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nizamuddin
9th April 2004, 21:48
Dear e-budo members,

I have a question on a passage in the Book of Five Rings which reads in the translation of William Scott Wilson as follws:

"Recently, priests of the Kashima and Kantori shrines in the province of Hitachi have established various styles, declaring them to have been transmitted by the gods, and have travelled from province to province teaching them to others."

What is meant by this passage? It would seem that Miyamoto Musashi was criticising the Katori Shinto Ryu and and the Kashima Shinto Ryu. But why? What was it that he was specifically criticising?

Ellis Amdur glosses this passage in the essay "Tenshin Katori Shinto Ryu" in his Old School, p. 21, thus

"It is hard to tell, however, the real implications of this statement. Miyamoto Musashi's book was intended to serve several purposes, one of which was to advertise himself, and he took pains to criticize all rival methods, particularly any systemization of technique."

Is it true that no one we cannot come to some conclusion as to what he meant? Was he merely engaging in an act of self promotion here?

I would like to state that I am merely posing a question here and have no intention of igniting controversy among folowers of various ryu.

Thanks in adavance to all who may care to answer.

S. N. Ahmad

Jason W
10th April 2004, 12:55
one of which was to advertise himself, and he took pains to criticize all rival methods, particularly any systemization of technique."

>Was he merely engaging in an act of self promotion here?

I disagree with this. Musashi wrote this book at the end of his life, after claiming to have achieved some form of enlightenment.

The notion of Musashi writing with the intention as suggested by Mr Amdur is inconsistent with the tone of the introduction Musashi wrote in his book.

Personally, I do not get any sense of criticism on Musashi's part in reading the quoted paragraph.

cheers,

Jason Wotherspoon

sven beulke
10th April 2004, 13:44
Hello,
is the gorin no sho the densho of the niten ichi ryu? If it is the densho i also would disagree with the advertising theory. Why advertising in a text that is secret and only for members of the ryu. If its not the densho it would be intresting how the text spread over japan. How many old copys are still existing? Only one or two? Was the text ever published in a wider scale before Meji-period? Lot of questions. Any got answers?
Regards

nizamuddin
10th April 2004, 18:27
Hello, Sven.

Thank you for calling attention to this dimension of the original question. I certainly do not have an answer. Hopefully, more knowledgable members will be able to shed light on this issue.

I do agree with Jason that the passage as it reads does not really seem critical. Yet, if one reads the sentence immediatley preceding it one cannot help but get the impression that Musashi did intend to criticise. I shall quote the whole passage, again from the Willaim Scott Wilson translation:

"In China and even in our own country, those who have put this Way into practice have traditionally been spoken of as masters of the martial arts. As a warrior, one should necessarily study this practice. These days, the men making their way through the world CALLING THEMSELVES MARTIAL ARTISTS [emphasis added] are generally only teachers of sword techniques."

These remarks are then immediatley followed by Musashi's statement on the priests of the Katori and Kashima Shrines that we quoted in our original post. Now, in English these remarks, at least to this reader, do sound somewhat pejorative. However, Thomas Cleary's translation (the only other translation to which I have access) is a bit milder but I do not wish to burden the forum members with another lengthy quote for, in the final analysis, one must refer to the original Japanese and, alas, in this matter I have no expertise. Perhaps, members conversant with Classical Japanese can shed some light here?

At any rate, I have come across remarks critical of Miyamoto Musashi made by Otake Risuke, the Shihan of Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu in Ellis Amdur's essay on TSKSR in his book "Old School", pp. 38-39 and Howard Reid and Michael Croucher, "The FIghting Arts", p. 147. The substance of Shihan Otake Risuke's remarks is that even though there is no doubt that Musashi was a formidable martial artist, even to the point that he is widely regarded as a kensei (sword saint), he essentially abandoned human society to pursue self-perfection, never married, had no descendants at all, and had only three disciples who studied his art. Shihan Otake also observed that "[Musashi] followed a method of training involving a degree of austerity which was unusual, and something the average person could never hope to achieve." (Reid & Croucher, p. 147). He goes on to state that Musashi never slept on padded mats, never took a bath, and never combed his hair. He concludes his assesment of Musashi saying, "...I cannot help but wonder whether he sacrificed his humanity for the sake of his success in swordsamnship." (Reid & Croucher, p. 147). Shihan Otake then contrasts the life of Musashi with that of the founder of TSKSR, Iizasa Choisai Ienao Sensei who marreid, sired children whose descendants continue to flourish to this day 20 generations later, and lived in relative peace and calm to the ripe old age of 102 in an age mired war and strife, and whose most enduring legacy, no doubt, is the ryu itself with its myriads of martial techniques.

I do not know if the characterisation of Musashi's life and personal habits is entirely accurate but I do find the remarks interesting and I wonder if they have anything to do with Musahsi's remarks in the Gorin no Sho. Perhaps this is a very old rivalry? Beyond this I really have nothing to add and I hope that others will share their insights and comments.

S. N. Ahmad

hyaku
11th April 2004, 00:26
I have reliable information which points to the fact that Musashi did not like soap that smelled of cherry blossom. He also never mixed wasabi with his shoyu when he ate somen (noodles) and was said not to like tall women as had a complex about them.

Recently they unearthed the back of the cave up at reigando and found milions of yen hidden away. Seems he had made millions from selling copies of his densho all over the country as an aid to Japanese businessmen.

Ben Bartlett
11th April 2004, 00:36
Originally posted by hyaku

Recently they unearthed the back of the cave up at reigando and found milions of yen hidden away. Seems he had made millions from selling copies of his densho all over the country as an aid to Japanese businessmen.
That wins for funniest thing I've read today. :laugh:

fifthchamber
11th April 2004, 10:10
Hi all...
As a midget myself I must agree with Musashi's viewpoints on tall women....God they are scary!.....;)
But!!! Hyakutake-san must have made a mistake here! Musashi was meant to be 6 foot plus! It's going to be real hard to even develop a complex at that height!...Now....If he was a tiny lad like me........
As for the question....I should think it safe to say that no one knows for sure....And that we all have opinions that are formed in some part by the training we take....And the methods we use....Even someone as eminent as Otake Risuke....I have always found Ito Kagehisa to be a bit of a slacker...Uchi Otoshi is far too easy....And I think he was taking the mick out of us all..:rolleyes: .....Hehe....JOKE!!!
Thanks for the humour! Much needed on a dry sunday!
Regards..
(Oh!...Hyakutake-san! I may be out your way in July...I managed to get the JET posting I wanted...Don't know where yet though...Kyoto, Tokyo, or Oita....I personally would love Kyoto but Kyushu weather seems attractive too...I will let you know what happens...:) )

sven beulke
11th April 2004, 16:55
Definetly is the picture most of us have of Musashi different from the historical Musashi. I found this passage in Turnbulls "The lone samurai and the martial arts"(p.69) about his duel with Sasaki Ganryu in 1612:
" It is intresting to note that recent research has questioned Musashi´s role in the duel with Ganryu. An article of November 1988 in the Asahi Shimbun quotes from a recently discovered manuscript which claims that Musashi was not alone when he challenged Ganryu, but was accompanied by several followes, and when Musashi knocked ganryu to the ground he was only stunned. Others then pounced upon him and killed him . This is very similar to the plot conceived against Musashi by the Yoshioka family, and calls into question the traditional image of Musashi as the supreme lone worrior."
Dont fit in the typical picture of Musashi.Most storys about Musashi a based on legend or could not be confirmed like his friendship with Takuan Soho. But its god to know that the Gorin no Sho is a Densho.