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Rennis
6th June 2000, 13:11
I recently ran across this in John Rogers' translation of "Honcho Bugei Shoden" (written in 1714) in Monumenta Nipponica (46:2) and thought it may be interesting given the recent conversations about long tsuka.

" Hayashizaki Jinsuke Shigenobu

Hayashizaki Jinsuke Shigenobu was from Michinoku. He prayed to the deity Myojin of Hayashizaki and was enlightened regarding the intricacies of swordsmanship. He is the swordsman who was responsible for the rebirth of iai.

In "Hojo Godaiki" it is written 'The use of swords with unusually long hilts began when the deity Myojin appeared to Hayashizaki Kansuke Katsuyoshi in the form of an old man and taught him the value of using a long grip'

I believe that the name Katsuyoshi is a copyist's error. In the "Hojo Godaiki", the name is Katsuyoshi and in the writings handed down in the school, it appears as Shigenobu"

(cuts to the next page)

"In the "Hojo Sounki" it is written:

It was Katsuyoshi who began to wear swords with a long hilt and Tamiya Heibei Narimasa who taught him this. Narimasa wore swords with long hilts and went throughout the provices training in swordsmanship. He often said that a difference of eight sun in the length of the hilt creates a three fold advantage when swords are crossed. Ever since he taught this profound and secret principle to others, all have come to wear swords with longer hilts. ".

(cut and end quote)

My question is do any of the arts said to have evolved off of Hayashizaki's teachings still use long tsuka? I know the guys based down near the Hayashizaki Jinja use long swords, but I was under the impression it was the whole sword and not just the tsuka that was long. I don't recall Tamiya ryu using particularlly long tsuka either, but I may be mistaken there. Oh yeah, and what is this "rebirth" of iai? Was it popular before and had almost died out?

Rennis Buchner

[This message has been edited by Rennis (edited 06-06-2000).]

Brently Keen
7th June 2000, 02:04
Very interesting. It seems to me, that many if not most of the popular schools claiming descent from Hayashizaki today use the standard (shorter) tsukas. According to the above, it was Tamiya who widely popularized the use of longer tsukas. My question is this:

Tamiya-ryu is a fairly well known iai style the current headmaster being Seirin Tsumaki (I believe). But there is also another Tamiya-ryu, that headed by Tetsuzan Kuroda, who also inherited several other traditions from his grandfather including Komagawa Kaishin-ryu kenjutsu and Shishin Takuma-ryu jujutsu among others. I am wondering are these two schools related? And if so, when and where did the two branches diverge? Do they share similar or common techniques? I have not seen Tsumaki sensei's art, but I have seen Kuroda sensei's iaijutsu (and it's very interesting I might add). Or are these two completely different schools with the same name?

Kuroda sensei is regularly featured in Japanese koryu magazines, but my kanji reading and Japanes skills are still too limited to read them. Perhaps someone else has read (or heard) more than I know about these two? Or maybe someone knows if either of these two headmasters have ever mentioned anything about longer tsukas with regards to the traditions they teach, or their own opinions?

Brently

Joanne Miller
9th June 2000, 16:34
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rennis:
I don't recall Tamiya ryu using particularlly long tsuka either, but I may be mistaken there<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I heard that the Tamiya Ryu that is practiced today is known as Kishu Tamiya Ryu which came about after the 5th generation of the founding Tamiya Ryu.

Maybe the founding Tamiya Ryu (1st Generation to 5th Generation & before it became Kishu Tamiya Ryu) used long tsuka ?

Personally, I don't remember seeing Tamiya Ryu practioners today using sword of long tsuka as well but I could be wrong.

Hopefully some Tamiya Ryu practioners out there in E-budo can tell us more?

Joanne Miller


[This message has been edited by Joanne Miller (edited 06-09-2000).]

Rennis
13th June 2000, 13:56
I looked up the Tamiya ryu entries in "Iaido Hikkei" as was I flipping through it here in the lab earlier and in here we have listed Tamiya ryu and Shin Tamiya ryu Battojutsu. I briefly looked through the entries and saw no comments regarding long tsuka, nor do the pictures show anything out of the ordinary tsuka-wise. I suspect that if Tamiya ryu did in fact use long tsuka, they may have discontinued the practice at some point, quite possibly when the Shogunate was busy telling everyone what size swords to use, but that is pure speculation on my part.

Regarding Kuroda Tetsuzan, all of my budo books are back in my room, but I seem to recall Kuroda sensei's ryu uses different kanji. I'm not sure if there is a connection or not, but I don't recall ever hearing of one before. I tried looking up some info on his various ryuha before and didn't come up with too much ( basically a reference to his grandfather), but I didn't try very hard then either, so that doesn't mean anything. I've seen several of his videos and I don't recall unusually long tsuka there either (although it has been a couple years since I saw them), nor do I recall the techniques looking like Tsumaki sensei's Tamiya ryu. However, again it has been a couple years and Kuroda sensei does have a very unique style of movement.

Anyone have any ideas about this "rebirth of iai" thing? I've run across this claim in Japanese sources before (usually, although not always, about Hayashizaki) and wondered where it comes from and what they mean by it, since the common view floating around seems to be that iai wasn't really much of a big deal before the Edo period.

Rennis Buchner

Undmark, Ulf
13th June 2000, 15:34
Without really having any research to rely on for my ideas, I'd guess that the idea of the quick-draw was not very new in the 17:th century. Rather, it was probably not until the Edo-jidai that anyone (Hayashizaki or his students?) had any interest in organizing such solo-kata training in a separate ryu-ha. Doesn't several ryuha claim to have developed quick-draw techniques (under different terms) much earlier than Hayashizaki (admitedly without much documentation on the whole matter)?
Hayashizaki may well have been the first swordsman to focus on and refining such techniques to a degree worth calling a rebirth?
This, however, is pure speculation.

Regards,
Ulf Undmark

floodpj
26th June 2000, 12:47
There is a school of Koryu Japanese Swordsmanship that still uses long tsuka and is directly related to the teachings of Hayashizaki Jinsuke Minamoto no Shigenobu.

Several styles of swordsmanship claim descent from Hayashizaki Jinsuke of which the main line is the Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu. There are two main M.J.E.R. lineages remaining today.

The Tanimura Ha lineage as directed by the current 21st Soke, Sekugichi Komei (Takaaki) continues to use long tsuka, as well as long blades (over san shaku is common).
Essentially a long tsuka goes hand in hand with a long blade.
Sekiguchi Sensei's school, also referred to as Komei Juku, is based in Tokyo, with branch schools in Australia, Europe, Hawaii, Korea and I believe the Mainland USA.

If anyone is interested in more info and a jpeg or two of Sensei's latest shinken, please email me.

Regards

Earl Hartman
26th June 2000, 18:03
Dear Peter:

I am interested in learning more about the Komei Juku. If you have perused the threads on MJER, you will notice that there is a lot of discussion of MJER transmission (most of it initiated by me, actually), and I would like to hear your understanding of the story, if you would be willing to share it.

I pracitced MJER in Japan many years ago under the tutelage of Masaoka Kazumi Sensei, a direct student of Oe Masamichi Sensei. Having met some MJER praticioners that did things very differently from how I was taught, I looked into the situation and found the following (greatly condensed):

Oe Masamichi Sensei transmitted the Kongen no Maki (the MJER version of menkyo kaiden) to several men, one of whom was my teacher. The other two that I know of are Hokiyama Namio Sensei and Mori Shigeki Sensei (there were a couple of others, I think, but I do not know their names). So far as I know, they were all in the Tanimura-ha lineage, (although Oe Sensei was also, at one point, the inheritor of the Shimomura-ha as well) and it seems to be generally accepted (de facto if not de jure) that the Shimomura-ha was continued by Nakayama Hakudo Sensei, although he renamed it Muso Shinden Ryu.

Over the years, the line of MJER continued by Hokiyama Sensei came to be associated with the Zen Nihon Iaido Renmei (ZNIR), and the line of MJER continued by Masaoka Sensei came to be associated with the Zen Nihon Kendo Renmei (ZNKR). So far as I know, both schools use fairly standard swords. I have been told that Oe Sensei, who radically reorganized the MJER curriculum, was an uncommonly large man for his time, yet he preferred swords of a standard length.

Masaoka Sensei passed on the Kongen no Maki to two men, one of whom, Noda Toru Sensei (his senior deshi), still lives in Kochi City in Shikoku and still practices iai there. It is Noda Sensei's opinion that all of the men who received the Kongen no Maki from Oe Sensei must be considered the legitimate 18th generation of the school, since MJER did not traditionally have a single lineal successor. The Kongen no Maki is the highest level of certification in MJER and there is, therefore, nothing to differentiate the holders of the Kongen no Maki from one another, so far as "legitimacy" is concerned.

Anyway, would you be willing to share the lineage of your school with us? I would be most interested to hear it.

Yours,
Earl Hartman

Jack B
26th June 2000, 20:39
Originally posted by floodpj
Several styles of swordsmanship claim descent from Hayashizaki Jinsuke of which the main line is the Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu. There are two main M.J.E.R. lineages remaining today.

I know of about 8 MJER lineages currently extant (plus about 3 or 4 MSR), but I have little information about relative "mainness".

Rennis
27th June 2000, 13:05
I'm aware of Sekiguchi sensei and his use of a monster of a sword, but his useage doesn't reflect the useage of the average MJER practitioner here in Japan. Also, as Earl and Jack B. points out, there are alot more than just two lines of MJER around and just about all of them claim to be the "main" one. Heck I know of a dojo with three different lines represented all at the same time. Anyways now that you mention it, does anyone know if Sekiguchi sensei's students use huge swords too or is it just a personal thing with him? In regards to the thread in general, I guess what I am looking for is if there are still schools tied to Hayashizaki in which the use of large tsuka and/or swords in general is a normal part of the teachings and not just a personal preference. One example would be Shinmuso Hayashizaki ryu. Anyone know of any others off hand?
Rennis Buchner

[Edited by Rennis on 06-27-2000 at 07:08 AM]

Earl Hartman
27th June 2000, 18:03
Rennis:

In Masaoka Sensei's book, there is a reference to the fact that swordsmen from Tosa were instantly recognizable outside their fief due to the inordinately long tsuka that they preferred. A guy would see it and upon introducing himself would say "You're from Tosa, right?" I will continue to look through his book to see if there are any references as to why this was changed; but it would make sense, as has been speculated, that the tsuka were shortened in response to a bakufu edict regulating the configuration of swords.

Aside from the seemingly generally held opinion that a long tsuka goes only with a long blade, a more interesting question (for me, anyway) would be whether the reference to long tsuka is a reference to the ratio of tsuka to blade length or the overall length of the sword. The passage in Masaoka Sensei's book seems to indicate that the distinguishing feature of the Tosa-style swords was the length of the tsuka, not necessarily the length of the blade. In much the same way that a heavy pommel allows a rapier to be manipulated more easily by shifting the center of gravity closer to the sword hand, a longer tsuka allows the weapon to be manipulated much more easily, and in a very different way, as anyone who has handled a modern kendo shinai will know. This will influence the kinds of techniques that are available to the swordsman.

Anyway, I will keep looking.

Earl

Erik Tracy
27th June 2000, 21:13
Earl,
Glad to see this discussion "resurface" after the crash.

I'm *still* waiting for all the loose ends to be neatly gathered up for a concise summation....(hint hint).


I read your response in the previous thread on MJER Lineage and here as well:
"Masaoka Sensei passed on the Kongen no Maki to two men, one of whom, Noda Toru Sensei (his senior deshi), still lives in Kochi City in Shikoku and still practices iai there. It is Noda Sensei's opinion that all of the men who received the Kongen no Maki from Oe Sensei must be considered the legitimate 18th generation of the school, since MJER did not traditionally have a single lineal successor. The Kongen no Maki is the highest level of certification in MJER and there is, therefore, nothing to differentiate the holders of the Kongen no Maki from one another, so far as "legitimacy" is concerned."

First off it made perfect sense, then the more I thought about, the more I scratched my head - undoubtedly due to my slow wits and recent sleep deprivation.

If what you were told is true, why wouldn't we have an even more difficult time tracing the MJER lineage back to Hayashizaki? I know that the line went thru some branching, but it only seems recent (to me, at least) that there is....ah...confusion on the multiplicity of successors.

With the explanation you received, it would seem to suggest a hopeless task for following the line of "grandmasters" as each current generation of swordsmnn would produce several equally certified "top guns" - each with claims to be source of teaching for the next generation...and so on and so on....

Yet, aside from a handful of minor variations, there seems to be a followable line. Or is there?

Comments?

Erik Tracy
MJER
Jikishin-Kai

Earl Hartman
27th June 2000, 21:33
Erik:

My guess is that some of the lines simply died off and what we have today is what made it through the test of time. The Kongen no Maki could have been transmitted to many other people over the years, but it seems perfectly possible to me that some of the recipients may have died without passing it on, or that there were other factors which prevented other holders of the Kongen no Maki from passing on their art. An analogy might be that in the old days people had many more children than they do today simply because they knew some of them would never live to maturity to have children of their own.

In any case, part of the question here might be whether or not a holder of the Kongen no Maki needs external validation from either the ZNKR, the ZNIR, or any of the kobudo umbrella organizations to be considered "legitimate". There is an old joke that says "a language is a dialect with an army and navy". The same sort of thing may apply here. Certain teachers have achieved prominence through the establishment of, or their association with, various organizations. This may make them prominent, although I am not sure that this, strictly speaking, has anything whatsoever to do with "legitimacy". In any case, like I said, I don't think that this can ever possibly be "settled". If what Noda Sensei said is true, then the many lines of MJER which can trace their lineage to a recipient of the Kongen no Maki can legitimately claim to be legitimate, so to speak. I think it is best to leave it at that.

Earl

floodpj
1st July 2000, 01:25
Rennis

To the best of my knowledge, not all of Sekiguchi Sensei's students use long shinken, but many of his direct students do, including myself.

And yes, you are right. Sekiguchi Sensei does interpret certain aspects of Eishin Ryu differently to other schools in Japan, particularly those who are affiliated with the ZNKR.
I understand Sensei's use of a long sword is a personal choice yet the style he teaches is basically the same as what he was taught. Minor variations within a style from one generation to another are abound.
'Who knows' if his successor will continue with the trait of using a long sword.
Change is part of the evolution of Bujutsu.

Earl, I haven't forgotten about you. I have a document (in Japanese) given to me which supposedly outlines the origin of our schools lineage. As soon as I get it translated I will make the details available.
Perhaps the MJER thread is the best place to discuss this further.

Regards to all.