Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu Kodokai

[R_Garrelts]

Hi everyone,

A while back I bought a tape from Aikido Journal that consists of demonstrations given by various Daito-Ryu branches on the occasion of the fiftieth anniversary of Takeda Sokaku’s death. All in all, I thought it was an interesting tape, but one demonstration in particular left me a little incredulous.

Inoue Yusuke of the Kodokai is seen demonstrating seven techniques, three of which leave his ukes completely immobilized (and in some apparent pain) until someone effectively “disengages” their position, at which point they quickly return to their feet, unharmed by the whole ordeal. Although I have seen other sorts of “no hands” pinning techniques from other branches of Daito-ryu (and a couple other arts, as well), these involved basically locking the uke’s joints at the end of the range of motion and then using knees or feet to keep them in that position. (no mystery there) Inoue, on the other hand, was apparently able to “freeze” his uke into position without such obvious locking. Hence my confusion.

The final technique was especially unusual:

Inoue sequentially thwarts five opponents kneeling on his arms, legs, and stomach. As he does so, each uke lets out a grunt, and then collapses to the floor, apparently unable to move (despite the fact that no-one is holding them down) until Inoue physically moves them from their “frozen” position. In fact, another man (also from the Kodokai), has to assist Inoue in freeing two ukes from their cramped postures.

Having no experience with Inoue or the Kodokai, I’m really not sure what to make of this demonstration. Does anyone on this board have any first hand knowledge of these sorts of techniques? What is the basic rationale behind this sort of thing?

Regards,

Richard

[don]

Originally posted by R_Garrelts
....one demonstration in particular left me a little incredulous.

Inoue Yusuke of the Kodokai

A fellow named Amatsu (http://www.ne.jp/asahi/amatsu/daito-ryu/) has written quite directly on this topic (although you'll have to do a search for the article, it's not on the link site), and he maintains that this sort of thing was a carnival trick--literally--for entertainment purposes. Some sources relate that Takeda Sokaku spent time with carnivals doing Budo for entertainment. You see Kawabe do similar things on the same tape. Caveat emptor, or in web speak, YMMV.

[Cady Goldfield]

What one sees with one's eyes seldom if ever tells the whole story. There are indeed pins that can immobilize you with one finger. They can be done with pain and without - it still works to immobilize. It's based soundly in body mechanics.

Read Stanley Pranin's book, "Aikijujutsu" (Interviews with the Daito-ryu Masters) and get a legitimate perspective of what genuine Daito-ryu aikijujutsu is about.

[Nathan Scott]

What Amatsu Sensei wrote about in his article was that the multi-person attacks (several people grab one person at the same time, and the victim is able to escape and pin them all) seen in demonstrations were not "real" techniques, but sensationalism to impress the audience. That is his opinion, and perhaps the opinion of others, but I don't remember him saying the same thing about the "cramping" element employed by some instructors.

From what I understand, what you observed in the demo is what at least a couple of the orthodox "aiki" branches of Daito-ryu consider to be very high level applications of aiki. As such, I don't think you will be able to find out much about it from members of the art. But as Cady said, you should read the interview with Inoue Yusuke in Stan's CWDRM book. There is mention of what it felt like to receive techniques from his teacher, Horikawa Kodo Meijin. Pretty interesting.

It's easy to discount things you see as BS when you haven't felt it before. In many if not most cases, discounting things that look like BS is a good rule of thumb. But there are many in the aiki branches of DR who insist that these techniques are real, so take it for what it's worth. If you REALLY want to know, join the Kodokai and find out for yourself one day! (shrug)

Regards,

[R_Garrelts]

Thank you all for the replies,

I would tend to agree with what Amatsu says in his article about multiple opponents in general (not that my opinion matters much). What really peaked my curiosity, though, was the “cramping effect” of Inoue’s techniques. Just to clarify, I am not really approaching this from the standpoint of whether or not it will work in a “real” fight. I am just curious about the feasibility of doing it at all. Regardless of whether or not such a thing is doable under the tremendous stress that can be experienced in a life and death situation, it possibly represents some remarkable knowledge about the workings of the human body and that is what interests me.

Having said that, I do also have to admit some reservations. It is very easy to watch something like this and quickly dismiss it as BS, I agree. Additionally, that Daito-Ryu practitioners consider these techniques to be sound mechanics is hardly convincing in my book. After all, if it really is just a matter of timing, position, application of force, and some psychology, one might expect (with all the time they spend grappling with each other) a few football players, Greco-Roman wrestlers, sumo-tori, or judoka to have—maybe just by chance—gotten all the variables right and left their opponent lying crumpled up on the mat, unable to move following only a light touch. (The same could be said of kyusho-jutsu guys that knock people out with strikes to the forearm and such. You’d think there would be a lot more unexplained knockouts in football.:D)

Anyway, for me this is much more of an academic curiosity about what the human body is (and is not) capable of. I'm not asking anyone to spill the beans about any great Daito-Ryu secrets. I was just curious as to whether or not anyone on this board has had it done to them.

I will be spending most of this summer in Richland, Washington doing research on the detection of gravitational waves (as part of the LIGO project), and so I hope to be able to meet up with Desmond Harpster of the Roppokai during that time. I'm not sure if he does this sort of thing, though.

If anyone has more information, I'd really appreciate it.

Thanks again.

Regards,

Richard

[Cady Goldfield]

I agree that the multiple-attacker stuff is not an accurate depiction of any art. Much of that stuff is done for "crowd pleaser" effect and showmanship, and unfortunately that distracts the mind away from the art itself.

Fact is, though, one-on-one, the principles and their expression via technique are genuine. Feeling waza firsthand is the only way to really be convinced. If you are ever fortunate enough to have an opportunity to join and train with such a group, go for it. Really.

[R_Garrelts]

A Japanese web search turned up this:

http://www.hikarido.com/hikaridonowaza.htm

Although these clips don't show quite the same effect as Inoue's, he claims to have been a longterm student of Horikawa Kodo. On the other hand, a search of this site turned up references to this group and sun-worshipping(?!) of all things. I'm sure they all claim it's real though.

Some more dramatic looking results:

http://budovideos.com/shop/files/images/detailed/d_646.jpg http://www.budovideos.com/images/screengrabs/926/926-1.jpg http://www.budovideos.com/images/screengrabs/925/925-1.jpg
http://www2.odn.ne.jp/master-k/se_osa1.jpg

[chrismoses]

Pretty standard Aiki waza if you ask me. I haven't seen the Daito-Ryu video in question, I do have another Daito Ryu demonstration video and didn't notice anything really outlandish going on. The videos and pictures in the last post are pretty common stuff (in my experience) and I would be inclined to believe them as aiki-waza, meaning: demonstrations of specific principles rather than practical self defense movements. Various teachers in Aikido can be seen doing most of these on a regular basis, sometimes they actually know how to do it and it works, other times they and their uke know what it's supposed to look like so they tank. The fact that sometimes in the linked videos, the uke stay 'stuck' in position looks to me to be simply for the sake of clarity. Plus if you're really tangled up with a lot of people it can take a while to figure out who needs to move first in order to free the bunch. Gozo Shioda was known to do several of these kinds of demonstrations, particularly the third video. If you have "Dynamic Aikido" check out page 20 (and if you don't, head over to amazon.com (http://www.amazon.com) and search for it). You can "look inside the book" enough to see p.20 and the example I'm talking about. I am curious to see the Daito Ryu video you mention however to see the pins in question.

[Cady Goldfield]

Originally posted by chrismoses
The fact that sometimes in the linked videos, the uke stay 'stuck' in position looks to me to be simply for the sake of clarity.

In real deal AJJ, uke really is "stuck" in position. It's a mechanical process of locking up the body so he can't move. Done right, tori/nage can hold uke in place with a single finger.

[chrismoses]

Cady, yeah I know, I was referring specifically to the pauses in the videos after tori has walked away and is no longer applying any pressure. In some of the videos there appears to be a pause where uke(s) don't seem to move at all even after even the slightest contact has ceased. I assumed this was the particularly confusing part that the original poster was referring to in his first post.

[R_Garrelts]

Well, I just posted the pics and link because Nishikido also trained with Horikawa. I agree that the pauses in the clips were probably just for illustrative purposes. I would have thought that the pauses in the Aikido Journal vid were for the same reason, but, like I said in the original post, an assitant actually helps a couple of the uke get out of their cramped positions in the final technique. Again, there was no obvious obvious locking of joints at the end of their range of motion. In fact, one of the uke can be seen very clearly lying on his side with both of his hands next to his ear. Now, this is hardly an awkward position to be in, but he nevertheless appears unable to move (and in a great amount of tension--hence the mention of the "cramping" effect) until another member of the Kodokai physically moves him from this position. Nishikido's uke, on the other hand, appear to be pretty relaxed as Nishikido backs away--for that reason I would agree that there wasn't any similar "cramping" effect being demonstrated there. I just found the links on the net and thought somebody might be interested in seeing them.

[Carlos Estrella]

I can't vouch for Inoue Shihan's techniques because I haven't felt them. I HAVE felt those of a senior Kodokai student and instructor, and I'm STILL mystified concerning what on camera looks like as much pressure as it takes to slice birthday cake locking my body up so bad I couldn't breathe.

Just to clarify something, I went to the seminar as a guest, invited by my own instructor and somewhat of a skeptic <sp?>. I handled the ikkajo, nikajo and other techniques well (painful but reproducable), but when my body's arched backwards, I'm on my tippie toes and my breathing is labored from something other than pain... AND the guy doing it to me is old enough to be my grandfather, there's something to it.

My faith precludes alot of the mysticism behind the martial arts, so I HAVE to take some things with a grain of salt. However, Cady, Nathan and others on this forum know who I am talking about and if HE is fake, than EVERYONE is. He's THAT honorable AND that good. If the student is that good, WOW... what is the headmaster of the school like?

Don't know if that helped or hurt the discussion, but there it is.

Regards,

Carlos

[don]

Originally posted by Carlos Estrella
...when my body's arched backwards, I'm on my tippie toes and my breathing is labored from something other than pain...

OBI OTOSHI?
SE KUJIKI?
SHIHO NAGE?
AIKI NAGE?

Do you recall the technique?

[Arman]

Don,

I think they are referring to the techniques of some Daito ryu groups whereby the nage moves his wrist and body in such a way that the uke who is holding on reacts as if he has received an electric shock, what with the extreme arched back resulting from nothing visibly more than a flick of the wrist. Similarly, you will see some video footage of the nage flinging four or five guys, with only one guy holding on to nage, and the other four bracing uke from behind.

I've seen videos of it, I've seen pictures of it, but I've never experienced it first hand, so I reserve my judgment until the day I do feel it first hand. That being said, I've never seen anyone in our school do anything remotely like that.

FWIW,
Best regards,
Arman Partamian

[Carlos Estrella]

I unfortunately don't remember the technique name, but let me attempt to describe it:

- I'd grabbed with the right hand to his right.
- He "energized" his hand (best term I can think of right now), curving the edge of the hand toward me.

I can't remember exactly what happened next, but I do recall my arm, then both of my arms going up over my head and me arching backwards but not being able to fall ( I think I was "reaching" for something, but I couldn't tell you what). I alao remember looking at his gi top while he was talking in a combination of broken English and Japanese but for the life of me I can't remember exactly what he said in English. My chest hurt but strangely, I don't remember my back bothering me though I had to look like the McDonald's golden arches.

Sorry I can't remember more - I don't normally practice aiki arts (due to work and lack of time - seminars are my friend <g>).

Carlos

[Nathan Scott]

We talked about Nishikido previously in this thread:

Earliest students of Horikawa Kodo and Takuma Hisa (http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18812)

I've seen three videos that Nishikido has published, and to be frank, the guy is a fruit cake.

Although some of the techniques and reactions appear similar to Daito-ryu aiki techniques I've seen, the students are clearly falling for him, and he is clearly not doing anything to them - in at least most the techniques. He appears to have had some private lessons from Horikawa Sensei, but it is very unclear how much actual mat time he spent over that "15 years" under Horikawa Kodo. He is not part of the Kodokai, and I've yet to see any references to any ranks issued to him. In my opinion, don't waste your money on his stuff.

As far as believing and speculating on freezing/cramping techniques, I say again - join a dojo and find out for yourself - the hard way! :D

[Cady Goldfield]

Originally posted by Nathan Scott
As far as believing and speculating on freezing/cramping techniques, I say again - join a dojo and find out for yourself - the hard way! :D

Amen. ;)

[chris davis 200]

Thankyou very much for the interesting Pictures.

cheers
Chris

[thomasf5]

haven't seen the demo inquestion, but have Okamoto Sensei's tape off of AikiJournal where he demo's something similar. Having been to seminars with Okamoto Sensei, I am VERY convinced that his high level aiki in demonstrating these principles do most certainly work, and are not mental, unless you are referring to the perception of pain in the brain. Sensei will be in Oregon hopefully in August, and you are cordially invited to feel it for yourself. I guarantee he'll make you believe...

Mark F.

[Kendoguy9]

Hello all,

I don't know if this is news to anyone but it seems the Kodokai has a web site. I don't know if it's official or not but it looks really nice. Here's the link: http://www.ne.jp/asahi/daito-ryu/kodokai/kanban.html
I think there is a link to the main dojo page and one to the Tokyo dojo page. I can't read Japanese but the site looks very nice.

Enjoy,

[kenkyusha]

Thank you for the heads-up (it is a bit of a surprise to see a site given how conservative the organization is...).

Be well,
Jigme

[Nathan Scott]

I just came across an interesting bit of trivia:

Horikawa Sensei was conferred the title of "Eisei Meijin" ("Immortal Master") in 1974. The proposal was spearheaded by former Chief Justice of the Japanese Supreme Court, Ishida Kazuto, and additionally signed off on by seven other prominent dignitaries.

I was just flipping through "The Sword of No-Sword" by John Stevens, which is about the famous Meiji period swordsman Yamaoka Tesshu. It states the following (paraphrased and summarized):

Tesshu studied primarily two branches of Itto-ryu, then founded his own branch called "Itto Shoden Muto-ryu" (The No-Sword Tradition of the Correct Transmission of Ito Ittosai). Kagawa Zenjiro received Menkyo Kaiden from Tesshu and was given succession of the art. Kagawa's top disciple was a swordsman named Ishikawa Ryuzo, who in turn instructed the three top Itto Shoden Muto-ryu exponents of the twentieth century. One of these three turns out to have been Chief Justice Ishida Kazuto. Another of the three, Murakami Yasumasa, is the only survivor, and has succeeded as the current headmaster. Murakami credits Ishida Kazuto as his teacher.

So apparently Ishida Kazuto was quite a serious and experienced swordsman, which explains his interest in recognizing others he respected in martial arts.

Don't know if anyone else found it interesting, but I thought I'd throw it up here.

Regards,

[Hissho]

It is interesting, Nathan.

But now watch for the proliferation of mutual conference of the "Japanese recognized Immortal Master" rank in sokey dokey circles... :laugh:

[Nathan Scott]

As a follow-up to my last post, I've since come across Ishida's name several times, including in a link to a 2007 kendo interview of Morishima Tateo Sensei:

http://kenshi247.net/blog/2011/03/30/pursuing-the-spirit-and-modern-kendo-part-5/

Apparently Ishida was quite a senior and well known martial artist:

- 5th headmaster of Itto shoden muto-ryu hyoho (Yamaoka Tesshu’s line)
- 18th headmaster of Hozoin-ryu Takada-ha sojutsu
- Menkyo Kaiden of Ono-ha itto-ryu under 16th headmaster Sasamori Junzo
- 2nd President of the Zen Nihon Kendo Renmei

There is still a record of Ishida's name, along with some other well known kendo-ka, in one of Sasamori Junzo's student enrollment books (monjincho). It shows Ishida becoming his student on December 1st, 1940.

This explains why Ishida felt qualified to evaluate the level of Kodo's ability, and was able to gather other famous people to endorse the Meijin award. Up until now I've only read about how Ishida was a former Chief Justice, but nothing about his high positions in several well respected martial arts.