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Denis Torres
3rd April 2004, 23:56
I would appreciate an explanation of how the prefix "Aiki" changes the philosophy or technique of an art. Example: Aikijujitsu versus Jujitsu. What makes a traditional "grappling/ground" art an "Aiki" art or not an "Aiki" art? The only difference this layman sees is that an "Aiki" art uses less force and perhaps a little more sophisticated technique and, at least in Aikido, some philosophical and spiritual additions.

Perhaps someone can direct me to a site out there with a clear answer to my question.

Walker
4th April 2004, 07:28
http://www.swordforumbugei.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1202

Aiki is just a Japanese word Ñ it doesn't change anything.

Nathan Scott
5th April 2004, 20:06
[Post deleted by user]

stanley neptune
6th April 2004, 22:19
Aikido guys will tell you Aikijujutsu is jujutsu. Jujutsu guys will tell you Aikijujutsu is Aikido. Who do you believe? The answer lies somewhere in between.

Jujutsu is not necessarily a ground art unless you are referring to the Brazilian variety. Which is a fancy form of wrestling with Judo mixed in for good measure.

It's all good. It's all good. Feeling the flow. Doing the bull dance.

Stanley Neptune

glad2bhere
11th April 2004, 19:03
FWIW.

Practitioners of Korean arts use the prefix "hapki-" which approximates the Japanese "aiki-" if only because they share the same Chinese ideograph. I share the following for whatever it may contribute.

The Hapkido arts actually run through a hierachy of three levels.

The yu-sool (J. Ju-jutsu) arts tend to stress physical properties such as weight, leverage, speed and deceleration.

The next step up includes the physical properties and adds neuro-muscular properties including timing, balance, and alignment/misalignment (some would probably add focus and mis-direction). This manipulation of the attackers' neuro-muscular response is identified as hapki-yu-sool (J. Aiki-jujutsu).

The highest level of performance, hapki-sool, (J. Aiki-jutsu) accomplishes it goals by pre-empting the intent of the attacker even as he formulates his intent. You hear a lot about "becoming one with the attacker", yes? If you can control a person by having awareness of what they intend even as it becomes aware to the attacker themselves your response becomes almost effortless as you truely do use the strength of the attacker, themselves, to accomplish your goal.
An even higher aspect of this third realm is the ability of an individual to cause a behavior through the simple power of their personality. This is probably best known in everyday life to LEO-s who are taught "command presence", or a teacher who is able to maintain order in a classroom without so much as raising his voice.

I have no idea if this is what you were looking for, but I throw it out for your consideration.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Rei Ho
19th April 2004, 16:01
Gladtobehere really explained the differences well. I have done more Jujutsu based arts in the last 18 years than the Aiki arts I am now doing. I can feel and see a big difference in the two. In Jujutsu, it seems we pulled or pushed our opponent in different directions in order to unbalance them and then apply a technique. In Aikijujutsu,it seems to use more sweeping motions and redirection. I think both are great. I think Aiki itself carries a separate meaning. Thanks.
Tracy Crocker:cool:

Sam Robinson
19th April 2004, 22:38
Hi,

With all do respect I have to disagree with the contention that so called "aiki" arts are significantly different than jujutsu arts. I'm with Mr Walker here. Aiki is just a word used to describe a set of concepts that are common to one degree or another in almost all classical bujutsu systems. All jujutsu schools just do not call these concepts "aiki". In Shindo Yoshin ryu the utilization of neuro-muscular involuntary reflex and the pre-empting of of an attack was addressed in the joden teaching of the art. I believe we referred to these concepts as myojutsu.

As impressive as aikijujutsu teachings are I have seen virtually the same execution in several authentic jujutsu dojo's. And there's the rub. Most budo parading under the name jujutsu out there is not representative of authentic jujutsu. Most dojo's claiming to teach jujutsu are really teaching some modern forms like self defense judo, Danzan ryu, mediocre Takagi Yoshin ryu left over from the ninja craze or worse.

Before we make generalizations about the significant differences between jujutsu and aikijujutsu lets make sure that the definition of these arts is authoratative. I have not based my definition of aikijujutsu on some invented style of ajj that is bad aikido mixed with karate kicks. Please, lets not promote the same sort of misinformation concerning jujutsu.

Maybe there needs to be a thread discussing wnat constitutes authentic jujutsu as opposed to the McDojo jujutsu taught in every karate school around.

The thread on Bugei's forum that Mr Walker referenced with a link is excellent but it only covers the differences between aikido and aikijujutsu. Maybe we should ask Threadgill sensei to write a similar post on jujusu vs aikijujutsu. It might be short however since he'd probably say they are the same thing.

BTW...I went and visited Threadghill sensei's Soryushin Dojo recently. All I can say is "whoa"!

Richard Elias
20th April 2004, 00:15
Having studied Shidare Yanagi ryu quite extensively, and being a keppan student of Shindo Yoshin ryu under Toby Threadgill, I would say that Aikijujutsu is jujutsu (it's got jujutsu right in the name), and that the only real difference is the focus on the more esoteric teachings and the place they have within the art.

In an art like Shindo Yoshin ryu the myojutsu (the "aiki" portion of the curriculum) is not the major focus of the art, but more of a study in advanced principles and their applications. Conversly, in an art like Yanagi ryu the study and practice of such principles is more widely spread throughout the art.

They both have much in common and in the end the advanced students reach much the same level of ability and expertice.
That's been my experience at any rate.

Dale Seago
20th April 2004, 00:30
Originally posted by Walker
http://www.swordforumbugei.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1202

Aiki is just a Japanese word Ñ it doesn't change anything.

The thread reminded me of something I've heard Donald Angier (whom I've known for about 16 years) give as the most humorously "down to earth" description of "aiki" I've ever heard: "Aiki is all the stuff you can't do to a piece of furniture".

Perhaps a bit overstated, but it gets his point across: You can use physics and various mechanical principles (leverage, etc.) to affect an inanimate object, and he compares that to jujutsu. He sees aiki as the stuff you do to affect another person's mind and perceptions, fool his senses in various ways, etc.


Originally posted by Sam Robinson
Aiki is just a word used to describe a set of concepts that are common to one degree or another in almost all classical bujutsu systems. All jujutsu schools just do not call these concepts "aiki".

I've seen much more aiki, in Angier sensei's use of the term, in the Takagi Yoshin ryu my teacher (Masaaki Hatsumi) was teaching throughout 2002 (jutaijutsu was the training focus that year) than in Aikido; yet I never heard the term used once.

Rei Ho
20th April 2004, 02:26
Hello,
I just wanted to make a statement about this thread. This is what I call quality BUDO. People expressing opinions about matters and not attacking each other. You don't have to agree and each person has opinions from their experience, but in turn you learn from others experiences. Thanks for geing polite. Nathan, thanks for being a good moderator since I have been involved in the Aikijujutsu site. We need to meet sometime and train and exchange ideas about the heart of Aikijujutsu. Thanks everyone.
Tracy Crocker:cool: