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xensu
6th April 2004, 16:17
Quick question - what is the significance of the sageo wrap on the saya. (http://www.geocities.com/alchemyst/sageo.htm)

I've been taught to use the sageo to hold up the sleeves. So we keep the sageo in the obi tied in a nuse like knot which is fanned out at the top. You pop it out from the obi and hook it with your tounge through the fanned opening then pull with your teeth spearing your arms through the opening while kicking you your head back slightly to create an upword movement. It comes out to form a figure eight with the "x" accross your back. This is one way to do it i'm told but you have to be careful about biting your tounge :p

sven beulke
7th April 2004, 08:50
Hello Jack,
the sageo wraps are for display on a swordstand and have decorative reasons.
regards

Mekugi
7th April 2004, 09:07
I tie mine totally different, for functional reasons only.

I stretch it the length of the saya and tie the knot on the bottom end. Kind of like stringing a guitar.

In this way, it is easy to untie for keiko and is free of the kinks that happen when you have a thick sageo.

-Russ

nicojo
7th April 2004, 20:06
Mr. Ebert,

Can you post a pic or link showing how you tie the bottom knot? Do you tie it around the saya or do you have a saya with two *can't remember the name right now, but the little nubbins that the sageo loops through*?

Thanks,

Shimura
7th April 2004, 22:24
I either let mine hang freely (meaning draped over the saya with the remainder hangning) or, for practical purposes, I make a small loop that I pull through my himo. This of course a large loop on your left side that stays close to the body and will not have the tendency of "snaring" anything. I've been taught that either way is kosher, it all depends on preference.

Mekugi
8th April 2004, 06:12
Originally posted by nicojo
Mr. Ebert,

Can you post a pic or link showing how you tie the bottom knot? Do you tie it around the saya or do you have a saya with two *can't remember the name right now, but the little nubbins that the sageo loops through*?

Thanks,

Yeah sure!

Call me Russ, Mr. Ebert sounds weird ;)

Mekugi
8th April 2004, 06:19
After running the sageo down the saya, double the end back to create a loop. Then you wrap the loose end around 2 times, fold it back and pull it through the loop. Pushing the knot down towards the end of the saya tightens it and covers up the whole thing.

Mekugi
8th April 2004, 06:23
The Kogusoku...

Mekugi
8th April 2004, 06:29
A look at the Kogusoku knot upclose to get the idea...

nicojo
8th April 2004, 07:50
Perfect, thanks Russ. I knew one of the ways to loop it in the obi, but Shimura had the other, so I am good to go. Thanks again guys.

Shimura
8th April 2004, 21:19
gomenasai, I thought you were talking about when you have the sword thrust through the obi, during practice. As far as storing, then I also do it as Russ so amply demonstrated. Glad you got the info you needed though.

Jeff Hamacher
9th April 2004, 01:20
please pardon the intrusion of a non-sword type into the world of sword types ... my impression was that the sageo functioned as a kind of leash to keep the scabbard from sliding around in your belt, especially sliding forward during a poorly-executed draw. one of the Japanese dictionaries i have floating around the house defines it that way, anyhow. the practice i've seen in iai demos and jidai geki (check out Ame Agaru) is running it around the scabbard and tucking the knotted end of the sageo under the knot of your himo, which is what i think Gary described. any thoughts?

nicojo
9th April 2004, 02:32
Welcome to the world of sword types. We will be kind to you. I have visited your world of Aikido and found it to my liking. Your people have been kind to me and my intrusions there.

Since I am a beginner, and I am speaking, I don't know much (re: your sig.), but as you can see there are several things done with sageo.

Seems that your post is correct concerning the use of sageo in the active sense, securing the saya to the obi. Sageo can also be used to tie back sleeves, some people in my dojo do this, though not always with the sageo on their saya. They are wealthy and own more than one sageo. I believe I read a thread somewhere on e-budo that there is a specific term for this use of it, and that the sageo may be smaller/thinner, but I may be thinking of when a different cord is used to tie up somebody. Well maybe someone who knows will speak.

And then the ornamental way, whether on a stand or in storage. This thread kind of covered all of these uses, so you have one-stop shopping. It's a versatile thing. I can't remember the more specific threads, but this is the only one I have seen with a description of the long "storage" tie that Russ showed. The link in the first post is of two more ornate ties if you want. One is very complex, perhaps to show off the sword for a potential buyer or admirers or something. The other is more practical. Russ's is most practical.

edited to say: well all I did was summarize, but hey maybe some new guy will find this useful some day. ps: Shimura, nothing to apologize for, now all the info is more or less on one page!

Shimura
9th April 2004, 02:57
Welcome Aikido type to the world of sword wielders. I'm also an Aikido type as well, and practice my iai at my Aikido dojo that I attend. While we are still on the subject of sageos, there is another thing that it can be used for.

When I was training in Japan I was also shown a method of using the sageo as a weapon in itself. How you may ask? Easy, just like you could use a wet towel. We were shown how to snap it in someone's face, or even try and use it to catch someone elses sword (if it is still in the saya). Did not believe it was possible myself until I saw Yamada sensei pull it off. Maybe not chivalrous either, but truly practical.

Mekugi
9th April 2004, 03:31
HEY!
Jeff it is good to see you back in town! I've seen your posts on E-budo lately and haven't said my welcomes back. Beg your pardon! :)

I have heard tell that the sageo is also used to keep the sword in the most economic place when running or thrashing around through a myraid of envornments; kind of a multi-purpose safety feature.

My feeble impression is practical above all else.

-Russ




Originally posted by Jeff Hamacher
please pardon the intrusion of a non-sword type into the world of sword types ... my impression was that the sageo functioned as a kind of leash to keep the scabbard from sliding around in your belt, especially sliding forward during a poorly-executed draw. one of the Japanese dictionaries i have floating around the house defines it that way, anyhow. the practice i've seen in iai demos and jidai geki (check out Ame Agaru) is running it around the scabbard and tucking the knotted end of the sageo under the knot of your himo, which is what i think Gary described. any thoughts?

ghp
9th April 2004, 06:34
. I believe I read a thread somewhere on e-budo that there is a specific term for this use of it, ... Tasuke. They are still worn in the kitchen by women who wear kimono. Not 100% sure of the etymology because I haven't seen the kanji -- but I believe it is from tasukeru which means "to help."

Using a sageo is problematic because it's troublesome to remove it from the kurigata. Tasuke can be of any cloth material.

Regards,
Guy

Ron Beaubien
9th April 2004, 10:26
Hello,

Guy Power wrote:


Tasuke. They are still worn in the kitchen by women who wear kimono. Not 100% sure of the etymology because I haven't seen the kanji -- but I believe it is from tasukeru which means "to help."

I believe the word is "tasuki" and the kanji is æF according to Kojien and Kenkyusha's New Japanese-English Dictionary.

See this post (http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?postid=246266#post246266) and my following reply (http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?postid=246290#post246290) to Mr. Richard Elias. Both of the messages were written during a larger discussion of Hojo Jitsu [sic] which touched on this same topic of tying back the sleeves.

Tendo-ryu often demonstrates wearing tasuki but I have only seen them tie up their sleeves before going on to demonstrate. In Buko-ryu, when demonstrating in montsuki, the sleeves are tied up as part of the formal reshiki. There are most likely other koryu schools that still wear tasuki when demonstrating as well.

I hope this helps.

Regards,

Ron Beaubien

Mekugi
9th April 2004, 13:07
Sheesh,

This thread is like a family reunion!

Damned good to see ya Ron!

Do you have any pictures that you could post of the tasuki being worn?

Always,

Russ

btw...I think it should be mandatory for terms to be written out with hiragana and the corresponding kanji for foreigners like myself. It saves oodles of time, especially in a place where pronunciation is 90% of the battle.

ghp
9th April 2004, 17:24
Ron! Thanks for the correction. My! but it's been a long time since I've heard from you. Everything going well I hope?

I first learned how to tie a tasuki back in 1971 when I was learning Mugai Ryu. To my knowledge, the tasuki technique is not a "Mugai Ryu technique" -- I just happened to learn it from the teacher. That tasuki technique was very similar to what was posted on this thread earlier; and based on memory (from a thread years ago) -- it is very similar to the technique that Diana Skoss learned.

1. Grasp one end of tasuki in your left hand, place it in your mouth, and anchor with your teeth; the "working" portion will be on left side of the mouth. Still holding the portion in your left hand near your mouth (hand can now can slip down the tasuki by about 8-12 inches), now grasp the working end in your right hand near middle of tasuki. You now have both hands on the tasuki.

2. Release your left hand -- you now have a loop between your mouth and right hand. When you release your left hand you create a "loop" between the mouth, tasuki, and right hand.

3. With the right hand, "throw" the loop around and to the rear of your left shoulder in a counter-clockwise direction while simultaneously "spearing" the loop with your left hand.

4. While your right hand is behind your head, bring it over the right shoulder (from rear to front) and pull to tighten the loop -- this action ensnares the left kimono sleeve.

5. Switch hands. Using the left hand now, "throw" the loop around and to the rear of your right shoulder in a clockwise direction while simultaneously "spearing" the loop with your right hand.

6. While your left hand is behind your head, bring it over the left shoulder (from rear to front). Tighten the loop by pulling the tasuki over your left shoulder to ensnare the right kimono sleeve.

6. With your right hand, grasp the anchor-end from your mouth, tie a pretty bow, and release the knot -- gently guiding it into place behind your back.

After practicing a while you will be able execute this technique in a smooth, elegant, figure-of-eight movement.

Cheers,
Guy

Jeff Hamacher
9th April 2004, 22:07
thanks for the welcome, everyone. sadly, aikido isn't really on my list of activities anymore because of bad knees; even jo, which is supposed to be my main deal martial-arts-wise, hasn't been getting much attention recently. [sigh]

Originally posted by Mekugi
HEY!
Jeff it is good to see you back in town! I've seen your posts on E-budo lately and haven't said my welcomes back. Beg your pardon!

no pardons need begging, friend! i sorta went into Stranger Mode for a long while, trying to get life set up here in Canada. glad to make contacts with the old virtual crowd again.

i suppose the sageo, like many other fittings to Japanese bladed weapons, could serve a practical purpose while at the same time serve an esthetic purpose. i mean, if samurai weren't concerned with esthetics, why would they bother getting specially-shaped tsuba or beautifully lacquered saya?

Mekugi
10th April 2004, 09:19
I suppose the sageo, like many other fittings to Japanese bladed weapons, could serve a practical purpose while at the same time serve an esthetic purpose. I mean, if samurai weren't concerned with esthetics, why would they bother getting specially-shaped tsuba or beautifully lacquered saya?

Hi again Jeff!
That entirely depends on the time period we're talking about, the social level of the bushi and their accumulated wealth- wouldn't you say? At least for the decorative stuff. A lot of what is left over today was never taken to war or used in such a violent manner, hence we still have it around- pointing finger at the not-so violent types.
My favorite example is the traditional "chommage" hairstyle that rose out of necessity. It became a fashion and eventually took over the standard in what we see today as traditional Japanese hair -style. However, it was serving function first.

It's like that with all things, I believe!

Jeff Hamacher
10th April 2004, 20:47
Russ,

oh, absolutely, i agree that nicer-lookin' stuff would have been owned by bushi who were wealthy enough and living in an age peaceful enough to afford finery. i also agree with your point that there are many examples of practical habits or objects that grew into etiquette or decorations. what's the deal with chommage and its practical necessity? i always thought that bushi wore their hair like that to avoid the embarassment of male pattern baldness! am i right?!?

ChrisMoon
11th April 2004, 11:44
Russ,

Where did you buy your kogusoku? I am looking for one or a few. I have perused a few websites that sell weapons and I have not seen any. Thanks!

Mekugi
11th April 2004, 16:09
Originally posted by Jeff Hamacher
Russ,

oh, absolutely, i agree that nicer-lookin' stuff would have been owned by bushi who were wealthy enough and living in an age peaceful enough to afford finery. i also agree with your point that there are many examples of practical habits or objects that grew into etiquette or decorations. what's the deal with chommage and its practical necessity? i always thought that bushi wore their hair like that to avoid the embarassment of male pattern baldness! am i right?!?

Jeff,

From my meager understanding it was a design that accomodated wearing a helmet. I have also heard that the oiling and styling kept lice away and made washing obsolete for a couple weeks. The Sumo heya in the Kuwana Chinkoku Shrine in tell me that their's protects against head injuries. The bald scheme fits even better!!! ;) (Note to self, talk to the baber at the sumo stable)...


Originally posted by ChrisMoon
Where did you buy your kogusoku? I am looking for one or a few. I have perused a few websites that sell weapons and I have not seen any. Thanks!

Chris,

That was my 2003 X-mas present from my pal Steve Delaney! He bought that up in Tokyo somewhere. Want me to drop him a line? It's pretty sweet; I saw his and went ape over it, so he knew what to get me on the holiday!


Always,

-Russ

ChrisMoon
12th April 2004, 08:04
Originally posted by Mekugi




Chris,

That was my 2003 X-mas present from my pal Steve Delaney! He bought that up in Tokyo somewhere. Want me to drop him a line? It's pretty sweet; I saw his and went ape over it, so he knew what to get me on the holiday!


Always,

-Russ

YES! I would really appreciate that. I should try dropping him a line as well.

Steve Delaney
13th April 2004, 01:38
The sageo is basically just a retaining cord for your weapon, very much like the old lanyards on military and law enforcement pistols & revolvers. The sageo ensured that the saya of your katana/kodachi/tanto didn't fall out of your hakama. That was it's primary function. Other functions such as using the sageo as a tasuki or as a nawa for hojo depends on the ryuha.

Every ryuha has a certain way of tying the sageo.

Pity Tanaka Fumon didn't take heed in that video eh? ;) :rolleyes: :laugh:

Cheers.

George Kohler
13th April 2004, 01:44
Originally posted by Saitama Steve
Pity Tanaka Fumon didn't take heed in that video eh? ;) :rolleyes: :laugh:


Wasn't it like three times?

Steve Delaney
13th April 2004, 01:47
Heh heh, yeah, something like that. Tanaka's rayskin handled tanto looked really cool....except when it was bouncing on the floor. :rolleyes:

George Kohler
13th April 2004, 02:27
Steve,

What was that jujutsu school Tanaka was demo'ing? The one where he would get into a low stance when doing zanshin.

Mekugi
13th April 2004, 02:27
Pity Tanaka Fumon didn't take heed in that video eh?


HEY he was merely demonstrating the way NOT to do something. The same as he demonstrated how not resheath your sword.

This makes all of us HIS STUDENTS. :D :rolleyes:

-R

xensu
13th April 2004, 05:07
learned to lead with the sageo tonight.. tieing a peirced heart knot catching the foot... then redirecting right as the person is about to get up which fatigues them.. samurai tactic. Learned a technique to "pop" the sword away from the enemy by locking the sageo around the tsuba. Also learned a technique to "pop" a cane with the sageo. Learned a technique to use the obi as a weapon.. by quickly tieing a bone shaped object at the end of the obi. I would assume you could do something similar with the sageo.

xensu
13th April 2004, 05:13
i suppose the sageo, like many other fittings to Japanese bladed weapons, could serve a practical purpose while at the same time serve an esthetic purpose. i mean, if samurai weren't concerned with esthetics, why would they bother getting specially-shaped tsuba or beautifully lacquered saya?

Well I guess the technique of catching the foot from a chest kick with a sageo can be supplemented by the fancy decorations around the chest area - it makes it harder to visually pick out the sageo.

Steve Delaney
13th April 2004, 06:04
Xensu,

Exactly what ryuha are you training in?

xensu
13th April 2004, 06:16
Saitama Steve -

An art called Aizu O Dome the art choose not to be listed as a ryuha.

xensu
13th April 2004, 06:17
double post

Mekugi
13th April 2004, 06:19
Yeah what is this? Catching a foot?
:confused:

Steve Delaney
13th April 2004, 06:53
Originally posted by xensu
Saitama Steve -

An art called Aizu O Dome the art choose not to be listed as a ryuha.

I have never heard of this art before Xenso, could you fill us in about it please? It's history, etc.

Mekugi
13th April 2004, 08:10
Originally posted by Saitama Steve
I have never heard of this art before Xenso, could you fill us in about it please? It's history, etc.

Aizu as in the area of Fukushima Prefecture; also as in Daito Ryu's "lost teachings" or whatever. Supposidly this is not oshikiuchi.

Let's keep this thread from eroding, shall we!

Jason W
13th April 2004, 16:00
I'm not sure if it was the right place to do it, but I asked that question here

Baffling Budo (http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=99)

sorry if it was presumptuous about the art...it just seemed the place where all those sorts of questions are asked.

cheers,

Jason Wotherspoon

Steve Delaney
15th April 2004, 00:26
Alright, let's not go there shall we?