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Trell
24th October 2000, 02:52
I have found a few pages that were discussing Aiki and shinto, and that shinto was based upon aiki principles. I was wondering if there is any connection between the two. I have a web page that had some info on them, if anyone wants to check it out.

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/8871/aiki.htm



Kevin Canali

Brently Keen
24th October 2000, 05:42
The whole website in question as well as the premise on that page is pure nonsense, IMHO.

Don't believe everything you read out there, folks.

Brently Keen

Nathan Scott
24th October 2000, 20:53
Mr. Canali,

The page you posted is part of a web page by John J. Williams of Saigo-ha Daito ryu up in Canada, who's credentials (as listed on his extensive geocities page) are as follows:

(Doctorate of Divinity)
Legally Ordained Baptist Minister
Founder Logitarian Christianity
High Priest of the Interi Shinto Sect.
Inheritor of Saigo Ha Takeda Ryu ( Daito-Ryu )
9th dan - Daito-Ryu 10th Dan Shito-Ryu Karate Do
10th Dan Shinto-Ryu Aiki Bujutsu
7th Dan Kuniba Ha Shito-Ryu Karate Do (FAJKO)
3rd Dan Kodokan Judo
Member World Head Founders Council
Inducted World Head founders Council Hall Of Fame
World Record Holder for breaking untreated ice with bare knuckle punch
Judo, Karate and Kickboxing Champion
Canadan Weighlifting Record Holder
Began martial arts training in 1947
Golden Gloves Boxer
Former Police Officer
Certified Police Instructor
Founder Nation Of Acadian Metis (Indian Movement)
Native American Activist
Eastern Woodland Indian

**

That's a pretty unbelievable list of credentials, eh?

Anyway, research instructors carefully, and try to cross reference things like this information on a Shinto/Aiki connection before adding them to your notebook.

Not the first time Mr. John J. Williams' name has made it on this forum...

Hope this helps,

MarkF
26th October 2000, 10:01
The last time (a few months ago) I ran into a John Williams site, he was still pedaling his grandiose tapes, claiming to make a daito ryu aikijujutsu master out of anyone, by purchasing said tapes. And they have enormous price tags.

One other such practitioner of aikibujutsu told me in email what Brently is holding back.

Don't hold it in, Brently. Sometimes you are far too kind.:D

Mark

glad2bhere
26th October 2000, 14:50
Dear Kevin:

To answer your original question there are relationships among various Japanese arts and Shinto which have been the source for quite a few spirited discussions on this and other Nets. However, the particular source you cited ain't one of them. If you are interested, AIKIDO JOURNAL.com has one or two strings right now regarding Shinto in its "philosopy" category, FWIW.

Best Wishes,
Bruce W Sims

Trell
27th October 2000, 06:03
I had come into a few pages not just this Williams freak, but unfortunatly the only one I could readily find at that time was his. I appologise for not fully investigating the link, but was merely curious about shinto connections, as i was interested in the religion. I thank you Bruce for the info and am going to go to the site and read up about it. I promise I will do some more investigating before I post here, just got excited and lost the url of the real pages I found out there.


Kevin Canali

MarkF
27th October 2000, 09:10
Hi, Kevin,
You can always investigate here. Most are quite helpful and are glad to help, so don't think you can't post your "wonderings." Williams, as Nathan said, just struck a nerve so don't worry about it. Ask away.:look:

Mark

Nathan Scott
27th October 2000, 18:42
Yeah, what Mark said. :)

I was basically trying to not say anything bad about Mr. Williams in my response (which wasn't easy), but feel free to post (tactfully) any Aikijujutsu related questions here.

Sometimes you need to look between the lines when discussing people publicly.

Regards,

Brently Keen
28th October 2000, 05:27
Mark F,

:D Chuckle, chuckle. Snort! Hmmm. Heh heh heheheh! W'wh'who oooh wh'wh'whoah hahahahahaha ha ha hack hmph! Hehehehe aaachk, aah ah, cough, whoof! Wha haha hahaha haha hee hawhaw haw, hooowie, smooowie woo! :D

:D LOLOLOLOL!!!!!

Nope, you're right. I can't hold it all in, I'm laughing so hard, my stomach's all broken up.

But seriously, if anyone would like to send me some video of this Grand Master, World Head Founders Hall of Famer in action, I'll trade you any tape of authentic Daito-ryu or other koryu kenjutsu I have in my library. I'd like to add the Native American, Shinto-Baptist, High-Logitarian, Soke-10th dan Priest to the comedy section of my video library. Just email me.

Brently Keen

Neil Yamamoto
28th October 2000, 08:49
Perhaps I shouldn't post this.

Maybe I should.

It is late Friday night and I just came home from a friend's bar and had 3 Jameson's 1780 Irish whiskies.

What the smeg...

I have read the stuff in the site a few times. It is very interesting ( as in the Artie Williams Laugh In German solider peering through bushes "very interesting")

IMHO, Mr Williams has much in common with most of the exagerations claimed for hapkido. A very active imagination. While I think hapkido is a good martial art, I think most of the claims made degrade the art. This whole Saigo ha claim I believe is false and impact Daito Ryu in the same fashion. I am willing to be proved wrong. I think I have a long wait to be proved wrong.

Nathan, If I am too blunt, please feel free to delete me on this. For some reason, I feel possesed by a tengu and my fingers are not in complete control of what I type. Perhaps I am being possesed by Toby.

glad2bhere
30th October 2000, 13:45
Dear Neil:

Thanks for your thoughts --- alcohol-induced or otherwise.

Hapkido, indeed, is in a lot of trouble, and individuals such as the one cited are not helping things. I have some strong feelings about this topic, but it seems as though the overall tendency in this art is to follow the pattern of Nin-jitsu, and we all know where THAT has gone. For every individual who is working hard to maintain high standards, authentic curriculum and sound business principles (where they apply) there seem to be dozens of Bozos who trade in the fantasyland version of this art. In such a fantasyland one is exposed to information but does not study it, wears a uniform but avoids getting it dirty, and learns technique without learning breakfalls. In short, the illusion of gain without the reality of pain. The original "something for nothing". Needless to say, this is not an aspect of my art that I am very proud of.

I hope people will continue to question individuals who operate under the aegis of teaching Hapkido and press them to authenticate or at least validate their credentials to teach.

Best Wishes,

Bruce W Sims
http://www.midwesthapkido.com

Nathan Scott
30th October 2000, 18:20
Good points Neil.

The Saigo-ha is interesting, because on one hand there is a slim chance that their lineage is ligit. But since they use assumptions and unvarifiable claims to support their position, it does not feel very believable.

But more importantly, I think that the ligit experienced Daito ryu exponents might be evaluating it from another perspective as well: that of technique and theory.

Saigo-ha appears to me to use very Aikido-like techniques from standing, and the DR characteristic complicated limb pins using the legs to secure uke. These methods could have been adapted from text published privately by the Takumakai, which has some similar techniques, or any other number of sources. The Saigo-ha has several younger instructors who publish quite a few books (in Japanese) teaching these techniques and theory openly, which is also a little strange.

From what little I've seen of Saigo-ha, I can't say that the level of their performance has overwhelmed me, either.

Historically it was my understanding that Tanomo Saigo (of whom they credit their transmission) had taught/known "oshikiuchi", which I believe to be different than this kind of technique.

Anyway, while the Saigo-ha claim is possible, their actions and methods do not appear to corraborate their claims from my limited point of view.

Regards,

Neil Yamamoto
30th October 2000, 20:58
Hi Bruce and Nathan,

After reading what I posted in the light of soberity, I actually made sense.

I have no problem with what this group teaches, free world and all that. What I do disagree with is how they try and present their lineage to claim Daito ryu lineage. As to skill level,I have yet to see anything in the Saigo-ha that impresses me as being of any high level of skill. Granted, it has only been through books and a brief video clip, but I have yet to see anything that shows anything beyond basic skills that would be expected in a shodan-nidan level.

As to what they teach, you hit it on the head with my thoughts, kind of a cocktail of martial arts. One measure of aikido, one measure of Takumakai daito ryu, add a hint of generic jujutsu, shake well serve with Japanese culture to complement the flavor of the cocktail.

Wanna go to Canada anyone? Play tourist and drop by a dojo or two to see what is really going on?

Neil

31st October 2000, 15:28
Hi guys,


Seen it. Bwaaaa haaaa haaaa .... snort!

I especially like the way Dr Priest Chief John Williams struts around the dojo with a red & white striped belt on but NEVER actually steps on the mat. Never!

You could get hurt out there!

Neil, I just wanted to taste some whisky so I only possessed you for a minute or so. :)

Tobs

Brently Keen
1st November 2000, 05:29
Folks lets not confuse the Saigo-ha Daito-ryu group in Japan that Stanley spoke out against. Yes the ones that put out all those Daito-ryu Aikibujutsu A-Z videos and books, and the website in question here. Soke Grand Poohbah Dr. John J. Williams, who also uses the name Saigo-ha among many others.

There is very little chance (I'd say none) that the Japanese Saigo-ha group is legit. The guy might be a good martial artist (jujutsu/aikido) though. I know people who've trained with him some say he's very good, but his story is full of holes - it's not just a matter of no documents to prove his claims, it's a matter of one day saying one thing and several times later changing that story. It seems to me that he may have a lot of aikido experience combined with some jujutsu, I've even heard that he attended some of Tokimune's seminars and/or learned briefly from someone in the Takumakai.

The Canadian on the otherhand is not even worth mentioning further.

Brently Keen

Nathan Scott
9th May 2001, 01:30
I was just flipping through Mr. Williams page, and came across a page on one of his 100 secret principles - triangulation:

http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/4856/tringulate.html

He states:

"TRIANGULATION is a trademark of the TAKEDA-RYU/DAITO-RYU AIKI BUDO/AIKIJUJUTSU system! It is based on scientific studies carried-out over hundreds of years of martial arts training!

The SAIGO-HA TAKEDA-RYU(DAITO-RYU), under Dr. John J. Williams, has done extensive research on TRIANGULATION (as well as all the 100 principles) and they prepared actual force & vector charts on the TRIANGULATION studies!

His graphics explaining "his" triangulation are useless, and the definition of the triangulation theory sounds a bit off. Funny that this principle has been passed down for 100's of years, but there is no Japanese name for this principle (which there is).

The only time I've heard the term "triangulation" used has been by either Don Angier sensei himself, who seems to have coined the English term, or by others who rightfully credit Angier sensei as their source for choice of terminology.

Zoinks. I would have loved to have seen the the extensive testing Dr. John did with the pullies and ropes.

Oh, heres some more bloops and blunders:

"In traditional Daito-Ryu, this is accomplished through a pilgrimage of challenges known as " shugyu " [I wonder if he means "shugyo"?]

"The most important principal for executing kuzushu is called "triangulation" ["kuzushi"?]

"AIKI does not have to only create the oppertunity to create KAZUSHI for throws & take-downs ! It can create kazushi for all the techniques taught in the system.(including atemi-wasa and gaishi-wasa)" [I thought I was a sloppy speller...]


Regards,

matthew kelly
9th May 2001, 04:49
i hope i'm not out of place in posting this little tidbit - i'm definitely not aikidoka - but has anyone looked into what the word "Saigo" means? it means "the end", "at last", or "at the moment of death".

i found the website while looking through different sites for interpretations of the word "saigomade" and was a little... shocked. i don't know a lot about aikido, but the ryu-ha keizu presented was a bit questionable. later i read on aikidojournal.com that someone very high up in aikido said that this Saigo-ha was indeed very loosely - if at all - connected with the traditions they claim to teach.

i'd stay away from these guys.

Paul Mathews
9th May 2001, 17:03
Originally posted by Brently Keen


But seriously, if anyone would like to send me some video of this Grand Master, World Head Founders Hall of Famer in action, I'll trade you any tape of authentic Daito-ryu or other koryu kenjutsu I have in my library. I'd like to add the Native American, Shinto-Baptist, High-Logitarian, Soke-10th dan Priest to the comedy section of my video library. Just email me.

Brently Keen

I really wish I could accomodate your Mr. Keen. Unfortunately, the last time I looked for my vintage (1984) homemade video of Mr. Williams I couldn't find it. No doubt it was misplaced during our last move. It truly is a classic. Should I manage to find it I will gladly dub you a copy.

Nathan Scott
11th July 2003, 01:35
Here is another page for this group. I really don't understand how they manage to attract students:

http://juliancollege.com/daito1.html

"Dr. John J. Williams, the current headmaster of the Saigo-Ha Daito-Ryu Shintokai Branch..."

Now it's a "Shintokai"? What next?

"(and some of this information might be different than what was told to other Daito-Ryu headmasters by their teacher, but, since there are no written records to prove or disprove this interpretation, it is as valid and trustworthy as any other account being shared by other Daito-Ryu leaders.)"

I would tend to disagree with this! ;)

Be sure not to miss the link to the main pages:

http://juliancollege.com/daito2.html

Looks like they fixed some of the spelling mistakes that I was laughing about previously. I reckon that will help to their legitimacy.

Oh, here is an interesting explanation of "the unbendable arm" gag:


Take the popular "unbendable arm" as an example: The triceps muscle is located at the rear of the upper arm, it is attatched to the rear shoulder and at the elbow, it does one thing, it straighten's the arm to lockout, it's pulling power goes from 10lbs at it's full entention, to as much as 1000 at it's full contration, and the "secret", if you want to call it that, is that the person extends his arm to allow only about a 10% bend in the arm, where the force to prevent bending the arm is over 700 lbs, far more than you can generate by pulling down, and far enough to support your mere 200 lbs of bodyweight, it is no more complicated than that...

Very revealing analysis.

BTW, they can be heckled... I mean, emailed at: saigoha@hotmail.com

If your name is listed in their "links" page, this might be another good reason to email them:

http://juliancollege.com/links.html

Here is another good translation of the Takeda "yotsu-bishi" (4-diamond) mon:

"The clan of Daito-Ruy is the four rice paddies"

4 diamond shaped rice paddies?!? Yuck yuck yuck...

In case anyone was wondering, their new international website is lumped in with the "Julian College Arts & Sciences" (JCAS), a "non-profit theological college". Anyone want to guess who the Dean of this college is?

http://juliancollege.com/dean.html

Give yourself about a day to go through these frightening pages.


These programs offer general certification . Currently, none of these are degree programs pending approval of the New Brunswixk Department of post secondary Education. Contact the education department at 506-388-1770 for specific information about others, including elementary, middle school and all-level.

This private "college" is apparently going official this September. Come on people - can't Canada just kick this guy out of the country or something?

More information can be obtained by emailing: info@juliancollege.com

:)

Special thanks to "Steve" (Saigo-ha Shintokai webmaster) for leaving this link in our Shinkendo guestbook. I wouldn't have found this page without you:

http://two.guestbook.de/gb.cgi?gid=78502

zoinks,

Joseph Svinth
11th July 2003, 03:21
Nathan --

The Gracies also talk about using triangles, and so far as I know, it's the same principle, just focused on rolling. Some arnis systems also use the term, just focused on stick work. Now, I see no reason to doubt that in Aiki land, the concept is probably most commonly learned via the conduit of Don Angier. Nonetheless, other folks have arrived arrived at the same concept, probably independently.

In this particular case, an underlying problem appears to be one Bruce discussed a while back -- when is attribution footnoting, when is it an appeal to authority, and when is it self-inflation? Probably, as Meik Skoss likes to say, it needs to be evaluated case-by-case.

MarkF
11th July 2003, 15:45
I don't think I am going to spend 24 hrs. on this web site (well, I probably have all ready, but days have become too precious of late) but I found this interesting:


To given an example of just how scientific the old masters were you will find in the Takeda-Ryu scrolls ( as well as in other arts such as Kito-Ryu, and Judo) that they always stress that if you want to THROW a person, you must always make sure your belt (obi ) is located BELOW his belt when you position yourself for a throw (and as you know ! all martial artists wear their belts around the waist at roughly 3 inches below the naval.)

(Emphasis mine)

I got the impression that all martial artists wear the belt around the waist and three inches below the naval starting at about age 40 to 45 and up. I think Don Angier wears his belt there, as do I and a bunch of other middle age folks I know, and according to pictures of SokeDocPriest Williams, that is exactly where his is, too. The stuff about judo and kito-ryu, well, the funny thing is, I just thought of a guy about 6'5" throwing with uki goshi against a smaller fo' and that wasn't the picture I had.

The quote above definitely proves it to me. He is mathematically and physically, an obtuse triangle.:)


Mark

INFINOO
12th July 2003, 02:58
Has anyone been on the mat or trained with Mr.Williams or his son?. Perhaps someone in boston? I would also be interested in comments about his video series. I like the part about not selling the tapes out of order. What a great idea:rolleyes:. And for only 60 US a crack. Im going to get right saving to buy the whole set. YA right. Im not going to pile on about this web site. I will say that the calgary address that was on the site a couple of years ago was bogus, or maby he just moved and didnt up date the site.


The only legitimacy I care about is "does it work" And "can you do it". The rest is just hype.

Nathan Scott
14th July 2003, 18:52
To me, the hype is the point. If he could do it, he wouldn't have to make up so much ridiculous BS on his website. If you want to invest scratch on videos created by someone who made up their own system, regardless of what it really is, then I'd say you have a point. But if you think you are learning what he is promoting on his web site, then you are wasting your money.

There are a lot of guys who figure out how to survive on the streets, which is commendable, but I wouldn't waste money buying instructional tapes from them. ;)

Regards,

INFINOO
15th July 2003, 01:39
Nathon Scott: Im not tracking where you are coming from about the tape from someone who figured how as you put it "survive on the streets"?. Is that what his tapes are? I though he was passing it off as authentic aikijutsu(Im not saying its not, who knows?). And that in my opinion is why everyone has there feathers ruffled. If Im wrong than correct me please. My question was, and still is as it stands has anyone been on the floor with Mr Williams or one of his students?
Perhaps Im old school, but if you think someone aint what he says he is dont you track him down writing a letter asking for information and clarity for starters and than compare techneques in person if you feel the need? Or failing that send a student to train with( ) and have him reprt back to you. A little buffer if you will. Or God forbid find the man, get out on the floor and see whats what. I mean you guys are all aiki types right? Isnt there a better way of handling these type of questionable claims than whats being done Mr Williams in this thread?

I for one, never take it personal when someone who wants to see what It is I teach(within reason). If they look at it and say "I dont think that would work on me" than for the most part they are more than welcome to "try me out" so to speak, before giving up hard earned cash/training time. But thats just me. I do think if there was a little more of "show me, dont tell me" attitude, especially when it come to credentials and authenticity that way we could dispense with a lot of bull**t and get to the good stuff" like (Basic movements/applications) for instance.

In conclusion I think it makes E-Budo look bad when this type of thread goes unchecked.
Anyone who wants to check out my credentials can call 403-256-2963 anytime and make an appointment.

Regards






"If you can do it, it aint bragging."

Nathan Scott
15th July 2003, 09:24
Mr. Rogalsky,

I'm not sure why you decided to become personally offended by this thread, but for the record, it wasn't my intention to attack you in response to your post. When I was talking about making stuff up from the streets, I was talking more in a general sense (which may not have been clear) to make a point. The point I was trying to make was that if a person has extremely shakey sounding credentials, then it is prudent to ask yourself who taught them their art? Good chance in cases like this that the person in question put it together themselves. Nothing wrong with that if they wish to advertise their art as something they made up or compiled, but invariably, they never do. They instead claim that it is something that it is not (which is called fraud).

So taking this into consideration, would you be equally as willing to buy such a tape if the teacher had made up their own art called "Joe blow ryu" or might it be more appealing if a part of you wanted to believe that the teacher actually trained in an orthodox line of Daito ryu? If the answer is "I'd buy the tapes regardless of where they derived their methods", then so be it. That is you're opinion, and you're welcome to express it.

As far as getting on the mats to find out what he has, I'd love to see him perform in person, or feel his technique in person, or even watch video tape of him performing. I'm sure it would be enlightening. But not compelling enough for me to take time away from what I'm doing and invest in an airplane ticket to Canada.

I don't feel that posting information compiled through various experiences and/or pasting text from a web page that THEY wrote is Chicken-S. A thread such as this may come off stronger than similar other threads here simply because to those of us who study the aiki arts, the evidence of misinformation provided by Mr. Williams himself on his webpage(s) is simply overwhelming. Threads such as this are open to contribution by anyone with something to say about it, including you, his students, those who have had experiences with him that would like to share, or Mr. Williams himself. Also, I have in fact on several occasions approached some people who were being discussed here to invite their comments.

I would point out though (again) that we are not talking about the person's skill level at self-defense, as this is a subjective opinion that cannot be qualified over the net. We are talking about credentials and qualifications, which is not related to skill. For every thread like this there is at least one person that is not clear about this and feels they have to object on grounds of skill.

Threads like this are necessary to enlighten the public as to what is out there for as long as there are trend-opportunists who intentionally mislead a generally uninformed public.

In any event, be sure to let us know how you like his videos,

INFINOO
15th July 2003, 17:21
Nathon: Just so you know Im not offended , not at all. And if you think Im buying this guys tapes, I was just being cynical. My point to butting in on this thread is that not a single person piling on Mr Williams in this thread has had a single first hand experience with this individual, or one of his students. I still say if you want to show how much you all know about aiki and he don't, track him down, go wipe his face on the matt.
The rest is, as they say, just talk.


Best regards

Jake McKee
16th July 2003, 20:20
Does Mr. Williams claim a relationship with Kazuoki Sogawa of Daito Ryu Saigo Ha in Fukuoka, Japan? They both use "Saigo Ha" in their ryuha names, but I'm not convinced that there is much of a relationship if any.

Best,

Jake McKee
www.budovideos.com

John Connolly
16th July 2003, 22:35
Hullo all,

First post here. I'll try to keep it respectful and in the bounds of what is acceptable here (let me know if I start flailing wildly or frothing at the mouth).

Does Dr. Williams claim any connection with H.E. Davey, himself a claimant to Soke of Saigo Ryu? It doesn't seem right that there should be 2 Sokes of 1 art with incredibly disputable origins.

Cheers,

Eric Joyce
16th July 2003, 23:04
Hi John,

The Dr Williams thing and H.E. Davey thing are seperate form each other. Welcome to the board. :)

John Lindsey
23rd August 2003, 14:05
More info on Williams from: http://ishh.net/williams.html

Dr. Williams began boxing in 1947, his last bout was in 1990.

He began his martial arts training in 1947 in Tani-Ha Jujitsu
He was involved in teaching at a young age.

He began to compete in weightlifting in the early 1950's
He began to study judo in the mid-1950's
He joined the militia in 1968
He taught the militia judo.
He set over 100 weightlifting records between 1950 to 1960
He won Mr. Moncton Boduybuilding in 1963
He won the Mr. New Brunswick in 1963

He began to study karate in 1963
He competed in judo in the USA in the 1960's
He earned his shodan in kyokushin karate in 1967
He began to study Saigo Ha Daito-Ryu in the mid 1960's
He taught police tactics in the late 1960's.
He was awarded a kyoju dairii in 1969
He was awarded a Menkyo Kaiden in 1973

He was appointed inheritor of Saigo Ha Daito-Ryu in 1973
He was recognised as a 7th dan by the CJA in 1975
He became a police officer in 1975

He introduced professional kickboxing to Canada 1976

He joined the Dai Nippon Butokukai in 1977
He joined Holland College teaching staff in 1977

He joined Juko Kai in 1979
He joined the N.B. Highway patrol in 1979

He was awarded an 8th dan in juko kai in 1983
He joined the Seibukan Budokai in 1984
He was awarded a 3rd dan in Kodokan judo in 1985

He joined Seishinkai Karate Union in 1986
He was awarded a 7th dan in shito ryu karate in 1987
He registeed his shinto religion with the ISF in 1987

He formed the WHC in 1987
He set a world record Ice Break for Guiness Book of records 87

He joined the Wabenaki Indian nation in 1990
He became an activist for Indian rights in 1991

In 1996, he opened his first Shinto shrine in Canada.
In 1996, he renamed his system of Daito-Ryu to the Saigo-Ha Takeda-Ryu Aikibudo.
He teaches Shinto-Ryu and Saigo-Ha Takeda-Ryu Aikijujutsu/ Aikibudo.
In 1996 he is elected Chief of Wabenaki Tribal Nation

In 1997, he opened his first Shinto shrine in the USA.
In 1997, he founded the International Saigo Ha Takeda-Ryu Aikibudo Association
In 1997, he was appointed as a Professor for the Japan Cyber College
In 1998 he is certified as an expert on Indian history
In 2000 he creates the ryugi of Saigo Ha
In 2002 He appoints son as Soke Dai
In 2003 he re-assumes control of the WHC.
In 2003 he becomes one of the headfamilies for the ISHH


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jake McKee
25th August 2003, 00:47
Wow, he's a busy guy...

Any idea who he learned Daito Ryu Saigo Ha from?

Best,

Jake McKee
www.budovideos.com

MarkF
25th August 2003, 15:55
Well, I know one of his teachers, a Mr. Rodney Sacharnosky, is well-known for his deadly Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu throws, though he calls it Dai-Yoshin ryu, I believe.;)


Mark

FastEd
26th August 2003, 15:08
Originally posted by Neil Yamamoto
Hi Bruce and Nathan,


Wanna go to Canada anyone? Play tourist and drop by a dojo or two to see what is really going on?

Neil


It looks like he is located in New Brunswick, thats the East Coast of Canada for you spacially challenged. Go during Lobster season, at least you'll eat well.

Nathan Scott
26th August 2003, 19:53
In 2000 he created the Saigo-ha "ryugi". I'd be willing to bet that 2000 was also the same year that he read some of the writings by Professor Friday, and learned the word "ryugi".

I wonder what he was teaching before 2000???

John Lindsey
31st August 2003, 08:31
More info from World Headfounders/Headfamilies Council, Inc website at:

http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/6471/


HISTORY OF THE W.H.C.,Inc.

1985....Dr.John J.Williams contacted Shihan Tony Annesi, Framingham, MA, concerning the possibility of going before a board of examiners through the World Sokeship Federation ( which was founded by the late Soke Albert Church, jr.) for examination of his qualifications in both Daito-Ryu Aiki jujutsu and Shito-Ryu karatedo. ( in hopes of recieving affiliation for his new versions of these two arts.)
1985.....Shihan Tony Annesi contacted Dr.Williams to arrange a meeting with a former student of Soke Albert Church who was recognised as a Shodai-Soke ( first generation grandmaster ) of a new martial art system. ( The student was Soke Clement Riedner, a baptist minister from Michigan who had studied under Soke Church and Soke Shogo Kuniba of Japan )
1986.....Soke Clement Riedner examined all nessasary credentials and viewcd a formal demonstration of the two arts and then certified / recognised Dr.Williams as a Shodai - Soke for his new versions of Daito-Ryu Aiki Jujutsu and Shito-Ryu Karatedo. ( this was a personal recognition)
1987....Dr.Williams contacted some of his associates in Japan who informed him that being recognised as a shodai-soke by another shodai-soke is not the way it was done in Japan prior to the Maijji Era in 1887..
1987....Dr.Williams contacted several prominent martial arts leaders to formulated an actual examination board for the legitimate recognition of either inheritors or first generation founders of a martial art system and the foundation for the WSC, Inc. ( World Sokeship Council, Inc.) was incoporated.
1987....Soke Clement Riedner was elected as the first president of the WSC,Inc.
1987....Dr.John Williams was elected as vice president of the WHC,inc.

Jake McKee
31st August 2003, 08:37
Never mind the history John, how do we join?! :p

Jake McKee
www.budovideos.com

Gunshi
21st March 2004, 22:49
Sillyness :p
I have to admit that this post demonstrated that the people who posted their character assaination of me have acute cognative dwaftism brought-on by an over-exposure to repetitive symbolic rhetoric.
:o To infer that I would never step on the mat because it could be dangerous is the highpoint of their misunderstanding of both me and my character.
Of course! There are attacks others in Daito-Ryu such as John Denora, but who is really doing the attacking? Some computer geeks hiding behind a keyboard who probably never had a real fight in their lives, reading instead the fairie tales of budo written by some pencil neck whimps .
So! What is the point of these personal attacks? To seek acceptance by their self percieved peers as being someone important?
Why did I bother to even write to this silly forum? Well! I guess it is to issue each of those who are so brave a personal challenge to determine who the warrior is and who is a sissie hiding behind a keyboard..
Since I am the attacked, I get to chose the rules under which we will conduct this battle for redemption. If I lose, I pack it in, close down my operation, and agree to never teach again, but, if I win, then we get a formal apology from each of the clowns who are so quick to put me down, and they agree to never again attack another on this or other forums..
Here are my rules:
1...The opponant comes to my province to do battle.
2....I chose the battleground
3...I chose the weapons.(My rules-remember)
4...I chose the time.
5....I determine how the competition will be won.
Okay!
Rule # 2- We will be dropped in the middle of the forest on Crown Land (10 miles from civilzation)
Rule # 3- We will use a standard compound bow with razor tip arrows, camo is optional, no compass or GPS
Rule#4...We will do this in the middle of winter (preferaqbly with a lot of fallen snow, below freezing)
Rule#5-If you walk out-you won.
Am I kidding? Not at all! The main weapon in my branch of Daito-Ryu is the bow & arrow, I upgraded it from a crude toy to a killing machine that any samurai would have given his teeth to own, of course! I have only hunted and killed animals with it so far, this would be a first, but sounds like a lot of fun.
Naw! I have to admit, I would probably just shoot to wound, I used to be a christian, so, I have compassion left over. But then, would I ? (we would be alone, bodies are easy to hide, hell I could feed them to the bears.), we'll decide that then.
Hmmmm! I know, I would shoot to wound then put a sleeper hold on them, maybe a jujijime or hadaka jime, or, maybe a kensetsu waza, make them tap-out?
Now I am getting confused, too many decision to make, do I shoot to wound, do I use aiki, do I use jujitsu, hell! Maybe I can run them over with my four-wheeler.
How about some help here boys? How we gonna do this and still have fun. Now! Since I am 64 years old, I am not going to remember these rules, will someone write them down.
Remember this is a silly thread full of silly people .
Dr. John J. Williams
Saigo Ha Daito-Ryu Aiki Bujutsu Shintokai

glad2bhere
22nd March 2004, 12:32
Dear Ed et al:

I don't mean ANY disrespect to the many contributors on this Net who practice legit DRAJJ but the more I read here the more this sounds very much like a similar mess we Hapkido people recently went through with a personality down in Florida. The take I have on what you folks are discussing is that this is very similar for the following reasons.

1.) The person under discussion has a questionable affiliation with the actual art and its accepted/documented lineages.

2.) The person you are discussing is part of or has developed a following of self-affirming and mutually-affirming peers.

3.) There seems to me to be more of a concern with image (rank, standing, affiliation, etc.) than in actually pursuing authentic DRAJJ or supporting well documented leadership and lineage.

4.) Such explanations as are provide seem to proceed from inference, suggestion, transliteration and interpretation rather than simple documented facts.

For me this is painful as I know how much chaos we in the Hapkido arts have suffered through in the last two years and how much mess now remains to be cleaned up. Very sorry for your troubles.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Eric Joyce
22nd March 2004, 18:24
Is this Thunderdome? Two men enter, one man leaves. :rolleyes:

CMM
22nd March 2004, 18:30
Mr. Williams--

Poor post, poorly written.

Thanks for perpetuating popular perceptions! How's that alliteration for you?

P.S. Spellcheck is a useful tool.

Dan Harden
22nd March 2004, 19:39
Bruce

To be clear-Mr. Williams has nothing at all to do with Daito ryu. He never did.
Like Mr. Denora- Its all made up.
No flavours of truth
No stories to tell
No questions to be asked
No opinions needed.
They simply do not exist in any discussion


Saigo ha has nothing to do with Daito ryu either.
Never did.
Read Aikido Journal.

Hope this helps
Dan

Gene Williams
22nd March 2004, 20:21
Nothing like having the idiot write in and confirm everything we already thought:D

George Kohler
23rd March 2004, 04:18
Gene,

Watch what you say on E-Budo. There is no need for name calling.

MarkF
23rd March 2004, 09:12
Nothing like having the guy write in and confirm everything we all ready knew.


Mark

Gene Williams
23rd March 2004, 11:47
Now, George, "idiot" is a perfectly good word describing someone of low intelligence, a constricted social awareness, and a high level of autistic thinking. Many idiots also live in a world of their own creation with certain delusional thought processes. Sounds to me like it is spot on:D

Dan Harden
23rd March 2004, 13:15
Idiot: One lacking knowledge
John Williams has no affiliation or knowledge of Daito ryu
John Williams=idiot
The rest of his well known and documented public behavior and writing requires no commentary-It stands on its own merits and makes a case for the first observation.


Gene
Isn't that great? In the members section Christians and Jews are called; idiots, Stupid, drooling morons, murderers, and they should be shot. Further comments they have made I would not repeat here.
One fellow blows up threads till the originator of the thread simply leaves and this fellow insults them repeatedly on the way out the door.
On E-budo? No problem
Then _you_ call the likes of John Williams-a truly deranged man- an "idiot" and you get reprimanded. Many people here have taken note that you can pretty much say anything you want about Jews and Christians on E-budo. More than a couple of the men posting have made the observsation to me that they believe it to be the the view of E-budo. Thats why its goes unchecked. I let it go as I though it was a just lack of moderation not selective moderation. Seems they were right after all.

Thanks George
This site is banned from several work place servers for the language used, I cannot let my son read here. We have now used several of the letters from two very prolific posters for a school project for hate-crime rhetoric on the interent-the likes of which I have only seen on Neo-Nazi sites.

Gene? You stated a clear, well known observation of fact for what it is.
So have I

I wish E-budo would do the same
Dan

Gene Williams
23rd March 2004, 14:46
Hi Dan, Thanks. It seems PC has struck the moderators, too. Christians, Jews, males (especially blue collar ones from the Southern US) and heterosexuals are all targets. It is all because the liberal "one world" IDIOTS keep insisting they can create a Utopia of like minded love feasters who will banish war, hate, anger, and individuality from the earth. The sixties will be seen as the beginning of the end of Western civilization, if there are any future historians to write about it. Otherwise, we will make a great fossil index.

Nathan Scott
23rd March 2004, 16:57
Some good points raised here lads. I don't generally read the nonsense threads, or for that matter, most of the threads posted in the Members Lounge. Didn't know about the Neo Nazi crap. I'm not for being PC, but I do think we should keep the discussions on e-budo more on topic at the very least. Discussing religions and politics are the quickest ways to lose friends.

Anyway, I really think we need to keep this thread on topic though.

I would have replied quicker, but I've been on the net looking up airfair prices to Canada. What's funny is that I actually have a nice compound bow with hunting tips laying on my bedroom floor right now. Can't find a place to store it (too much hardware under the bed already).

Dr. John, welcome to e-budo. ;)

For what its worth, you have assasinated your own character here. We've only discussed a very small percentage of the VERY entertaining material you have posted on your webpages. But thanks for coming on our forum and helping our less experienced readers understand for themselves the type of training they can expect at your dojo. Yourself and Mr. Denora are welcome here anytime. I really do try to focus this forum on more academic issues, but a little "Williams/Denora" relief is always welcome to break up the day. Good times. By the way, if you have any influence over the infamous Ron Duncan, we'd love to have him here as well (yoroshiku onegaishimasu).


Since I am the attacked, I get to chose the rules under which we will conduct this battle for redemption.

Since you are by far your own worse enemy, does this mean that you will be challenging yourself to battle by poison tiped arrows? I know that there are a number of us here that would pay cash to see you "redeemed". Easy money... (something to think about... e-budo pay per view). :D

I will say that I'm impressed with how your lifetime of religious studies comes through in your postings. Your depth of spiritual awakening is definitely evidenced by your prolific writings.

Off to work on my "kensetsu",

kenkyusha
23rd March 2004, 21:05
Originally posted by Nathan Scott
snip
I wonder what he was teaching before 2000???
The (abso-smegging-lutely hilarious) tape of his that I saw was labeled "Kindai-ha (something?? sorry, can't remember) ryu" and was old when I found it (early 90's)...

As a side note, an student of his (most likely his son) was quite fond of posting racist rhetoric on rec.MA in the mid-90's... when asked about his views... er... well, let's just say that he wasn't a polished or convincing debater... the apple didn't fall very far or something :rolleyes:.

Be well,
Jigme

Gunshi
24th March 2004, 02:28
Sillyness still here
:eek: This is directed to real martial artists who might have stumbled accross this forum and assumed it was a place for budoka to share ideas, opinions and training methods, move on!!!
This is a place of hate, posturing and anger, led by a few feeble minded morons with an IQ of a toad, trying to pretend they know something, hoping for acceptance in the MA community.
How do they do it? By attacking others so their own emptyness might not be noticed. If one questions them on what they have accomplished which makes them so mighty and enlightened, they come back with an insult.
Even the rebuttle to this post will be another insult or distrataction, instead of an explanation or clarification of the superior martial arts accomplishments which gives them the right to attack and insult others they never met, never knew and never will.
E-Budo stands for "extra bull-s*** until daddy overhears!" since it is obvious none of these clowns are old enough in either age or mentality to realise that they are not being taken as the experts they hope to be by acting like big mouthed bullies on a keyboard..
So! Let's hear from you experts on why you are the experts and everyone else is a bum, maybe then we will understand our failures and then be better for it.
As far the ones your recklessly attack here "proving" anything to anyone on this forum, we should ask "who died and made you god? "
I am awaiting your posting explaining your great achievements so we can all see what makes you all such great experts on Daito-Ryu (and everything else), and never mind the one-liners & rhetorical snotty remarks, if you are that great, please, god! please share it with us so we can be in awe of you.

John J.Williams
Saigo Ha Daito-Ryu Shintokai
Wabanaki First Nation
Kanada



;) ;) ;) :p

Gene Williams
24th March 2004, 03:04
It doesn't take "experts" or geniuses to detect BS as obvious as your's. In fact, any "moron" should be able to quite easily.

Gene Williams
24th March 2004, 03:29
I would like to know when and where you trained with Kuniba...and "helped" him develop Goshin jutsu:laugh: Let's see, you joined Seishin Kai in 1986 and were promoted to a high dan rank in 1987...hmmmm! I guess you were just so good that Kuniba was awed enough to promote you that soon. I was in Seishin Kai, then NKJU, and have maintained ties with a number of Kuniba's people. How come I never heard of you until now? I mean, if you were that good, surely I would have heard of you:rolleyes: I can't wait to ask Bill Price, Darren Myers, Joe Ruiz, and Jerry Mills and Kevin Gurganus about how you helped Kuniba develop his system:D

Gene Williams
24th March 2004, 03:53
Do you know how delusional and grandiose you have to be to create your own religion and call it Shinto, for God's sake? Do you know anything, anything at all about Shinto? It is the Japanese national religion. Your presentation of it seems to vary a bit from the Shinto I've read about. Are you sure the "out of body experience" wasn't an "out of your head" experience?

Gunshi
24th March 2004, 04:08
Come on ! Reveal your greatness to us!
Mr. Williams, let you be the first to tell us what makes you my judge and jury ( hopefully not executioner) after all !
I bow before your greatness and am truly honored to be is the presense of such a master. And let us not forget Nathan, hell! He walks in the shadow of a real movie star who cuts old helmits with a sword, awesome, who can compete with that.
But, let's get real here! I think that you who are so quick to put others down should come on this forum and put your cards on the table, tell us what you have accomplished in the MA world, the battles you won, the people you helped, the lessons you have learned.
We can draw this on and on, but it will lead nowhere because it is based on false accusations, presumtions and useless rhetoric, and sadly, none of these who attack have the testicular fortitude to publish their MA accomplishments so we can see they are a bunch of losers.
That is your E-Budo or better-still, !!!!!!ido
John J. Williams
Saigo Ha Daito-Ryu Shintokai
Wabanaki First Nation
Kanada

:o

elder999
24th March 2004, 05:47
These are the razor hunting points on our arrows, purely designed to kill ! A 45-lb pull compound bow with these tips will go completely through a good size animals like a grizzly or polar bear, causing a quick death.

Dr. Williams, I mean no disrespect,nor am I making any "accusations," but have you hunted brown bear with a bow-45-lb pull? What exactly is "a quick death?" I can see that you've hunted deer with a bow; what exactly is "completely through?" Lastly, what is your affiliation with the Micmaq people, and what do they-and compound bows-have to do with budo?

tsurashi shondo
24th March 2004, 07:13
I like the dripping blood .gifs spacing out the paragraphs on all those pages. More crimson drip than a Zatoichi flick.
Very spiritual indeed.

Gene Williams
24th March 2004, 11:43
Originally posted by elder999
Dr. Williams, I mean no disrespect,nor am I making any "accusations," but have you hunted brown bear with a bow-45-lb pull? What exactly is "a quick death?" I can see that you've hunted deer with a bow; what exactly is "completely through?" Lastly, what is your affiliation with the Micmaq people, and what do they-and compound bows-have to do with budo?

I want to watch him hunt a grizzly with a 45lb bow:D I haven't ever seen anyone ripped from limb to limb and eaten by a grizzly with an arrow sticking out of his !!!!

Cady Goldfield
24th March 2004, 14:33
Please stop "bear baiting" this guy. It's obvious that he is delusional and emotionally unstable. Continuing to taunt him is pointless and unkind, like "placing a stumbling block before the blind."

It's enough that people knowledgeable about his background have pointed out the fiction of his "credentials." Thus, we can all agree that not connected to Daito-ryu in any way, shape or form. That's the only point of this thread. Let's not step beyond it. You're all better than that.

Gene Williams
24th March 2004, 14:36
Thanks, Mom:D

Cady Goldfield
24th March 2004, 15:09
You're welcome. Now, finish your spinach or you don't get to play with your pet ninjers.

cxt
24th March 2004, 20:36
Mr. Williams


Please excuse my lack of information.

But could you expand a bit on your contentions of:

A-A 45 lbs Bow shot arrow going all the way thu a bear?
I have bow hunted prior (mainly deer) and have never had an arrow go all the way thu a deer.

Much less a bear.

B-You mentioned the Micmaq (I think thats the tribe you mentioned--spelling may be off here)
But I have good friends on both side of the Border.

Even hiked up on areas of the Canadian Shield.

I have heard of a Micmaq tribe in maybe NE or NH was not aware they were in Canada.

Could you please tell me where in Canada they are located??

Chris Thomas

Cady Goldfield
24th March 2004, 20:57
Chris,
Mi'kmaq have communities in Nova Scotia and parts of other Maritime provinces (PEI, NB).

cxt
24th March 2004, 21:29
Cady

Thanks.

Knew they were in New Hampsire/New England

Did not know they were quite so widespread.


Chris Thomas

elder999
25th March 2004, 00:23
Originally posted by Cady Goldfield
Please stop "bear baiting" this guy. It's obvious that he is delusional and emotionally unstable. Continuing to taunt him is pointless and unkind, like "placing a stumbling block before the blind."

It's enough that people knowledgeable about his background have pointed out the fiction of his "credentials." Thus, we can all agree that not connected to Daito-ryu in any way, shape or form. That's the only point of this thread. Let's not step beyond it. You're all better than that.

Well,......I thought the Grand Chief of the Canadian First Nations was Phil Fontaine,and he says Dr. Williams is a kook, but perhaps I'm mistaken-I wasn't "taunting"; I was asking.

I'd also like to know which branch of Mugai-ryu he practices as part of "Saigo Ha Daito Ryu" (as claimed on his website).

I'm also really curious about "compound bow" kyudo.:rolleyes: :laugh:
(While I've been hunting with bows of a variety of types and draw weights, I've never even seen an arrow go clean through a deer's throat with a 65 lb. draw bow at extremely close range, never mind 45 lbs. through a bear....but I'm a person of no consequence in this regard, so I looked to what Chuck Adams, world renowned kook and foremost bowhunter has to say about penetration, and he's never done it, after having killed just about every kind of big game that walks this earth with a bow.....at least twice.)


....I'm also curious about how his "Interi Shintoism" differs from ortrhodox shintoism, and how he relates it to the shamanic medicine ways of the "people of the dawn."

...and why he hasn't removed my name (mispelled and in the wrong state) from his website, after I've repeatedly asked him to remove it(though the damned thing wasn't up for a long time, and I figured that was good enough.):redhot:

Nathan Scott
25th March 2004, 01:35
The (abso-smegging-lutely hilarious) tape of his that I saw was labeled "Kindai-ha (something?? sorry, can't remember) ryu" and was old when I found it (early 90's)...

Hey, someone is holding out on valuable BBV footage! I'd love to have some of this for my library (hint)...

I'm afraid Cady is right about this. This thread speaks for itself, we should move on to something more worthwhile.

Mr. J. Williams,

I'm sure we're all surprised to see you defend your training background and credentials by attacking us. I'm afraid this is a classic and anticipated ploy from someone with your type of history.

In closing, I'll just say that none of us here are claiming to be anything, unlike yourself. My "claims" and opinions are backed up (or not) by my own background and credentials, much of which is freely available on the internet. You on the other hand have posted some mighty claims that are completely contrary to what is transmitted in orthodox Daito-ryu, and we are simply discussing what you've posted publicly. If you don't want to be discussed, then don't publish your materials publicly, or for that matter, teach to the public.

**

Unless there is anything useful to add to this subject, I'd suggest we move on. We've discussed the subject, and Mr. Williams has impressed us with his point of view. Let's get back to discussing the arts, eh?

Regards,

Gunshi
25th March 2004, 01:59
Cuffee I do remember you !
I thought that name sounded familiar, Yep ! You bought an old Tai Jitsu (modern self defence) tape from me back in 1989, told me you were a shodan, asked me if you could join us, sent me some stuff to substantiate your shodan claim (can't remember what you sent, must have been photos or certs in aikido or american goshin), I listed you on our old site, then I got involved in the CIM and never heard from you again.
I took 10 years off from the politics of the MA, and then when I returned to the MA , I couldn't update the old site (lost password, they refused to close it down, and your name is probably still there as a blackbelt member )
If you go to our updated site, you arent there. Since we are in the process of updating those we recognised in the late 1980, so, if you were a 1st dan in 1990, that means, you can't be any higher than maybe a yondan in a non-traditional system now, and in 1990, you had no rank in traditional Aiki or we would have listed you in the traditional certification rankings, meaning in 14 years, if you would have studied a traditional martial art, you could not have eaned a rank higher than a 2nd or 3rd dan or mokoroku shoden, certainly not a kyoju Daiiri.
Getting to your other points: Send me a photo of you with a deer or bear you hunted with a bow. ( I posted one with a deer on my site, I have others with bear, hell I have one with a moose), because talk is cheap, if you want to talk Bow Hunting, lets see proof you actually know what you are talking about.
I have sent arrows clean through both a bear and several deer, and nobody that I know uses a 60 lbs pull bow for deer or bear, ( not where we hunt anyway).
Next you infer that I said I Phil Fontaine was not grand chief of the first nations residing in Canada ! I never said that, he is the elected grand chief of the reserve natives in Canada, the government controlled "status" indians, I represent a small tribe (9000) of non-status off-rez Wabanaki Indians fighting for treaty rights through the Canadian Courts. (and that has nothing to do with my MA career, and should not be brought into this forum.)
Your constitution and ours offers all it''s citizens the freeddom of religion of their choice. I chose to believe in Interi Shintoism, it is my choice, if you don't want to believe it, that is your choice, but, you have no right to attack my or anyoe else' religious preference here or elsewhere.
When I came here to defend myself against character assasination, I did so as a Martial Artist, and when you have to attack my lifestyle, my race, my religion, other aspects of my life because I challenge you to prove you are qualified to judge me, you have lowered this forum to nothing but a joke and insult to the very word BUDO.
John J. Williams
Saigo Ha Daito-Ryu Shintokai
Wabanaki First Nations
Kanada

Gene Williams
25th March 2004, 04:58
Hey, John, maybe the bear was having an "out of body" experience and your arrow just went through while he wasn't there:D God, this is too much fun...enjoy your psychosis.

cxt
25th March 2004, 16:27
Gunshi


You are right, your status with the Wabinaki Nation has no place on this forum.

Begs the question though, if you don't want to discuss it, if you "really" don't want it mentioned.

Then why pray tell, do you use it as an automatic "sign in" for your posts?

Seems to me that is contradictory. You DON"T want to make it an issue for a MA forum BUT you list it right under your MA title every time you post.

See, that does not make sense to me.

If you are not trying to cash in on the term "Wabinaki Nation" why do you use it????

Chris Thomas

Walker
25th March 2004, 17:30
Yeah? Well he lives in "Canada with a K." Viva la revolution!

Jerry Johnson
25th March 2004, 18:52
Mr. Williams,

I have seen your website, a very massive site which caused me a of bit confused on some of the information, would you be so kind to clarify on the following from From your website (http://www.juliancollege.com/shiro-saigo.html)



After many years Saigo Shiro left the Kodokan due to pressures from outside that art and became a reporter and master of Kyudo (archery). I was just wondering why he didn't continue jujitsu.


Saigo Shiro, perhaps one of the world's greatest Jujutsuka died on 23 December 1922 at the age of 57. after teaching small select groups of students throughout Japan. Was he teaching Kyudo or jujitsu, or judo?

You also state that
Shiro Saigo passed his art down to Yamashita Houei[,] Yamashita Houei's style was passed on through a Japanese and Chinese student. Today, there is still schools teaching both these version of Daito-Ryu Branch through Yamashita Houei developed in Japan

- Soke Kazouichi Sogawa Saigo Ha Daito-Ryu Shukikan Japan
Branch through Yamashita Houei developed in North America

- Soke John J. Williams Saigo Ha Daito-Ryu Shintokan Canada


I am not clear, and forgive me for my lack of expertise in the art of lineage, but who taught Sogawa and who taught you? You are a Soke ( Inheritor )of Daito-Ryu Shinktokan? Shintokan from which student did that develop from the Japanese or Chinese student's version? I hope you can see my confusion.

From your website (http://www.juliancollege.com/history2.html)
[Tanomo Saigo]
then served as a Shinto priest, and adopted Shiro Saigo as his son, hoping he would take-over the Daito-Ryu system, but, Saigo Shiro, joined the fledging art founded by Jigoro Kano, which became known as Kodokan Judo, ( This led to Saigo Tanomo asking a young fighter by the name of Sokaku Takeda to become the next inheritor of this art.)

What difference in age where these two men. How many years apart where they?


QUESTION:
Was Saigo Tanomo a friend of Takeda Saomon?


Your replies would be appreicated.

Jerry Johnson
25th March 2004, 19:08
Mr. Williams, one more question, which I am confused on, you state you are Kancho Saigo Ha Daito-Ryu Aikibujutsu RengoKai, what is that and where does it come from?
From your webpage (http://juliancollege.com/dr2.html)


I also noticed this,

Sokaku was instructed by Takeda Soemon and his father before studying under Tanomo Saigo as preparation to teach this art to the general population.

Sokaku Takeda usually used the term YAMATE-RYU (Mountain Hand ) to discribe his version of SAIGO-HA AIKIBUDO.but he was convinced by one of his senior students, Yoshida Kotario, to use the name DAITO-RYU ( great Eastern Style) due to the militarialistic situation prior to the expansionistic policies of pre world II war Japan.


I am confused with this, "to discribe [Takeda's] version of SAIGO-HA AIKIBUDO?" Why is this? I thought Soemon taught Takeda and not Saigo?

elder999
25th March 2004, 19:09
Originally posted by Gunshi
Cuffee I do remember you !
I thought that name sounded familiar, Yep ! You bought an old Tai Jitsu (modern self defence) tape from me back in 1989, told me you were a shodan, asked me if you could join us, sent me some stuff to substantiate your shodan claim (can't remember what you sent, must have been photos or certs in aikido or american goshin), I listed you on our old site, then I got involved in the CIM and never heard from you again.


I bought your tapes;I'll admit that mistake("Kindai-Ha Shinto Ryu?"). Therest of your story is....interesting. I never sent anything other than a check, nor did I ask to join, and in 1989 I hadn't been a shodan in...well, a while.Someone had told me you were some kind o f "old-time strongman,"like one of my teachers. You're not, and that's where my interest lay.

As for the hunting, I don't hunt bear because I don't eat bear, and I don't take pictures of dead animals because they're meat.

(Nathan, if you want those tapes, I still have them. P.M. me....)

....and maybe we can have this moved to "Bad Budo," Mr. Moderator???

Nathan Scott
25th March 2004, 21:20
From J. Williams' page:


Sokaku Takeda usually used the term YAMATE-RYU (Mountain Hand ) to discribe his version of SAIGO-HA AIKIBUDO.

This is straight out wrong, and is one of many things on those pages that are ill-informed assumptions.

It is believed that the kanji for Daito-ryu (Great East Tradition) were previously known by alternate kanji/reading "Yamato-ryu" (Great Harmony Tradition). Yamato is the old name for "ancient Japan", not "mountain hand". I suspect it was a mistranslation of Yamato as Yamate that inspired Lovret originally to come up with his "Yamate-ryu AJJ" (Yamate = Mountain Hand), in an attempt to pre-date Sokaku's Daito-ryu. Oops.

Assuming the above is true, that could mean that the "Daito mansion" (Daitokan) of Yoshimitsu may have actually been called the "Yamatokan" (?). Hmmm...

Anyway, one of many things that is funny about the whole Saigo-ha thing is that Daito-ryu does not seem to have been adopted as the art name until the early 20th century. So if the Saigo-ha line predates Sokaku's training (ca. 1888), and does not recognize Sokaku as a technical influence, then why is the name Daito-ryu attached to the teachings of the Saigo-ha group (gee, commercial draw?). Another oops.

Here is what Kondo Katsuyuki had to say about Saigo-ha (from CWDRM, page 175):


Aiki News: Recently, articles featuring a group in Kyushu that calls itself Saigo-ha Daito-ryu Aikibujutsu have been appearing in Japanese martial arts magazines. The most problematic point for me as a historian was a chart, printed in one of these articles, tracing a continous Daito-ryu lineage within the Aizu clan from Tanomo Saigo, through Shiro Saigo, to a certain Yamashita Shihan and finally to the present Sogawa Shihan. Would you give us your opinion on this subject as the Soke Dairi of the main school of Daito-ryu?

Kondo: Properly speaking, there is no connection whatsoever between the Saigo-ha and Daito-ryu schools. They should not call themselves Daito-ryu because there is no relationship at all between Daito-ryu and the version of history they are offering.

As far as the Rengokai, they are another Saigo-ha group that has been exposed.... I mean, discussed at some length here:

Canadian AJJ - Rengokai, Kidokai, Gidokai etc. (http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1028)

Mr. Cuffee,

Thanks very much for the offer. As an aside, Obata Sensei recently authorized the upload of an online movie clip montage to our websites. It would seem that Mr. Williams does not think much of Obata Sensei - I wonder how inferior this footage is compared to the methods he has publisized? ;)

.WMV (Media Player) Movie File of Obata Toshishiro Sensei (http://www.shinkendo.com/mpegs/shinkendo_demo.wmv)

Regards,

jest
26th March 2004, 11:32
Originally posted by Nathan Scott
Mr. Cuffee,

Thanks very much for the offer. As an aside, Obata Sensei recently authorized the upload of an online movie clip montage to our websites. It would seem that Mr. Williams does not think much of Obata Sensei - I wonder how inferior this footage is compared to the methods he has publisized? ;)

.WMV (Media Player) Movie File of Obata Toshishiro Sensei (http://www.shinkendo.com/mpegs/shinkendo_demo.wmv)

Regards,

All due respect to Obata Sensei (and that's a lot), but did I see someone doing a cartwheel in that video? ;)

Nathan Scott
26th March 2004, 20:04
All due respect to Obata Sensei (and that's a lot), but did I see someone doing a cartwheel in that video?

(chuckle). Yeah, that was Obata Sensei's daughter. We actually include cartwheels (sokuten), hand stands, and sometimes hand springs as part of our physical conditioning. It helps the balance, and makes the upper body stronger. Some of it, like the cartwheels, are sometimes incorporated in paired drills, but they are not "real techniques" by a long stretch (I assume that is what you were worried about)! We show many of our training methods during demonstrations, and in that context I think the methods are clearly understood. Probably a little misleading when put in a montage though...

As far as Daito-ryu opportunists trying to claim lineage to delegates sent to America in Hoover's time, that is something I was also concerned about (and surprised that it hadn't come up yet). We actually have a thread here about this subject, and I was hesitant to post about it publicly lest our McAiki franchise demographic gets any new ideas on how to defraud the public.

Regards,

Kyuditz
30th March 2004, 19:28
So, how can one learn authentic Daito Ryu? Is Hapkido any good? I haven't seriously trained in a long time because I haven't found anything worth my time. I'm not violent, but I don't mess around when push comes to shove.

Kyu

Nathan Scott
30th March 2004, 20:14
So, how can one learn authentic Daito Ryu? Is Hapkido any good? I haven't seriously trained in a long time because I haven't found anything worth my time. I'm not violent, but I don't mess around when push comes to shove.

First off, you need to post with your full, real name, per the instructions you read when registering here.

As far as learning authentic DR, simply research the major branches of DR and then approach the one that seems to best suit your interest to find out about how to get started.

You will probably have to travel, but that won't be a problem since this is something that you want to do. You can also check the AJJ Archive sub-forum here, and look for a thread for a state closest to you. If you don't see your state, feel free to start one and see if you get any bites.

Got questions about a teacher? Ask them here.

The other option is that you just buy whatever publications that are available out there and just talk about training in DR on the internet! ;)

As far as Hapkido goes, it is a good art (assuming you find a good teacher), but it is not Daito-ryu.

Good luck,

coldblood
12th April 2004, 18:46
i trained with john williams or one of his sons from about 1989 until 1998 or so. regardless of the claims made on their website, they are very accomplished martial artists, and the actual intruction recieved is very good.

i have some other martial arts background to compare the material too as well, 5 years of wrestling, 2 years of kempo, 2 years of kick boxing, soem wing chun and soem judo.

the caliber of instruction and utility of techniques were impressive. the things i was taught were found to be effective in the real world.

lot of little things add up to being true. anyway, my expereince with the williams have always been positive.

andrew holt

Ron Tisdale
12th April 2004, 19:25
Hi Andrew,

I think you ususally post on rec.martial-arts, right?

The question here isn't whether or not you had a positive experience, or whether or not the techniques seemed good to someone without an accredited Daito ryu background, or whether 'lots of little things added up'.

The question here is: is the material being taught authentically part of the Daito ryu tradition, is the linneage of the instructor valid (in terms of that tradition), are the things on the web site true?

Fighting Dr. Williams or his sons, or whoever they trained, or stalking them in the cold white north, or whatever has nothing to do with the questions being asked or the answers provided (or not provided) so far.

While I am glad that you had a good experience with him, your positive experience does nothing for us in terms of this discussion. Good to hear from you again,

Ron Tisdale

coldblood
13th April 2004, 14:18
yes i usually post to rma :)

well, from what i have experienced, the techniques and principles behind the techniques are daito-ryu. little hard to prove so over the internet but, i feel it to be so. there is a great deal of finesse and sophistication to the techniques. something not found for example in any hapkido( a monkey see monkey do style based on daito ryu) i have ever seen. its closer to aikido, but more.. violent? if you happen to be in the calgary area, i would be happy to demo what i know. you'll have to allow for me being rusty, i blew my knee quite badly in '98 and have trained but little since then. despite that i am fairly certain i can give credible demonstration of some techniques and the underlying principles behind them.

as to the lineage... well i cant say with 100% confidence that it is true. but, the techniques themselves are consistent with what i have seen of daito-ryu. any time i have shown other martial artists the things i was taught, they all seem to agree its daito ryu. the depth of experience and knowledge john and sons posses , i really do not feel can be faked, or picked up from books and videos. ( or if it can, then they are amazingly gifted)

somehow, whether you believe their lineage or not, somehow they have mastered the material you would expect to find in a so called legitimate daito dojo, and are able to pass on that set of skills.

make of it what you will. if they are fakes, they are so good and so close to the real thing that i can not tell the difference. i can honestly say i have never seen anyone who actually stepped onto the mat with john come away from the experience anything other than a believer. the proof is in the pudding is it not? having accidentally wasted time with 'kam lung kempo' , i can say i have seen fakery before. this does not feel fake.

Ron Tisdale
14th April 2004, 13:54
Understood. One point of clarification...under whom did you practice legitimate Daito ryu? Just for comparison's sake...

RT

coldblood
14th April 2004, 18:35
well. i haven't been anywhere that taught anything i can prove was 'the real deal' . but, i have seen ajj demos by supposedly legitimate instructors. for related styles i have seen a lot of hapkido, and a lot of aikido, and am very aware of the significant gap in depth and finesse when those two are compared to what i was taught. its not as if i do not have anything to compare it to. as i said, if they are fakes, i can not tell. hence me saying i'd be happy to show what i was taught. then perhaps we could settle this discussion. they may be frauds. i don't think so, but, that doesn't mean they aren't. however, since no one here seems to have gone to find them and witness first hand their skills then perhaps its a bit much to dismiss them out of hand.

andrew holt

Ron Tisdale
14th April 2004, 18:48
I don't think anyone is dismissing them out of hand. Re-read the thread...most people have stuck to very specific things. None of which are answered by your posts. The heads of Daito ryu organizations I have come in contact with even dismiss the information provided on the site in question.

Given that, I'd have to say my opinion stands. Whether or not the man in question or any of his students could 'take me' has absolutely nothing to do with it. So in that respect, a visit to the dojo really doesn't answer the questions at hand.

As to your experience, yes, I'd say there may be a vast difference from what you would see and feel in many aikido and hapkido dojo, compared to what you'd find in an authorised, legitimate DAJJ dojo. But then, you might find this same difference exists were you to actually visit such a place, relative to the organization currently being discussed.

Ron

glad2bhere
14th April 2004, 18:48
I chime in only because someone referenced Hapkido. I wish I could share some stellar experience that would show you all the superiority of my art. Sadly, I must admit that we have exactly the same problems that you and everyone else does. I have had the pleasure (?) of being torqued and thrown by some pretty decent practitioners and some real bozo-s and neither one wore labels. Rank didn't make much difference. The bad ones really cranked on me to let me know they could hurt me, but also to make up the fact that they couldn't do anything else BUT hurt me. On the other hand I left the mat in wonder on a few occasions having worked with a partner at a seminar who effortlessly dropped me on my a$$ simply because he knew where my balance-point was even as I was only just arriving there. The only pain was impacting the floor but he did it to me repeatedly. Now, I don't know from DRAJJ but it would seem to me that anybody can drop somebody on the floor. To me is to do it within the context of the biomechanics propounded by a particular tradition. If someone says they are DRAJJ, or Hapkido but step outside the parameters of the art to make things happen, the concepts of real or fake don't enter it. To me that would be the same as using a "smart ball" in golf to find the cup. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

coldblood
15th April 2004, 13:54
no, i wasn't arguing if they could take you or anyone else. i was saying, _despite_ their 'lineage' they appear to be teaching the same techniques as one would expect to find in an accredited dajj school. the only way you would be able to see if they really had the goods was if you trained with one of them.( or had someone demo what they could and see if that lines up as you would expect dajj to) i really didn't think that was such a difficult concept. if they have legitimate techniques, then how did they acquire them? skip the lineage( etc etc) issue for the moment. first find out if they really are in fact teaching ajj/dajj. if so, then the question of linage becomes significant. if they are not teaching dajj/ajj then who really cares what they claim?

Nathan Scott
23rd April 2004, 09:29
While I'd love to see Mr. Williams demonstrate his art, I've got to say that it is painfully clear that what he is teaching is not anything close to orthodox Daito-ryu. "Aikijujutsu" could be whatever someone decides to define it as, so I can't comment on that part. But the curriculum and webpage in general clearly shows that his approach to "Daito-ryu" is not "Daito-ryu" by a long shot - despite arguments of legitimacy.

I appreciate your willingness to come on and express your experiences here, but things are not always as we would like them to be.

FWIW,

journee
2nd May 2004, 16:27
Strange thread
If it looks like a dog, barks like a dog and smells like a dog, can it be a horse ?
Journee

George Kohler
2nd May 2004, 17:26
Originally posted by journee
[B]Strange thread

Mary,

Please sign your posts with your full name. It is E-Budo policy.

Thanks,

ghp
2nd May 2004, 18:05
If it looks like a dog, barks like a dog and smells like a dog, can it be a horse? No, which is why he is not qualified to run the Queen's Plate, Ascot, or in the Kentucky Derby.

Tally-ho!
Guy

journee
3rd May 2004, 13:08
Cut him some slack
I have visited e-budo for a few years and in general it has been enlightning and educational, but this thread seems a great departure from what I generally considered to be fair and unbiased analysis of the various arts, personalities and systems.
I had never heard of, or met this person personaly, although we both live on the east coast of Canada, He doesn't run a commercial school that is advertized, although everyone in the arts that I talked to seems to know who he is ( apparently he is best remembered for breaking ice with a punch and teaching street smart programs to children on social assistance or welfare) .
So, out of curiousity I did visit his site, after the attacks on it, or him, perked my curiosity, and at first it was just overwhelming to say the least.
I don't know if anyone visited his profile page or not, but, if you did, then he comes-off as a very interesting man, and he backs up his claims very solidly, and he does hold one of the highest legitimate ranks in Karate in Canada, so, it is obvious he is not the MA phoney you are trying to say he is.
What I find bad about this thread is that none of the attackers, the mod included, ever saw this guy perform, or even tried to interact with him when he came here is a discussion mode, ( If you read his post, it was not insulting or negative, it was just one of defence, he asked the simple question of what qualifies you to judge him, and none of you responded with what I consider a good answer, instead you showed total disrespect for someone who probably has more martial arts experience than all of you combined.)
I admit I am just a newbie to the MA, but, I know that the MA are based on respect and understanding of the differences which exists between styles, teachers and arts, and to be quite frank, you need to find a real sensei who can teach you this because this thread clearly shows you have yet undetstanding of what the MA are really all about, and whomever your teaher is, needs to rein you guys in to save face, because my teacher would kick me out of our dojo if I acted the way you are here. ( I had to get his permission to post here because he teaches us that we represent the school and teachers)

Mary H.

George Kohler
3rd May 2004, 14:18
Originally posted by journee
Mary H.

Mary,

This will be the last time that I mention this. Please sign your posts with your full name. It is E-Budo policy.

journee
3rd May 2004, 16:30
I thought I has seen others here signing with just their first name, sorry.
I expect to be flamed over my post, so, I want to be here to answer if necessary.
Mary Hebert :D

George Kohler
3rd May 2004, 16:54
If the name is on their user name, like mine, then they don't need to sign their name. It's already part of the post. Most use the signature option in the edit profile link (look under "User CP" Link).

Shison
3rd May 2004, 17:33
The question at hand isn't whether or not Mr. Williams is a decent person, as there are a lot of "decent people" in the world, and the qualifications for being "decent" will vary from person to person.

The question at hand isn't whether or not he's a good martial artist, for like I stated above, there are good martial artists in the world, and likewise the description of "good" will vary from person to person.

The question is simply this:

Does he teach legitimate Daito-Ryu?

If he does, is there any proof of it?

If he doesn't, why is he using the name? There are other styles out there that teach aiki-jujutsu without claiming to be Daito-Ryu.

That's what this thread is trying to find out; not how many students he has (or had), not how good he is, either character-wise or martial-wise, just the legitimacy of his style.

Nathan Scott
3rd May 2004, 19:24
Hi Mary,

Thanks for writing your concerns. I'm glad you thought to look into the matter more for yourself. I will say a few things though:

There is not enough time in the year to go through William's webpage and argue the many, many points that are "unusual" or just incorrect. Most of us here who have been in the arts for a while feel that Williams' page, and this thread in particular, speaks for itself. I find it interesting that you can read Mr. Williams' replies to us and still write the supportive post that you wrote. You are quick to point out the good things he has done locally, but apparently did not notice the corny and somewhat disturbing "death challenge by compound bow" comment he made when first posting here. Is this someone that you want to leave your kids with?

You admit to being a newbie, which if you don't mind me saying so, I believe explains why the webpage and William's credentials seem so impressive to you. I strongly believe that if you were to continue researching traditional Japanese budo over the next 5 years of your training, you would begin to understand what it is we all see so clearly. The fact that you observed that most of us in this forum try to be fair and objective, but seem overly judgemental in this particular thread, should be telling. It is because it is an "open and close" subject. None of us have any doubt about the positions we've taken.

Who are we to judge him? Everyone here is offering their *opinion* based on their own experiences. What those opinions are worth to you is for you to decide. The experience and credentials I list publicly (all of which I earned the hard way BTW) can be found pretty easily if anyone is interested in trying to qualify my opinions. I've still not seen Mr. Williams demonstrate his methods, but I have a very good idea what to expect based on the many people like him I've seen before. I also am expecting a video tape in the mail with any luck.

But regardless, as the last poster stated - we are not concerned with Mr. Williams' ability level. That is irrelevant, and a subjective subject that cannot be qualified over the net. However, incorrect information and illegitimate use of an art name is a more clear subject that CAN be discussed publicly. When someone defrauds the public (promising the "consumer" something that they are not giving them), it hurts all of us that train and teach martial arts. That is why we are concerned about his activities, and why we want to document feedback and contributions about him on the net, so that others like yourself can find them and take them into consideration (a now "advised consumer").

If you still think we are all full of it, then that is up to you. I would applaud you for using your own brain, and not just following blindly what others say. However, we are simply submitting our observations and opinions based on what Mr. Williams has advertised publicly himself, and this thread is open to ALL to contribute to, including his supporters and Mr. Williams himself.

Regards,

SBreheney
3rd May 2004, 19:30
Well said, Nathan. VERY well said.

journee
3rd May 2004, 20:10
Still not convinced !
I am a MA newbie, but not a dummy, and in these posts, nothing was provided that proves he is not teaching Daito-Ryu, nothing whatsoever.
Where is the proof? Did you check him out yourselves, No! Did you talk to his students, one wrote and you dissagreed with him, put him on the defensive, so, he backed-off, trying to remain P.C. within this group.
I find it strange that none of you checked with the ISHH grandmasters to get thier views on him, they certainly seen him, he gave demonstration at all their conventions (I hear the ISHH existed way back in 1987), check with them, if he is a phoney, they will tell you.
Matter of fact, if you go to his site, there are pictures of him with all kinds of well known MA leaders, surely you can contact them, and some must know what he teaches, if dr, gj, jj or not..
I never said I was impressed with his website (I am a middle-aged professional, and not some little girl in awe of anyone with a blackbelt), so don't plagerise me please.
My comments are based on what I seen on this thread, not on my being impressed with a webpage. ( So, you can all get off your high horses and back up what you are inferring about him with debateble issues, which I am sure he, or one of his students, can come back here to debate, and then the readers can draw their own opinions as to what he does or does not know about traditional Daito-Ryu. )
As a member of this site, I expect to be given both sides of an issue so I can make up my own mind as to who is legitimate and what seems to be the truth.
What we have seen here so far is a few people writing things that are not supported by evidence, and quite frankly, I am far from impressed with this thread, and the mod who should have exercized control over the way it went.

Mary Hebert :rolleyes:

chrismoses
3rd May 2004, 20:48
Mary, since the ISHH was in part founded by JJW, it's hardly an impartial source of information. Nearly all of the American "Sokeyship, Grandmaster or Headmaster" blanket organizations are little more than clubs of teachers who award each other rank because they have no legitimate organization in Japan that will deal with them. Being a part of one of these organizations is seen more as a blight than a credit among those who study the real arts. The ISHH has NO right to dictate what is or is not legitimate DR. Only a few men in Japan have that right, and NONE of them have validated what Williams is teaching. As for existing "way back" in 1987, we're talking about an art that's existed for *at the very least* well into the 1800's. 1987 might as well be last Thursday in the scale of Koryu lineages.

I think that one of the confusions here is that the people who we should be looking to for clarifications on Williams claims (the authorities on what is or isn't legitimate DR) are the people here in this thread. I suppose you could contact Stan Pranin of Aikido Journal. I kind of doubt he would enter into the fray, but if you wanted a real impartial authority (other than those here on this board) he'd be your man. I don't think anyone meant offence at referring to your relative inexperience. Sorry you seem to have taken it that way.

Ron Tisdale
3rd May 2004, 21:06
I find it strange that none of you checked with the ISHH grandmasters to get thier views on him, they certainly seen him,

Did they seen him, see him, or saw him? (this written by 'a professional')

A bunch of 'grandmasters' is the last place I would look to for advice on anyone or anything. Especially Daito ryu.

RT

chrismoses
3rd May 2004, 21:52
Oi, Ron. Clean out yer inbox.

Ron Tisdale
3rd May 2004, 21:58
oops...sorry....

ghp
3rd May 2004, 22:48
Dear Mary,

I do not think anybody is denigrating you -- we are just pointing out that as far as martial arts goes, you are a relative babe in the woods. You are not being insulted -- you are being given the wisdom of experience. I have been involved actively in martial arts since 1968, yet aikijujutsu is not my field of expertise. I defer to Nathan in these matters. Nathan is much younger than I, but he has experience in aikido, aikijujutsu, and kenjutsu. Nathan has studied many years under one of the highest-rated technical experts in the US; he knows his history and business.

You state
in these posts, nothing was provided that proves he is not teaching Daito-Ryu, nothing whatsoever. Where is the proof? Did you check him out yourselves, No! Did you talk to his students, one wrote and you dissagreed with him, put him on the defensive, so, he backed-off, trying to remain P.C. within this group. I find it strange that none of you checked with the ISHH grandmasters to get thier views on him, they certainly seen him, he gave demonstration at all their conventions (I hear the ISHH existed way back in 1987), check with them, if he is a phoney, they will tell you. Actually, Nathan has already provided that proof, to wit:
Here is what Kondo Katsuyuki had to say about Saigo-ha (from CWDRM, page 175):

quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Aiki News: Recently, articles featuring a group in Kyushu that calls itself Saigo-ha Daito-ryu Aikibujutsu have been appearing in Japanese martial arts magazines. The most problematic point for me as a historian was a chart, printed in one of these articles, tracing a continous Daito-ryu lineage within the Aizu clan from Tanomo Saigo, through Shiro Saigo, to a certain Yamashita Shihan and finally to the present Sogawa Shihan. Would you give us your opinion on this subject as the Soke Dairi of the main school of Daito-ryu?

Kondo: Properly speaking, there is no connection whatsoever between the Saigo-ha and Daito-ryu schools. They should not call themselves Daito-ryu because there is no relationship at all between Daito-ryu and the version of history they are offering.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
That is the final word -- even if the question was couched as "...in Kyushu...." He is speaking of "Saigo-ha" and Mr. Williams is of "Saigo-ha."

If you do not know who Kondo Katsuyuki sensei is, then please read the interview in the link at the end of this brief CV:
Born in Tokyo in 1945, Katsuyuki Kondo, Sensei first learned Daito-ryu while still a child from Tsunejiro Hosono of the Shineikan dojo. He began studying under Tokimune Takeda Soke in 1961 and under Kotaro Yoshida in Hitachi in 1963. He became a direct student of Tokimune Takeda in March 1966, and was appointed soke kyoju dairi in November 1974 and soke dairi as well as menkyo kaiden in May 1988. At the national branch managers' meeting in September 1994 he was made headquarters' chief and executive division chief for Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu. He is also a researcher of Tesshu Yamoaka. [source:http://aikidojournal.ubernet.net/article.php?articleID=77 Kondo sensei is one of the directors of Daito Ryu and speaks with authority.

Regards,
Guy

Nathan Scott
4th May 2004, 11:08
"Mary",


I never said I was impressed with his website (I am a middle-aged professional, and not some little girl in awe of anyone with a blackbelt), so don't plagerise me please.

Ummm, O.K. I'll keep that in mind (shrug)...

Anyway, I thought my reply to you was pretty polite, so I'm not sure why you are so worked up and defensive. Me gut says you are posting here with an agenda in mind though. As long as we are all being forthcoming and honorable, how about telling us what you relationship to Mr. Williams really is?

[Mary, don't read this part]

<font size=1>BTW, did anyone else notice that Mary's phrasing, tone and posting style is pretty identical to that of John Williams' posts? I guess we'll start off with that "check the 'ol IP address thing" and go from there...</font>

<font size=2>Anyway, picking apart Mr. William's web page is problematic for two reasons. One, it would take a great deal of time just to go through the whole thing again, let alone to write down all the errors and weirdnesses therein. Two, offering corrections to Mr. Williams would only allow him to correct his mistakes and increase the believability element of his pitch. But to be a sport, I'll go back to the page and find something (in addition to the pretty compelling bit of authoratative testimony from Kondo Sensei that Guy reposted). Hang on a sec here.

O.K., from the main page at:
http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/4856/

1) The title of the page is "Official Saigo ha Daito-ryu Homepage". Saigo ha, as mentioned previously, has no relation to legitimate Daito-ryu, and the group in Kyushu using the name is led by Sogawa Kazuoki "Soke". It is generally acknowledged in Daito-ryu that the name Daito-ryu is one that Takeda Sokaku selected for his art, not one that was passed down in generations previous to him. Therefore, if for no other reason, it is illogical for the "Saigo-ha" group to use the name Daito-ryu for their art since their lineage supposedly split off prior to Takeda Sokaku's generation. The Saigo-ha in general are clearly exploiting the Daito-ryu name for financial gain, and have sold an un-Godly amount of publications in Japanese under the Daito-ryu name. Williams himself says on his page "Saigo Ha Daito-Ryu is not the same branch of the art that evolved through Tanomo Saigo's bodyguard and successor, Sokaku Takeda".

Furthermore, John Williams webpage claims to be the "official hompage" for the Saigo-ha group. Which line, that of "Sogawa Soke" in Japan, or that of "Master Po"? How did Chinese arts and karate kicks get mixed into "Daito-ryu" again?

2) There are misspellings of names and terms in almost every paragraph of these webpages. I'm not going to waste time going through all of them - just go see for yourself if you don't believe me.

3) In the third paragraph of text: "known as the "souden" (sic) or "core techniques".

Soden does not mean core techniques, it means inherited transmission. Look it up in a dictionary. I recommend the Nihon Budo Jiten for stuff like this.

4) Next in the third paragraph of text: "(Both branches [Saigo ha and Daito-ryu. NS] are simply separate divisions or parts of the overall traditional art of the Minamoto and Aizu clans, both being of equal status and authenticity.)".

Though this may be his opinion, a topical survey of both arts and their exponents will show that this is not true. Daito-ryu does not have a great deal of documentation that backs up it's existance prior to Sokaku, but Sokaku himself was probably one of the two most famous Jujutsu exponents of the Meiji/Taisho periods in Japan (the other being Kano), and orthodox Daito-ryu during and after his lifetime is well documented and well respected. Saigo-ha, on the other hand, has shown no evidence whatsoever of any connection to the Saigo family or Daito-ryu, but does publish massive amounts of poorly performed technical books composed of what looks more like bad aikido than Daito-ryu (in my opinion). You will in fact find very few martial artists that respect the work or claims of the Saigo-ha group, outside of perhaps those that are their students.

5) In the fourth paragraph: "The rest is history : Shiro Saigo relocated to Nagasaki and assumed a low public profile, still teaching Daito-Ryu, along with other arts, while, Sokaku Takeda, assumed the title of grandmaster of Daito-ryu and became very well-known until he died in his early 80's."

I guess it's not worth mentioning that Shiro became famous for his great contribution to the spreading of Judo, not Daito-ryu. There is no evidence whatsoever that Shiro ever taught Daito-ryu, and pretty much no compelling evidence to suggest that he had learned martial arts from his adopted father, let alone "Daito-ryu".

6) In the fifth paragraph: "...it must be remembered that Daito-Ryu had many other branches or divisions which made-up the complete fighing art of the Minamoto and Aizu clans for 1200-years, and each of these ryuha or branches were headed by Dai-Soke or headmasters, of which some still exists today."

No, it didn't. There were arts (ryu-ha) that split off from teachings of the Takeda family line, but Daito-ryu (by that name or any other) was not "the" art of the Minamoto and/or Aizu clans. It *may* have been one art, comprised of one or more areas of training, but both the Minamoto and Aizu families had a multitude of arts that they studied that had no relation whatsoever to Daito-ryu or the Takeda family arts.

6) After that is says: "Since the Minamoto and Aizu Samurai were taught the 18 Samurai weapons (Yari, Kenjutsu, Naginata, etc.) according to their family lineages or status, it was nessesary to offer separate training and specialization for each of these weapons. (These branches often became unique arts themselves over time)" .

Not all "samurai" were taught the "18 samurai weapons". The arts were selected and taught largely on a warrior's position and needs. The lowest ranked warrior might only be taught some basic spearmanship, while the more highly ranked bushi might be exposed to far more than 18 arts. There in fact was not ever a nationally standardized number of arts/weapons (to my knowledge) that a bushi was expected to study. The 18 arts (so called "bugei juhappan") is simply the most common number/formula tossed around, but is a historically misleading reference.

7) Lastly, moving on to the "introduction" page, 6th paragraph: "Even the different branches within either the Sokaku or Saigo lines teach the techniques differently .
The best example of these techniques being taught differently is in the 118 mokoroku or kajo sets of basic techniques ; If you look at the kajos from the Takumakai, Takedakan (sic) and Shintokai you will see the same order of techniques, but they often have different names for the techniques and are done in a different manner, with more or less strikes, different turns or twists, ect (sic)..."

The Hiden Mokuroku as transmitted by Takeda Sokaku contains 118 techniques that are not named, but only numbered. If Saigo Tanomo had passed on this scroll to Sokaku with names for each technique written on it, they would more than likely still be there. Either way, the names on this densho do not differ from that of the Saigo-ha group because there *are no names*. Tokimune was the one that re-organized his version of the Hiden Mokuroku techniques and added his own names to them, but this was not done untily probably sometime after ca. 1950.

**

Anyway, I could go on and on. For example (this is a bit addicting), elsewhere on the page Williams claims that it was "Soemon Tekeda (sic) who first coined the term aiki", which is unsupported and wrong according to the lineage that Soemon supposedly passed down himself, which states that Prince Sadazumi is credited with "discovering the secrets of aiki". The term aiki existed long before Soemon's generation, and most likely was even used within the Takeda family (according to one entry for Takeda-ryu in the BRDJ).

Under "secrets" there is a photo of Ueshiba Morihei's Kyoju Dairi issuance entry from either Sokaku's eimeiroku or shareiroku, which was originally published by Aiki News, that explains the terms of the issuance. However, the image on Williams' page is renamed "certificate.jpg", and is above the title "secret techniques", which is in reference to the content of the rest of the page which is "Saigo Ha Daito-Ryu
Okugi ( Oogi ) License". This image is not a certificate per se, and has nothing to do with Saigo-ha, secrets, or the Daito-ryu Okugi densho. Misleading and irrelevant? Just a little.

Under techniques, Williams claims that his line of Saigo-ha (from "Lin Po") contains all the techniques of all the lines of Daito-ryu, as well as many others. How could any one person possibly know what all the techniques are in Daito-ryu?!? If you know anything about Daito-ryu, you would know that this statement is comically wrong. BTW, Lin Po happens to be the name of the first form taught in the line of Northern Shaolin Kung Fu I studied. Probably a coincidence though, I'm sure.

Elsewhere it says: "SAIGO HA TAKEDA-RYU is a complete martial art! As such, it contains all types of foot strikes or kicks. (many outside DAITO-RYU CIRCLES don't realise that the SAIGO-HA TAKEDA-RYU branch has a wide - range of kicks which originated in Norther China ) These kicks are not relegated to strikes below the waist, but include fantastic high kicks, spinning kicks, jumping kicks and great kicking combination that rival any other martial art system!"

Karate anyone?

The whole web page is filled with such massive historical assumptions that it makes the historical lore passed down in orthodox Daito-ryu look air tight in comparison! It would take years to debate the misinformation found in these pages, and I've got to get some sleep if I'm going to be taking any "ukimi" tomorrow.

PS. Thanks for the kind words Guy (if you made it all the way through this post).

Oyasumi nasai,

George Kohler
4th May 2004, 14:51
Originally posted by Nathan Scott

[Mary, don't read this part]

<font size=1>BTW, did anyone else notice that Mary's phrasing, tone and posting style is pretty identical to that of John Williams' posts? I guess we'll start off with that "check the 'ol IP address thing" and go from there...</font>

Yes, I have. I'm going to track both user names, which are almost identical. I'll be back in a couple of hours.

George Kohler
4th May 2004, 18:51
It appears that Gunshi and journee are logging from the same place. :nono: Since their phrasing and posting style are identical, I can only assume that they are one and the same.

Nathan Scott
4th May 2004, 19:01
Dr. John, impersonating an objective third party to forward your claims is pretty weak. Would it be that hard to just drop the Daito-ryu and Saigo-ha claims and just let the quality of your teachings stand on their own merit? If you do, we promise to leave you alone! :)

John Connolly
4th May 2004, 19:26
Imagine his razor-tipped arrow island manhunt scenario... but now with a more "Dressed to Kill" flavor.

chrismoses
4th May 2004, 19:27
Originally posted by George Kohler
It appears that Gunshi and journee are logging from the same place. :nono: Since their phrasing and posting style are identical, I can only assume that they are one and the same.

Well I for one am shocked, SHOCKED I tell you!

Wait, no I'm not, just a little heartburn. That actually sounds par for the course. Never mind.

George Kohler
4th May 2004, 19:29
Nathan, I posted a message in the other forum. Please read.

Actually, I don't think it is John Williams. I believe the person posting might actually be his son, Steve Williams since the IP's are from St. John, NB.

Ron Tisdale
4th May 2004, 19:30
This surprises me not one bit. I'm sorry Nathan, that you were so kind to Marie...now he has info to use to correct his pages(somewhat). That was probably his plan all along.

Ron (it figures, they always act the same way)

Nathan Scott
4th May 2004, 20:43
Don't worry Ron, I didn't give him much ammo. Even if he were to re-word and correct the few things I pointed out, there is still an incredible amount of errors and oddities to be found on those pages!

Also, I firmly believe based on the writing style that the author is the same person, though it is not inconceivable that Dr. John might have gone to his son's house to post under his alternate name. Steve's writing is not the same style as his father's.

Ron Tisdale
4th May 2004, 21:12
No, and Steve tends to be much more obnoxious...dealt with him during my rec.martial-arts days. Whew! Now those were some strange posts!

Ron

glad2bhere
5th May 2004, 17:20
Dear Nathan, Ron et al:

I know people often reference Japanese nationals as pretty much the final say in what is and is not authentic DRAJJ. Is there some clearinghouse even if only defacto which can be contacted to validate someone's standing in DRAJJ? I get the impression that validation is rather an informal affair accomplished by a relatively small number of people it what is a rather small community. If this is true it seems to be a rather easy thing to identify folks who are only fabricating their position.

I guess to put this in simpler terms, if this person is not authentic, and it is relatively easy to prove that he is not, how is he meriting all this dialogue? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Mark Jakabcsin
6th May 2004, 18:15
Thanks to all participating in this thread. In my opinion this is by far the most entertaining thread of all time. ...............Well maybe the orginal Star Wars thread was on par but this one contains such an interesting group of real life characters it some how reaches new levels.

I hope that the Williams's (Cady, is that the correct plural for multiple Williams? Perhaps it is Williamses or Williamsi? Please correct. ;) ) hang in there with another reincarnation or two. My fear is that the village has called and well.......you know what they want back. That sure would kill a fun thread.

I sincerely hope I haven't plagiarized or 'plagerise' anyone with this post. Although as far as I can tell patronizing is still ok. :D

mark j.

JJW - Shoot traditional equipment instead of girly wheel bows.

Neil Yamamoto
6th May 2004, 18:45
Dear E-budo members,

Recently I discovered I have a split personality disorder. After months of testing, the doctors have told me the following personalities have been identified.

A typical third generation Japanese American Sansei who still likes Japanese food and aspects of the culture, but is well aware of the BS factor. Yet still has managed to find a personal balance that is mostly healthy aside from a predilection for good Scotch Whisky and beer.

A martial arts sensei that uses deceitful methods to indulge and satiate his greed and personal insecurities.
This “Deceiver” personality creates his own reality of lies and deludes him self into believing it so well, he convinces others into believing his story.

A poor little girl named “Mary” who hides behind the Deceiver sensei persona and clings to the hakama of the “Deceiver” since she is too fearful to grow up and venture forth on her own. Mainly used to play the poor me role and gives the outside world a sad face. Also used to give the “Deceiver Sensei “personality sympathy.

A sarcastic SOB with an overly sick and strange sense of humor, most of which is directed at people who this persona deems not worthy of breathing the oxygen resources of the world.

Gee, I might have something in common with ‘Profesor Williams’ and Mary after all. Can you tell which personality wrote this post?

Nathan, please feel free to delete if you think I crossed the line here. Course, I do that all the time…

Yours in the spirit of sarcasm

Neil “one of many” Yamamoto
neilyamamoto@comcast.net

John Connolly
6th May 2004, 18:57
Bruce,

"I guess to put this in simpler terms, if this person is not authentic, and it is relatively easy to prove that he is not, how is he meriting all this dialogue? Thoughts?"

Ever turned on a light and seen cockroaches scatter?

kenkyusha
6th May 2004, 19:14
Now multiple personality disorder. It's gonna be so confusing when we are possessed by you now Neil...

Be well,
Jigme

Contributing nothing but thread drift for more than 4 years.

Nathan Scott
6th May 2004, 19:18
Bruce, this forum is probably the closest thing to a AJJ BS meter. The legit AJJ world is quite small, and it is much easier to identify what IS NOT AJJ than what is.

While I agree that this thread has very high entertainment value*, it is also already 8 pages long, even after trimming. So let's try to keep the chatter to a minimum so we can maintain this threads value as an information resource as well.

Thanks!

<font size=1>* Speaking of entertainment value, one of my students just scored us another 5 Prof Ron tapes, and a sampler tape of other performers! Good times...</font>

glad2bhere
6th May 2004, 19:38
Dear John and Nathan:

"....Ever turned on a light and seen cockroaches scatter?...."

Ok. I think I have a better grip on whats happening here. I have to remind myself periodically that not EVERYTHING is a technical compare-and-contrast situation. Let me slip back into LM and see if I can benefit from folks who have a better grasp of the subject. :-)

Best Wishes,

Bruce

coldblood
8th May 2004, 05:14
Originally posted by Nathan Scott
Dr. John, impersonating an objective third party to forward your claims is pretty weak. Would it be that hard to just drop the Daito-ryu and Saigo-ha claims and just let the quality of your teachings stand on their own merit? If you do, we promise to leave you alone! :)


if the body of techniques as taught by john williams are technically the same as those found in dr, then what ? is this whole arguement merely semantics?

andrew holt

MarkF
8th May 2004, 05:50
Originally posted by coldblood
if the body of techniques as taught by john williams are technically the same as those found in dr, then what ? is this whole arguement merely semantics?

andrew holt


I doubt they are, but the basics of most taijutsu are similar. In the body of technique known as Kodokan Judo, aiki-like basics are found in many techniques, or transition of technique, but I wouldn't be tempted to call it Kodokan-ha Aikijudo, or even Kano-ha aikijudo.

As it seems to be made clear time and again, the point is NOT in the body of techniques, but in claims of such and actually calling something Daito Ryu when, even if it is in the semantics (which it isn't), even if it is exactly the same as every, single technique in mainline and other orthodox schools of DR AJJ, what Mr. Doctor Williams does or teaches, he has no right to call it Daito ryu.

It is not his to use.

Semantics? No. Plagiarism? Yes. Lots of words in this thread? Yes. Educational? I suppose so, but nothing new from John Williams and "his" Saigo-ha Daito ryu. It is the same BS today which made my meter do the "hippy-hippy shake" years ago.


Mark F.

kenkyusha
8th May 2004, 05:53
About a year ago, some friends and I attended a seminar co-taught by a Daito Ryu practitioner. The host of the seminar tried to get around an express provision of the guest instructor's group, (that techniques may not be videotaped) by 'demonstrating' them himself.

After the seminar, the (extremely uncomfortable) conversation at the dinner that followed was:

Guest instructor- Why did you do that when it is obvious that those techniques aren't Daito Ryu

Host- But I did what you did.

GI- no, you did what you thought I did. That isn't DR. It has none of the principles, none of the (actual phrase deleted) that really makes it work.

Host- But at least this way people can remember what they saw, or for people who weren't here, they have some idea of what you taught...

GI- Doesn't matter. What you did wasn't DR. You think that you can just say, "put your arm here, put your leg here" and poof, you get DR? What you did was steal technique. It's different...

(ad tedium). At any rate, the upshot of all of that was that (as the legit practitioner of DR said) Your whole worldview changes to accomodate the art. You don't squeeze one neat new thing you stole from a tape here, or there. Waza works because it is a portion of a larger, inclusive cohesive 'operating system'... in the case of Kindai-ha shootemupryu... just because it may follow the 'format' of DR, doesn't make it any more legitimate than the stolen waza from the seminar mentioned above.

Be well,
Jigme

(I don't do Aikijujutsu of any type, so my opinion w/a grain of salt).

Ron Tisdale
10th May 2004, 13:44
The fact of the matter is that usually the people who don't get this arguement, won't get it by us lecturing on it. They might get it if they step on the mat with the real thing...but even then (as in the story above) some people just lack integrity. That's just the way they are built. Shame, but what are you going to do? This thread is a hallmark of the tendency...Nathan should probably lock it and keep it in a place of prominance in the archive.

Ron

coldblood
12th May 2004, 03:19
"they might get it if they step on the mat with the real thing? "

you really just said that?

i get the argument . maybe he shouldn't call his art 'daito ryu' anything. he may be wrong about a lot of things, his web page may contain a bunch of errors, but to say 'step on the mat' after everyone here has refused to do so themselves for the other side.. thats a load of heifer dust.

correct me if i am wrong, but no one here except me has ever even met john williams much less stepped onto the mat with him or even any of his students correct?

how in hell would anyone _really_ know if what he taught was "the real thing" unless they stepped onto the mat with him?

especially with the implications earlier in this thread that he says what he says for money... the williams have never run a for profit dojo. ( at least not since i started with them in 1989)

suggesting that anyone who defends john lacks integrity, well.. thats pretty cheap as well. should that be what i expect from the people here? cheap shots and double standards?

andrew holt

glad2bhere
12th May 2004, 10:02
Dear Jigme:

".....GI- Doesn't matter. What you did wasn't DR. You think that you can just say, "put your arm here, put your leg here" and poof, you get DR? What you did was steal technique. It's different..."

I wish, somehow, magically, I could get this tattooed on the butts of many Hapkido practitioners across the face of the Earth. The only major difference I can see between your situation in DRAJJ and what I see in Hapkido is that in Hapkido the problem is systemic where the DRAJJ community is small enough to keep it down to personalities. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Ron Tisdale
12th May 2004, 14:29
"they might get it if they step on the mat with the real thing? "

you really just said that?

I most certainly did...but not as a challenge or a threat. As an exposure to Daito ryu technique, to gain the experience for direct comparison. My appologies if that offends.

I also don't see why you take umbrage at the rest of my post. You assume I am slighting you in some way. I don't think I know you well enough to do that. But, if the words I wrote strike closer than I may have thought...you may want to consider them a bit. In any case, I hope you continue to contribute, and forgive any impertinance on my part.

Ron Tisdale

Gary Gabelhouse
12th May 2004, 19:03
Hello All,

This amazing Dr./Soke Williams epic did surface a question.

As a preface . . . I am only somewhat aware of inter-organizational sniping within the world of Daitoryu Aikijujutsu--especially with regard to who's got the real magilla, or who got the Menkyo Kaiden--and from whom . . . etc. ad nauseum.

That said, I was taught by and received dan ranking in Daitoryu Aikijujitsu from Kenkichi Ohgami-Sensei in Nishinomiya. He was one of Takuma Hisa's senior students and initially helped in forming the Takuma-Kai before opening his own dojo, the Daibukan.

Now, I teach in our Dojo what I call Daitoryu Aikijujitsu. Since the Daibukan is not one of the "mainstream" Daitoryu organizations, am I teaching Daitoryu? Seems like I am ;-) That's what Ohgami Sensei always calls it.

Best Regards,
Gary Gabelhouse

P.S. Ohgami-Sensei's English version of his book, "In Pursuit of Dreams: My Aikijujitsu" is scheduled to be published this year by the Lyons Press. The book includes an official biography of Takuma Hisa--very interesting stuff and quite moving.

Ron Tisdale
12th May 2004, 19:54
Nathan can answer that better than I, but I don't know what else you'd call it :) But can't you see the difference here between what you are doing and the other example? If not, I'd be awfully surprised...

The issue is not whether it's 'mainstream' or 'small'...

Ron

Nathan Scott
12th May 2004, 23:52
For those within the Daito-ryu "stream", or community, there are varying levels of perceived legimitacy. This legitimacy is based mostly on the level of direct initiation and credentialing of those breaking off from their teacher's line. In the case where there is an acknowledged headmaster (which there isn't in Daito-ryu), the legitimacy is also based on the continued relationship - or not - with the current head of the system. Such a headmaster may at any given time decide to deny usage of the art root name, and if they are recognized and respected, would be within their rights to do so. Ability counts for something, but for those with ability and not the experience or credentials necessary to really qualify the use of the art name, it is usually best to just make up a different name.

In the case of those fabricating histories or claims to a given art, that is a completely different story.

If anyone else has anything of value to contribute to the subject of J. Williams, you're welcome to post it. However, unsupportable emotional banter is really not useful in a thread of this length.

Regards,

Kobe
14th May 2004, 04:40
Originally posted by Gary Gabelhouse
Hello All,

This amazing Dr./Soke Williams epic did surface a question.

As a preface . . . I am only somewhat aware of inter-organizational sniping within the world of Daitoryu Aikijujutsu--especially with regard to who's got the real magilla, or who got the Menkyo Kaiden--and from whom . . . etc. ad nauseum.

That said, I was taught by and received dan ranking in Daitoryu Aikijujitsu from Kenkichi Ohgami-Sensei in Nishinomiya. He was one of Takuma Hisa's senior students and initially helped in forming the Takuma-Kai before opening his own dojo, the Daibukan.

Now, I teach in our Dojo what I call Daitoryu Aikijujitsu. Since the Daibukan is not one of the "mainstream" Daitoryu organizations, am I teaching Daitoryu? Seems like I am ;-) That's what Ohgami Sensei always calls it.

Best Regards,
Gary Gabelhouse

P.S. Ohgami-Sensei's English version of his book, "In Pursuit of Dreams: My Aikijujitsu" is scheduled to be published this year by the Lyons Press. The book includes an official biography of Takuma Hisa--very interesting stuff and quite moving.

Do you mean aikijujutsu?

chrismoses
14th May 2004, 15:44
Aikijujitsu/ Aikijujutsu same diff. Jujitsu is just out of favor these days as the correct romaji. When my teacher left Japan everything written in romaji said "jitsu," last time we went back everything said "jutsu."

Nathan Scott
21st May 2004, 19:44
Dear Mr. Morrell,

I have in fact received your email, PM, voice mail message, and E-budo reported post.

From yesterday's PM:


Nathan,

As you have chosen to ignore the email i sent you i will send you this short but to the point message.

I have not ignored your email from 5 days ago, but have simply not had time to reply to it yet. I get a lot of emails (and 10 times more SPAM), and do not always have time to reply immediately to each one. In your case, I also wanted to have a look at your webpages to familiarize myself with them before offering a reply. So rest assured that you have my attention now.

As far as correspondance, I'd prefer to answer you publicly, in the context of this thread if you don't mind. Anything we have to say to each other regarding this subject should be suitable for public consumption as far as I am concerned. I'm not interested in calling each other names in private.


If you guys actually put as much time into training as you do into bitching about John then you'd all be Grand Masters by now!!!.

You'd be suprised how much some of us (but surely not all) train, and I'm sure this will be a surprise to you, being a Soke and all, but not all of us want to be labeled "Grand Masters". I train in traditional arts in order to develop real ability, and frankly, that is the main thing I care about and respect in others. Corny titles do nothing to make my technique better, so ya'll can keep 'em.


As moderator your job is keep things "pleasant", but instead you allow all this mud slinging.

Yes, my job is to provide and maintain a generally pleasant discussion atmosphere. But the focus of this forum, as stated in my intro at the top, is to provide an academic-type forum for others to learn in. A big part of that is the historical/educational discussions, another part of that is our dojo finder, and yet another part are the discussions of well known personalities who make various claims to AJJ arts - both good and bad. Mud slinging is not necessary, but educating the public as to what they are walking into when they are considering training with someone is an important service that we will continue to provide here (and everywhere else on the net, BTW).

But do not be mistaken - none of us are here to say who someone should or should not train with. That is something each person should decide based on their own research and judgement, this being one place they can research. We are also not here to debate the ability level of anyone, since this is subject to the experience level of the beholder, and cannot be fairly discussed objectively over the net. This is something an individual must judge for themselves (either in person or on video).


Do any of you think that anybody actually cares what you say or think?

Yes.


As a friend and associate of John's you really p**s me off!! I have only just joined E-budo and in that time have seen nothing that inspires me to stay. Just alot of back stabbing and bitching, its very big and hard to slag off a guy on the other side of the world or in another country.

I'm sorry to hear that you are upset. You seem to be posting pretty actively here for someone who is not inspired to stay.

Here is the funny thing though, and by the way, the reason why I am not going to delete this thread: this discussion is based almost completely on what John Williams has advertised on the internet since nearly the beginning of the internet. We did not start making up funny things to say about him. I and others have known about Mr. Williams for many years, but it was not until Mr. Canali (the person who started this thread) asked for feedback on Williams' webpage that the subject even came up here. When you post a massive amount of claims such as Mr. Williams has on the internet for years, it is simply a matter of time before those on the internet find them and begin to ask questions. Do you understand? It is not up to us to bite our tongues because Mr. Williams is the person who promoted you from 2/4th dan to 7th dan Soke, but rather it is for Mr. Williams to either present himself accurately and professionaly in his advertisements, or, to desist in making claims that he cannot support in any way while teaching his art to the public.

As far as e-budo goes, like everywhere, there are great forums and more out of control forums here. This is not a reflection so much on e-budo as it is on human nature though. Unfortunately, many people DO like to simply sling mud, and will spend all of their time doing so on the net. That is why we had to create a bad budo forum here, so that all the forums would not be dominated with these personalities. Interestingly, it looks as though all of the 21 posts you've made so far on e-budo have been in these forums. If you don't want to read such threads, don't go to those forums. Or, don't come to e-budo. I find it hard to believe that all of your "8,000" kids/members read e-budo, but if there is no value to the forums here then don't waste your time reading through and contributing to them. I will say this though - if you don't like e-budo, you REALLY are not going to like the other discussion forums on the internet.


I was actually going to post this to the thread, but then i would not lower myself to the same level as the rest!

Like I said, I really am not interested in private correspondances or undocumentable phone conversations about this. I've been there and done that. As far as I'm concerned, this is not personal, but professional. Anything you or others have to say about the subject should be suitable for public evaluation.

To answer some of the questions in your email, this thread - to my judgement - does fit within the goals I listed in the posting guidelines thread at the top of this forum, and there is nothing liable in this thread that would qualify for a law suit. Mr. Williams is not the first person to be upset about being exposed on the internet, but if there was content in this thread, when read within context that was clearly liable, it would have been edited.

Also, IMO this thread IS in the "true spirit of budo".

Many of us have invested a great deal of passion and energy into the study of legitimate budo, and it only takes a handful of bad apples to taint the public perception of what we are trying to do. As such, we all have a valid interest in familiarizing ourselves with the various characters in our field.

I and others do in fact have the balls to confront people personally about issues such as these. E-budo is the most popular place on the internet for martial art discussions. We are not exactly hiding in the darkest corner of the internet foundlessly slinging mud. There have been a number of times that I and others have directly approached individuals being discussed here to solicit their point of view. But in most cases, we have already heard their claims as advertised on their webpages, and that is how a thread starts in the first place. Hearing more of the same before getting feedback from third parties is really not useful.

You may have also noticed that Mr. Williams did come on and contribute to this thread, but chose to challenge us rather than address any of the issues we raised here. After failing at convincing us, he logged on under a fake name and tried to defend himself again. In short, Mr. Williams has done far more harm to his reputation here than any of us could have. Maybe you should be upset with him?

I am the moderator of this forum, but I am also a contributor, and have the right to express my opinion about various subjects just like everyone else here has. In the absense of hard facts to support my opinions, they will be judged on my reputation and background. Reputation is a subjective perception, but my background can be found easily at the bottom of every post that I make. I assume that is how you found my email address and phone number. I'm not hiding behind a computer, and readers can take my opinions for whatever they think they are worth to them. Personally, I wish everyone had a link to their background and credentials, along with contact information, at the bottom of their posts as well. But that is a personal choice, and I choose to be held accountable for my words or actions.


Yours extremely annoyed and disgusted,

Andrew Morrell
President Cobra Martial Arts Association - England.
__________________
Andrew Morrell
Cobra Martial Arts Association

Mr. Morrell, I can understand why you are upset with e-budo, since all of these recent threads pertain to your organizations:

Another Soke Organization! (http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=25382)
Soke Iemoto History (William's ISHH version) (http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=26033)
International Society of Headfamilies and Headfounders (http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21652)
Soke Boards (http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23572)

Mr. Williams appears to be the founder and head of the ISHH, which issued you your 7th dan and "Soke" title.

In regards to your 7th dan menjo:

http://www.cmaauk.com/certificates/ishh_japanese_nanadan.jpg

Mr. Williams signed it with the titles "Dai Shogun, Gunshi" (Great Shogun & Teacher of War)! Great Shogun?!? You expect your peers to respect these titles? If your market is the kids class, then I wouldn't worry about what your peers think of you. But don't try to bust our nuts for not being impressed by such choices in titles and art names. I offer this as one more example of where we are coming from.

Feel free to reply to this if you still have some unanswered questions or comments that pertain to this subject.

Regards,

Walker
21st May 2004, 21:54
Mr. Williams signed it with the titles "Dai Shogun, Gunshi" (Great Shogun & Teacher of War)! Great Shogun?!? You expect your peers to respect these titles?As Nathan is too polite to laugh out loud at this, allow me.

BWA HA HA HA HA!

can... not... stand... up... :toot

cobra
21st May 2004, 22:26
Nathan,

If you check your facts you will find that:

a) i do not use the title or any title for that matter.
b) my highest rank is 6th.

As for the rest i will leave you all to bitch away as it seems pointless even bothering with you.

The Martial Arts is NO PLACE FOR POLITICS! You should all remember that.

As for my Market being Kids, this is my hobby not my job. When the Martial Arts of what ever style becomes motivated by money then that is very sad.

As for my students etc respecting me there is no problem there we are all equals, as i said i dont use titles.

I will leave you all now to hack away at each other or who ever you want to who cares, as long as it makes you all very happy.

Best regards,

Neil Yamamoto
21st May 2004, 23:08
Mr. Morell posted:

"The Martial Arts is NO PLACE FOR POLITICS!"

More than anything else you have posted, this comment shows you don't have many years in training or experience. Sarcasm intended.

Good luck in your martial arts training, Mr. Morell. No sarcasm meant in this sentiment.

cobra
21st May 2004, 23:09
Sorry guys,

Neil i have 20 years, and i stand by my statement. Thank you for your good wishes, i return them to you in kind.

Nathan if you read my profile correctly you will see that it was'nt John who promoted me in rank for my own style. This was done by 2 8th dans in the UK as i would not accept it from anyone outside that did not know me.

Maybe i made a mistake getting involved with the ISHH, maybe i did'nt. All i do know is that in the time i have know John he has always been respectull and very helpfull towards me and mine.

You all have your opinion of him, i have mine so lets leave it at that. As you said Nathan this is not personal so lets keep it that way shall we?

I appologise for getting annoyed about it - but then i always defend my friends.

Regards,

John Connolly
21st May 2004, 23:17
Cobra,

Please don't make us all beat you to death with the obvious stick here. Have you read the entirety of this thread? If you are seriously defending the credentials of Mr. Williams/Mary, then you must not have read it.

Regardless of how you view his niceness (man hunt with razor-tipped arrows) or abilities (able to shoot through a bear), it just doesn't make him a legitimate DR practitioner. If he were to make honest claims, such as "I teach Such-Such Ryu, a Gendai system, which I think is super effective and great", then no one here would have a single issue with the man.

That is all there is to it!

Nathan Scott
22nd May 2004, 06:10
Mr. Morrell,

Don't worry, I'm not out to get you or anything. As far as I'm concerned, people can issue each other whatever titles they like. Each rank and title is carries respect equal to that of the issuing organization.


a) i do not use the title or any title for that matter.

I know you've been saying on the net that you don't "claim any titles", but let's be real about it - you list your ranks and titles on the net, including the "honorary" ones of 6th dan/ Soke, along with the dates in which you expect to get promoted next (that's a new one). Posting titles on the net is the same as claiming a title, whether you ask your students to call you that or not. And by the way, I couldn't help but notice that the black belt you're wearing says (in English) "Master" on one side, and your name on the other.


b) my highest rank is 6th.

As far as the certificate I posted here of yours, I didn't get "my facts" on your dan rank from your web page, but rather, from reading the certificate. It is titled "Yudansha" and says something about being issued a Nanadan (7th dan) in the Martial art of the Cobra. The title on your name, FYI, is Soshi-sha. But don't take my word for it - check the ISHH site under your name. They have you listed as a 7th dan there too.

**

As far as politics goes, unfortunately, once you get more than one person in the same room, you have politics. It may not be the way we would like it to be, but it is the way it is.

It's nice that you feel some obligation or friendship towards Mr. Williams. Everyone needs friends. There are specific issues we have raised with him here, and who he should be friends with was not one of them! ;)

Anyway, I'm fine with moving on. Live and learn buddy.

Regards,

cxt
22nd May 2004, 15:00
You know just once, just one time I would like to read a post involving a student of a proven faker (like Williams) that when confronted with the mountian of evidence and self contridictory statements of the "master" does any of the following things.


1- Express some anger at being tricked and hoodwinked--instead of blindly attempting to defend them.

2- Express regret at being hoodwinked.

3- Make a polite request to be directed to an actual,legetiment (sp) teacher.


Hey being a good friend and standing up for your friends are important and honorable things.

BUT

Allowing your "friends" to lie is NOT honorable.
Supporting your "friends" lies is NOT honorable.
Defending your "friends" lies is NOT honorable.
Attacking the folks that expose your "friends" lies is NOT honorable.

A "real" friend would look after his mate and help him get back on track.

Heavy sigh


Chris Thomas

cobra
22nd May 2004, 22:45
Hi Nathan,

Firstly please call me Andrew, there is no need to be formal with me.

I had not noticed that on the ISHH site, there are 2 pages on there and the other one says 6th – it may be a typo. Thanks for pointing it out. I have also removed the cert from my profile, as that is the wrong one as well.

I agree with your point about showing my grades but allow me explain why they are on there. If this sounds like an advert it was not meant to.

The C.M.A.A. is becoming one of the largest Multi Style Groups in the UK (which is a very small place when compared to where you are!) due to the fact we do not govern, intefere or charge for club membership or for that matter charge club Instructors for hardly anything as it is not run as a bsuiness. We have many different styles with us now and I had listed my grades so that prospective members can see if I have experience in their style and to what level which may help when deciding to join us or not - to some this does not matter, but to others it is very important. My next estimated grade dates are listed for the same reason (to show where i am upto) as in the UK we tend to grade or be awarded on time as long as we are still very active. For example you notice that my Karate & Kickboxing 5th Dans are both due any time now, but it may be years before they arrive it is up to the awarding body (the World Karate & Kickboxing Association http://www.worldkickboxingassociation.com/).

The belt I am wearing with the word MASTER on it refers to a group I am a member of in the UK and this is their logo. They are called Karate Master – not Master in the way you think buddy. It is made up a quite a few senior very well respected English Instructors. I wear that belt as it is my membership belt and carries no grade markings. Here is the link for you have a look for yourself http://www.karate-master.co.uk/founder-members.asp

I hope this helps clear things up as with regards to E-budo I have come in at a bad time, but I plan to stick around for a while to get the real picture so to speak.

Hello again Chris, good to talk to you again, you have a very good point there – but to be fair in the time I have known him he has not told me anything that has been proven to be untrue nor has he mentioned anything relating to the content of this thread – so who knows mate?

Thanks again for your input Chris.

I will now respectfully bow out of this thread, as I have said what i came to and know nothing about the style.

Talk to you soon,

Andy.
;)

cxt
23rd May 2004, 23:12
Cobra

Despite what you may think I was NOT specifically refering to you.

Just a general observation and complaint that I have made prior and in all probabily will make again.

Seems to be a repeated act.

Rather than accecpt the fact that a given person has been playing it "fast and loose" with the truth--and deal with the fall-out.
Many folks would rather hang on like grim death to the fantasy the "master" has spun.

In Williams case you should go back and read thu come of the dreck he posted on this thread.

he was asked some tough questions (not all involving martial arts--but delt with some odd statements he made) as far as I can tell he was unable or unwilling to provide clear answers.

I see that as a problem.

Some don't.

And thats the way of things.

Chris Thomas

George Kohler
29th June 2004, 16:35
Check this website out. http://juliancollege.com/legitimate.html

He calls several of our members here "slimy" including me.

Walker
29th June 2004, 16:55
Note* This information can be used freely and without charge providing that it is not used to attempt to discredit the Saigo-Ha Daito-Ryu art, other daito-ryu systems or teachers, or it's current headmasters Oops! :eek:

Neil Yamamoto
29th June 2004, 17:05
From the link posted above:

These slimy people included : John McGee (CA), Cado Goldfield, (CA), Eric Joyce (AZ), Ron Tisdale (Phili, PA), George Kohler, Chris Moses, John Conneley, Gene Williams (Phenix, AZ) Chris Thomas, Dan Harden (MA), Chris Moses (CA), and Nathan Scott (CA), and a few others. (obviously, deranged and demented souls)

I am so bummed, my name isn't on the list!! I thought my post was rather pointed with jagged edges. I guess my ability to provoke people has been lost. Or I didn't extend enough ki.[

George Kohler
29th June 2004, 17:13
Originally posted by Neil Yamamoto
Or I didn't extend enough ki.

Your losing your touch, Neil.

tsurashi shondo
29th June 2004, 17:14
these cats are really truly demented. living the lie full time.
At the very bottom of the page, he makes the claim that they put the "100 principles" on the internet first. In 1986!
What internet in 1986?...... :rolleyes:

Cady Goldfield
29th June 2004, 17:41
Don't feel bad, Neil. He has Gene Williams as hailing from AZ, when Gene's from GA. And, he spelled my first name incorrectly, and got my home state wrong, too. :rolleyes:

Ron Tisdale
29th June 2004, 17:56
At least he got my name right! And my location. Maybe I'll get a visit. Sorry Neil, maybe if you debunk that noxious web site he'll add your name to the page...

Teehee...

Ron :)

(shucks, my name on his site will probably be my only claim to fame in life! I wonder if I could get it bronzed...)

chrismoses
29th June 2004, 18:13
I freakin' rule, I'm in there twice! Booooo-Ya!

Cady Goldfield
29th June 2004, 18:13
Ron, you obviously haven't Googled your name.
Go to Google right now and key in "Ron Tisdale."

No claims to fame, my patoot. :p

George Kohler
29th June 2004, 18:28
Originally posted by Ron Tisdale
(shucks, my name on his site will probably be my only claim to fame in life! I wonder if I could get it bronzed...)

Nah, you only get 15 mins of fame.

George Kohler
29th June 2004, 18:30
Originally posted by Cady Goldfield

No claims to fame, my patoot. :p

At least we can call you "Cado" :D

Cady Goldfield
29th June 2004, 18:36
...I always wanted to have a name that sounds sorta like the Green Hornet's sidekick... :rolleyes:

P.S. Actually, Kato had quite a side kick!

Cady Goldfield
29th June 2004, 18:39
George,
Some of Ron's poetry comes up on Google. That's gotta be better than bronzing a name on a deranged website. :D

Ron Tisdale
29th June 2004, 19:16
yeah, well, that was from another life! I don't even write anymore, mostly. :) And I'm pretty sure no one is going to bronze it!

RT

elder999
29th June 2004, 21:45
He left me off, though...hehe.
Maybe we got left off 'cause he knows who we are, Neil...:up:

cxt
29th June 2004, 23:39
Oh my freaking Gawd!!

Just checked out the dreck oops! I mean the "article" posted by the Williams camp. (see above link)

Have not had a chance to throughly read thu--but what I have noticed so far is just a bit to the left of insanity.

1st Quick question--if you have enough detail to post a 16 page article--then why in gods name do you not post it on e-budo and confront your ditactors (sp) man-to-man???

Rather than just post on a "partisn" site.

Only thing I can think of is that many of the e-budo set actually trained in Japan under well-known masters and would be able to shred it apart.

2nd Lets just look a the very first page--to quote

"The Japanese interacted with the Chinese for over a 1000 years, they "borrowed" thier language..........Since the Chinese arts included some very polished kicking techniques does it seem logical that th eJapanese samurai would not learn how to do them and how to effectively defend against them with or without armor."

What??

Ok just for the sake of argument--name just one single, JUST ONE classicial ryu that contains the same type of high and flying kicks found in say Northern Shaolin---good luck.

Then we have:

"Now look at the people claiming to be Daito Masters: Not one could could defend agaisnt a good kicker, let alone kick themselves."

Err, Ok--how exactly do you KNOW that "not one could defend agasit a good kicker."

Made many trips to Japan have you?? See ALOT of Daito master--heck Daito experts face "good kickers" have you??

And when did you do this? How many encounters did you see?? What were there names??

This dreck could not pass a freshman level Logic class let alone be considered "good source" material.

No wonder the rube didn't have the stones to post it anywhere but where the "true belivers" could see it.

Heck, I be shamed to even have my name on it.

Is a funny read though.

Chris Thomas

John Connolly
30th June 2004, 00:55
This site gives me a warm feeling in my tummy.

Ooop. Just gas...

Eric Joyce
30th June 2004, 18:30
Originally posted by Neil Yamamoto
From the link posted above:

These slimy people included : John McGee (CA), Cado Goldfield, (CA), Eric Joyce (AZ), Ron Tisdale (Phili, PA), George Kohler, Chris Moses, John Conneley, Gene Williams (Phenix, AZ) Chris Thomas, Dan Harden (MA), Chris Moses (CA), and Nathan Scott (CA), and a few others. (obviously, deranged and demented souls)

[

Kinda nice to be slimy, especially if I am mentioned along with others I have respect for :).

kenkyusha
1st July 2004, 22:07
When did you change your name and move cross country? Wait, an inaccuracy... on that site? The devil you say...

Be well,
Jigme

Mark Jakabcsin
2nd July 2004, 04:25
Neil wrote: ".......and a few others. (obviously, deranged and demented souls)

I am so bummed, my name isn't on the list!! I thought my post was rather pointed with jagged edges. I guess my ability to provoke people has been lost. Or I didn't extend enough ki."

Neil,
Perhaps you are included as 'a few others.' I'm thinking this has to be a height joke....you know, you were over looked. I say dust off the Star Wars analogies and counter attack.

For those that made the list I want to extend my sincere congradulations....mixed with a little envy. I guess that's what I get for not posting much anymore. Job well done!

mark j.

cxt
2nd July 2004, 15:41
Here is the critical point where Williams and his ilk and the folks on this website diverge.

Here Williams and anyone who supports him is allowed to speak.

They can defend, reply, counter points, and post their proofs.

They can argue and explain. Present evidence and support their claims.

Sure they take abuse when its warrented.

But Williams and his supporters CHOOSE not to come here and defend their claims--they pretty much run away when faced with any opposition--not what I would call the mark of a guy claiming to posses or teach any sort of martial values.

Williams is his OWN worst enemy here.

But the real "tell" (to use a gambling term) is that Williams and his supporters post name calling articles BUT THEY REFUSE TO ALLOW ANYONE TO CHALLANGE THE VALIDITY OF THE ARTICE.

You are not allowed to log onto his website and argue about it. You can't post counter-evidence and you can't attack his claims or defend yours.

I have to ask--what is he and his group afraid of??

Why are they so scared of honest evaluation of thier claims?

Why not allow folks to debate the claims made by his article?

Bottom line--he was given the opportunity to do so here--he refuses to allow anyone the same level of courtsy.

Thats all I really need to know about the guy.

Chris Thomas

Cady Goldfield
2nd July 2004, 16:31
Originally posted by kenkyusha
When did you change your name and move cross country? Wait, an inaccuracy... on that site? The devil you say...

Be well,
Jigme

:laugh:

And I thought I already had a killer commute getting to class at Dan Harden's dojo. At least they got his name and locale right. :p

MarkF
4th July 2004, 10:44
But the real "tell" (to use a gambling term) is that Williams and his supporters post name calling articles BUT THEY REFUSE TO ALLOW ANYONE TO CHALLANGE THE VALIDITY OF THE ARTICE.


I wouldn't call it a "tell," exactly. Tells are subtle and only the very experienced gambler can see them in a real poker game (not to be confused with the "all in" World Poler Tour).

When I was reading that page, I, by habit, kept looking for the "Post Reply" button.;)

But in gross terms, it is one, big tell, that is for sure.


Mark

cxt
6th July 2004, 16:59
Mark

Your right.

Huge overstatment to imply ANY form of subtle action on these guys.

I should have siad something along the lines of:

"Could not catch a clue,if they slathered themselves with clue musk, used the clue mating call, and did the clue mating dance at high noon during the peak of clue mating season."

But that is kinda insulting to clues.

By the way--did you check out the special "posture" used by there OWN SPECIAL KYUJUTSU (archery) tradition.

The picture and verbage will kill you.


Chris Thomas

Nathan Scott
7th July 2004, 05:10
As others have pointed out, it's interesting that they chose to reply to the issues and questions we raised on their own webpage instead of simply talking to us here:

http://juliancollege.com/legitimate.html

I know this is not necessary, and a waste of time, but what the hell - just in case...

On this new page, linked above, they say that Daito-ryu is based on the 100 principles they have listed on their pages. That'd be no. Let's look at some of their 100 principles:

Gamma Motor System, Potential limitations, P.N.F (CRAC/CR/RCR), Generalization, Interactions Of Principals To Meet Changes, etc. etc.

I wonder what the original Japanese names were for these 100 "ancient" principles? I'd love to hear them, and the explanation of all 100 principles. I have a feeling that you'd hear about 5 or 10 things re-worded slightly - over and over up to one hundred.

Funny too - they say these 100 principles were taught by Saigo Tanomo, but then title them "Takeda" principles elsewhere.

Later in this page, they propose the assumption that since Chinese arts include polished kicking techniques, that doesn't it seem logical that the Japanese samurai would learn how to do them, and how to defend against them - with or without armor.

No, it doesn't!

It wouldn't be necessary to defend against such kicks while wearing armor because such kicks would be ineffective against armor. Ever try to do a jumping side kick in armor? Why kick when you have weapons anyway? There are some "kicks" in Japanese budo, but they are not the dynamic Chinese style kicks endorsed by this group.

Next, they ask that - if karate was influenced by Chinese arts, why is it not possible that Daito-ryu was influenced as well? Because Karate was developed in Okinawa, and Daito-ryu was developed mostly in the middle of the Japanese island of Honshu. Japan and Okinawa didn't used to get along, and had very different cultures (combatively). This may be news to them, but Karate was not a Japanese martial art originally. Also, there are a number of surviving branches of Daito-ryu that can attest that there are no kung-fu kicks in the art, for whatever that is worth.

Next, they say that all the people claiming to be "Daito-ryu Masters" (?) cannot kick or defend against kicks, and go on to say that because of this, and the fact that they don't know the "100 principles" they are trying to sell the world that everyone else is running a scam. This doesn't even warrant comment.

BTW, being "asian" or not has nothing to do with not being accepted as knowledgable or legitimately trained in Daito-ryu. That's just an ethnic cop-out.

And finally, "the eyebrow-raising essay on Kondo-Sensei and the E-Budo scam".

Nice one.

Here they side with an essay written by one of the former Daitokan Italian students - but clearly do not understand the specifics of the issues being debated. For example, the Williams' insist that the art must be passed down within the bloodline, and that everyone else teaching the Daito-ryu of Takeda Sokaku are illegitimate. Here is a heads up: the former Daitokan members aren't recognizing either of Tokimune's daughters as their soke, but rather, one of the daughters' husbands, who is not of blood relation and didn't even have training in Daito-ryu last time I checked. Oops.

Also, Williams claims that these forums support Hatsumi Masaki, Obata Toshishiro, Tanemura Shoto, Kondo Katsuyuki, and Stan "Prenin" as the only true Daito-Ryu leaders around today! Uhh, how did Hatsumi, Obata and Pranin become Daito-ryu "leaders"?!? But Shawn Graham, Sogawa Kazuoki and John Denora are all more credible? Funny ya'll would know each other. BTW, Kondo Sensei owns the rights to the Takeda-bishi mon you have plastered all over your webpages, FYI.

Williams' claims that the only legitimate Daito-ryu is their Saigo-ha, aside from maybe Kaze Arashi-ryu (see elsewhere in this forum for feedback on KAR). The rest are just modern versions of goshin-jutsu. You're making lots of friends out there guys, keep it up.

But the Best Part:

The Williams' claim that the contributors, moderator (me I guess) and administrator of e-budo all conspired against them for some reason to fabricate phoney posts under their names (and others)!!! Come on pal, we have your IP addresses logged here. Even John Denora didn't try to weasle out of his self-administered character assasination by claiming that someone else was posting phoney posts under his name. That is REALLY weak. Ya'll are free to rebut here anytime you like, and we could arrange to have an objective party examine the IP addresses still logged on this forum.

Williams calls most of us here (by name) slimy, deranged, demented, lowlifes and morons - but he is too mature to enter into debates with us?

E-budo is discrediting Saigo-ha - seems to me that Saigo-ha is discrediting Saigo-ha just fine all by itself.

Steve Williams wrote in the shinkendo.com guestbook in June of 2003, "Remember that to true traditional Japanese budo, lineage is everything and your art has it."

Agreed. Thanks for making my point.

Regards,

Nathan Scott
7th July 2004, 05:31
Gee guys, I've been thinking, and I just feel awful about the Williams' feeling like they did not get a fair shake here.

I don't know if they are just hungry for more attention and publicity, of if they sincerely feel slighted, but I decided to post threads to other forums for them in order to offer them a chance to get more polite, objective feedback elsewhere:


Saigo-ha Daito-ryu/ John J. Williams (Canada)

Hi all,

I'm posting this subject here in hopes of giving John J. Williams and his son Steve Williams a fair shake. They are apparently unhappy with the unprofessional and impolite discussion we had about their webpages over at e-budo.com, so being fairminded and against "censorship", I'd like to make sure that they can get an opportunity to discuss the subject elsewhere. As such, I won't be contributing further to the thread here, and would ask that those involved in the discussion at e-budo do the same.

Everything you need to know about this line of Saigo-ha Daito-ryu and John/Steve Williams from Canada can be found at the following links:

Main webpages:
http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/4856/
http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/1235/

Their "Julian College Arts & Sciences", martial art instructor certification:
http://juliancollege.com/martial.html

Recent writings on Daito-ryu succession and their problems on e-budo:
http://juliancollege.com/legitimate.html

Have direct experience with them, or seen a video? Post your opinions here. Looked through the above pages and formed an opinion? Post them here. All contributions welcome, for or against.

Thanks for your attention,

Nathan Scott

If you'd like to follow the discussions, I've posted the above post to the following boards:

Aikido Journal Forums; Daito-ryu - General; Saigo-ha Daito-ryu/ John J. Williams (Canada) (http://www.aikidojournal.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=66069)

The Bugei Sword Discussion Forum Forum; Aiki/Jujutsu; Saigo-ha Daito-ryu/ John J. Williams (Canada) (http://swordforumbugei.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2059)

BudoSeek! Forums; Japanese Arts; Japanese Arts (General);
Saigo-ha Daito-ryu/ John J. Williams (Canada) (http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=53871)

Samurai Bujutsu Forums; Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu; Saigo-ha Daito-ryu/ John J. Williams (Canada) (http://p199.ezboard.com/fsamuraibujutsudaitoryuaikijujutsu.showMessage?topicID=45.topic)

If I missed any, let me know! ;)

I suppose we've worn out the subject here, but I hope they get a warmer, more thoughtful reception at the other forums.

Best of luck to ya,

Shison
7th July 2004, 06:02
First, I'm glad that E-budo is back (yeah!)
Next, is this thread still going around? These folks need to give up and take up something a little easier to forge credentials in. I figured that this thread would be dead by now, because they really do't ahve a leg to stand on.

We (As in the members of E-budo who are more knowledgeable than myself) tried being nice, we tried taking it a step further and showing them the problems in their "style". I remember reading something about two rebukes then wash your hands of the matter...

MarkF
7th July 2004, 11:52
"Could not catch a clue,if they slathered themselves with clue musk, used the clue mating call, and did the clue mating dance at high noon during the peak of clue mating season."


Now that isn't a tell, that's a tackle, but That's what I mean.

I've been reading/commenting about John Willimas and his clan since about 1999 and probably started a few fiery threads as well back then so looking in on them isn't exactly a pastime anymore, it's a waste of time.

But, as Nathan says, "What the hell..."


Thanks, Nathan, this could ring in an entirely new web page on you alone.[-)


Mark

Nathan Scott
7th July 2004, 19:47
Hi Mark,

I reckon you just made their list.


Thanks, Nathan, this could ring in an entirely new web page on you alone.[-)

Hey, I was done with this whole thing. Seems to me that sometimes it's better just to leave things alone, since they can always get worse, but I know there are a lot of people who can't see that.

Regards,

Mekugi
8th July 2004, 09:05
I asked Fat Ba$tard what he thought and well, his response is blunt, although to the point:

cobra
8th July 2004, 23:17
Hi Guys, me again.

Hello Nathan, i have been monitoring this thread, out of interest, since i bowed out and have read through the replies to your postings on the other forums. Out of all of them this one struck me as saying it all:

Posted by Shadow Warrior:

QUOTE

Hoping to see an end to this
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I feel posting my opinions here is even ground.

For years I have been observing this entanglement of posting that has reached high levels of emotion in trying to establish and discredit Mr. Williams and Saigo-ha. I have read the embattlement between that has been going on with Tokimune's students, and the allegations of K. Kondo and S. Pranin motives as discussed on the given Web Page, and other forums. A lot of politicking by everyone. It is very embarrassing to Daito Ryu as a whole, not to mention really tiresome to read. There is no end point to finalize this affair. A bottomless pit of unpleasantness.

"Old ground is a pasture for cow patties. It is best to get on new ground. " Because of the unrelentless unpleasent discussions that has formed this topic, a person like me loses interest quickly, and doesn't care if the whole art vanished off the face of the earth. This is true at the point of redundant mud slinging to discredit the other party. We get enough of this in Government election campaigns.

This whole affair is stale and only effects the accused and those who make the accusations. People on their own accord make their own evaluations. Once that is done the make a choice or a decision. Let me state their isn't a whole lot of people standing on the fence on this issue. People either have already made up their mind on which side of the fence their are on before saying a word. Or they are standing on the fence leaning toward their preferred side that fits them best.

The situation between Tokimune's students and which one(s) shall head the main line school is impotent. With all the efforts on both sides to prove who is the heir(s) over the years people have committed to whom they feel is the creditable heir. It wasn't a migration of people seeking to rectify their initial choice. Waves of students didn’t join Daito Ryu. I realize for the Japanese there is more at stake then popularity. It is popularity though that brings students. In coming students bring an organization growth. The bigger the organization the more power it has over its rivals.

Stanley Pranin of Aikido Journal around the 90’s made a focus switch from Aikido only to include Daito Ryu. His premiere advocate of Daito Ryu is K. Kondo, he did focus on Tokimune during his last years in life. He did do articles on various Daito Ryu leading people in his Japanese version of Aikido Journal and his English version. Interviews where done for the English version and the Japanese version. Mr. Pranin’s Aikido Journal has helped tremendously the exposure of Daito Ryu to those outside Japan. I don’t think there is another magazine that has such privilege to Daito Ryu.

Reading the info on webpages by Mr. Williams, Kondo’s site and Aikido Journal it is easy to see what this affair is all about. If you are 16-20 yrs old, or if you are earnestly learning about Daito Ryu for the first time you may not see right away what this is all about. This small ineffective group of people will have reactions based on their interpretation of what they read. They are ineffective because they unable to settle and to put an end to this affair either way. This leads to the core effort of endless bickering and mudslinging that in it’s intensity at this point has once again petered out for now.

If a person who is genuinely concerned about this affair in finding validity and credibility just needs to use common sense, not believe everything that is printed or posted as well as to be critical of that. Then evaluate if it is worth the time and effort in picking a side. If you are interested in learning Daito Ryu it is a personal choice who you pick to train with. There are other highly regarded and recommended Daito Ryu instructors and not so highly regarded Daito Ryu instructors out there that are easily accessible. Some people wish to study with Sensei Y and some with Sensei X that is a personal choice. No public battle with really sway anyone one either way. All it does is re-affirm a choice.

If you do research on Daito Ryu and watch the tapes out there, talk to people who have seen it, or watch a demo you can pretty much tell who you would train with. I don't think public bickering that gives the art nothing other than a black eye is helping Daito Ryu.

I frankly when I read Nathan Scott's posts, post the E-budo thread, I thought what purpose or advantage to Daito Ryu will this bring? I felt the same way after reading the various posts by Mr. Williams and him and his son’s thoughts. I was disappoint to read the bickering between Tokamuni’s students ( Kondo vs. Senior Students) that stale mated; Japanese politics that date back to early Japanese history sadly poorly played out. I was disappointed to have to read any of this. I feel all involved should be ashamed of themselves for contributing to an art that they so call admire and respect.

If Saigo-ha is legit or not, the world will not stop nor will Daito Ryu die. If Kondo is found to be the heir or not Daito Ryu will not end, the world will not stop. If people stop throwing cow patties in the pasture at each other then Daito Ryu might not suffer in the long run. The only real effect this affair has is on the art its self, and a poor effect at that. I wonder if any one has stopped in the mist of their noise for a second and thought of the art instead of themselves.

I am hoping to see an end to this soon. Silence is golden. I am not sure if anyone really cares other then those involved and those who want to be involved.

END QUOTE.

Regards to all ;)

cxt
8th July 2004, 23:48
Cobra

Again, seriously don't mean to hack you off, you seem like a stright forward guy.

So I hope you will take the time to view this from my perspective.

I do not practice Daito Ryu OR Aikido.

So have NO political ax to grind. Or personal involment

(at least not at first)

I first got involved in this particular thread due to some wild claims made about shooting arrows from a 45lbs bow--all the way thu a bear.

As hunter--and one who uses a higher draw weight then 45lbs--I found this to be a rather odd claim.

A-Deer, a less densely muscled animal than a bear, seldom if ever have arrows pass all the way thu them--at least I have never had them do so.
And I have been bow-hunting for about 20 years.

B-Broad Head hunting arrows are specifically designed NOT to pass all the way thu the an animal.

Either way seemed odd--so I questioned it.

The longer it went on the more crazy the responses from Williams.

Never got a stright answer from him about it.

Then more and more what I can only call "weirdness" started to come out.

Enough to pretty much flag his statements as "suspect"--sorry but that is how I see it.

Williams behavior made me move him from the "suspect" to the "wacko" section.

Not what OTHERS have said about him--what HE HIMSELF HAS SAID AND POSTED.

I later find that Willaims and Company posted an article that listed a number of folks BY NAME as being "slimy" and I think "deranged."

Not that I mind the name calling I have been called far worse by folks that actually KNOW me.

What I object to is that Williams--who was and is allowed free access to his "nay-sayers" absolutly refuses to allow ANYONE else to comment on, question, produces counter evidence, etc. concerning his article.

To be honest I see this as craven.

He was and is allowed the chance to defend his claims yet he denies this basic courtsy to others.

Again, this makes him look craven--esp to someone like me, an outsider that could have come down on either side of his claims.

Nathan Scott
9th July 2004, 00:01
Mr. Morrell,

Thanks for posting this response here. I almost closed this thread down because I thought that nothing more of substance would be posted, but I'm glad I didn't now.

I don't know who "shadow warrior" is, but I appreciate his post. Very well thought out, and a big part of me agrees with him. On the other hand, allow me to post my point of view on the subject he spoke of:

Politics are always ugly, and has and will always exist as long as there is more than one person in a room trying to accomplish the same task. That's just the reality of human nature. Most people don't enjoy the political aspect of arts like these, but every generation needs members who are willing to be involved and go out on a limb to some degree. Responsibility for the arts is something that weighs heavier the longer you train in a given art. Political issues is part of the responsibility, though as I say, not everyone will be well suited or tolerant of them. Point being, politics are here to stay, and it is acknowledged that not everyone is going to enjoy, understand, or agree with the reasons for "fighting the good fight". But I wish those without the stomach for politics would not criticize those who are making the effort. I also wish that those sincerely interested in the arts being discussed would conduct themselves as professionally as possible so that we do not look as bad as them.

Politics do hurt the arts involved, but so does fraudulent abuse. Which is worse? As SW says, we are (for the most part) not talking about life and death here, but if you'll allow the analogy - if you are going to a doctor to get medical advice, wouldn't you want to know that the doctor you're going to has been instructed and licensed by a respected authority in the field (ie: qualified)? Fields such as medicine in fact have boards that will pursue fraudulent medical claims, partially to maintain the reputation of the field, and partially for ethical reasons (and yes, probably for financial and/or control reasons as well). Martial arts on the other hand is an un-regulated field. So who do you go to when you have questions about an instructor or art? These days, most go to the internet.

My intent with this forum is to provide a credible information archive that those interested in the art(s) can go to when doing research. Part of that, and unforunately, because of the popularity of the art, an increasingly larger part of it, includes feedback and information about instructors claiming to teach the arts. However, of the 198 threads currently in this forum, only one of them is dedicated to the subject of Mr. Williams, and I intend to keep it that way.

It is not my intention to go on a campaign to discredit others. It is my intention to provide a resource in which comments and opinions, both for AND against, can be posted. If they results end up being negative, shigata ga nai. I've often emailed or called those who are subjects of discussion here directly to advise them of the discussion and to invite them here for their point of view. In the case of the Williams', they decided not to discuss the claims they themselves posted publicly, but rather, decided to post under other names and slander us personally on their own webpage. If they feel they did not get a fair evaluation and/or opportunity to rebut our questions and opinions here, I have now provided them with a mulititude of opportunities for a fair shake elsewhere. Hey, if all the feedback they get on other forums is positive, good for them. Replies based on personal experience are of particular importance, and I hope more of them are posted.

The internet has proven to be an invaluable place to "turn the lights on and see what scampers" in regards to fraudulent claims. The people being discussed here have all published themselves somewhere publicly (usually on the net, but also in books or videos), and, accept money from individuals to teach them. Those that conduct themselves fraudulently or irresponsibly present a liability to those of us who are genuinely trying to preserve and disseminate the arts. They indirectly hurt our reputations, and that reduces interest in the arts and makes it harder for us to teach and train ourselves. Note for example in swordsmanship all the places that will not rent space to sword schools, provide insurance, or in some cases allow possession of live blades because of cases of negligence, poor judgement, and sword violence. Note also the massive and still-lasting ban on "ninja weapons" (many of which are not "ninja weapons") in many states after the crazy ninja boom in the 80's, etc. Some weapons that I train in are illegal to own where I live now. What others do DOES affect the rest of us eventually unless there is an attempt to regulate the field. As I mentioned, since there is no regulating board, that means that feedback from our peers is the only "regulation" currently available.

Anyone interested in training in an art should of course perform adequate research. Some of that should include searching the net for feedback from others with direct experience or qualified opinions. That is what I'm trying to provide an opportunity for here, though I can't speak for everyone involved in such discussions.

Personally, I don't believe anyone expects to have any hard resolutions or solutions to the controversial subjects within AJJ/Daito-ryu. We can, however, document opinions and facts for others to consider and benefit from.

I do sympathize with SW's point of view though.

Regards,

cxt
9th July 2004, 00:13
Sorry folks

Forgot to sign my name to the above.


Chris Thomas

cobra
9th July 2004, 10:04
Hi Chris,

I take your point, no problem.

Hi Nathan,

With due respect i quote your statement:

"It is not my intention to go on a campaign to discredit others."

Yet you choose to post this to other forums?, sorry buddy but you have contradicted your self with that one. I know you say you have done it to give John and Steve the chance to defend themselves else where, but in doing so you have done exactly the opposite of what you state above.

However on a positive note in doing so it also generated SW's post, so may be you have achieved something good for this thread? who knows only the future will show that now.

With regards to the post SW has an excellent point if you read in to it, we all have lives gentlemen. Why are we wasting them sat infront of these screens?. When e-budo went down what did you all do?, did you spend more time with your families and friends, or did you search the net looking for another forum to post on?.

The internet has provided a valuable point for research as you say, but it has also taken us away from that which IS more important, our lives and families.

This thread has stirred up many opinions since it was started, and no doubt it will continue to do so - but as SW states what has it really achieved? John is till teaching, his clubs are still running and no doubt will continue to do so long after he has passed on.

Students will train with who ever they want to, Johns choose to train with him, and probably always will do - they are happy with that.

I did not intend to post on this thread again, as i said earlier. But when i read SW's post it opened my eyes to many things, not just this thread but in general, and i thought it should be added here. Read it a few times and take in it's meaning. Who SW is does not really matter - what he or she has written does.

Think about it, i have in great detail - and as such i will not be posting to this thread again after this one as i think it has run its course - thats my opinion.

You have all also given your opinions and as you say Chris i am a straight forward guy and as such have now given my final one.

See you all in the other threads,

Regards.

Andy ;)

MarkF
9th July 2004, 14:47
The internet has provided a valuable point for research as you say, but it has also taken us away from that which IS more important, our lives and families.



"[Television] has provided a valuable point for research, as you say but [television] has also taken us away from the which IS more important, our lives and families."

Excuse me for using your quote to make a point but it has been said before. And it will be again, by someone sitting in front of a screen -- either one.

It seems that in one modern country they burned books for much the same reason. It didn't help. They had radio.



Mark

John Connolly
9th July 2004, 20:31
Andrew,

You seem to be saying: "Leave these guys alone. Why are you here when you could be training?"

1.These guys are charlatans. They are misrepresenting what they do, along with threatening folks, and making nasty statements about folks (including me) that we aren't allowed to defend against (due to the format of their website). They've taken every opportunity to debate that they've been given and proven to be liars and completely batty.

2.Many of us are here, wasting our valuable work time, rather than our valuable training time.

"Leave these guys alone" just isn't a valid reason to leave these guys alone, given the fakery we've seen from them time and time again.

Nathan Scott
9th July 2004, 20:52
"It is not my intention to go on a campaign to discredit others."

Yet you choose to post this to other forums?, sorry buddy but you have contradicted your self with that one. I know you say you have done it to give John and Steve the chance to defend themselves else where, but in doing so you have done exactly the opposite of what you state above.

It may seem like a fine line to you, but I don't think that I'm contradicting myself, and I did choose those words carefully in order to clarify what is happening here.

Let me point something out again - I did not start this thread. Not because I'd never heard of Williams and his Saigo-ha (he is in fact "infamous"), but because I already had developed an opinion and was not curious about him. If it was my goal to simply be a "do-gooder" or fraud-buster, I'd have searched the internet to find as many examples as I could in order to try to shut them down.

As a member and moderator here, I contribute regularly to threads when I have something to say. Some people seem to value my opinion, while others may not. If someone here who is the subject of discussion ends up appearing as though they are are being discredited or viewed as not "legitimate", it is not because it was conspired that way from the beginning. Like I've said multiple times, EVERYONE being discussed here is welcome to post here, or have a representative post on their behalf.

As far as my postings to the other forums, the wording I used was also carefully chosen. I'd honestly be interested to find out what members of other forums think about them (since the Williams' think that we are simply out to get them), good or bad. If we are all a bunch of vicious, mis-informed a-holes who don't know what we're talking about, then let's see what others make of it. So far the replies to these forums have been "interesting", and if I may say so (for the most part) predicatable. My post to these forums was completely neutral, and I asked those involved in this thread already not to post in these other forums in order to give the Williams' a fair chance at objective opinions. I also didn't offer a link to this thread in those posts, though obviously, people can find this if they choose to look. If the Williams' are great and legitimate people, then my posts to these other forums will generate a great chance for them to get some balanced feedback and prove us all wrong.

I noticed that SW indirectly replied to my last post here. I'd reply to him/her directly, but one; I wouldn't want to be accused of tainting the Williams' chances of objective feedback elsewhere, and two; I don't know the name of who I'm talking to, and I've always found that really annoying to be honest.

In any event, allow me to post a reply to SW's last post, which BTW, I found myself less in agreement about this time.

I do agree that the level of maturity and professionalism of publications was much higher when people were forced to author letters, articles and books, but the internet is what it is, and will continue to gain popularity as an information resourse. Personally, I try to approach the internet a bit more seriously in hopes that it will provide a more useful purpose than simply that of entertainment.

As far as entertainment goes, movies and TV are called entertainment for a reason. It is, and has been for the most part, focused on entertaining. The fact that many people tend to believe everything they see in the entertainment media as "real" is simply an absurd phenomenon that a minority of people seem to eventually grow out of. I, for example, do find movie/TV/fantasy based questions about MA really annoying, but I would never ask anyone producing such media not to do so. It is not their fault that the public can't properly qualify what they are seeing, and it remains entertaining for those that enjoy them. I admit that I'd like to see more historically accurate media, but I guess people like me are in the minority.

As far as threads like this being entertaining, yeah, it did turn out to be extremely entertaining. But that wasn't what started this thread - it was what the Williams' brought to the thread themselves. I don't post threads like this in my forum in order to entertain readers (except for one or two that have thread names that start with "OT" [off-topic], and these are just fun, not malicious).

As far as the purpose of discussing such things on the internet, these are "discussion" forums. They are forums in which budo-ka discuss things related to budo. Not your cup of tea - don't read/participate in them.

I for one don't expect that anyone will be run out of business as a result of the feedback provided here. I do expect that prospective or new students will eventually do an internet search on a given instructor though, and benefit on some level from the feedback of others. If others choose to train with someone who is not widely acknowledged or respected by their peers, that is their choice. More power to them. I am simply against people being BS'd into believing they are learning something they are not. As I said, when you accept students for money, you are providing a service to the public/community, and regardless of how you view the acceptance of payment, the student (by western standards at least) is paying to receive a promised service. They have a right to have the instructor correctly represent themselves, and as SW says, the field is unregulated (unlike the medical industry), so nothing stops them from conducting fraudulent behavior except for the free exchange of information and feedback on places like these.

I do not in fact see myself as "do-gooding". I have posted neutal threads in other forums asking for opinions. The way it is worded, the Williams' have as good a chance at getting good feedback as they do bad feedback. What happens in other forums from now on is out of my hands, as I will not contribute to them or try to influence the outcome.

Public opinion hurts all involved - why add fuel to the fire? Opinions from the general public may be hurtful, but not those knowledgable and experienced in the arts. This is a martial arts forum focused specifically on the art(s) of aikijujutsu (and "aiki"). Even in court cases, those considered to be "experts" in their field are often called in to offer their opinion on an issue. Much of what makes them an "expert" is their years of experience in the field. If you don't know anything about the aiki arts, and you have that chance to ask a number of people who are qualified, experienced and credentialed in the field, is this not information worth taking into consideration?


I don’t see how shining a light with the internet does any good. The light isn’t always the best. Integrity and professionalism is placed in the dark. What the light shines on is the continuance of a circus to be enjoy by the audience.

I'm sorry, but I don't agree with this at all. Again, this is not a budo entertainment forum, and I have clearly discouraged the posting of unsupported and unqualified opinions a number of times (in this forum at least). The fact that some of the subjects of discussion become entertaining is a by-product of the purpose of these threads, not the goal. Those instructing the public should be able to look prospective students in the eye and honestly explain their experience and qualifications to teach them. What they say *should* be the truth, and if they can't bring themselves to live in the real world and conduct themselves ethically, they shouldn't be teaching others.

Frankly, it has been my observation that those strongly against shining lights are typically those who have suffered from being "exposed". ;)

A lot of people do waste valuable time on the internet, including me. But, at least in my case, I *also* manage to train/teach 6 days a week in several budo. I've also learned a lot being on the internet, and have made valuable contacts and friendships. Your mileage may vary, however.

Personally, I look forward to the day when freely accessible information and feeback on the internet makes it virtually impossible for others to make fraudulent claims about these arts. I don't think we should run these subjects into the ground by posting new threads about it every month (like a lot of the Lovret/Sachanaraski wars), But I'd like to see a few resources where those interested can choose - or not choose - to be exposed to the subjects.

While these debates are taxing for everyone involved at that time, it is my belief that arts like Daito-ryu *will* benefit from the results down the road.

Regards,

cxt
9th July 2004, 20:58
John

No disrespect to Cobra meant, but your right.

His line of reasoning "williams still has students and will continue to have students" (MY PARAPHRASE)

Seems to indictate that if you can't totally stop something you should just ignore it.

Can't stop people from committing crimes-lets just ignore it.

Can't stop people from lying--lets just stop calling them on it.

I can't agree with this abrogation of ethics.

What Williams does is WRONG--he is guilty of telling what with the best possible spin are "tall tales" and what any reasonable person would consider to be delibrate, outright, calculating lies.

Thats just plain wrong.

And washing your hands of it by suggesting that people ignore it is just as bad.


Chris Thomas

Nathan Scott
10th July 2004, 00:12
In response to "Shadow Warrior's" last post:

While I've appreciated his/her well considered and intelligent replies on this subject, it sounds as though we are starting to talk in circles. I've re-read my recent posts, and there isn't anything further I can say on the subject without repeating myself. So in that regard, it looks as though we'll have to respectfully agree to disagree.

I would add though that, to my mind, we are not talking about inter-organizational/art politics as much as we are questioning a person/webpage that contains misinformation and unsupported claims. Seems to me this is a bit different. Also, outside of perhaps saving the Daito-ryu name some face eventually, I don't think any of us stand to benefit directly from discrediting anyone. I for one only have 6 students, and I know they don't care about any of this. Even Kondo Sensei does not stand to benefit much from "winning" the succession war. His position is well documented and accepted, and the Daitokan folks run a modest membership half a country away from him. The debate a few years ago began over the former Seishinkai folks trying to use the name Daito-ryu Honbu Dojo on the net, and turned into a succession debate.

Speaking of Kondo Sensei/Shinbukan, I'd let ya'll know that, to my knowledge, there are only 3-4 study group students of his that ever contribute to this forum, and I'm not one of them. I am not a student of Kondo Sensei's, and though I supported and still support his position over the former Seishinkai group, I am not in fact one of his strongest supporters, FWIW.

BTW, I posted the John Williams/Saigo-ha post in the Daito-ryu forum of Samurai Bujutsu thinking that it was an on-topic subject for discussion there. Saigo-ha is claiming to be a branch of Daito-ryu, and their webpage is one of the oldest and largest pages about "Daito-ryu" on the net. As such, many people have been exposed to them. But if ya'll are not interested in the subject or feel it is an inappropriate topic, feel free to let it die or delete it.

No sweat off my back. :)

Regards,

Nathan Scott
6th August 2004, 01:44
Hi all,

I just received a set of three production videos featuring John Williams and his son in the mail. They are about 15 years old, so it is hard to say how long ago they were recorded. However, the art name at that time was "Kindai-ha Shinto-ryu", of which John J. Williams was listed as the 9th dan Shodai-Soke, and his son Steve as a "Sensei". The tapes were produced under the authority of the "Zen Kokusei (sic) BUDO/BUGEI RENGO-KAI (I.M.A.L. Inc.). I reckon "kokusei" is supposed to be "kokusai" (one of many romaji errors), which makes their Zen Kokusai organization "all-international"?

Anyway, one tape was on their karate-do, while the other two were on their jujutsu.

The performance, in all honesty was in fact not laughable, which came as a surprise. Of course there were a few funny little things, like Williams making sound effects when punching and throwing, but overall it really wasn't too bad.

It became clear, to me at least, that Williams' experience is primarily in karate. The jujutsu was mostly pretty standard methods of what I call karate-based jujutsu, which is found in many karate/hybrid-kempo styles (defending against karate-style kicks and punches). The tapes were primarily of his son and other blackbelts demonstrating techniques at (I assume) half speed, and what they were doing looked like pretty standard karate-type methods. John Williams narrates and performs techniques slowly, so it is hard to gauge his ability level from these tapes, but based on various elements of his setups and execution, it seemed to me as though his students were a bit more skilled than he was.

So in closing, my own opinion, based on sitting through these three videos, is that their ability level appears to be somewhat average, which is intended to be kind of a back-handed compliment since, frankly, I anticipated that the tapes would be hysterical. On the other hand, there was not anything that looked remotely like Daito-ryu, aikijujutsu, or aiki by any definition. I'm not sure when Williams became a Daito-ryu grandmaster, but it would seem to have been sometime after these tapes were produced.

Though seeing their arts (or previous arts) does improve my perception of what they are doing somewhat, it does not change the character issues and art/lineage claims that are the subject of this thread. But I thought I would post my observations in the interest of fairness.

For what it's worth,

elder999
9th August 2004, 15:38
The rest of your story is....interesting. I never sent anything other than a check, nor did I ask to join, and in 1989 I hadn't been a shodan in...well, a while. Someone had told me you were some kind o f "old-time strongman,"like one of my teachers. You're not, and that's where my interest lay.

One of my teachers (as Mr. Williams is aware) was Joseph Goldstein; I have a more than passing interest in old time strongmen, and feats of strength like Mr. Williams “ice-breaking,” though his ice breaking didn’t really qualify as such.



As for the hunting, I don't hunt bear because I don't eat bear, and I don't take pictures of dead animals because they're meat.

I wanted to touch on this again, because it does have bearing on Mr. Williams veracity, even more than his strange sense of history or the poor punctuation and spelling coupled with his PhD.

I’ve been hunting since my teens; my father took me hunting with him, and taught me from an early age. When I hunt, I do so with the utmost respect; I actually “ask” the animal I’m killing for its life:”I need your help; I will use your energy in ways that you and Creator will find pleasing.” I was taught that after a kill there is no celebration until the work of dressing the animal is done-that one must be respectful of the life one has taken until it reduced to mere meat. We always used almost all parts of the animal-I still have many, many horn buttons and knife handles for my knife-making hobby, and we never, never took photographs of kills any more than we would take snapshots of shopping carts full of groceries, though I don’t look down upon those who do so; it is just not my way.

My way? I was raised to have respect for what remained of the traditional ways of the Amagansett people, the people of Shinnecock and Montauk, where my forebears came from. My cousins have run the Shinnecock pow-wow-the longest continuous running native gathering of its sort in the U.S.-since its inception. Out here in N.M., I regularly hunt with a Penobscot man I’m privileged to call brother, and back east I called Pequots and Micmacs my friends, brothers and cousins. They all understand the way that I was taught to hunt, and I have to wonder why Mr. Williams speaks of his hunting and native heritage in the same paragraph, but one shows no evidence of the other?

As for the whole “pass-through” and draw-weight thing, pass-throughs do happen with deer. They are not desirable-in fact, I used cedar arrows for years because it was desirable for them to break, causing internal damage and leading to a quick death, with reduced tracking. In New York, where I’ve still done most of my bowhunting, it was desirable to use as high a draw weight as possible to punch through the thick underbrush that one finds in the forest, and out here it is needed for the same reason with deer, and for range with elk. I was always taught that one used the highest draw weight one could with comfort as a matter of course, at any rate, and I am, as I’ve said elsewhere, rather strong. Perhaps Mr. Williams is just too old for a 65# bow. In any event, as a physicist with an interest in ballistics, I found it highly unlikely that a pass through would occur regularly with even a black bear-an animal I’ve only hunted once (which is another interesting story, and a valuable lesson for me)-given the nature of their hide, hair and fat, and the way such things absorb energy, and my suspicions were confirmed, as I said, by Chuck Adams:

http://www.robinsonlabs.com/column-chuck.html

a man who I personally think is crazy, and whom I don’t hold in high regard as a “sportsman,” but whose expertise is beyond reproach. He says that he has never heard of a pass thorugh on a bear of any sort, much less a grizzly, and doubts that it could happen with larger deer such as elk or moose, even at close range.


As I’ve said before, when it comes to martial arts, I am a person of little consequence. When it comes to hunting, and native ways, I am always-as with budo-still learning.

I think that there’s very little to be learned any of those things from Dr. Wiliams, though.

For those of you who have read through this thread (3 years!), I offer this last bit from Dr.. Williams website:


These attacks were vicious and totally unprofessional, then my father's name came up, and they went as far as to post under my his, then under another one using females name, claiming it was I using her as an alias. * trust me, I am too mature to enter into childish debates with morons who hide behind a keyboard, and I would prefer to meet these guys face to face then play these games.






....and maybe we can have this moved to "Bad Budo," Mr. Moderator???

elder999
9th August 2004, 18:25
And what about that fellow H.E. Davey up in Washington(?)? Supposedly he was granted some sort for legitmacy from the Kokusai Budoin in Osaka, and he does claim a lineage from Saigo Shiro.
Anybody?

John Connolly
9th August 2004, 21:07
http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5436&highlight=Davey

elder999
9th August 2004, 21:34
Originally posted by John Connolly
http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5436&highlight=Davey

Doh! Yeah, I searched that right after I posted, instead of the other way around....oops.(Though no one that I recognized as from a legit. daito-ryu offered anything....)

k4013b
11th January 2007, 23:19
Hi. I have absolutely no experience in any form of the aiki arts, so this looked like the place to ask this question; is this information on this page correct? I was spending quite a few minutes reading this guy's material on the webpage and suddenly became interested in this art, but I want to check with you experienced guys/gals if it is legit. Thanks in advanced, here is the site:
http://www.geocities.com/tokyo/4856/techniques.html

elder999
11th January 2007, 23:29
Oh, geez-it's "dripping blood webpage" John Williams!

Look Here, (http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2561&highlight=John+Williams) and learn to use the search function..

Charles_1
29th June 2007, 04:48
I just registered here recently , Between my father and I we have operated dojo's in canada since 1964 .
I have never personally met John J. Williams although I spoke to him on the phone many times 15-17 years ago .

I did however get some students that trained in his dojo back east that trained in my Vancouver dojo they were top notch .

I have never herd 1 negative comment about John williams untill I registered here .

I have witnessed soo many folks being attacked on this site that it makes me hesitant to really contribute here .

Charles Scott Jr

Nathan Scott
30th June 2007, 00:48
I have witnessed soo many folks being attacked on this site that it makes me hesitant to really contribute here .

Thanks for contributing.

Regards,

Charles_1
30th June 2007, 04:04
Its interesting to note: how humble all of you "genuine" Budo people are instead of being settled in your own resolve of knowledge you choose to use it to smear the foundation of everything you are insecure about .


I just dont understand the negitive energy that is put out here .
Its a very nice web site controlled by some very negative folks .

I know how about you just get it out of the way and make a list like Hitler did !

Hey Nathan I bet you have one already .....Mr. Williams .............Bad budo is too nice lets get the genuine Hate list going !

Where is this from do you know these people ? can you actually prove they are liers or are you jealous ?

I am shocked that you all except Hatsumi with his 15th degree black belts !
If you all think the Duncan video is funny have you seen the Vandonk series ?
Lets get it out there now guys the who we hate list >>>

I will start it .

sincerely Charles

Brently Keen
30th June 2007, 08:27
Charles,

E-budo is a source of education and learning as well as entertainment. It's a friendly place where like-minded people with interests in Japanese martial arts and culture can interact, ask questions, share information and discuss things they have in common. If you have similar interests (and I presume you do, why else would you join and bother to post?), then it might be a good idea to consider how you want to be perceived as a newcomer in this community. What sort of impression are you making for yourself? Who are you criticizing and who are you defending?

Most of the people who contribute here are serious practitioners of Japanese martial arts. Because we're serious, we believe these arts are valuable systems of martial knowledge and cultural treasures that are worth practicing, preserving, and developing for future generations. Many of us have invested years of our lives, and sacrificed much to study and learn these traditions. Therefore we not only care about how these arts are represented, we naturally want to guard & protect those treasures and traditions against infringement by fraudulent imitators, and so we don't suffer fools too much, nor do we put up with trolls.

When people like Mr. Williams and others in the bad budo section consistently misrepresent themselves and what they purport to teach, it dishonors the authentic Japanese traditions that the e-budo community loves. And worse than that, their dishonesty provides a gross dis-service to the public who often-times does not know who/what is legitimate and who/what is not.

FWIW, we don't hate these folks, we just ridicule them. And while we're at it we point out their bogus claims, and expose their nutty and sometimes cultic practices. Threads like this one and others in Bad Budo are part public service and part hilarious comic relief. If you don't like the tone of a certain thread or certain posters, then just skip it, go participate in another forum, or better yet just move along, move along, take your list, your bruised self-righteous ego and skeedaddle. For crying out loud, mind your manners, don't go reviving a dead and dormant thread like this one!

Shitsurei shimasu,

Brently Keen

P Goldsbury
30th June 2007, 09:19
Its interesting to note: how humble all of you "genuine" Budo people are instead of being settled in your own resolve of knowledge you choose to use it to smear the foundation of everything you are insecure about .

I just dont understand the negitive energy that is put out here .
Its a very nice web site controlled by some very negative folks .

sincerely Charles

Mr Scott,

Welcome to E-Budo.

Like Mr Nathan Scott, I am one of the moderators of E-Budo and with Colin Hyakutake I moderate the Baffling Budo and Bad Budo forums.

Colin and I are both British (UK) and have been living in Japan for many years. I have been training in martial arts for 40 years and came to live in Japan to study more deeply.

I have no interest in being negative, but I do have an interest in Japanese budo as this is traditionally understood here. Two crucial marks of authenticity, in my opinion, are genuineness in training and also in lineage.

Since participating in Internet discussion forums, I have noticed the vast amount of tendentiousness and sheer falsehood that often passes for genuine knowledge. I mean by falsehood lying about one's training history and credentials (ranks, for example) and by tendentious being economical with the truth (like claiming to be the student or deshi of a certain sensei after participating in just one training seminar).

So, yes, there is a certain amount of negativity here, because people can sometimes be called to account about their claims. Of course, there is a positive aspect to this, also, which I am sure you or any other serious budouka will appreciate.

Best wishes,

George Kohler
30th June 2007, 13:42
It is obvious that Charles did not read our rules. First, I had to add his name to the first post since he forgot to post it and I also added his name to the signature box. Second, he was being disrespectful.

We will let him cool off in E-Budo Hell... Ha, contradicting terms!

elder999
30th June 2007, 17:54
It is obvious that Charles did not read our rules. First, I had to add his name to the first post since he forgot to post it and I also added his name to the signature box. Second, he was being disrespectful.

We will let him cool off in E-Budo Hell... Ha, contradicting terms!


Are we sure he wasn't the Reverend, Doctor, Sachem John Williams, Gunshi?

Er edit:, saw his other posts-I'd guess not, especially given the grammar and spelling...

Nathan Scott
1st July 2007, 17:34
Mr. Scott,

I don't appreciate being lumped together with references to Hitler. I welcome those with opinions that may oppose mine or others that post here, but when it comes to your attitude, you can lock it up (follow the rules) or go elsewhere.

The people who have been discussed here have all been in reponse to a poster finding a webpage or some other self-generated publicity and then asking questions about them. We don't hunt down instructors and knock on their door, we simply ask them publicly about the claims they make publicly to draw in prospective students. Those being discussed are usually directly invited to participate in the discussion here so we may get a balanced point of view. The fact that many here are acting fraudulently, misrepresenting themselves to their students and the public, is not our fault. It is their fault.

We are lucky to have many people here with the experience, knowledge, and training to differentiate the frauds from the legitimate instructors. Why is that a negative?

Regards,

Charles_1
7th July 2007, 07:31
Mr. Scott
Please except my apology for my imature post I have looked into the matter in more depth .
I was seriously injured in my line of work and have been recovering from damage to both my head and body .
The last time I spoke to Mr William he did not claim to be a soke in any reguard.
I understand the concern and reason for this thread my father pointed me in a another direction that gave me clarity last I spoke to Mr. Williams he was unsure of the back ground of his Jujutsu stating his Sensi's name which I now forget he told us his system was simular to the teachings of daito ryu Aikijujutsu .
However he claimed his teacher was japanese canadian and resided in NB Canada.

That being said I jumped on the defencive with little understanding of his claims that were being made simply becouse he was at one time held in high reguard in the canadian Jujutsu federation .

I have read all the facts and found this in support what you were trying to express here on ebudo

"Saigo Ha Daito-Ryu Shintokai

Box 25109 , Moncton , N.B. E1C 9M9- Canada

August 12, 2005

To whom it may concern:

Be it known that I have met with, trained with, and known Grandmaster Robert Law for over 45 years, during which time he has demonstrated a profound love for his art of Ninjutsu.

In our years of friendship, he has never done anything to lessen his devotion to his chosen art, nor has he conducted himself in a non-professional manner, both in or out of the dojo.

Although our arts are vastly different, both are traditional in both scope and purpose, going back to the era when Japan was ruled by Shoguns and their Yokoyori whose sole purpose was to maintain their control over the people in their respective provinces and to prevent other Shoguns from taking over their territory.

Both the Samurai and the Ninja had a role to play in this process, both were vital to the success of the Shogun, and both were lead by clan leaders who trained their followers in the art of war.

The ninja were specialists in various acts required to maintain power, the Samurai were professional soldiers, both were complimentary to each other, for the Ninja and the Samurai often both severed the same Shogun, thus, they were like the Ying and Yang, both were enemies of the ninja and Samurai of the other Shoguns.

For this reason, there was no conflict between some of the Samurai toward some of the Ninja, rather, they often co-existed as brothers of the arts. This is the relationship between Saigo Ha Daito-Ryu and Geijin Ryu, not as enemies, but as respected allies.

As the 34 th generation Gunshi of Saigo Ha Daito-Ryu, I fully support and endorse Soke Robert Law and his art of Geijin Ryu Ninjutsu, and wish him and his students only success and happiness for the future.

Gunshi Dr. John J. Williams, D.D., CCht, DCHt, TAT, H.E.A.L., EFT

34 th Generation Iemoto

Saigo Ha Daito-Ryu Aiki Bujutsu

Canadian Hombu

This answers all my questions I am sorry for the drama etc I may have caused as this letter is in support of the worst fraud I have ever met .

Again thanks for having me back and please beaware of the Great Soke Robert Law and his "samurai brother JoHn J . williams .

Sincerely Charles D. Scott

Here is a link http://www.ninja-training.com/new.html

Nathan Scott
9th July 2007, 01:02
Mr. Scott,

Thanks for the more even tempered response, and also for posting the interesting letter (!).

You wrote:


...last I spoke to Mr. Williams he was unsure of the back ground of his Jujutsu stating his Sensi's name which I now forget he told us his system was simular to the teachings of daito ryu Aikijujutsu .
However he claimed his teacher was japanese canadian and resided in NB Canada.

Interesting statement. According to a brief scanning of Mr. Williams' history page:

http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/4856/history.html

Mr. Williams "trained under Sigung Shen while living in the USA, but, his training was all private lessons and included all facets of the the Takeda-Ryu art except samurai weapons." New Brunswick (NB) Canada is not considered part of the "USA", so I'm not sure who he is referring to in NB.

William's claimed lineage for his "Saigo-ha" goes a little something like this:

- Saigo Tanomo (1829-1905)
- Shiro Saigo (1863-1922)
- Yamashita Hoei (1889-1972)
- Sigung Lin Po (1902-1951)
- Sigung Pok Shen (1921-1983)
- John Williams

According to his webpage, Kung Fu Master Sigung Lin Po supposedly taught his own teacher Yamashita Hoei Chinese Kempo & pressure point atemi waza. In 1948 "Master Po" (chuckle) then founded "Po Mu Gow", a Chinese version of Saigo-ha, in which he incorporated Northern Shaolin Kung Fu techniques into the Takeda-ryu / Daito-ryu syllabus. "Master Po" also traveled throughout China as a military instructor under Mao Tse Tung before the war, and is rumored to have possibly been a spy for Japan. ;)

Chinese born Sigung Pok Shen was a first-cousin and student of Master Po, and also founded his own version of Takeda-ryu / Daito-ryu called "Shen Mu Gow", based on Northern Shaolin Kung Fu and Saigo-ha Aikijujutsu.

The pictures of Po and Shen are strange, in that they are both B&W "generic" looking headshots with the backgrounds painted out for some reason.

In any event, according to the information on Williams' webpage, his teacher was supposedly Chinese born, and living in the US.

It is also worth noting that there are numerous changes to Williams' webpages now. In some cases he is using the term "aikibudo" much more, or, "Saigo-ha Takeda-ryu". More importantly, he is clearly trying to create links to legitimate DR instructors/branches, such as the Daitokan, Kodokai and Takumakai (see the above linked web page). Much of what has been changed happens to coincide with what was discussed on this thread, and in this forum (I regret mentioning the comment about Lin Po and Northern Shaolin Kung Fu now). Luckily, there are still a vast amount of mistakes and misinformation, but it is worth noting that he is clearly attempting to correct holes in his DR related history.

Students of the Daitokai and Kondo Sensei will find this claimed endorsement interesting:


Soke Sogawa Kazuoichi, is the current head of the Saigo-Ha Shukikan and main student and successor of the of Yamashita Hoori system . His system was accepted as a branch of Daito-Ryu by the late Soke Tokimuni Takeda in 1984 after many years of dis-association and friction between the two camps over the actions of Shiro Saigo.

Furthermore, the recently de-bunked "Kaze Arashi-ryu" system is endorsed on his page for some reason as well:


Soke Shiro Nashiyama, 1846 - 1932 (student of Tanamo Saigo,) founded the Kaze Arashi Ryu system.which is sometimes considered a branch or version of Daito-Ryu or AIKI .Nishiyama was first trained by the priests of the Shugendo Shinto sect at Dewa Shrine located at Mt. Haguro before he trained under Tanamo Saigo at the Nikko Toshugo Shrine. ( Although not pure DAITO - RYU, Kaze Arashi was influenced greatly by the techniques taught by Tanomo Saigo, which is why we list it here ! )

* We realize that KAZA ARASHI is not DAITO-RYU or even true AIKI, but, it has techniques in it that are identitical to those of Daito-Ryu Aiki Jujutsu which is why we consider it related to Daito - Ryu.( although it has great Chinese influence)

See this thread for disposition of the KSR scam (page 6):

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9264

Regards,

Charles_1
21st July 2007, 05:06
Mr. Scott
I felt really silly after seeing him endorse the (lol) 124 th soke of hehhe geijin Ryu ninjutsu .
This guy claims he he that his Ryu (hehe) came via eskimo's way back when the barring strait still joined north america and asia , in a secret escimo village
the secrets of pre japanese ninjutsu is still taught today now thats a story for bad budo seriously this guy is whacky you should have seen when this story was translated to hatsumi Sensi and Tanamura sensi while Grandmaster law looked on with a strait face I was ashamed to be canadian (lol) .

And Now to see John williams call that fraud his brother its funny as hell sorry again !

Charles Scott