t really “define” sutemi huh?

Going off the kanji, it literally means “to give up the body”.

In essence, I believe it means to attack by placing yourself in a position / mentality where you already have nothing to lose.



Hi David,

This interview (http://www.kendo-world.com/articles/magazine/hanshi_says_(harada)/index.php) with Harada Genji Sensei about sutemi (from the Kendo World website) might shed some more light on the matter.

As for my 0.02 Euro...

Although sutemi surely has the kind of tactical applications you described, when i first heard the term i was immediately struck by its spiritual aspect and reminded of other concepts like mushin and fudoshin, and of an old Zen mondo about "dropping off body and mind," i.e. surrendering your whole self.
The Zen master i study under has been asking me a lot about Kendo and its connections to Zen recently (which i am also researching in connection with my master's thesis - M.A., not Zen master ;)) and he immediately related what i told him of sutemi to the Zen understanding of Buddhist "dana" (giving or generosity) as "True Love" or "Total Surrender" to whatever we happen to be doing.

While the idea of "sutemi" was obviously abused by WWII militants, i believe the concept itself is much older, and still has something to teach us today, despite its potentially fascist associations.

This may be getting a little "out there," but it seems related. The philosopher Slavoj Zizek mentioned this in a recent book.

[...] This is where we find the difference between Zen proper and its Western version: the true greatness of Zen is that it cannot be reduced to an 'inner journey' into one's 'true Self'; the aim of Zen meditation is, on the contrary, a total voiding of the Self, the acceptance that there is no Self, no 'inner truth' to be discovered. This is why the authentic Zen masters are fully justified in interpreting the basic Zen message (liberation lies in losing one's Self, in immediately uniting with the primordial Void) as identical to utter military fidelity, to immediately following orders and performing one's duty without consideration for the Self and its interests. -Slavoj Zizek Welcome to the Desert of the Real p.86.

...sounds like sutemi to me...

[hyaku]

Just saw the thread. That's not "Kendo". Just a damn free for all. Looks like a case of plain animosity. Then again if its his student?

With a strong chudan I have been in that position a million times but I don't dump my opponent by thrusting forward.

Things happens now and again and we have to deal with it. Last time a guy that tried stuff on me he left the dojo backwards through the door (door was closed at the time). He started it, I finished it. But I felt bad about it afterwards.

I could take care of myself well before I started MA but go to the Kendojo to do "Kendo"

In Kendo we try to be "nice". But sadly some dojo's have someone with a the peacock syndrome that we have to deal with.

Admittedly with my guys/girls there is very fine line. Controlled hard bastards but they rarely step over the line.

[hyaku]

P.s.

They do sort of bounce off sometimes.

http://www.bunbun.ne.jp/~sword/gaku.mpg

[DCPan]

Hi Travis,


Originally posted by not-I
Hi David,

This interview (http://www.kendo-world.com/articles/magazine/hanshi_says_(harada)/index.php) with Harada Genji Sensei about sutemi (from the Kendo World website) might shed some more light on the matter.


Thanks for the link...it complimented AlexM's link earlier nicely and actually answered a question I had when reading about Narazaki's men.... :D


Originally posted by not-I
[...] to immediately following orders and performing one's duty without consideration for the Self and its interests. -Slavoj Zizek Welcome to the Desert of the Real p.86.

...sounds like sutemi to me...

So, in your view, what is the difference between mushin and sutemi?

:D

[IZA]

Originally posted by hyaku
P.s.

They do sort of bounce off sometimes.

http://www.bunbun.ne.jp/~sword/gaku.mpg

Men tai atari,Och! was that you Sensei? :)

[not-I]

Originally posted by DCPan

So, in your view, what is the difference between mushin and sutemi?
:D

At the risk of opening a semantic can of worms, as well as entering the kind of intellectualization such concepts consistently defy, here's my take, based on limited research and experience:

Sutemi would firstly be the decision of the ego or mind conscious of itself ("ushin no shin") to abandon fear, hesitation, doubt, etc. by abandoning the body (and, to variable extent, the mind) in committing totally to the chosen attack. In terms of the military metaphor, it is the conscious mind giving itself an order, which the body executes without question.

Yet, judging from Harada Sensei's comments, there are different levels of sutemi, ranging from the beginner's "go-for-broke" attack against a superior opponent, over the more sophisticated "application of principles" of the advanced, to the totally intuitive "flow" of the master (e.g. Ogawa Sensei's men).

This scale would show increasing levels of heijo-shin, and the last would be evidence of "mushin no shin," mind unconscious of itself, or in Zen terms: "the True Self, which is no-self (muga-mushin)." Hence, mushin is the overriding concept/phenomenon, whereas sutemi is both a "technique" to cultivate it, and at the highest level, a functional aspect of mushin.

There are surely different levels of zanshin as well (from post-attack "performance" to an integration in the entire attack from beginning to end).

Fudo-shin, as described e.g. by Takuan Soho, would be almost synonomous with mushin, although still a functional aspect of the latter.

So, David, I've lept in where sempai fear to tread (beginner's sutemi, maybe) ;) And I must stress that I consider these dualistic distinctions to be rather useless to the actual practice of Kendo or Zen, where it's said they must be experiencially applied over long periods of time, rather than speculated about from the comfort of an academic armchair such as mine.

Greetings

[DCPan]

Originally posted by not-I

So, David, I've lept in where sempai fear to tread (beginner's sutemi, maybe) ;) And I must stress that I consider these dualistic distinctions to be rather useless to the actual practice of Kendo or Zen, where it's said they must be experiencially applied over long periods of time, rather than speculated about from the comfort of an academic armchair such as mine.


IMHO, yes and no (re: words in bold) :D

It's like what Bruce Lee and others have said:

Before I practiced the Way, a cloud was just a cloud and a mountain was just a mountain. After I studied the way, a cloud was no longer a cloud, a mountain was no longer a mountain. Now that I understand the Way, a cloud was again just a cloud, a mountain is just a mountain.

People often make the statement regarding making needless dualistic distinctions. At least I hear it a lot :D

However, I rarely hear the corollary to that which is: "Until you learn to make the distinction, you can't forget the distinction".

Or, as my best friend likes to tell me, "Dave...ya gotta have goals...."

FWIW :D

[Charlie Kondek]

Travis! Welcome to e-budo. A martial arts student and a Zen student AND an academic! I hope you continue to contribute around here; look forward to reading more from you.

We really need to start that Takuan thread now...

[not-I]

Originally posted by Charlie Kondek
Travis! Welcome to e-budo.
[...]

Charlie, thank you for your warm welcome. I look forward to continue learning from the great wealth of knowledge and experience here at e-budo. And i'll try my best not to talk out of my hat. ;)

[nicojo]

And i'll try my best not to talk out of my hat.

Doesn't stop me. Hopefully after the idiocies I post some will not ask the same silly questions or say the silly things I do. Preemptive striking.

Guess that's my academic/teaching/learning philosophy...I am comfortable being the sacrificial goat. Some day I may have something intelligent to say. Don't hold yer breath waiting tho.