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meat
1st April 2004, 06:14
I would have posted this in the language section, but the people I hope to reach(ie such as Meik Skoss, Karl Friday, Ellis Amdur et al) would be more likely to see it here. How long does it take for one to become extremely fluent(particularly in the reading side)in Japanese? What is the difference, as far as time and work go, in being able to read manga and newspapers etc as opposed to classical literature and makimono of martial ryu?

Jeff Hamacher
1st April 2004, 06:51
as the saying goes, your mileage will vary, but i'll tell you about my experience and see if that sheds any light on things.

i lived in Japan for nearly seven years. i didn't study the language before i went, but made a point of studying consistently as soon as i arrived. for the first three years, i went to a weekly 3-hour class with a teacher who spoke nothing but Japanese. i made up flash cards to learn kanji and practised with them every day. i studied material from a good textbook every few days. i spoke Japanese at every opportunity (at work, with friends, at the dojo, on the street). i wrote exams to keep myself on a set schedule. i dated and eventually married a Japanese woman.

the result? after a little more than five years in the country, i passed the first level of the Japanese Proficiency Exam (very difficult but not impossible, and certainly not the end of one's Japanese studies). while far from perfect, i can normally pick up a newspaper or magazine and read articles on politics or economics. last year i passed the fourth level of the Kanji Proficiency Exam along with several of my 14-year-old students. they're really good tests to get your kanji and vocabulary knowledge up to speed.

as for older Japanese texts, you have two flavours: transcriptions that are type-set (very challenging) and images or original texts in cursive script (often impossible, even for Japanese people, without a considerable amount of experience). at this point, i can read with some success type-set transcriptions, like my paperback editions of Five Rings or Heihou Kadensho. my copy of Tengu Geijutsuron has images of the original script and i can read maybe every sixth character; i have to rely on the type-set transcription to get anywhere. as with any text in Japanese, there are certain conventions that you have to learn to read anything well, and experience is the only way to improve.

if you have any more specific questions, i'll be happy to answer them as well as i can.

meat
2nd April 2004, 13:59
Thanks for your story Jeff, helps alot. I'm in my last year of Japanese at uni, and while I can definately see a huge amount of progress between now and my first year, I'll pick up a Japanese book or see a newspaper article and be completely dumbfounded, and I think, man, how long is it going to be until I get somewhere close to proficient? Then I see texts(like you noted) that are in cursive format, and I think "People can actually read and understand that???"
I really don't have anything specific to ask, I'm just curious as to people's experiences that have already gone where I'm trying to go. Thanks for sharing.

Cady Goldfield
2nd April 2004, 16:09
Peter, I'm a beginning student in Japanese, but have studied other languages over the years. I can offer some suggestions for language learning in general based on my experiences.

One, is that immersion seems to be the fastest way to gain proficiency in any language. That means throwing yourself into the Japanese-language environment and struggling to tread water, so to speak. I'm trying to get my Japanese fiance to do this as well - speaking only Japanese and forcing me to figure out the meanings and to respond to them as best I can in what little of the language I have. But, he feels sorry for me and ends up reverting to English. Phooey. :p

One of my brothers is a 30-year student of Dr. John Rassias, one of the foremost immersion-learning language methodologists in the US, based at Dartmouth College in NH. My brother has been teaching under Rassias for years, and I've had opportunities to see the method in action. It is highly effective. Based on what I've seen of its results, I'd have to say that immersion seems to be the best way to gain fluency in a relatively short time: Some students are able to gain basic speaking and comprehension skills in 10 days. I believe that, continuing in that method, they can attain fluency in less than 2 years.

Might be worth looking into if you're in a hurry. ;)

ghp
2nd April 2004, 18:56
Peter, Cady wrote
Some students are able to gain basic speaking and comprehension skills in 10 days. I agree with Cady that immersion is the best method to learn a foreign language, however, I must caveat her encouraging quote above.

While it is true there are a few "language genuises" in our midsts, they are (fortunately :) ) a rare breed. What is important to learning foreign languages are your (a) age, and (b) language family.

Linguists tell us that the best age to learn a foreign language at native-level is between two and six years old. If you spoke a foreign language at 6, but then moved on to a different language as your primary/sole language, then you will have an edge -- if you re-learn that language -- over people like me who only learned as an adult. Your pronunciation, etc. will be better than ours.

Thank goodness "native level" is not common. :) The rest of us have to contend with being at some stage of fluency -- or in my case, "influency" (sounds like a deadly condition)

Okay -- so most of us are not in the primary learning window; we're a bit older than six :D The next stumbling block is the "language family." Native-speakers of Indo-European languages can learn other IE-based languages in a relatively "short" time. I think Spanish is the easiest for English speakers, although I personally found German to be "easy" (after all, "house" is "haus"). Conversely, crossing from one language family to another, e.g., from Ural-Altaic (Japanese/Korean) to Indo-European (German/English/Spanish) requires greater effort and time. Remember that the next time you marvel at the English level of Japanese, Fins, Koreans, and Russians -- they go through the same barriers that we face when learning their language.

So ..... how long will it take you to speak/read/write? Your progress will be markedly faster because your university background will have provided a firm foundation in grammar; knowledge of grammar is more important in the long run. In the short run, people who learn on their own while in-country might seem to speak better because they use the language daily; HOWEVER -- most are speaking incorrectly. And, they are not learning construction, conjugation [seen the book 501 Japanese Verbs?? ---- arrrrrrgggggghhhhhh!] However, after a few years, the "grammarian" will outpace those who learn [i]conversational Japanese[i].

Your ability to learn proper, grammatically correct, POLITE Japanese will earn kudos and respect. You might not hear it directly, but believe me, the Japanese would much rather listen to someone with formal training speaking polite Japanese. Many Americans initially want to sound like their Japanese friends and use the peer/subordinate "~da" form; if you fall into this trap you can easily forget how to speak properly. I often hear Japanese of my generation (50s) remark how the current Japanese do not know how to speak properly -- a major set-back when interviewing or taking care of customers. It's even worse when they hear a non-Japanese speaking like that.

If you do have the finances, time, and inclination -- I would suggest you enroll in the Summer Intensive Program held each summer at the Monterey Institute of International Studies (MIIS), in Monterey California. For $1,250 + non-refundable application fee of $50 (plus room & board), you can enter a basic class or intermediate class. Even with university-level language credits under your belt, this 8-week "boot camp" would be truly beneficial. And if you are going on business, MIIS also conducts "Training Abroad" classes and can tailor them to your needs.
http://www.miis.edu/lang-ilp-home.html
I see they now offer a winter intensive language program.)

If you are thinking of a Graduate School after university ..... go to MIIS -- they require you have a foreign language in order to graduate!!

Good luck,
Guy

Cady Goldfield
2nd April 2004, 19:56
Guy,
You forgot to mention the particles ... ARRRRGGGGHHHH!!!

BC
2nd April 2004, 20:03
Or you could try what a recent visiting student did with our dojo over the past year.

Last fall, a young Japanese man showed up at our dojo in Chicago,, wanting to train with us. He was a recent graduate from a Japanese university, and spoke maybe a dozen words in English. Well, he joined the dojo and proceeded to attend class almost every day. Eventually, his English improved enough that we got to know him and learn about why he was in Chicago. Basically, he got hired by a company right out of school, and they wanted him to be part of their "English immersion program." This consisted of sending him to one of the large US cities of his choice where they had offices, paying his room and board, and taking on some sort of project in which to immerse himself and learn English. He would then have to give periodical status reports, and write a comprehensive report at the end of the three month period. Since he had practiced aikido at university, he elected to come to Chicago and join an aikido dojo. We were fortunate enough that he chose ours, due to ours being one of the more traditional aikido dojo in the area. Once we all got to know him, he would join us at the nearby bar after classes, and we would immerse him in our talks. After two months, his English was very good, and by the time he left, you would have thought he had been living in the US for years. Plus, we made another good friend. As fortune would (or wouldn't) have it, he severly split his toe open during class a week before his scheduled departure, and had to delay it for another six weeks. Turned out he didn't want to go back anyway, so he was OK with that. Who would? Basically, he was going to have to go back and work his backside off as a young salaryman, as opposed to getting up in the morning, tour around Chicago during the day, and attend aikido classes at night. Even though he was a shodan, he actually learned quite a bit more from us, as our late Japanese Sensei's style can be different from what he learned in his university club. Before he left for Japan, he vowed to come back to Chicago for vacation next year. A very nice man, and we all miss him.

meat
4th April 2004, 13:44
Thanks for all the great replies, I will definately look into your suggestion Guy, sounds like an excellent idea. Just a question for Jeff, what exactly does the Japanese Proficieny exam do for you with regards to career? I'm doing level 3 this year, and plan on doing level 2 next year.

CKohalyk
4th April 2004, 16:13
Meat,

I have 2 comments. The first is about the 1 kyu: I think it is a pretty valuable thing, and would recommend going for it if you can. 2 kyu is relatively easy to get, from what I hear... but 1kyu will seperate you from the pack. Look at Jeff, he is in a class of his own! ;) (How is Kingston btw m8?)

The other thing is what I consider the most important thing in language learning beyond what Guy posted above, and that is MOTIVATION (by the way, I am a trained psycho:up:-linguist, and what Guy wrote is pretty much bang on. Check out Steven Pinker for more good info on how language works that is fun to read).

I work for a Japanese company. I have never taken the Japanese Language Proficiency Test, but they knew I went to Japanese uni and I did good in my interview so they hired me. I was still nervous about my level, but I was excited to work again, so I tried really hard and my J-level skyrocketed. Then I got complacent, and disillusioned with working for a J-company, and finally decided to leave Japan (Soon I will be living relatively near Jeff..JOY!). That decision was made about 6 months ago, and currently my Japanese hasn't been this bad since my undergrad days.

So as long as you are motivated my friend, you will be reading the Japanese Economist in no time. As for classical Japanese... you gotta be REALLY motivated! :D

Good Luck,

Chad Kohalyk

Jeff Hamacher
5th April 2004, 04:58
Originally posted by CKohalyk
... 1 kyu: I think it is a pretty valuable thing, and would recommend going for it if you can. 2 kyu is relatively easy to get, from what I hear... but 1kyu will seperate you from the pack. Look at Jeff, he is in a class of his own!

aren't i just.;) Kingston and Queen's U are treating me quite well, thanks. experiencing mild end-of-term burn-out, but i'm almost done my work and have the spring to just ... keep researching my thesis topic and prep for two conferences!

having 1st level (a.k.a. ikkyuu) is certainly useful for academic pursuits in Japan, and it really is a kind of basic qualification, i think, for anyone wanting to break into the translation/interpreting game. beyond that, the upper grades of the kanji exams that i mentioned also carry some weight.

the thoughts on immersion and "the critical period" (i.e. learning languages before the age of 12) are worth considering, but one has to be careful about how much stock to put in them. research on some bilingual/immersion programs in schools has discovered that students can end up learning incorrect grammar (their communicative skills are fine, but their foreign language contains what are referred to as fossilized errors). the critical period question as i understand it is pretty much as Guy described it: learning "native-like" pronunciation after you hit adolesence is quite unlikely, and other aspects of extemporaneous speech show little errors in phrasing and so forth. the upside is that adults have a much greater capacity to use conscious learning approaches to speed up their language acquisition process. a little win some, lose some.

gotta go. will post more later if possible.

renfield_kuroda
5th April 2004, 09:36
Methinks this thread might be more suited to Japanese Language instead of Koryu, but my 2 yen:

Whatever your resume says, nothing beats a real-world interview. So just go ahead and put "Fluent in spoken and written Japanese" and who ever wants you will put you in a room with a native speaker.

I've interviewed people with ikkyu who couldn't speak, and people (like me) who've failed ikkyu several times and are just fine in a completely Japanese office.

The PROCESS of getting to where you can pass ikkyu is considerably more valuable than the passing grade itself. But be warned: like all standardized tests, you can study to PASS or you can study to LEARN, and the two are often mutually exclusive.

Regards,
r e n

Jeff Hamacher
5th April 2004, 21:04
the Japanese Proficiency Exams are mostly about testing propositional knowledge, and as Ren points out, this knowledge alone doesn't constitute communicative ability. the other major shortcoming of the Exams is the multiple-choice format with no penalties for incorrect responses. simply put, they aren't an honest reflection even of a candidate's propositional knowledge since some intelligent guessing can net extra marks while bad guessing doesn't cost a thing.

having said that, propositional knowledge does become progressively much more important as one's level of study rises. research i've read suggests, for example, that lexical knowledge (essentially vocabulary) at intermediate to advanced levels of language study can be the make-or-break factor in listening comprehension. many of the more flowery turns of phrase or idioms in Japanese have to be learned by rote slog, whether you're preparing for the Exams or for living and working in Japan.

in short, the Exams are not really tests of communicative ability (apart from the listening comprehension section), and you need to adopt other approaches to improve that skill, but studying to pass the Exams is not, in my opinion, antithetical to studying to learn Japanese for actual communication. as Ren emphasizes, you need to follow a balanced process of language study to get where you want to go.