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Andrej Mantei
6th April 2004, 00:21
Gassho ...

I found this one in
E-Budo.com > Gendai Budo > Gendai Budo > Hip Vibration

here's the link:
http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24645

it's pretty interesting and I wonder if someone has heard of or even applies this :


Originally posted by Neuro
I read that Hiroo Mochizuki, present head of Yoseikan Budo, went thorugh some tests in the University of Paris, demonstrating an increase of 50-75% in power when using HIP VIBRATION.

He mentions that this is different from HIP ROTATION [...], Hiroo Sensei, being himself a doctor, demonstrated and explained what many chinese martial arts have always advocated but were not able to explain.
[...]

Originally posted by Phil Farmer
I am a student of Master Hiroo Mochizuki and am familiar with this concept. He did indeed do some tests in France and it was found that he could generate much more power using this principle. It has been called a hip vibration, wave and undulation.

It is a wave in the same way sound travels in a wave. My favorite way to describe what is happening is to ask people if they were ever popped with a wet towel in the dressing room. If you do not pull back slightly at the end of the movement, no pop not pain. If, however, you pull back slightly just at the end, lots of pop and lots of pain. This is done, with a punch, by pulling back slightly with the hip while the fist is still traveling forward. It serves to accelerate and focus the energy.

I have been hit by Master Hiroo and his son, Mitchi Mochizuki, from only a few inches away while I was holding two judo gi folded together and used as a pad. It was like being hit with the end of an iron pipe and it left a mark, through the two gi. I have learned this movement and my punches are much faster and more powerful with less effort.

This wave movement is not limited to punches, but also goes with kicks, sword cuts, and even various throws. Try this principle if you ever do a shoulder throw (seoi nage) and you will find the throw is very easy.

[...]


Kesshu ...

satsukikorin
6th April 2004, 06:32
Interesting indeed. I'd be interested to learn more about how it's done. I've always felt that my experience as a (longtime amateur) drummer has helped me snap a fast punch, but I can't say I've paid much attention to developing it, and I have no idea whether I get more power that way than the average kenshi. I guess I should go experiment.

I wonder whether Mochizuki's technique applies differently as a jun, gyaku or furiko zuki.

David Dunn
6th April 2004, 11:03
Sounds very familiar. Mizuno Sensei sometimes explains about generation of power through a small motion and transmission of a wave through the body. These days he argues to focus on seika tanden, but the idea is the same because the hip turns first, before the shoulder.

johan_frendin
7th April 2004, 09:55
Gassho!

There are a number of ways to increase your punching and kicking power. But, the most important way to start with is to cultivate good form.
First look at great instructors that have power and not only talking about it like Mizuno sensei or Aosaka sensei and study their form and mecanics. For example study how they get power from proper weight shifting that transfers weight down at the feet and legs, which in turn sends the hip, which in turn sends the shoulder. Study how they do not “lock out” their punches and kicks. Study how they relax and snap the punch or the kick to generate power.

Second use “modern” equipment like mitts and the heavy bag. If you regularily use the heavy bag you realize key things in your form that must be corrected.

One example of this is that power is lost in the joints because it function as a transmitter of force. If you look at this person http://wsko.econ-net.or.jp/b-report/67.html at the picture you see a misaligned bent left wrist. This person can only hit properly in the air and certainly not with power on a heavy bag. But if he corrects this bent wrist he can increase the power in his punch by at least 30 %.

Power is manufactured from hard practice but some people never give up the search for the “cure” that is passed over from the great master.

Johan Frendin

tony leith
7th April 2004, 11:03
I would agree with Johan (I agree with Johan, it's a first!:D ) that in learning how to hit things there is ultimately no substitute for hitting things. When I was a kyu kenshi I had the good fortune to have access to a lot of equipment - do, impact pads etc etc - and therefore had the opportunity to do a lot of this.

If you train always to control punches and kicks before their point of maximum efficacy (which is what you have to do on unprotected partners, or else you run out partners pretty quickly), it is not going to be possible to compensate for that when you actually have to strike with full force. In Shorinji Kempo terms this does not necessarily mean as hard as you possibly can, but it does mean striking with enough impetus to have the desired effect on whichever weak point you're aiming for (and let's be honest, for practical purposes that may be as hard as you possibly can).

Bag work is certainly useful training for all sorts of reasons, but I think there are better drills that can be used to emphasise striking in a Shorinji Kempo like manner. Not every club can get access to heavy punch bags, but do, focus mitts and impact bags should be obtainable wherever you happen to be. I think ideally impact work in Shorinji Kempo should be combined with mobility work, preferably in a manner which encourages precision targetting. It is possible to develop drills which do this quite well.

One simple example is practising uchi uke zuki wearing do, with the attacking partner also wearing a focus mitt. The attacker delivers gyaku zuki as normal, receives the counter punch to their protected stomach, and then presents the mitt to simulate their head as the defender finishes off the sequence with kagi zuki to chodan. Both partners have to be alert and focussed during drills like this - the attacker is NOT just passively waiting to be hit, but trying to present the defender with a realistic simulation of delivering both the initial counter punch and the finishing kagi zuki to target. This requires that the attacker have a keen awareness eg of where the focus mitt has to be to simulate the head coming forward after receiving a punch to the stomach.

As I say, in the end I don't see an alternative to impact work in terms of learning to hit things 1) safely and 2) effectively. Fortunately I don't see that this is at all incompatible with the practice of Shorinji Kempo.

Tony leith

Pippo_Jedi
7th April 2004, 12:42
Gassho

Hip vibration?
Isn't that another name for the movement we do?
Our punches aren't always performed like they're a wip? My sensei mentioned several times the towel idea to explain various type of zuki and geri....

kesshu

Tripitaka of AA
7th April 2004, 13:17
Language note:

"Zuki and Geri" should be written "tsuki and keri". They "harden" when preceded by other words, hence jun-zuki, gyaku-geri, jodan-zuki, chudan-geri, etc.

The dangerous one is keri. "geri" means diarrhoea in Japanese.

Geri with a whip action is NOT something you want to talk about :(.

MikeCarew
7th April 2004, 15:23
Geri with a whip action is NOT something you want to talk about

I don't know. When capitalised Geri can be a name. What do you think of Miss Halliwell's whip action? And can she generate much power?

Mike Carew

David Dunn
7th April 2004, 15:28
Originally posted by MikeCarew
I don't know. When capitalised Geri can be a name. What do you think of Miss Halliwell's whip action? And can she generate much power?

She can generate a lot of hot air, for sure.

MikeCarew
7th April 2004, 16:34
She can generate a lot of hot air, for sure

Now thats for sure. But then again that is a bit of kettle and pot with respect to myself and many others I suspect.

The use of bag work I find does highlight to myself where I am weak. For instance my left and right imbalance is pointed out when I train on a bag. There is a clear power difference between my favoured side and I suspect that even though bag work will improve the weak side it will never be as powerful as my strong side.

This is different to my Juho, which can often be in better balance and practice can bring a weak side closer to the strong side.

Know thyself

Mike Carew

johan_frendin
10th April 2004, 09:37
Gassho!

I am happy you liked post Tony.

The heavy bag is something I find very useful and I have regularly used this equipment for the last 4-5 years now. I will know reveal a small part of my basic secret :D training schedule that I use ones a week in my garage.

When you use a heavy bag your top priority has to be safety!
First you must have some kind of understanding of proper technique and appropriate body mechanics. If not you might hurt yourself.

Second you need to get some kind of bag gloves to protect your hands. If you have weak wrist you maybe have to wrap you hands but usually experienced Shorinjikempo kenshi have strong wrist through years of hitting DO and juho wasa so it might not be necessary.

When you start you need to be patient with yourself and start up slowly. The biggest mistake you can do in the beginning is to try to “kill” the bag with very, very hard tsuki and keri wasa. I can guarantee that the bag will always win anyway. :D
You need to concentrate on skill and proper mechanics. Power comes from speed and speed comes from smooth seamless technique. So, work on your form and build up your intensity gradually.

To get the most out of your heavy bag workout, you need a plan. For example, you may want to start out with one or two minute work intervals, with 30 to 60 second recovery periods. If you train for about one hour you get a nice body workout.

Exercise 1 - Jun choku zuki: The closest distance to two points is a straight line. Make sure your hand travels directly to the target, and that it does not retract before coming forward. Practice various parry after the jun zuki like gyaku shita uke, gyaku uchi uke. Do not forget to perform this exercise from both migi and hidari game.

Exercise 2 – Jo-chu zuki: Strike this two-punch combination with a one-two beat. After gyaku zuki is finished pivot your back leg in a han tenshin movement and away from the bag (jun shita uke can be used). Beware not to exaggerate the han tenshin movement so you get your back towards the bag. Circling the bag in one direction and throw jo chu zuki over and over again for 2-3 minutes in from both migi and hidari game.

Exercise 3 – Tenchiken 1 (offensive part): This is similar to exercises 2 but a soto uke kagi zuki follows the gyaku zuki. Practice this exercise by pivoting with han tenshin in the direction of the kagi zuki hand. Beware not to exaggerate the han tenshin movement so you get your back towards the bag. Circling the bag in one direction and throw jo chu soto uke kagi zuki over and over again for 2-3 minutes from both migi and hidari game. When throwing kagi zuki do not forget to bent you knees do avoid get your face vulnerable to tsuki wasa counters.

Exercise 4 - Jo-chu zuki and a defensive counter: Strike this two-punch combination with a one-two beat. Let the heavy bag swing away and when it returns do ryusui uke geri, uwa uke geri, uchi uke geri, soto uke geri to stop the bag. Avoid push the keri but kick it with a snap. Repeat over and over again for 2-3 minutes in from both migi and hidari game.

Exercise 5 - If you are a more experienced kenshi you can use the go – ruku – shichi, hachi – ku count in tenchiken 6 in the same way as exercise 4. Strike jo chu zuki combination with a one-two beat. Let the heavy bag swing away and when it returns do modori zuki and keri age (or kinteki geri to the bottom of the bag).

Exercise 6 - Speed – Finally you throw any tsuki or keri wasa as fast as possible. A minimum of 4 tsuki/keri per combination. Do this for the last 5 or 10 minutes of your workout and you will develop speed and endurance.

Remember that the heavy bag work stresses your joints, bones and muscles. So, avoid over-training. Allow plenty of time for recovery between bag sessions.

After a couple of months you will love this workout and hopefully understand by yourself what is wrong in your form and body alignment. When you start you have no power at all in your tsuki/keri wasa but after a couple of months you will hear the change of your tsuki/keri wasa hit the bag. Then you will fall in love with the “correct” sound of your “tools” and you will get a true feeling of that Shorinjikempo form and techniques really is true and fantastic.

Johan Frendin

Tripitaka of AA
10th April 2004, 12:23
Wow Johan, what a brilliant post. the detailed exercises will be studied by everyone, your enthusiasm for bag training is well conveyed. It feels contagious :). Now if I could only find a space in my tiny house to put a heavy bag.

A couple of questions;

Is your heavy bag the dimenshions of those big leather bags at Hombu? Or can we use something a little smaller? What do you fill it with?

Do you think that regular training with a bag (as beneficial and useful as it undoubtedly is), makes you more likely to make hard contact in Randori? Does the increasing awareness of maai actually make it easier to exercise good "control" and avoid thumping your partner too hard? or do you end up sending people into orbit with an "oops, sorry about that!"

Andrej Mantei
10th April 2004, 17:11
Gassho ...

Johan ... do you practise aiming & hitting to the point at the heavy bag? The difficult thing is not only hitting hard but also hitting what you've aimed at (when trying to hit hard).



Tripitaka of AA
Does the increasing awareness of maai actually make it easier to exercise good "control" and avoid thumping your partner too hard?

Unfortunately we don't have access to heavy bags. But I would greatly appreciate if we had. You never get a feeling for kicking/punching if you can't practise with power. Dos aren't sufficient for several reasons.

- 1st: you can't really punch and (particularly) kick with full power since even with a do this in most cases would send your partner to the ground

- 2nd: you need to practise hitting precisely when punching/kicking with full power which means in many cases your partner will get hit at points you haven't aimed at - really dangerous, ain't it ? To anyone who advocates slow kicking/punching in order to train that: there's a quite big difference concerning the dynamics in slow air hitting and hard/powerfully hitting a target.

- 3rd: This comes directly to the point you were wondering about David. It's really hard to develop a feeling for the strength and power of your kicks/punches if you can't practise them full power on a hard target since this gives you - by the mere feeling of it - more of an idea about how hard etc. your punches are than any air punching would. Of course there's also the "danger" of getting so used to hitting hard that just the reverse happens, you forget about the power of your punches/kicks because your heavy bag doesn't complain. To avoid that or at least make this less probable to happen I think there are several possible means, i.e.:
- This one may sound strange but always is kind of enlightening :D. Use your palm to hit yourself (not hard of course) against your own temple. You will be surprised with what little power this leaves you dizzy, even after a single hit. Remember that feeling when practising with others.
- Or, get a do and let someone with similar strength and level in technique (forget about grades) practise kicks/punches at you. If you're the hard guy leave the do and use one or two folded dogis as protection before your stomach instead.
- And - this one is a rather general point, though - when practising techniques and even more important when doing Goho Randori always stress that feeling comfortable with a technique and being relaxed when doing it is much more important than exercising it with speed and power. Speed and thus power will add automatically (and sometimes without people even noticing first place) when people start to be relaxed and feel comfortable with the technique. Stress that being relaxed and practising slowly does not only apply to the attacker but even more has to be observed by the defender. From my experiences I can tell that - provided both "listen" to the physics of their partner - the defender sets the speed of randori over the course of several attacks. If the defender is relaxed and "cool" this will also cool down the attacker. Thus both can pay more attention to correctly applying techniques in contrast to trying to "get" the other. You might even start randori at an ALMOST :) ridiculously slow speed.


Kesshu ...

Andrej Mantei
10th April 2004, 18:04
Gassho ...

Concerning the original topic. I applied some thinking to this and have come up with some ideas about it ;D.


Originally posted by David Dunn
Sounds very familiar. Mizuno Sensei sometimes explains about generation of power through a small motion and transmission of a wave through the body. These days he argues to focus on seika tanden, but the idea is the same because the hip turns first, before the shoulder.

I think what is explained by Hiroo Mochizuki goes beyond that. The idea about punches as I've learned is what you explained David. Turn your hip, the shoulder will follow and this way thrust forward your arm and fist. That's the wave like movement you were talking about I think. Hiroo Mochizuki adds a trifle but important movement to that sequence. He says, after turning/rotating your hip and thus thrusting forward your arm but before you hit the target pull back the hip a little thus you will gain extra power in your punches. If you consider the towel analogy the whip like movement is not achieved by only thrusting the towel forwards but by thrusting it forwards and pulling it back in the same sequence of movements. The only technique I know so far that uses (although not explicitly taught that way) such whip like movement is mae uchi (or mei uchi ? ... dunno how it's spelled). Just watch yourself when doing it. Merely pushing forward your arm doesn't make your fingers snap very fast. But if you push it forward and pull it back instantly (even just a little bit) that makes your fingers much faster. Probably, like me, you've already done this without thinking about it. For such an whip like movement you need at least one "hinge". Moreover the hinge must not be straight (angle must be other than 180°). In the case of the towel the whole towel consists of small "hinges", concerning your fingers the important hinge is where the fingers are connected to the palm (knuckles).
This means to achieve a whip like movement in a punch you need a hinge (wrist and/or ellbow) and your fist/arm must not be aimed directly to your target but have (at least) a slight angle. Provided this and using the extra hip movement (pulling back) in the right moment you will probably get a whip like punch which - at least in (my physical) theory - would be faster than an ordinary punch. If someone wants to know what physics I believe are behind that I'll try to explain my way of thoughts.

Can anyone approve or disprove this or has any ideas/experiences about/with that?

happy easter evry1 ...

Kesshu

Ade
10th April 2004, 21:59
Dear All

Gassho

If you watch Mohammed Ali's old videos (during the time of his Olympic medal win) you will see that he's, what's referred to in boxing terms, as a solid both feet placed puncher.

Later in life he floats, hardly touching the ground, with his body weight following through his punch.

Later still his hands become so quick, returning in to his body, that he doesn't appear to fully extend.

One of his sparring partners, and trainers, throughout his life once famously said:

"I'd rather be hit by the young Ali than the old, it used to be like getting hit by a freight train, now it hurts as bad but it stings your face like a bitch, and crying don't look good!"

The snap back is a method of imparting a whip action, stinging the opponent.

But for solid damage, there will never be a substitute for the; feet placed, legs deeply bent-extending upwards, back uncurling, explosion out of the armpit, uppercut into your opponents unguarded chin.

Ask this man:

http://www.posternow.com/a/a2825.jpg

Or ask anyone that ever got knocked out by George Foreman.

johan_frendin
10th April 2004, 22:17
Gassho!


Is your heavy bag the dimensions of those big leather bags at Hombu? Or can we use something a little smaller? What do you fill it with?
My bag is not a leather bag but a canvas model 160 cm filled with small pieces of fabric. To give the bag a solid core (so it does not fold itself while kicking) I have used a plastic pipe of about 4 inches width in the middle of the bag. This 160 cm bag allows me to both do tsuki or keri wasa to the “entire body” and even kinteki geri to the bottom of the bag. Smaller bags limit this wide range of targets and thus I prefer the bigger ones.


Do you think that regular training with a bag makes you more likely to make hard contact in Randori? Does the increasing awareness of maai actually make it easier to exercise good "control" and avoid thumping your partner too hard? or do you end up sending people into orbit with an "oops, sorry about that!"
To be able to hit hard you need several attributes like good form, understanding of distance, perfect timing, speed etc. If you understand these attributes you can hit both dead hard and light and smooth and everything in between. Those people who say they have practiced full contact and can only hit hard only tell you right away that they have misunderstood several key attributes of hitting ad kicking properly. If I went to Great Britain tomorrow to workout with former heavy weight champ Lennox Lewis he could do randori with me in any way I want. If I say very light he will never hurt me at all, and if I say full-contact he would sent me to a hospital in 10 seconds. :D


Johan ... do you practice aiming & hitting to the point at the heavy bag? The difficult thing is not only hitting hard but also hitting what you've aimed at (when trying to hit hard).
The heavy bag is first and foremost a help to hit and kick with power and gives you a hard workout that condition your body and mind. The focus is on power and speed but of course you need to hit at the approximately right spot you intent to hit. But if you want to focus on proper places to hit there are other methods of training.

To learn Shorinjikempo a dedicated training partner is invaluable and a heavy bag can never substitute your training partner. The heavy bag work is in my opinion an equipment to use outside of regular training when you have no training partner.

Johan Frendin

Andrej Mantei
10th April 2004, 23:41
Originally posted by Ade
The snap back is a method of imparting a whip action, stinging the opponent.

But for solid damage, there will never be a substitute for the; feet placed, legs deeply bent-extending upwards, back uncurling, explosion out of the armpit, uppercut into your opponents unguarded chin.

Gassho ...

Breaking someone in two is not purpose of Shorinji Kempo unless I haven't got it right (which might as well be since I'm very junior to Shorinji Kempo :). Btw., stinging should be what you want bearing in mind, that you are hitting nerve points.
Shorinji way of acupuncture :D.

However, I think this technique is most effective against hard or firm targets like head, rips etc. Whereas very soft targets i.e. when punching someone who wears a thick leather jacket etc. needs a lot more thrusting/pushing since thick soft material would absorb most of the "whip" energy because it is created only in the very last moment before contact - due to the wrist being the main hinge -, hence is effective only in a rather short range of distances. This means either you manage to create "whip" energy but due to it's short distance effect it would only hit the jacket or if you thrust further and try to create the whip movement later/deeper in the target it will be hindered by the target itself because you can't accelerate the fist by the whip movement anymore. Therefore to effectively hit a soft target either you use the classical punch or you use the whip technique but rather in an Uraken-Uchi way than a Zuki thus shifting the main hinge from the wrist to the ellbow.

Kesshu ...

Phil Farmer
12th April 2004, 17:41
Greetings to all. I wanted to jump in here because I was quoted (accurately) at the beginning. Andrej did an excellent job of explaining Hiroo Mochzuki's movement and theory behind it. In the late 60's or early 70's there was a study done in France between the power of Mochizuki's punch and that of other karateka. Master Hiroo was able to generate much more power in punches and kicks using his method. I would post the actual study but it is all in French.

Adrian talked about having both feet planted and using the legs to punch and generate great power. In Yoseikan, we practice using this method while both feet are off of the ground and while lying flat on our back on the mat. In both cases, using what is usually described as an undulation or wave motion, great power can be generated. It is the speed that is generated that causes the power.

As to the comment about what material might be between the fist and the target, I have held two judo gi folded together to make a makiwara and let both Master Hiroo and his son, Mitchi Mochizuki Sensei hit those gi. From just a few inches away, the blow felt like someone had taken the end of a steel pipe and hit me. The power becomes extremely focused and I will assure you, the material did a poor job of absorbing the wave of energy. The next day, I had muscle stiffness in my back. I know what you are thinking, making up tales for the Master but I am always a skeptic and a trainied researcher, so I had a hard time believing it myself.

Dr. Phil Farmer

R_Garrelts
12th April 2004, 19:00
Dr. Farmer,

If it is not too much trouble, would you mind posting the study (or emailing it to me) anyway? My background is in physics and I would very much like to see it (as would others, I am sure).

Regards,

Richard

Andrej Mantei
12th April 2004, 19:03
Hi Phil, thanks for joining in. Please would you post a link to the study (though my french is rather rough I got some french friends who owe me a favour :).

Concerning the soft material and your two dogis. First I've to say everything I've written here has been deduced from your description and using my experiences in martial arts, therefore I don't claim to possess the ultimate truth :D.
When writing about soft targets I also considered your experience with the two dogis but wondered how firmly they were folded. If rather firmly and directly held to your body they might have been a rather firm target too. A soft target I consider i.e. a thick/soft jacket where there is air and other clothes between jacket and body. Do you think in such a case hib vibration would be inferior to classical hip rotation?
Another question: Am I right in claiming that you need to have a certain angle concerning your fist/lower arm in order to have a whip movement compared to directly aiming at the target? Did you change the position of fist etc. when acquiring this technique?

Thanks ... Andrej :)

PS: As I see now posted this almost in the same second as Richard :rolleyes:

David Dunn
13th April 2004, 14:30
Andrej, it still sounds very familiar. The point of making the 'wave' is that you allow your initial small movement to propagate through your body, and because it is a wave it retracts by itself. The idea is to make power through speed and 'snap', but the pull back is not using muscle, simply the consquence of sort of relaxing after the moment of tension at the impact.

Heavy bag work is useful. Unfortunately I don't have a garage or anywhere to hang one up. There used to be one at UCL but they kept getting broken. I think it was a bit light, and probably cheap. It would swing away even with a less powerful tsuki, so to do any sustained training with it needed someone to hold it.

Andrej Mantei
13th April 2004, 15:00
Originally posted by David Dunn
but the pull back is not using muscle, simply the consquence of sort of relaxing after the moment of tension at the impact.


Gassho ..

Dear David, sorry that I have to contradict you but turning back the hip has to occur before you hit the target thus you get the whip movement. I'm quite aware of the wave you mentioned. This wave is prominent in both the classical punch and the whip like one.

Kesshu ..

Pippo_Jedi
13th April 2004, 16:00
Gassho

English is not my native language but I do have some experience with it, nonetheless I don't understand what this 'hip vibration' is about.

To my, limitated, knowledge we perform a zuki in this way from chudan gamae.
the weight goes forward- yaya mae
the hip rotates
to arms leaves the position of gamae
strikes its target going exatly along a line, or vector,
then, upon hitting, the arm returns back with the body.
the impact time has to be smaller as possible.
the hip rotation has to be faster as possible to give maxim angular momentum to the arm.
the arm doesn't have to swing but it has to travel straight so the vector of the hit is in only one direction maximizing the kinetic energy transferred (if during the impact you're moving the fist along the impact's surface you're using energy to generate heat, to move the target's cloths etc..).

is Hip 'vibration' a term to emphatize the fact that the hip rotates fast foward and back while punching or it's another thing?

by the way, I'm a physic student, so basic mechanics is no news to me.

kesshu

Pippo_Jedi
13th April 2004, 16:54
Originally posted by Andrej Mantei
Gassho ...
If someone wants to know what physics I believe are behind that I'll try to explain my way of thoughts.

Can anyone approve or disprove this or has any ideas/experiences about/with that?

happy easter evry1 ...

Kesshu

Gassho

Sorry for the double topic but I didn't read Mantei's post.

Let me state that I have not studied this problem in depth so I may be wrong, but it sound reasonable...

starting with the obvious...
I have to start noting that when speaking of punches and the like is always difficult to find a good reasoning because one is easily led astray. We have to remember that the human body is a soft thing, not a wood table.
if a wooden table is thrown at you, let's suppose it has wheels so we're not talking about attacking Hulk, and you try to stop it you do not hit it with a fast zuki or Geri, you try to pull all your wheight on it to stop it.

That's a way to strike: with your full weight you transfer the maximum kitetik energy possible to your target, hopefully, stopping it.

speaking of hitting people you have to know what end result you want to achieve.
If you want to stop an incoming man/woman that is running toward you you have to do a 'solid' punch or, better, geri like the table example above.
if you're trying to hurt you can do it in another way.
the towel example is good: it hurts a lot, it has a small mass, it is fast, but at the same time it wouldn't hurt so much if it doesn't 'snap', right?

Think to the fist as a ball thrown to a bag. the momentum of the ball is mV with m mass and V velocity.
now the variation of momentum, diveded by t the impact duration, is equal to the average force used to change it. (mV-mVo)/t=F (Vo it's the velocity at the end)
When hit the bag opposes the ball with a force that is greater as the impact time becomes smaller.
The force is 'felt' by the ball, but from the bag too.
even if is possible that in that way there is less kitetic energy transferred to the target overall the difference is that the force felt by the body may be much greater than usual.
Our body does not react well to great forces applied in small areas (that is: a grat pressure). a person charging you and moving you around gives to you more kitetic energy but isn't effective.
The tissues struck in this way do hurt a lot and are very likely to suffer great damage in a small area. strike Kyusho and be happy.
My Sensei used to do the following exercise to uderstand the difference in these two type of strikes: a partener wearing DO walks rapidly towards you.
one time you try to stop him/her. it's difficult because you have to stand well and strike ad the right time to impart maximum kinetic energy.
one time you strike very rapidly and then you move away so you are not trampled. if you do this good the partner will feel unhindered at first but then, if the atemi was correct, will crumble to the floor as he/she feels the torso hurting.
My sensei showed to us the difference making US wearing the Do and feeling the difference, I remember the second one hurt a lot!

well my opinions, what do you think?

Robert Cheshire
13th April 2004, 17:50
Here is some of the information Phil was talking about. It's in French, so, either read it or translate it if you wish. Let us know if you have more questions. Master Hiroo's son Mitchi Mochizuki speaks good english and we can always contact him to try to get more information and/or the location of information.

Le mouvement ondulatoire
Par Maitre Hiroo MOCHIZUKI


« Un artiste s’entraînait avec un fouet de 8 mètres de long au bout duquel était attaché un couteau. Il essayait de planter ce dernier dans un arbre qui lui faisait face. L’arbre était épais et solide, et si quelqu’un avait essayé d’y planter un couteau à la main, il n'aurait pénétré l’écorce que de quelques millimètres. Mais à ma grande surprise l’artiste, lui, planta son couteau sur plusieurs centimètres. A tel point qu’il lui fut difficile de le retirer.

A la suite de cette troublante expérience, j’ai essayé d’imiter le mouvement de vague produit par le corps de l’artiste pour lancer son fouet. Puis, je me mis à appliquer ce mouvement ondulatoire sur un coup de poing. Ayant obtenu des résultats intéressants, je décidai de réitérer l’expérience à l’aide d’instruments de mesures à l’INSEP (Institut National du Sport et de l’Education Physique de Paris).

Les ceintures noires de Karaté présent ont obtenu, dans le meilleur des cas :
300 Kg de pression à l’aide d’un coup de poing « classique »,
600 Kg de pression à l’aide d’un coup de pied « classique ».
Alors qu’avec l’utilisation du mouvement ondulatoire que je qualifiais d’onde de choc, j’ai obtenu :
750 Kg de pression à l’aide d’un coup de poing,
1200 Kg de pression à l’aide d’un coup de pied.



Cette étude m’a incité à essayer ce principe avec les projections de Judo et d’Aïkido, ainsi qu’avec les armes du Kobudo.

J’ai ainsi été amené à découvrir que les atémis (coups de pieds et poings), les projections, les clés (torsions articulaires) et les armes peuvent devenir étroitement liés par ce principe d’onde de choc.
En effet, à partir d’un même mouvement ondulatoire, on peut développer des centaines de techniques différentes.
Il n’est donc pas nécessaire de travailler les arts martiaux séparément. Mon expérience m’a d’ailleurs appris que l’entraînement aux projections développe la puissance des atémis, que les atémis développent la vitesse des techniques d’armes et de projections.

Le mouvement ondulatoire permet ainsi d’étudier tous les arts martiaux en même temps.

On trouve le fondement de toutes les techniques d’arts martiaux dans le Kata de Yoseikan Budo : « TANTO HAPPO ».

Ce kata contient les huit mouvements de base du lancement de l’onde de choc. Ces mouvements sont exploitables à l’infini dans les arts martiaux comme dans le sport.

En conséquence, le YOSEIKAN BUDO n’est pas une synthèse de différentes disciplines, mais bien un art martial basé sur un principe : l’onde de choc, laquelle permet de développer diverses techniques. C’est donc une méthode à part entière. »



Hiroo MOCHIZUKI

Phil Farmer
13th April 2004, 19:12
What a great discussion. If I could get my own organization to have a discussion like this, I would be so happy. Leave it to my karate brothers to do some good thinking about punches.

I do, however, have to make this point. The wave is present in punches, kicks, throws and weapons. Master Hiroo demonstrates this same principle with a katana, 6'bo, even with sai. He uses it with kicks and with throws. The only variation is in the "size" of the movement, very small for a sacrifice throw, larger for a punch, and still larger for a bo staff.

The physics is a great discussion but I confess limited understanding beyond my one physics course in college and my reading of Stephen Hawking. I will leave that to those of you who are familiar with the ideas. I will say, it is not the retraction of the punch that we are talking about here. That is normal muscle contraction. Andrej is correct, the wave movement is a conscious effort. You must be very relaxed to get it right and you must be careful to stay relaxed, the potential for damaging a joint or soft tissue is very real if you get this movement right in a punch or kick.

Thanks for the discussion. Mitchi Mochizuki Sensei would enjoy this kind of discussion so I agree with Robert, anyone should feel free to contact him.

Phil Farmer
President U.S. Yoseikan Budo Association

Andrej Mantei
13th April 2004, 19:33
Gassho ...


Originally posted by Pippo_Jedi
is Hip 'vibration' a term to emphatize the fact that the hip rotates fast foward and back while punching or it's another thing?


simply put: yes !

I think the hip rotation forwards should be rather big (like in the classical punch) whereas rotating back is only a small movement, otherwise you'd "destroy" your own punch as well as your joints probably :).

I've taken some time to make animated gifs... but viewing the result I have to admit that it doesn't satisfy me. Dunno if this clarifies anything at all. You still need a lot of imagination :rolleyes:

however now that they're made I can as well post them :).

Kesshu ...

Andrej Mantei
13th April 2004, 19:35
this would be the classical punch ...

Andrej Mantei
13th April 2004, 19:39
whip like punch ...

(plese keep in mind that - though that little film implies this - you don't pull back your hip when the fist has already hit the target but quite in the last part of the punching movement)

R_Garrelts
13th April 2004, 20:01
Originally posted by Robert Cheshire
Les ceintures noires de Karaté présent ont obtenu, dans le meilleur des cas :
300 Kg de pression à l’aide d’un coup de poing « classique »,
600 Kg de pression à l’aide d’un coup de pied « classique ».
Alors qu’avec l’utilisation du mouvement ondulatoire que je qualifiais d’onde de choc, j’ai obtenu :
750 Kg de pression à l’aide d’un coup de poing,
1200 Kg de pression à l’aide d’un coup de pied.

Were kilograms really the units used in the original study?

Charles Hammond
13th April 2004, 20:08
Originally posted by Robert Cheshire
Here is some of the information Phil was talking about. It's in French, so, either read it or translate it if you wish. Let us know if you have more questions. Master Hiroo's son Mitchi Mochizuki speaks good english and we can always contact him to try to get more information and/or the location of information.

Le mouvement ondulatoire
Par Maitre Hiroo MOCHIZUKI

Hi, do you have the original source for the study? It would be nice to know where it was originally published.

Thanks

johan_frendin
13th April 2004, 20:21
Gassho!

I want to see some live movement in a video!

Johan Frendin

Robert Cheshire
13th April 2004, 23:11
Kg used in the original study? I don't know, but, will try to find out for all of you.

Where was the original information published? This was done back in the 70's (I think was when it was recorded maybe the 60's). I will try to find out where it is published and get back with you.

Live action on video? Two sites that I know have some videos are www.budoasia.com and the yoseikan-assoc link that is in my sig. If you live in Europe Yoseikan Budo should not be too hard to find. Just go to one of the schools and watch a class. The World Stage (week long clinic open to all those who practice YB in the world) will be in France this summer. If you have the chance you can go see that as well.

Per Lindblom
13th April 2004, 23:42
Hi!

Andrej Mantei that was really nice animated pictures.

I wonder if you shouldn't add a whipping motion with the spine also. Leaning forward gives you more support doesn't it? This make the clean figure more complicated of course. Well not to mention if the legs were included. Then I think there would be shifting of the body weight too from back to forward and back again.

Andrej Mantei
14th April 2004, 01:22
Originally posted by Per Lindblom
Hi!

Andrej Mantei that was really nice animated pictures.

I wonder if you shouldn't add a whipping motion with the spine also. Leaning forward gives you more support doesn't it? This make the clean figure more complicated of course. Well not to mention if the legs were included. Then I think there would be shifting of the body weight too from back to forward and back again.

Gassho ...

Thanks :) ... but, though you're right in most points I don't want to spend that much time at that.
Concerning leaning forward, wouldn't that make you lose balance? Of course there's naturally a little bit of leaning forwards but I think it's important to keep your centre of gravity (dunno if this is the correct term) centered or put another way to keep your line of weight/gravity vertical. Wouldn't this as well be supported by the back rotation of the hip or the other way round wouldn't leaning forward destroy the movement or at least make correct punching difficult? However I think that also depends on the respective technique - if you're punching, kicking and aiming high or low.

Kesshu ...

PS: ok, I just need to clarify this. I'm just san-kyu in Shorinji Kempo (my 3rd year now in Shorinji) - though I've tried, practised and do practise various martial arts since I'm about 10. So there are lots of Kenshi on this board with alot more expertise. I'm here not to explain the technique but to get it explained to me.
Everything I posted on this topic just reflects how I think that technique works. ;)

Tripitaka of AA
14th April 2004, 06:22
As Andrej has reminded us in the last post (but worth repeating), this discussion centres on a written description of a method of punching (kicking, etc.) as taught by Mochizuki Sensei... who is nothing to do with Shorinji Kempo. The topic has continued partly as an investigation into whether this method is like ours or not. After some extra explanation, we are beginning to appreciate the differences. Any Kenshi reading this should be aware that this is not necessarily the way that your Sensei wants you to punch. If the hypothesis has been validated in a study, it still does not make this theory the one that should be adopted in Shorinji Kempo classes.

An interesting discussion nontheless, and we greatly appreciate the appearances from Yoseikan practitioners who can help us to interpret Mochizuki Sensei's work.

Per Lindblom
14th April 2004, 09:30
"... I don't want to spend that much time at that."

Hi,

I see what you mean Andrej. I took the liberty of editing your pic, hope you dont mind.

Leaning forward, yes not too much. Leaning forward and twisting makes your line of punch drift in to line with your centre of gravity and target. I thought the whip motion was not only twisting but also the leaning forward. Look from the side when somebody punches. Look for the wave motion forward, originating from the feet up the knee-hip-shoulder-elbow-fist. As if you doing the towel trick (overhand whip). And to get the whip retracting the motion starting from the origin.

oh, this was a gyaku zuki, right?

Ade
14th April 2004, 10:06
Originally posted by Robert Cheshire
...Live action on video? Two sites that I know have some videos are www.budoasia.com and the yoseikan-assoc link that is in my sig. If you live in Europe Yoseikan Budo should not be too hard to find. Just go to one of the schools and watch a class. The World Stage (week long clinic open to all those who practice YB in the world) will be in France this summer. If you have the chance you can go see that as well.

Dear All

Gassho

I watched all of these videos.
I can see no evidence of ANY effective punching at all, let alone the maximisation of a single punch by a wave action, especially on this little diamond:
full contact (http://www.budoasia.com/MMA.html)
It reminded me of my first (so called) Tae Kwon Do sparring class.
What a waste of time.

Lots of talk, no beautiful motion!

This theory, about another sport does not belong on a Shorinji Kempo forum, I suspect I know where its true home is.

Ade

Andrej Mantei
14th April 2004, 13:12
Originally posted by Tripitaka of AA
[...] method of punching (kicking, etc.) as taught by Mochizuki Sensei... who is nothing to do with Shorinji Kempo.
[...]
If the hypothesis has been validated in a study, it still does not make this theory the one that should be adopted in Shorinji Kempo classes.

Gassho ...

Dear David, due to this statement :

"Hiroo [Mochizuki] Sensei, being himself a doctor, demonstrated and explained what many chinese martial arts have always advocated but were not able to explain."

and that I've heard something similar about such kind of movement some time ago I wondered if there'd be such in Shorinji Kempo as well, which some apply but is not explicitly taught/explained or even recognized.

Dear Ade Sensei, unfortunately the videos mentioned above aren't of any help to elucidate. Which doesn't neccessarily mean that there's nothing about it.


Originally posted by Per Lindblom
I see what you mean Andrej. I took the liberty of editing your pic, hope you dont mind.

not at all :)

Kesshu ...

tony leith
14th April 2004, 13:46
I think it's helpful to take a step back and consider what constitutes efficacy in a Shorinji Kempo striking technique. Our aim after all is not to inflict permanent injury or to cause death. Some of our striking techniques in fact require very little actual power to be effective - mei uchi and kinteki geri spring to mind. I think there is a risk (e.g. in terms of thinking about the most effective way to hit a punch bag) of losing quite a lot of what is specific to Shorinji Kempo both as an art and as a means of self defence. We for example have a variety of striking weapons to bring to bear on the various weak points of the human body, and our aim should be to do this in a point specific way. In other words, our understanding should be guided by the five elements of atemi - power as such is not enumerated among them.

I am not saying by the way that power is irrelevant or necessarily undesireable - in think you have to in a sense budget for reality in terms of your expectations, and you can't assume any strike will be 100% accurate, and here some excess of power over what you might need if it were would indeed be helpful. I was training at Brixton with Mizuno Sensei at the weekend, and in his teaching at the moment he seems to be arguing for fluidity and speed over the kind of bodily tension that is necessary to generate great power. This again is predicated on the self defence argument; what you want to do is to prevent somebody from pressing home their attack. You therefore want to get your counter atack to land on target with minimum delay. The 'power' of the counter attack in my view is caused as much by the surprise element achieved by evading or anticipating the attack.

Mizuno Sensei was talking in terms of self defence for women - 'power not so much required' was the exact quote, or something like it. Now I am much stronger than most women ( I am fully aware that there are women who could break me over their knee), but I am the same height as the average height for British women. I do quite a lot of weight conditioning work, mostly as a physiotherapy regime to help keep my knees together. I see blokes in the gym who can bench press well over the weight I am capable of squatting (i.e they can lift with the arm and chest muscles more than the kind of weight I can lift with my leg muscles and my back - around 60 kg). It would be impossible for me to try and compete with these guys in terms of power, and frankly stupid for me to try. If I think in terms of an exchange of blows with much larger males, I can only see one probable outcome. Hence as a matter of realism I find myself increasingly sympathetic to the line that speed is much more important than sheer power.


Tony leith

Robert Cheshire
14th April 2004, 14:38
Originally posted by Ade
I watched all of these videos.
I can see no evidence of ANY effective punching at all, let alone the maximisation of a single punch by a wave action, especially on this little diamond:
full contact (http://www.budoasia.com/MMA.html)
It reminded me of my first (so called) Tae Kwon Do sparring class.
What a waste of time.

Lots of talk, no beautiful motion!

This theory, about another sport does not belong on a Shorinji Kempo forum, I suspect I know where its true home is.

Ade

It has been awhile since I've viewed these clips. However, let's keep in mind a couple of things. Someone had asked about seeing this in a clip. I (in retrospect) should have realized they ment a clip of JUST the wave punch. In viewing some of these action clips you more or less have to know what to look for the see the subtle movements that make it work. The clip you reference is from a section that school does that is a Mixed Martial Arts program and not pure Yoseikan Budo.

I have tried to help explain this concept and have not been trying to push or convert anybody to our style. Your inference about it being a waste of time and your not so subtle hint of where this theory's "true home is" is not needed. I realize that this is the Shorinji Kempo forum and would not expect any less passion about your art from you or your practitioners than I would our own. I would just like to offer that just because it is not a way that you personally would train that it is not necessarily wasteful.

Just food for thought and not meant to be the makings of a fight or war.

Gary Dolce
14th April 2004, 15:16
Originally posted by tony leith
Hence as a matter of realism I find myself increasingly sympathetic to the line that speed is much more important than sheer power.

I have to agree with Tony. I was taught that one of the most important points from the "5 elements of atemi" lesson is what is left out. There is no mention of "power" in that lesson. In one particular howa that I heard on that subject, a very senior teacher went on to say that an obsessive focus on speed (or power) leads to neglect of the other elements. He went so far as to put accuracy at the top of the list of 5 elements as the first priority.

This is not to say that there isn't value in analyzing the basic motions. As long as I have been practicing, I have been trying to make my motions more relaxed, more fluid and wave-like. As to whether that motion should include a small pull back of the hips at the last instant - I'm skeptical that the human body reacts in exactly the same way that a bath towel does. But I will keep watching and questioning the teachers I respect to see if they incorporate this kind of motion.

Joerg
14th April 2004, 15:56
Originally posted by Gary Dolce
I have to agree with Tony. I was taught that one of the most important points from the "5 elements of atemi" lesson is what is left out. There is no mention of "power" in that lesson. In one particular howa that I heard on that subject, a very senior teacher went on to say that an obsessive focus on speed (or power) leads to neglect of the other elements. He went so far as to put accuracy at the top of the list of 5 elements as the first priority.

Well I was taught that the five elements of atemi come in an order (the one in the Fukudokuhon) and so aim as the first is the most important one. Speed is fourth only I think. And power is not in the list.

tony leith
14th April 2004, 16:53
Joerg, I think the five elements of atemi have to be seen as interdependent. I don't see that their ranking in terms of importance can mean that, say, you can get by on accuracy without speed. In a sense, the one that governs all the others is the one that takes longest to learn and is the one that can't be taught as a mechanical skill - timing or strategy.

I think the presence of speed rather than power indicates that this should be our preferred method of imparting energy to a target. I have always been taught (and gone on to teach in my turn) that the basic mode of striking in Shorinji Kempo in terms of both punching and kicking is concussive - i.e the energy is transferred to the target in the shortest space of time possible, after which the striking surface is whipped back. The depth of the strike of course has to be sufficient to activate the desired effect in the target.

I remember Mizuno Sensei teaching once that there is an optimal range to strike from - to summarise what he said brutally, it would be at the point where the end of our hypothetical whip is moving fastest. Shorinji Kempo strikes will not be as effective either before this point or after. I think this is true even of strikes which people tend to conceptualise as a pushing action like sokuto geri. Our aim isn't to propel the attacker bodily away from us. It's to deliver as much energy as possible to the designated weak point and leave it there. You don't want the force you're able to apply to go into moving the attacker's entire mass. Again, there is a basic difference between Shorinji Kempo and combat sports where for entirely sensible reasons people wear gloves etc to reduce the amount of damage repeated blows to the head will inflict.

Last weekend Sensei was also teaching about the importance of the shape the foot and ankle make as a kick is delivered. The foot in straight geri and mawashigeri should never simply be held at right angles to the lower leg. Instead it should be shaped so as to present zen sokutei to the intended target in an unbroken line. Unofrtunately it's quuite hard to describe this without leaving room for confusion and ambiguity - maybe anybody else who was there (this means you, Mr Hyde) might be able to manage a more coherent exposition. The link from this to my discussion above is this again was presented in terms of optimising the fluidity and elasticity of the strike while allowing the maximum impetus to be transmitted from the body down the leg. Thai boxers by contrast when delivering say a front kick to the body will use the whole sole of the foot - their aim IS largely to propel the other fighter back into the range of the heavy artillery (gyaku mawashigeri or equivalent). Our approach is different. It might well be less feffective in the ring, but then Shorinji Kempo is not (and does not pretend to be) a ring fighting system.

Tony leith

Phil Farmer
14th April 2004, 18:10
To answer one question, the study was done in Kg. It was done in France and you would have to contact the France Yoseikan website to get the specific study reference.

I have worked with other styles and seen this motion. The 5th Dan Shotokan instructor in Waco, Texas does this hip movement quite naturally. I want to emphatically state that Master Mochizuki did not invent this movement, it is the result of his observations of a large body of martial arts. He is highly ranked in Shotokan but found it to be ineffective in some situations so he also learned Wado Ryu. He has studied a large body of work and discovered others doing this movement.

I can appreciate that this is a specific thread and forum but the discussion is relevant, regardless of the style. Thank you for letting me jump in here and give some information. I tried to view the video clip noted above from our Taiwan dojo but could not get it to load. As to the comment about comparing the video to Tae Kwon Do class, I would not comment without seeing the video but I will say this, Yoseikan has competitions that represent less than 15% of what we do. Those competitions are in full protective equipment because of the use of weapons, full contact to the entire body, and throws. It would be very difficult to see the punch action in one of those situations.

Oh yes, it is very "beautiful" and might seem to be fluff but one should keep in mind that this practice is being done in a safe environment with safety equipment and rules. The application of our kempo in Yoseikan in a real time situation is very different. When you add the power of the punches and kicks to the throws, espcecially the hallmark sutemi throws of Yoseikan to the body of a person who is not trained to take the fall, the results will be devastating.

I believe, as some have said in this thread that to focus too much on power or speed gets away from the reason for studying technique and martial arts. We are perfecting ourselves, in every aspect of technique and the art as a whole. Sometimes, to grow, we must get specific and dissect an idea or movement to understand it. The danger is in letting the study become the answer instead of the signpost for understanding.

Regards,

Phil Farmer

Pippo_Jedi
14th April 2004, 19:04
Gassho

To Phil Farmer: if it's done in france then it should be in Kg. unfortunately the text speaks of Kg of pressure, and Kg are not a unity of measure for the pression. Kg/cm^2 is. I did not read all the text as reading french requires too much effort, but a text that is supposed to be accurate and does an error like this does not rank good in my 'good works' list.

Regarding the Atemi No Goyouso and speed...
when we talk of 'power' (wich is techically speaking the wrong word) we have to keep in mind what said Tony Leith: we don't need, usually, to move people around, but to strike them. so the aim is to deliver a lot of kinetic energy, or moment if you think in that terms, to the target, not to push the target away. since momentum is mv and kinetic enrgy is 1/2mv^2 speed directly increases the two of them.
it's like cars: if you're trying to crash a target you have to be fast as possible and even a small car can crash many things, to move a vagon full of logs use a truck, slow but 'powerfull'.

my opinins anyway. :-)

David Dunn
14th April 2004, 19:48
On the order of importance topic, it can be argued that the order is important. For example it is better to hit a kyusho not fully effectively than to hit somewhere else. But then again, if you don't reach it or hit it slowly there is little point, so the argument can come unravelled. In the Baseball Goho book it says somewhere about facing an opponent and taking in all of his kyusho with happo moku, so at least let's say the target is very important.

When I was a kyu kenshi the fifth element used to be given as a bit of an afterthought and variously called 'strategy' or 'timing' explained as using atemi when the opponent is distracted or not paying attention. I think kyo-jitsu is a bit subtle. Sensei calls it 'empty' and 'full', and I never quite got the hang of it that way, especially when it was explained that the same elements apply to juho. I think the literal meaning of 'truth/reality' for 'jitsu' is more relevant. You need to understand your partner's 'reality' to realise where openings of kyo exist.

To do this requires, in no small measure, empathy. This is the root reason why I always bang on about 'the correct attack'. For one thing, if you attack properly, then you yourself realise that when your kyo is exploited properly, how effective it is. If you're diligent as an attacker, you can start to develop an empathy with the attack when you're the defender. There is an ex-bouncer, whose name escapes me, who would defuse potential situations by saying things like "how's yer mother these days?" because it addled the intent - that's just manipulating someone's jitsu. I'm sure Ade could tell us about this kind of thing, although I believe he thinks pepper spray is a good 'jitsu-addler' for certain assailants :D

Anyway, in training, I think you should nuture a mentality of thinking only one thing - "this is going to land jodan zuki", "I'm going to try to pull you off balance with this grip". In other words attempt to make the correct 'reality'. It also makes it obvious how "oops, I'm falling forwards" is jitsu, and how much more subtle and useful kyo and jitsu is. Anyway, I think most of us have experienced being hit in a vital point when it is kyo. Even a relatively weak strike can send you to the floor or the fairies. Sensei was talking about effective atemi vs powerful form recently, and he said that a forty percent power sankaku zuki that is kyo is enough, to then decide how nice you want the form of the second one to be. Anyway I think you cannot separate the importance of the elements. Kyo-jitsu binds the whole thing together, and if you don't put your jitsu in the same place as the opponent's kyo it doesn't matter what else you.

Just a note on power. Isn't it included in the five elements? Form is supposed to be an efficient way to generate power. Because that form isn't meant to overly rely on muscular strength it doesn't mean that the form isn't about generation of power. Wave motion through the body is to make as much power with as little reliance on strength as possible. I don't think power should be a dirty word here - power is simply the rate at which work is done, and work is the transfer of mechanical energy. Maximising power is just transferring mechanical energy as quickly as possible. If you can do that at the right angle, and to an area that is kyo, then that's going to work. If you can make a wave through your body to throw someone, when their jitsu is shot to bits, then you're doing a lot of work (power) just very efficiently for the task. Power isn't a synonym for muscular strength, but it is obvious that you need to develop a strong belly, through exercise and breathing.

I still think striking things is good training. Unless you've got a very cooperative partner, a bag or a do is the next best thing :)

Tripitaka of AA
14th April 2004, 20:23
David, was your last post a little rushed? It was less well-formed than your usual high standard (either that or my head is less receptive... come to think of it, that is probably the more likely ;) ).

Andrej Mantei
15th April 2004, 02:20
Gassho ...

Per, either I misunderstand your explanation or we do talk about two different things. What you describe indeed seems to be a classical gyaku zuki with apparently none of the whip action I was talking about. I think the spine movement is not the characteristic part of it. Concerning the towel analogy, it's the very end that counts. It's that which makes the crack by breaking the sound barrier (yeah, I guess you wouldn't have expected that it's that easy to make your towel go faster than 1 mach :D ). That's where the power or rather speed comes from in the whip like punch.

Thus I come to the second point I want to make. There's been some discussion about power and necessity of power in the context of Shorinji Kempo techniques now. For sure, sheer power isn't what Shorinji Kempo is about. But (please note this is a very BIG BUT) this technique would allow you to have bigger impact with less force/strength. I totally agree that in order to strike efficiently in a Shorinji Kempo way it may not be necessary or even advised to use full power. But Shorinji Kempo emphasizes - as I understand - from the perspective of self defense to enable you to defend yourself against a physically superior attacker. Think of people who have a hard time to generate the power necessary to have a desired effect. Wouldn't something that gives rise to the power of their strikes simply by technique be very well inside the idea of Shorinji Kempo? Substitute power with kinetic energy who dislikes the term "power" :).

I stress that I don't advocate to include this technique into the repertoire of Shorinji Kempo (though it might sound that way :)) - that would be vain and inappropriate.
This is to me - as well as to some others I guess - rather like a toy which gives me better insight into physics, mechanics and ideas behind the techniques I am taught. For that very reason I don't like the "It's not Shorinji Kempo, discard it!" attitude.

However, that discussion seems to have reached deadlock. The theory behind has been explained often enough and the next step naturally would be a demonstration by someone who knows what he's talking about. Since there's no video or whatsoever available this should end the discussion before it turns into a discussion for discussion's sake.

Dear David Dunn, I'd like to comment on your last post but I'm not very acquainted with the advanced Shorinji Kempo terminology, so quite plainly, I didn't understand what you were talking about :D.

ok ... here's one more try to explain what I was talking about when using the term whip motion. I know I get carried away from time to time. I'll (try to) stop now :)

Kesshu ...

David Dunn
15th April 2004, 03:13
Originally posted by Tripitaka of AA
David, was your last post a little rushed? It was less well-formed than your usual high standard (either that or my head is less receptive... come to think of it, that is probably the more likely ;) ).

Yes sorry David it's a bit disparate. I've been stung so many times by e-budo losing things that take over fifteen minutes to write.

I was trying to say that kyo-jitsu underpins the five elements of atemi, and that to really learn about kyo-jitsu you need to put yourself in a position of understanding how easily you can 'lose' if your kyo is exploited. In other words training for each other helps to understand kyo-jitsu.

Andrej, I've re-read the post. I can see some gobbledegook, but hardly any terminology. :confused:

A point of pedantry. Power and energy aren't the same thing. Power is the rate of work done, and work in turn is change in energy. So power is rate of change of energy.

Andrej Mantei
15th April 2004, 04:48
Originally posted by David Dunn
I was trying to say that kyo-jitsu underpins the five elements of atemi, and that to really learn about kyo-jitsu you need to put yourself in a position of understanding how easily you can 'lose' if your kyo is exploited. In other words training for each other helps to understand kyo-jitsu.

Andrej, I've re-read the post. I can see some gobbledegook, but hardly any terminology. :confused:

A point of pedantry. Power and energy aren't the same thing. Power is the rate of work done, and work in turn is change in energy. So power is rate of change of energy.

kyo-jitsu, kyo, kyusho, happo moku etc. ... these are the terms I mainly had problems with. So a statement as the above one is something of a puzzle to me. Rather my fault, though :rolleyes:.

Surely power & energy aren't the same :D. Actually, I wasn't referring to power as a physical term (my fault that I'm not consistent in my statements). I just felt that in this thread "power" and "powerful punches" started to become synonyms for raw strength/force so I wanted to use a different, more exact term and to clarify what actually the benefit of this kind of punch would be (higher kinetic energy/velocity of your fist, for that reason making stronger impact).

Tripitaka of AA
15th April 2004, 04:56
Go to bed, both of you, or I shall have to take away your Caffeine ration! :eek:

Per Lindblom
15th April 2004, 08:33
Hi,

Andrej, i agree I don't really get it together with the whip motion. The hinge looks better. It is the very end that makes the crack. Where would that be located on you body? The fist I suppose. The spine motion is not the charachteristic. The body is't constructed as a classical whip. But I found it close enough as a metaphor. The whip is loose and can transmit the motion, the hinge can only be loose in the joints. So loose joints doing the same motion. I think I focus more on transmitting the motion to the fist rather than making a whip slash at the end. It would be better to watch some videos from different punches. I'll study some more.

David Dunn
15th April 2004, 11:00
Originally posted by Tripitaka of AA
Go to bed, both of you, or I shall have to take away your Caffeine ration! :eek:

That was a 3am work session.

Andrej, apologies for the jargon the. Here are some translations:

Five elements of atemi:
1. kyusho - vital points.
2. atemi no ma-ai: good distance to hit.
3. angle.
4. speed.
5. kyo-jitsu.

Kyo means 'empty' and 'jitsu' means 'truth/reality'. Jitsu means the object of your concentration and power (shin, ki, ryoku) - your reality. Kyo refers to states of mind, body, power acting at cross purposes, and appear as openings for atemi. Physical kyo (kyo no taisei) are openings that appear in the stance or the balance, or the fact that the kyusho are more vulnerable at the end of a breathing cycle. Psychological kyo (kyo no taishitsu) is mental unpreparedness or distraction. (Fukudokuhon, p24-5).

Happo moku - lit. "looking in eight directions," i.e. taking in the whole situation without focussing on one point.

tony leith
15th April 2004, 13:05
Just in case anything I've said has given rise to the impression, I don't think power is in itself a bad thing, merely that I think that in its ordinary usage people usually understand it as something like a crushing force continuously applied. People also tend to think that power is something that has to be generated by tension acting through major muscle groups. It is an observable fact that if you tense arm and shoulder muscles, you will not be able to deliver zuki waza nearly as quickly as when your upper body muscles are relaxed (of course tension is required at the point of contact). The same applies to keri waza, but I believe what is misleadingly called hand speed to be even more important on grounds of practicality - there is a much greater risk of exposing your own kyo when you kick, if not to the original attacker, then to one of his buddies. The Fukodukhon tells us the aim of goho is to overwhelm an opponent. My understanding is that this is to be accomplishged through rapid consecutive attacks, not through necessarily decsive force in any one of them. I would suggest that the aim is to confuse and disorientate an attacker at least as much as to say knock them out.

I think Dave's exposition on kyo and jitsu is helpful. I would also absolutely agree that, as I've said before, there is no substitute for hitting things in learning to hit things. I actually think a combination of do work with focus mitts probably affords the best opportunity to deliver Kempo like strikes to moving targets, the do also including the invaluable element of having somebody trying to hit you at the same time. I still remember my consternation when I tried doing shita uke geri while wearing a do for the first time. My partner was really going for the attacks, and initally getting me every time. My hikimi had to get better fast...

Tony leith

David Dunn
15th April 2004, 13:18
Tony, that'd probably be because your sharp minimum tai sabaki is very difficult in a do which adds a few inches to the girth :)

But that's a serious point. Every time I've used a do as a defender, particularly for techniques involving hikimi, I've had to change the idea of distance quite quickly.

Ade
15th April 2004, 13:49
Expand on this theory of optimisation of an atemi waza.

So; conversely; if you're feeling really brave, and the blow is going to land on your body, try moving into the attack allowing it to land as you kiai and counter attack, by rushing the attack you make the attacker miss the vital point, hit at the wrong distance, wrong angle, at the wrong timing in their speed cycle and break their kyo-jitsu.

I learnt it years ago at something else, it's one of my favorites and very disconcerting.

But you've got to really believe :karatekid and remember, NOT THE FACE.

George Hyde
15th April 2004, 14:37
Originally posted by Ade
[B]So; conversely; if you're feeling really brave, and the blow is going to land on your body, try moving into the attack allowing it to land as you kiai and counter attack, by rushing the attack you make the attacker miss the vital point, hit at the wrong distance, wrong angle, at the wrong timing in their speed cycle and break their kyo-jitsu.

Not sure how firmly Ade has his tongue placed in his cheek here but I'll bite...

I actually have first hand experience of trying very hard (and I mean full tilt without let or hindrance) to kick and punch someone employing this very tactic and it is indeed extremely disconcerting.

However, I would suggest that it is only possible if the attacker's atemi is at fault - specifically in the area of kyojitsu. Perfect atemi would require that it is delivered at a point in time when the defender would be unable to respond in this manner. By way of example, I've often sat on the sidelines and studied those more proficient in randori than myself looking for 'weaknesses' in their form. In some cases it is very easy to spot moments when they'd be wide open for a counter and when these moments occur in their characteristic (and therefore easy to spot) moves one becomes filled with confidence. However, when face to face you quickly realise that these moments only ever arise when you yourself are in no position to exploit them.

I've got lots more to say on the whole 'power' thing but need a bit more time to put it together.

Later,

tony leith
15th April 2004, 14:54
Tony, that'd probably be because your sharp minimum tai sabaki is very difficult in a do which adds a few inches to the girth

Frankly in the decade or more since those long off days my girth has increased all by itself, so the conditioning of training in do has probably still proved to be useful ;)(but rueful..)


So; conversely; if you're feeling really brave, and the blow is going to land on your body, try moving into the attack allowing it to land as you kiai and counter attack, by rushing the attack you make the attacker miss the vital point, hit at the wrong distance, wrong angle, at the wrong timing in their speed cycle and break their kyo-jitsu.

Ade, you're a braver man than me. No, seriously, breaking distance is something I always encourage students to do, especially in randori practice. In randori it is observable that most people's instinctive unmediated response to attack most of the time is to backpedal, usually in a straight line. They have to be made to understand that even if this evades the initial attack, it inevitably invites more trouble, and is conceding the initiative to the attacker. As a form of self defence Shorinji Kempo is predicated in seizing the initiative and dominating a situation tactically and strategically, though not usually by directly confronting an attacker's force.

I'm also going to presume to expand a bit on the optimal strike range concept. I really do think it is helpful to think in terms of when it (the punch or kick) is moving most rapidly rather than trying to be powerful throughout the duration of the atemi. Typically this is going to be at the point just before the striking limb would reach full extension (which of course we're not going to allow it to do), bearing in mind that usually the aiming point is some inches past the surface of the target. It's usually instructive to get people to think in terms of punching/kicking through the target to emphasise the commitment of body weight, but I've found it equally helpful to get people to concentrate on the recoil from the strike to emphasise a concussive contact.

The tricky bit is obviously attempting to deliver this kind of blow to a moving target, usually while avoiding an attack in turn. I think it is useful to build up basic drills, say with focus mitts. I would suggest that static pad work in Shorinji Kempo training is not very useful - it is more practical to emphasise proper mai ai by having to move into striking distance, and then get out again ASAP (the necessary corrolary of being able to hit somebody being that they are able to hit you). Once you've got people used to basic movement like say mai chidori ashi jun zuki, you can then incorporate defence against attack e.g by using the same footwork to side slip a gyaku zuki, and then deliver a chodan counter to a focus mitt held by the attacker. The same kind of work can also be done with do, or by combining do and focus mitts.

I should emphasise that I see this kind of training as a useful adjunct to hokei practice, not in any sense a substitute for it. Indeed, the aim should be to develop fundemental aspects of form which are in some senses the building blocks of hokei.

Tony leith

Ade
16th April 2004, 13:59
Originally posted by George Hyde
Not sure how firmly Ade has his tongue placed in his cheek here but I'll bite...I actually have first hand experience of trying very hard (and I mean full tilt without let or hindrance) to kick and punch someone employing this very tactic and it is indeed extremely disconcerting...

Shame on you George:cry:

My intentions were honourable.

For years I have taught the 5 elements of atemi as in order of seniority: V.D.A.S.I.

Whilst trying to emphasise their equality.

:idea:Of late I have come to genuinely believe that they break into 3 categories.

Easy to affect: distance.

Difficult to affect: vital points, angle, speed.

Only possible in a moment of Sen: inattention.

:up:But I have also observed that simple is often the most effective.

When dealing with very violent people I often consider how to cross from neutral, through danger and into physical contact space.
It does not have to be done in haste but it has to be done confidently and should render the violent person with few effective attacks left at their disposal.
This control of response/attack distance usually ends up with the violent person being effectively contained, like stepping inside the arc of a baseball bat, it also lessens their capacity to cause damage.

At this range what Shorinji Kempo gives me is a huge advantage in close range controlling violence that my subject; hopefully; doesn't possess.:shot::smash::saw:

I then create mental inattention by employing a tactic both Tony and 2 Dave's :mst: use in this forum:

I talk at them so long that they give up and do things my way!:nw::moon:

Good mental health.

Ade

George Hyde
16th April 2004, 16:19
Hi Ade,


Originally posted by Ade
For years I have taught the 5 elements of atemi as in order of seniority: V.D.A.S.I.

Whilst trying to emphasise their equality.


The equality thing is really important. I think it's quite natural for people to want to impose some order of importance but despite constantly being expected to do this, when teaching the five elements of atemi I don't employ any kind of hierarchy. This is for three reasons.

Firstly, these elements are just that elements. Just like hydrogen and oxygen are the elemental constituents of water all five are essential to, yet neither one more important in the application of atemi.

Secondly, whilst it may be helpful to ponder the subject in some kind of hierarchy, as I see it, it's just not possible to deploy one's understanding in a hierarchical (step-by-step) manner. In practice although there is inevitably a linear progression of events through time (seeing the opportunity, committing to a course of action, initiating the action, completing) the limits on human perception are such that all of the five issues must come together simultaneously. Even if one could find sufficient cognitive resources to assemble the elements in some predetermined order the end result would be the same - water cares not whether the hydrogen was added to the oxygen or vice-versa.

Lastly, to work on some kind of hierarchy would necessarily impose values on the elements. In practice, for example in hokei where one is able to consider/reflect on each of the points in isolation, a hierarchy of value may lead to some being given greater consideration at the expense of others.

Consider atemi in the absence of any one of its elements and the best you can hope for is a strike which will produce sufficient kyo in your opponent to make way for a more decisive intervention. (Having said that - I wouldn't want to suggest that such would be utterly useless - in fact, Mizuno Sensei was advocating the value of such circumstances only last weekend.) At worst, you'll end up with no strike at all.

I sense thread drift here but I think it's quite a natural drift. The initial post was about employing specific form to maximise one's 'power output'. I think it was Tony L who made the point that we have to consider what we're actually trying to achieve before we start signing up to any particular regime/method and I couldn't agree more. True, if I can smash my way bare handed through a brick wall, then woe betide anyone who gets in my way - but we're talking about atemi here - it's more than just the pure physics of nondescript inanimate masses coming together at speed - it's specifically about striking the body. Yes I want to ensure that I maximise the efficiency of generating force in my striking techniques but I'm not striving for the kind of power that will explode my opponent like a bag of offal. I have plenty of first hand experience that tells me that the average individual with average technique is capable of exerting massive influence over other individuals providing they come into contact with them at the right target, at the right angle, at the right speed, from the right distance, at the right moment.

Later,

tony leith
16th April 2004, 17:36
Yes I want to ensure that I maximise the efficiency of generating force in my striking techniques but I'm not striving for the kind of power that will explode my opponent like a bag of offal.

Lovely image. True enough though - if you want to or don't care about inflicting potentially lethal damage, use a weapon. It'd be a damn sight easier (that's what they're for). To my mind, in Shorinji Kempo as far as possible we're exercising a self denying ordinance re. the level of damage we want to inflict. I think I've said before that I perceive a difference between the use of force and violence in self defence situations. To me, the latter has connotations of being out of control, and in that kind of condition you're likely to expose yourself never mind others to undue risk of harm.


I have plenty of first hand experience that tells me that the average individual with average technique is capable of exerting massive influence over other individuals providing they come into contact with them at the right target, at the right angle, at the right speed, from the right distance, at the right moment.

Too damn true. Most if not all of the occaisions in which I have been temporarily incapacitated in training have been the result of correct placement and timing. If somebody catches you in suigetsu and sends your diaphragm into spasm there's not a lot you can do about it. You could apply a lot of force to an adrenalised attacker with relatively little effect at the time - they might well realise that you've broken their ribs later, but that isn't going to help you there and then. Again, the relevant consideration is the effect we want to achieve. As much as anything for self defence, we're probably trying to open up the possibility of avenues of escape (which incidentally, at least in the UK is something the law is likely to look much more favourably on than deftly breaking somebody's windpipe with a finger jab).

I also couldn't agree more that ultimately an effective atemi will by definition embody all five of the elements of atemi.

Tony leith

Ade
16th April 2004, 17:40
Originally posted by George Hyde
Hi Ade,

The equality thing is really important. I think it's quite natural for people to want to impose some order of importance but despite constantly being expected to do this, when teaching the five elements of atemi I don't employ any kind of hierarchy. This is for three reasons.

Firstly, these elements are just that elements. Just like hydrogen and oxygen are the elemental constituents of water all five are essential to, yet neither one more important in the application of atemi.

Secondly, whilst it may be helpful to ponder the subject in some kind of hierarchy, as I see it, it's just not possible to deploy one's understanding in a hierarchical (step-by-step) manner. In practice although there is inevitably a linear progression of events through time (seeing the opportunity, committing to a course of action, initiating the action, completing) the limits on human perception are such that all of the five issues must come together simultaneously. Even if one could find sufficient cognitive resources to assemble the elements in some predetermined order the end result would be the same - water cares not whether the hydrogen was added to the oxygen or vice-versa.

Lastly, to work on some kind of hierarchy would necessarily impose values on the elements. In practice, for example in hokei where one is able to consider/reflect on each of the points in isolation, a hierarchy of value may lead to some being given greater consideration at the expense of others.

Consider atemi in the absence of any one of its elements and the best you can hope for is a strike which will produce sufficient kyo in your opponent to make way for a more decisive intervention. (Having said that - I wouldn't want to suggest that such would be utterly useless - in fact, Mizuno Sensei was advocating the value of such circumstances only last weekend.) At worst, you'll end up with no strike at all.

I sense thread drift here but I think it's quite a natural drift. The initial post was about employing specific form to maximise one's 'power output'. I think it was Tony L who made the point that we have to consider what we're actually trying to achieve before we start signing up to any particular regime/method and I couldn't agree more. True, if I can smash my way bare handed through a brick wall, then woe betide anyone who gets in my way - but we're talking about atemi here - it's more than just the pure physics of nondescript inanimate masses coming together at speed - it's specifically about striking the body. Yes I want to ensure that I maximise the efficiency of generating force in my striking techniques but I'm not striving for the kind of power that will explode my opponent like a bag of offal. I have plenty of first hand experience that tells me that the average individual with average technique is capable of exerting massive influence over other individuals providing they come into contact with them at the right target, at the right angle, at the right speed, from the right distance, at the right moment.

Later,

I agree, with what he said...plus I think there's an element of Joerg's thread here about learning how to teach.

I've always believed that there are no rules as to how to teach, but that the philosophy acts as signposts up the mountain.

The path you tread is the one you choose, or deserve according to your Kharma.

Ade

PS But I still like to get close enough to smell my opponent!

Martin S
20th April 2004, 13:11
I share the doubt expressed by certain previous posters that "hip-vibration" would result in harder kicks or punches. Muay Thai stylists and Boxers, arguably the most powerful strikers in the world in their respective fields, get their power from following through with their body weight when they kick/punch. There is no "whip action", although it may appear so from the speed of their strikes. If there was a way to punch harder or faster, it would have been applied in full contact sports already. Roy Jones Jr. can throw seven clean punches in one second and most likely he punches harder than any karateka on the planet, hip vibration or not.

Ade
20th April 2004, 14:24
For those of you who don't know Roy Jones Jr.

ouch (http://www.personal.psu.edu/users/m/r/mrz121/cmpsc203.html)

He's fairly solid at punching.

Tripitaka of AA
20th April 2004, 14:41
Originally posted by Martin S
Roy Jones Jr. can throw seven clean punches in one second

Anyone got a link to something that would illustrate this kind of speed? Sounds phenomenal!

Martin S
20th April 2004, 15:42
Originally posted by Tripitaka of AA
Anyone got a link to something that would illustrate this kind of speed? Sounds phenomenal!
This is actually a piece of hearsay, a poster on another martial arts forum mentioned that he had seen it on a video clip online(downloaded from a DC++ server I believe). I'll ask him to provide a link or some way of posting it here.

I'm bound to believe it, based on that it was a respectable poster that brought it up and the fact that Roy Jones Jr. is the best boxer alive, pound-for-pound. I've seen him fight, and his hand speed is amazing.

Martin S
20th April 2004, 20:39
Here's what I could find out about the hand speed of RJJ, BTW:

from sherdog.com's boxing forum:

There was a 6 week sports documentary series here in the UK(1996 if i remember correctly) called 'Contenders'. One episode focused on boxing, and they used two boxers for the show. One being former WBC super middleweight champion Richie Woodhall, and Roy Jones Jr, at the time considered the best p4p boxer in the world. Woodhall was a middleweight contender at the time of the filming. They used those two in particular because Roy was the best fighter in the world and Woodhall as a UK boxer (where the series was being made) envisaged fighting him at some point, in addition to having previously met as amateurs in the semi final of the Seoul Olympics.

The programme had a heavy sports science base, with researchers from Cambridge University performing tests on Woodhall. Initially, the researchers wnated to perform a barrage of tests on Roy at their labs in Cambridge, but Roy being Roy, refused to travel to the UK, saying that he couldn't spare the time. He agreed to the tests, as long as the researchers traveled to Pensacola, Florida. They couldn't transport all of their equipment over, so the tests were done on Woodhall instead.

However, Roy Jones' handspeed was measured in Pensacola by the team, and they said that he threw 6 short hooks and uppercuts inside of a second. They were performed on a floor to ceiling ball. They showed this in slow motion. Roy blinked occasionally in the slow motion replay, and each punch was clearly quicker than an eye blink. Truly amazing.

So I was wrong, it was six punches in one second. That's still pretty decent, don't you think? ;)

colin linz
21st April 2004, 09:33
Six punches in a second is bloody quick, it is amazing what the human body can be trained to achieve. The only problem with this level of speed is the work you need to achieve it and the short time you can keep it when considering lifespan.

I think for mere mortals like myself I would be better served trying to develop fluid movement and sound technique, this will stay with me for much longer. Fluid techniques all ways seem fast even when the movement is not that fast. When it comes to human performance you can make big gains with a relatively modest amount of training, but to shave of the small amounts that you need to turn your performance into record breaking requires a huge commitment to training.

Andrej Mantei
21st April 2004, 09:37
hear hear ... :)

George Hyde
21st April 2004, 11:10
Hang on...


Originally posted by Martin S
They were performed on a floor to ceiling ball.

...not knowing much about boxing training and certainly not wanting to pick a fight with RJJ but... isn't the point of the floor to ceiling ball that it flies rapidly back toward the puncher at high speed? Would the time between impacts be the same for a stationary target?

Later,

George

Ade
21st April 2004, 11:26
Originally posted by Ade
Not if they get hit like this;

bear with me, I'll bounce back...honest (http://www.personal.psu.edu/users/m/r/mrz121/cmpsc203.html)

johan_frendin
22nd April 2004, 07:54
Gassho!

Some people seemed to like my tips about heavy bag practice so here is one more for the more experienced kenshis.

If you are a more experienced kenshi you have a fair understanding of proper mechanics through forms like Tenchiken and Giwaken. But in forms there is no impact, as there is against a heavy bag. So there will be very little benefit to your strength and body mechanics. Forms are also predictable and cannot develop fluid unpredictable offensive and defensive movements. Our goal on the heavy bag must therefore be to act spontaneous, fluid, seamless, and in the end unpredictable. But to reach this goal we must start with predictable movement and walk towards the unpredictable movements.

Our recipe for this heavy bag work session is Tenchiken 1 that contains several offensive and defensive movements such as:
Jun choku zuki, gyaku choku zuki, yoko kagi zuki
soto uke, uwa uke. uchi uke, shita uke, uchi harai uke
keri age

Before you start you need a plan. Choose the attacks and defensive movements you need to practice from the recipe tenchiken 1. I give you a couple of basic examples (among many) to use – Jun choku zuki , gyaku choku zuki, yoko kagi zuki, Combinations like Jun– gyaku choku zuki, gyaku choku zuki - soto uke yoko kagi zuki. Jun choku zuki – soto uke yoko kagi zuki, Jun– gyaku choku zuki and uwa uke geri when the bag swings back.

Focus on staying relaxed, doing tsuki and keri wasa with perfect mechanics, and fast. Always work on your tsuki and keri wasa that start from and return to a solid kamae. Sloppy behaviour when training only results in bad habits and poor technique. Perform your combination over and over again for 2-3 minutes with 1 minute recovery in between from both migi and hidari game. Work for about 1 hour and you get a perfect cardiovascular workout.

Key points to focus on during practice:

- Do not try to over penetrate the bag with your tsuki or keri wasa.
If you do you won't be able to generate good skill. You should make impact with the bag as your arm or leg nears full extension. You should penetrate a couple of inches beyond the “surface” of the bag for an optimal power. One common problem when you start to work on the heavy bag is that you begin to "push" the bag while punch or kick, and are fooled to believe you are "punching/kicking hard". To avoid this “pushing” tsuki or keri wasa be aware of the distance when you hit the bag. The power comes at the end of your tsuki and keri wasa and the bag will swing only a little but not very much if you are hit properly.

- Control the heavy bag.
Think of the bag swinging in a (small) pattern like (+). As a general rule, use choku zuki or keri age as the bag swings toward you and kagi zuki when it's moving side to side. But also use various umpoho to move around the heavy bag to control it.

- Keep you head between your knees while moving.
Umpoho with proper balance is an extremely important point when you want to create ability to apply your offensive and defensive movements properly. If you have proper balance you can hit or kick very hard even if you are a rather small built person. But if you have poor balance you cannot “deliver” at all and also run the risk of be knocked out very easily. Therefore avoid turn your waist to much to the sides and be conscious of keeping the head between your knees in all offensive and defensive movement but especially while doing (soto uke) kagi zuki. I know that Roy Jones Jr constantly turning his waist to the sides but he is a professional boxer and if you are an office worker practicing two times a week avoid it at all costs.

- Perform the techniques in short sequences in order to control the bag.
Tsuki and keri wasa in combination is very fun to practice and important to understand if you want to become a skilled Shorinjikempo kenshi. Shorinjikempo curriculum is filled with different fun combinations and they are fun to practice at the heavy bag. When you practice combinations notice how smooth it feels, with your hips and body in a proper position to perform the next tsuki or keri wasa. Be aware of, that the more tsuki and keri wasa you do in each combination, the more likely you are to be in one spot and be in risk of getting punched or kicked. So perform a combination and move.

This is a couple of key points to focus on during practice. If you “stay” with the heavy bag for a several months regularly other important aspects of tsuki and keri wasa will be revealed automatically. If you combine this practice with randori you will soon find out by yourself that the word is not the thing and the only thing that matters is practice.


Johan Frendin

tony leith
22nd April 2004, 14:43
Pretty sound advice from Johan on bag work. Myself, I see two main utilities in bag work, heavy or otherwise. One is to focus on developing goood technique, the other is to use it for physical conditioning -this of course does not mean disregarding form entirely. In either case, not being static is important. I would say this applies to any kind of impact work in Shorinji Kempo. While there is some value is focussing on some elements of the mechanics of atemi from a standing condition, I tend to think that mobility based work is much more useful - as Johan pointed out, in the end we're thinking about trying to hit something which might well be making a determined effort to hit back.

The kind of hand speed that a supremely well conditioned athelete can achieve is of course admirable, but probably something not something that those of us not doing something for a living can reaonably hope to emulate. I remember an exerciswe where the world record holder for continuous press ups (perhaps not surprisingly somebody serving a long prison term) was put in the ring with a pretty decent boxer. I'm afraid sheer power prevailed. Again, most of us don't having the time to do umpteen hundred press ups a day.

I would have thought that for us, speed is not something that can be considered in isolation. Timing after all is matter of our interaction with a partner or opponent. Apparent speed i.e. relative to an attack or attacking combination is what counts. Here I think the kind of thing that I've heard Mizuno Sensei emphasise in recent months is critical - keeping a relaxed body condition until the point of impact, working on speed and fluidity - and this is something I'm trying to concentrate on in my own training and teaching.

Tony leith

colin linz
22nd April 2004, 22:09
Johan,

I have enjoyed your tips on heavy bag work. I do have a question though; have you experienced any joint problems from the loads applied to them from heavy bag work? The reason I ask is that I was advised some years ago that this could happen. I was advised that the use of a Do has less stress to the joint and moves like a person. I think that both ways offer something of value, but have always wondered about the long-term effects of heavy bag work.

Martin S
23rd April 2004, 07:49
Colin,

I read on a Muay Thai website (www.lannamuaythai.com) that not wrapping the hands while performing lots of heavy bag work could lead to arthritic hands. If it's something you do on a regular basis, it's probably a good idea to use wraps.

colin linz
23rd April 2004, 09:58
Martin,

Thanks for the tip. I have avoided doing much work with a heavy bag because of what I had been told in the past. Johans training tips sound well structured and show merit, so it's something I'm thinking about. The strapping of the hands would add considerable support and sounds like a good idea.

johan_frendin
23rd April 2004, 11:54
Gassho Colin!

I am happy that you liked my posts.

As I mentioned in one of my posts your top priority when doing heavy bag training has to be safety. If you feel sore in your hands or pain in your joints stop immediately and do some other training. Learn to listen to your body and respect the feedback that it gives you.

I have learnt that muscles adapt faster than the connective tissues and because of that you should start your heavy bag training slow and easy. For me a heavy bag can never substitute your training partner and I use it only once a week so I have no problems with injury. I have been kickboxing for 2,5 years know and many of those guys use boxing gloves instead of bag gloves to reduce the stress on the wrist, elbows and shoulders.

I have been working out on the heavy bag for several years know and I have never use hand wraps. But maybe you should?
Try by yourself and use your own judgement what feels best for you.

Johan Frendin