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Green_Dreads
11th April 2004, 00:52
While this relates to modern Japanese culture rather than ancient, this may or may not seem appropriate but I'll post it here for those interested or to be rejected. ^_^

In any schoolyard you to go in the Western world, the kids know the names of Goku, Gohan and Vegita - fictional anime characters with supernatural martial art abilities made up by Japanese writers and popularized around the globe.

The influence of anime and Manga (for the uninitiated, anime meaning animation, Manga referring to a Japanese graphic novel somewhat different from a typical comic) exists in the East and West alike. Not to mention the fact that video games, the favourite pastime of every teenager is an industry tightly controlled by the Japanese and introduces Japanese themes such as games with the typical budoka with supernatural abilities to raging oni hoards that can only be defeated with holy weapons.

Anime and Manga reeks of Japanese culture. Tenchi Muyo!, for example, is set with a shrine attendant, Masaki Tenchi, and his grandfather Masaki Yoshou, defending the shrine that keeps a beautiful evil Goddess named Ryoko - which I think means Demon Summoner or something - in, until she breaks out at the start of the series.

There are multiple other examples of Japanese culture brought through in anime, such as Love Hina, set in a hotspring based dormetry.

Perhaps the most obvious example of anime bringing Japanese culture to Westerners is in its attempt to bring Japan's beloved 'kawaii' fetish to a Western audience. Kawaii meaning cute, of course. The characters, including hulking samurai, all have super-deformed faces with impossibly big eyes and a range of eye and hair colour to make any white person jump (blue and purple are favourites).

Its not budo that inspired me and two friends to plan a trip out to Japan early next year - it was our inner anime 'otaku' (obsessive) that wanted to collect as much un-subtitled, not-avialible-in-the-West anime and Manga as possible.

I would be interested to hear feedback from *anyone* living in Japan on this, or anyone in general who knows about Japanese culture and has anything to add.

Ja ne!

Chrono
11th April 2004, 01:14
I was into anime probably before I was serious in martial arts. Dragon Ball Z was my first, actually. Although, I'm not into it as much as I used to I'll watch it ocassionaly. But, I tell you, Rurouni Kenshin did get me interested in swordsmanship.

Jon

Ben Bartlett
11th April 2004, 03:20
Originally posted by Green_Dreads

Its not budo that inspired me and two friends to plan a trip out to Japan early next year - it was our inner anime 'otaku' (obsessive) that wanted to collect as much un-subtitled, not-avialible-in-the-West anime and Manga as possible.

I would be interested to hear feedback from *anyone* living in Japan on this, or anyone in general who knows about Japanese culture and has anything to add.

Ja ne!
Well, the one thing I will warn you is, there is a lot of anime and manga (particularly the latter) in Japan, and a lot of it is bad. The stuff that people actually bother to translate and bring over here is usually the better stuff. Not to say that there isn't any great untranslated stuff out there (there is!), but just be warned that there is a lot out there, and it'll take some work on your part to sort the wheat from the chaff. ;)

As for manga/anime/video games, what I find interesting about it, mostly, is that these are Western mediums, which were transported to Japan, and are now being re-exported to the West. Go figure. But I do enjoy it, I'll admit that. ;) It does include a lot of Japanese cultural references, that's for certain. In fact, Rumiko Takahashi (in an interview I read) was genuinely surprised that Westerners would enjoy reading her manga, since so much of it was based in Japanese culture. The irony, of course, being that the Japanese have adopted all kinds of things from American culture, and yet they still seem somewhat surprised that we'd do the same.

nicojo
11th April 2004, 07:11
As for manga/anime/video games, what I find interesting about it, mostly, is that these are Western mediums, which were transported to Japan, and are now being re-exported to the West. What do you base this on? How far back are you looking?

Two-dimensional art and text forms are cross-cultural and cannot be limited to only the west, but if you are talking about dc and disney, then I see your point.

I may disagree though ;)

Green dreads, there are plenty of people on e-budo who like manga/anime/video games too. Hopefully they will see this thread. Do some searching in the member's lounge and sword arts and you will see some names.

Ben Bartlett
11th April 2004, 20:59
Originally posted by nicojo
What do you base this on? How far back are you looking?

Two-dimensional art and text forms are cross-cultural and cannot be limited to only the west, but if you are talking about dc and disney, then I see your point.

I may disagree though ;)

Green dreads, there are plenty of people on e-budo who like manga/anime/video games too. Hopefully they will see this thread. Do some searching in the member's lounge and sword arts and you will see some names.
I just meant that comics, animation, and video games were all present in the West first, and then went to Japan. It's true that Japan had two-dimensional art forms before manga, but manga is much more similar to Western comics than it is to, say, woodblock prints or Japanese paintings.

It's much like Kurosawa's Seven Samurai being inspired by American Westerns, and then many American Westerns being inspired by Kurosawa's work. Just commenting that there is a flow back and forth between the two cultures, which I think has been beneficial for both.

nicojo
11th April 2004, 23:06
It's much like Kurosawa's Seven Samurai being inspired by American Westerns, and then many American Westerns being inspired by Kurosawa's work. Just commenting that there is a flow back and forth between the two cultures, which I think has been beneficial for both. Yes it's a good analogy and with Kurosawa's shakespearean stuff too.

Besides the two-dimensionality of the art forms, I think
ukiyo-e/woodblock prints can be likened to manga in another sense: the type of audience they reach. Not saying that we are low-class for liking it, but that they do occupy a more "popular" place. Like noh vs. kabuki.

www.ninthart.com is a good online comics journal, though I haven't seen anything recently about manga.

p.s. didn't mean to sound so interrogative, I was just wondering what you may have come across. I am looking into this stuff...

FujitaMakoto
11th April 2004, 23:49
Anime&Manga&Video Games are merely a continuation of story telling. Last I checked no one complained about "stories". Back when the samurai were around you had your puppet plays, kabuki and roaming theatre groups and the story teller on the corner.

Anime&Manga&Video Games when expressed by good authors can use sci-fi fantasy worlds to convey of all things ethics and morality while entertaining. These mediums can also get people interested in history...I would like to see some authors use "free talk" as Nobuhiro Watsuki did in Rurouni Kenshin to discuss character development and whether or not certain characters were real people.

Yes 99.9% of anime&manga&video games are considered by many to be worthless...however the true gems stand right up there with literary and artistic masterpieces. So really from an educational standpoint...people can actually "learn" new things without knowing it...teachers in classrooms have to understand what is "entertaining" their students and learn to adapt these mediums. It is possible to tell a historically accurate story in form of a graphic novel...

Best example is the Shinsengumi. Yes they are "victims" of fictionalization...but in many ways they were victims of the politics of the time as well. Without their "folk" makeovers they, as well as other groups during the revolution (e.g. Sekihoutai) would've been lost altogether.

It would be wonderful if more manga, or comics from around the world, would be translated into English...this can foster a "global view" and tolerance for other cultures and points of view.

nicojo
12th April 2004, 01:49
Hello Fujita,

I agree with everything you say. I was only observing a difference between comics/manga/anime/video games and other art forms, a difference that is parallel with the difference between noh and kabuki. All can tell good stories. But the difference is that comics, kabuki and woodblock prints were art produced for mass consumption (as much as kabuki could), for "commoners" (as much as that distinction holds up today) and so on. This does not mean that we can't see beautiful things in these art forms, but that there were different intentions behind the production of each of these. That's why there are "true gems" in this, but it may be lost among all of the rest.

There are several graphic novels I would teach in certain classes, such as Joe Sacco's "Palestine" or "Sarajevo" in a non-fiction/journalism or history classes about those places. Also "Cages" by Dave Mckean or "Jimmy Corrigan" by Chris Ware for any literature 20th century class. "Maus" and "Stories of God" are of course classics too. And many many more.

But I don't know as much about manga so I would love your suggestions. My favorites are Ghost in the Shell, Akira, Dombu, Lone Wolf, Blade of the Immortal, and Battle Angel Alita. (Those are all American names at least). The reasons why I love these are because, as you say, they "use sci-fi fantasy worlds to convey of all things ethics and morality while entertaining." The art is very sophisticated, just like the american/british ones I listed. I could be very academic about this, but I will save that for some papers I am working on...And now I will have to look at saito hajime and Rurouni Kenshin because you and others like it so much. If you want to give me some suggestions of what other anime/manga you like, tell me why you like them? And anybody else...

nicojo
12th April 2004, 01:54
Well since coming to e-budo I have always thought there should be a "contemporary Japan" forum for people like us who are interested in these things. Some people may think these are just kids stuff, but I would challenge them to play some Koei games and see what they think after unifying japan. I always thought it would be great to teach a JPN history 101 class by having students play as Tokugawa, Nobunaga and what not...I checked out every library book I could on Japanese history and culture when I was in middle school after playing some of those.

Anyhow...Green Dreads you are right about the japanese cultural things, but what do you make of that observation: "Anime and Manga reeks of Japanese culture." I would say that many Japanese are still proud of their history and find it so interesting to recode it for each generation. One could ask why Americans don't have more civil war games, though BF 1942 is quite popular...both in Japan and the West.

One of my friends from grad school works at EGM so we talk about this stuff from time to time...No I can't get you a job there!

Green_Dreads
14th April 2004, 00:18
Some random notes to throw into the conversation:

When I said it reeks of Japanese culture, I meant that in a positive way it gives the impressive of Japanese culture - I could have (and probably should have) said 'It's terribly Japanese'. It has everything - historical characters such as Takada and Nobunaga fictionalized for the common audience, settings such as hot springs and Shinto jinja, constant references to ki... I could go on. Ultimately I meant it in a positive way.

Someone asked for a list of the more inspiring anime:

Shin Seiki Evangelion/aka Neon Genesis Evangelion: The predicted Last Day spoken of in the Revelations comes, and humanity battles God's angels of judgement with 14-year-old school children powering huge mecha's in order to save the planet.

It contains a gaint metaphor for Japan before-and-afer WWII.

Makes huge statements about the role of religions, cloning, and humanities lack of care and consideration for one another. A very dark story, but a personal favorite.

Gasaraki: Japanese history and Shinto mythology merged with sci-fi and references to history. It may sound a little OTT but its executed in such a way it doesn't feel strange at all. It contains my favorite katana reference in any anime: 'In this blade I hold the evolution of the Japanese ppl'. Really makes u think about just how much a katana means.

Tenchi Muyo: Another personal favorite of mine - if u like Shinto and sci-fi you'll love this. I talked about it in the first post so I won't add to that here.

Martion Successor Nadesico: No idea of its Japanese name, but I found this to be inspiring. A mixture of super-cute comedy in the typical Japanese style and war ethics. Very much a mecha-sci fi, very entertaining and easily watched.

Gundam: Described as the 'Japanese Star Trec'. Since the web is filled with information on these series, I'll just direct u to Gundam Wing.

nicojo
14th April 2004, 03:25
When I said it reeks of Japanese culture, I meant that in a positive way it gives the impressive of Japanese culture - I could have (and probably should have) said 'It's terribly Japanese'. It has everything - historical characters such as Takada and Nobunaga fictionalized for the common audience, settings such as hot springs and Shinto jinja, constant references to ki... I could go on. Ultimately I meant it in a positive way.
Yes, I thought you did, it wasn't my intention to sound antagonistic or offended. When in doubt, never think I'm antagonistic. I was interested in your idea, and you brought up some good points.

You should go on with what you see as the important things that the creators of manga/anime use. Always interesting to see what people find. When I can read/watch what you suggest I will look for it too.(I don't think I know what jinja is...)I'll give you some examples I've found.

Lone wolf and cub is soo famous, but it has been said elsewhere on e-budo that the creators actually were familiar with kendo and kenjutsu, having studied it. I need to find a way to verify this, I find it very interesting. Of course they refer to schools and historical characters such as Yagyu and suiojutsu. But it seems to me that they weren't just using these names because readers would be familiar with them, but that they had actual knowledge of how people fought (however exaggerated the actual combat may be) and stances and so on. There is the tale of the father who takes care of the alarm bells, who sends his sons to fight Itto Ogami to see who is worthy to take his place. Historical notes follow the story, as with many others. Compare that with Blade of the Immortal, with all the warring ryu. And all the historical video games, romance of three kingdoms, nobunaga's ambition, bushido blade...Edutainment, but I like it.

Yes, metaphysics is there too. Remember all the Final Fantasy games? Perfect stuff. And Ghost in the Shell 2, which one e-budo guy described as
...pretty much psychobable deconstructionist buddism mixed with the aforementioned panty-shots, computer "wizardry" and not much else. :D Still it is interesting, and a lot of mainstream american comics don't bother with the metaphysical at all. I have no conclusions about this, it interests me though. Is this "Japanese"? Influenced by taoism? Or by shinto? Am I talking out of my !!!? Who can tell?

Hooray for Hiyao Miyazaki. Princess Mononoke, Nausicca, Spirited Away have this wild sense of nature that I love, but cannot intellectualize much yet. That's just as well I suppose. There are others but I can't think of them now.

I will say that since Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the post-apocalyptic thing is purely Japanese. Akira, Jin-Roh Wolf Brigade, and Barefoot Gen do things that other media could not, I think. I need to get a hold of those mecha you mentioned.

Some of this is a tautology: It is made in Japan, so of course it contains Japanese elements. But what is very fascinating is what elements are chosen and how those are developed, modified, disseminated and spread by the various forms of entertainment. Keep posting your thoughts of which ones interest you and where you find them. I have no one to discuss this with anyways.

I think it's great you are going to Japan and when I am there this summer I plan to pick a few things up myself. Though I am not sure if anyone at the dojo will be able to refer me to anything.



Edited by George Kohler as request by nicojo.

Joseph Svinth
14th April 2004, 06:23
For those of you who wondering how to major in anime in college, try http://www.lib.duke.edu/ias/eac/popculture/anime.htm ; Duke has one of the largest collections of anime in one place in the world.

As for the metaphysics, see

http://academia.issendai.com/fox-japanese.shtml
http://web.clas.ufl.edu/users/wehmeyer/folk98s.htm

If you're trying to do this at home, Tom Green's first encyclopedia, "Folklore," is a lot drier reading than his second encyclopedia ("Martial Arts of the World"), but it is probably in your local university library, and will certainly point you in the general direction.

Joseph Svinth
14th April 2004, 06:33
Oh -- on the post-apocalyptic stuff, you clearly were not reading the comix of the 1970s. The keyword search is "comix," spelled with an x. See, for example, http://www.vividvision.com/comixindex.html, http://tv.cream.org/specialassignments/topshelf/arjcom.htm , and http://www.geocities.com/utherworld/seasons/horrorcomix.html . Wimmin's comix are a bit later -- early 80s, maybe?

And, so you can't say comics aren't educational, how about W.E. Fairbairn in the comics?

http://ejmas.com/jnc/jncart_fairbairn_0802.htm

FujitaMakoto
14th April 2004, 07:29
Personally I feel that works such as
Princess Mononoke express the synthesis of Buddhism and Shintoism. But someone who is not of a Japanese or Asian background can still enjoy the work.

Similarly Millenium Actress, to me , is very Buddhist and at the same time expresses the history of Japan via the history of cinema. Also stars the Shinsengumi in a cameo role by the way.

Green_Dreads
15th April 2004, 04:12
I forget the name of the period, but I understand before the Edo period art became very important in the Japanese popular culture of the time, and the word 'Manga' that we use to describe the graphic novel of Japan today was used once to describe wooden block paintings, although I'm lacking information about this. All I heard was a hunch on a Japanese website.

I've also decided to duely note Ben Barlett's comment about the actual quality of the anime released inside Japan - with that amount I imagine a lot must be substandard. I suppose I should be glad, I can't take it all home. ^_^ Although I'm sure I can sort through the rarities and find something good enough to bring back as a trophy.

nicojo
15th April 2004, 05:23
More Japanese read manga than any other form of print, I've been told. I will find that for you if you want, though I wonder...more so than newspapers? Still it is impressive compared to U.S. amount of like 1% of the population. Even Europe and S. America read more comics than us. I think I read it in a Comics Journal article.

I do know there are so many different forms of manga that never reach us. Not just tentacle sex, but bike manga, high school manga, business manga?!?!?!

The period you are thinking of has a few names "Age of Unification/Azuchi-Momoyama/Namban epoch." According to my book of Japanese Culture and History. Before that was the Ashikaga. I will look to check that idea.

Joseph Svinth
15th April 2004, 06:53
QUOTE

In Permitted & Prohibited Desires, Allison notes that as of 1993, nearly 40 percent of all printed publications in Japan were manga, making it the "national language of mass culture."

CLOSE QUOTE

http://www.dukemagazine.duke.edu/alumni/dm7/discern_txt.html

Professor Allison specializes in manga, hence Duke's collection.

Green_Dreads
17th April 2004, 13:51
Am I the only one who thinks business Manga sounds really scary? Scary as in, ppl would actually buy comics about business.

Samurai Manga rarely reaches international shores, but then the Japanese probably don't consider it to be very foriegner-compatible.

FujitaMakoto
18th April 2004, 04:43
Originally posted by Green_Dreads
Am I the only one who thinks business Manga sounds really scary? Scary as in, ppl would actually buy comics about business.

Samurai Manga rarely reaches international shores, but then the Japanese probably don't consider it to be very foriegner-compatible.

I think a visual "crutch" makes everything easier to understand...kind of like the emoticons we use to clarify our emotions . I know that if some prof. would just pick up a piece of chalk and write/draw on the board my life would be much easier.

I'm not sure if the Japanese are the only ones determining that samurai manga wouldn't be foreigner compatible I think the marketing here in the US is filtering stuff and saying "no one is going to buy this". Besides the market here in the U.S. isn't THAT open minded compared to some European country, Canada and the rest of Asia which not only imports alot of Japanese media but also U.S. multimedia as well.

Folks say that consumers drive the market...that saying should be amended to: "Consumers drive the market based on what is available to begin with"

Devaldo
11th January 2007, 04:28
I was into anime probably before I was serious in martial arts. Dragon Ball Z was my first, actually. Although, I'm not into it as much as I used to I'll watch it ocassionaly. But, I tell you, Rurouni Kenshin did get me interested in swordsmanship.

Jon

I'm afraid to admit it but Kenshin also got me into swordmanship but that's not necessarily a bad thing i mean, now i'm on my way to become a great martial artist.

Devon Bodak

Hishaam Bendiar
13th January 2007, 17:15
I think a visual "crutch" makes everything easier to understand...kind of like the emoticons we use to clarify our emotions . I know that if some prof. would just pick up a piece of chalk and write/draw on the board my life would be much easier.

I'm not sure if the Japanese are the only ones determining that samurai manga wouldn't be foreigner compatible I think the marketing here in the US is filtering stuff and saying "no one is going to buy this". Besides the market here in the U.S. isn't THAT open minded compared to some European country, Canada and the rest of Asia which not only imports alot of Japanese media but also U.S. multimedia as well.

Folks say that consumers drive the market...that saying should be amended to: "Consumers drive the market based on what is available to begin with"

There are also some manga themes that get totally reworked so as not to "offend" religious beliefs which i noticed in US dubbing, not the case with French or Spanish ones, something else it took a long time for the western world to understand that animes are like movies as far as who should and shouldn't watch depending on maturity level, i mean look at works like Hokuto no Ken (Fist of th north star) and many others, the whole anime is censored when it comes to blood why because people in charge in the western world think that animes equal cartoons for kids.
My all time favourit manga is Lone wolf and cub, i'm into mangas which have a "realistic" style of drawing. Last but not least the manga is always better than the anime story wise IMHO.

PS:there has to be an inspiration to get into MA be it movies, cartoons, family etc... It doesn't matter as long as you're serious about you training and anyhow the eternel wanabes filter themselves out naturally when faced with the reality of training in a MA.

Tri-ring
19th February 2007, 06:26
I forget the name of the period, but I understand before the Edo period art became very important in the Japanese popular culture of the time, and the word 'Manga' that we use to describe the graphic novel of Japan today was used once to describe wooden block paintings, although I'm lacking information about this. All I heard was a hunch on a Japanese website.


European art of the 19th century was very much inspired by Ukiyoe or Mangae as some would call it. Most famous would be Vincent van Gogh. As you can see in the back of his self portrait you can find a pciture of a Ukiyoe.
Interesting part is that these Ukiyoes were not exported intentionally, they were used as buffers or fillings for exporting ceramic potteries and such.

The interesting part of manga story lines are that their are no complete good or evil just a shade of grey and the bounderies gets blurred as the audience becomes more mature.
Most of it comes from "Fujori" adopted from Buddhism theory of, one's life is not controlled by a benevolent soul.

K.Miwa

Josh Reyer
19th February 2007, 07:43
I'll probably get in a lot of trouble for saying this, but in my opinion, if they paid attention, a person could learn far, far more about Japanese culture from one year of anime-watching/manga-reading than they could from 20 years of doing budo.*

*Noting, that those who do budo for 20 years in Japan of course end up learning a lot more about Japanese culture than our hypothetical one-year anime watcher.

Hishaam Bendiar
19th February 2007, 17:46
[QUOTE=Josh Reyer]I'll probably get in a lot of trouble for saying this, but in my opinion, if they paid attention, a person could learn far, far more about Japanese culture from one year of anime-watching/manga-reading than they could from 20 years of doing budo.*
QUOTE]

If i'm not mistaken, what you meant to say is that you would know more about the "pop" part of the japanese culture by reading manga and watching animes and that in itself is more than what a budoka would know about by training for years without living in japan.