what is taijutsu ?

[Kamiyama]

The ‘taijutsu’ thing.

A lot has been written here on e-budo about ‘taijutsu’.
Some feel there is good and bad ‘taijutsu’.
Some say there is a right and wrong way to do ‘taijutsu’.

In ALL Japanese martial arts regardless of what they are or where they came from there is ‘taijutsu’.
This is a very common usage of a word, body skills in other words ‘taijutsu’.
Take a few seconds and help us all come together with a common meaning…
In your opinion what would you feel ‘taijutsu’ is ?
In your opinion what is good or bad ‘taijutsu’ ?

kamiyama, ralph severe

[Suiryu]

That is a great question! My guess is that this question will open up a can of worms.

As I am not Japanese, and when generally speaking of taijutsu I am refering to the technical side of movement during the deliverence of a physical technique in a conflict. But I am never ignorant to the fact that there is taijutsu in flower arranging.

Good or bad, is there such a thing! We all know stories of individuals that have created new methods and have been critised as "that is not right" attitude due to the common census of what right is.

If we were studying Gyokko Ryu and standing in Ichimonji no Kamae from Togakure Ryu is that right or wrong? My thought is not correct for Gyokko Ryu. As some waza may be harder to complete. (I think I may have read that somewhere else as well, sorry for the theft)

Maybe it gets back to in/yo or yin/yang.

Sorry for babling:rolleyes:

[George Kohler]

Suiryu,

Please sign your name on all your posts. It is E-budo policy.

[Suiryu]

Originally posted by George Kohler
Suiryu,

Please sign your name on all your posts. It is E-budo policy.

Sorry George, I thought having it in my profile was enough. My misunderstanding!

Cheers :beer:

Simon Calder

[George Kohler]

no problem.

[tenchijin2]

Taijutsu, as a term all by itself is too generic. EVERY physical activity involves 'taijutsu'. It means "body technique", and Hatsumi sensei has written that belly dancers and pizza throwers have taijutsu. So in this case, there is no 'good' or 'bad' taijutsu.

There must be a modifier, or posessive in front of it, like "budo" taijutsu, or "ninpo" taijutsu for us to be able to discuss whether it is *good* or *bad* taijutsu.

In martial arts, many systems refer to 'taijutsu', and we all know what they mean because of the context. We're talking about the skill of moving the body in a martial context, although different styles have different ideas about what is 'good' or 'bad'.

[BigJon]

So in this case, there is no 'good' or 'bad' taijutsu.

What if the pizza thrower, puts his fingers through the dough? Bad taijutsu...

What if the shopkeeper misses a large "dustbunny" while sweeping up, before opening his store? Bad taijutsu...

What if one is practicing randori, and gets hit in the face when he or she should have moved to avoid? Bad taijutsu....



Happy Easter or Pagan Fertility Time everybody!:)

[choombatta]

If what you're doing works, it's good taijutsu. If it doesn't, it's not good taijutsu.

[Kamiyama]

These are very good post and points being made...
The reason I have asked this question is I read a lot about 'taijutsu' on many post here on e-budo.. but really never know what the meaning of it is.. or what they are saying it is..

So far 'taijutsu' is good if it is good and bad if it is bad.. really no detailed meanings..???

So keep the ideas coming..

kamiyama, ralph severe

[BigJon]

Honestly,

any project you are involved with....(martial or not...) taijutsu.

When I walk my dog every morning, his taijutsu is still better than mine...(For he controls the particuliar situation...., and sometimes my balance...)

When one orders food in a restaraunt(I know from experience)....the waiters, cooks, hosts, and everyone their, have their own types of taijusu...good or bad.

I apologise for being so "generic" in response...but taijutsu is like translating layer after layer.....after...of...

(something unexplainable...except by experiencing it..)

**Hence- NINPO Taijutsu*** or BUDO taijutsu....

[Lockfield]

please pardon a beginner's inquiry,

the way the word taijutsu is being used in this thread is similar to how the term "gung fu/kung fu" is used by the chinese. it refers to the corelation of consciousness and instinct, giving one expertise aquired over time; not just martial movements. is this how you people understand it? isn't taijutsu composed of "tai"-body; and "jutsu"-fighting method? is there more to the word "jutsu" than its martial meaning?

[Justin Thyme]

Forgive my ignorance but I was under the impression that "good" Taijutsu implied the performance of a chosen task with the maximum efficiency and the least amount of muscular effort.
Bouncing up and down on your toes and moving in a zig-zag pattern when walking down the street would be "bad" walking Taijutsu compared with smooth flowing, centered balance walking would it not? (Provided that you are not bouncing and zig-zagging for a specific purpose).

Surely there is "good" and "bad" Taijutsu for every activity we do from getting out of bed to throwing a person across the room? There is an efficient way to perform the task that allows the skeletal structure to be better aligned and the muscles to exert only enough force to achieve the task.

Based on my understanding, bending over at the waist, using the muscles of the lower back, to pick up a quarter on the street would be "bad" (quarter picking)Taijutsu compared to balanced, aligned spine, squating to perform the same task.

I suppose, for myself, I compare my first Judo teacher to an Olympic Judo player. My teacher was blind, not a small man yet VERY soft, light and sensitive. Brute force did nothing to him and you sailed through the air with the greatest of ease. The Olympians tend to demonstrate much brute force these days. Again, the result may be the same, you still sail through the air, but one threw you with little effort and good posture etc. while the other grunted, groaned, heaved and hurled.

So, the end result isn't a consideration between "good" and "bad" Taijutsu from my limited experience. It's the "how" that determines the difference.

This is from a rookies perspective so please take it with a grain of salt.

[BigJon]

Bouncing up and down on your toes and moving in a zig-zag pattern when walking down the street would be "bad" walking Taijutsu compared with smooth flowing, centered balance walking would it not? (Provided that you are not bouncing and zig-zagging for a specific purpose).


Not if you effectively avoided broken glass, panhandlers, or other obstacles while bobbing and zigzagging. Then it was Good Taijutsu.

[Gene Williams]

Taijutsu is a generic name for mixed martial arts seeking a legacy somewhere, anywhere, anywhere at all...somewhere, anywhere, hello, hellooooooo.......

[Tamdhu]

I'll posit taijutsu, in budo terms, as the 'martial arts of distance'. That seems to be what Hatsumi soke calls his budo, and that's good enough for me.

It doesn't tell us much at the outset, of course, but I think that most successful applications of budo in training or otherwise can be described in terms of distancing:

The distance between you and your attacker
The distance between you and the attack itself
The distance between one moment of time and the next
The distance between one movement and another
The distance between one person's intention and another's

And so on.

Still vague, but hazy lumps are appearing . . . in the distance!

[campsinger]

Good taijutsu consists of having proper body alignment, balance, distance, timing, and footwork, all combined together so as to flow seemlessly together as one. Specifically for budo taijutsu, it must flow seemlessly together as one thing while engaged in aggressive negotiations with someone who does not share your opinions on life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness... or at least with a willing training partner. :D Doing various techniques by yourself does not reveal whether one has good budo taijutsu or not. That's why good budo taijutsu is difficult to develop, yet easily identifiable as good or not so good.

Gambatte...

[DWeidman]

Originally posted by Kamiyama
The ‘taijutsu’ thing.

A lot has been written here on e-budo about ‘taijutsu’.
Some feel there is good and bad ‘taijutsu’.
Some say there is a right and wrong way to do ‘taijutsu’.

kamiyama, ralph severe

Fine. I will bite as well.

First - let me repeat Aric's Comments... since everyone seems to be missing his response (on purpose???):


Originally posted by tenchijin2
Taijutsu, as a term all by itself is too generic. EVERY physical activity involves 'taijutsu'. It means "body technique", and Hatsumi sensei has written that belly dancers and pizza throwers have taijutsu. So in this case, there is no 'good' or 'bad' taijutsu.

There must be a modifier, or posessive in front of it, like "budo" taijutsu, or "ninpo" taijutsu for us to be able to discuss whether it is *good* or *bad* taijutsu.

In martial arts, many systems refer to 'taijutsu', and we all know what they mean because of the context. We're talking about the skill of moving the body in a martial context, although different styles have different ideas about what is 'good' or 'bad'.

Within the context of the X-kans - Good taijutsu seems to be related to (in no specific order):

1. Moving smoothly - (not jerky, spastic movement)
2. Keeping your back straight (spine alignment - not always the case, but most of the time...)
3. Not using excessive muscle strength.
4. Using your weapons (force multipliers are a must in budo) as a natural extension of your body.
5. Putting your body in the correct position (correct, as defined by the confines of the engagement).

Bad taijutsu can be describe as lacking in one of the above categories. The list above is not exhaustive - but works as a starting point.

-Daniel Weidman

[Justin Thyme]

Bouncing up and down on your toes and moving in a zig-zag pattern when walking down the street would be "bad" walking Taijutsu compared with smooth flowing, centered balance walking would it not? (Provided that you are not bouncing and zig-zagging for a specific purpose).


Not if you effectively avoided broken glass, panhandlers, or other obstacles while bobbing and zigzagging. Then it was Good Taijutsu.

Sorry Jon, I thought my "(Provided that you are not bouncing and zig-zagging for a specific purpose)" comment covered your additions.:D

Now, as for the rest of the discussions, are we now talking specifically about Budo Taijutsu or Taijutsu in general. Perhaps Ralph would like to jump back in to discuss his initial thoughts when preparing the original question.

Also, is it possible to have "good" Budo Taijutsu yet be ineffective in combat? Are the two related?

[Spunky]

Shift the subject; taijutsu usually implies an understanding of how the components of your body work as a single unit, but simultaneously how you can affect your opponent's body as a whole: don't just break his wrist, capture and smother his entire being.

You can look at it as the general relationship between bodies, which are in turn composed of bodies (systems) themselves, etc... on a large enough scale it is a very sweeping concept.

Then again it might just refer to throwing a good punch :D

[John Haag]

Please know, this is my GUESS as to what it is.
Please let me know...Hot or Cold....

Taijutsu, maybe it is making the best use of your body to get something done effectively and efficiently.

Seems to me that there is a misconception that "Taijutsu" is about unarmed combat. I wouldn't think so. Seems to me that there is a good deal of "Taijutsu" in many Ryu of Chado, art of the tea ceremony...in which the practitioners follow a specific set of movement patterns based on grace and efficiency. Seems to me that they have "Good" Taijutsu...body technique.

Your Brother
John

[Jim_Jude]

no, just kidding.

I do like what everyone is writing tho. I like what Spunky said about smothering someone's beans. I like mine smothered in BBQ sauce. Oh, wait, that's isn't what he meant. Damn, another bad joke on E-budo. ;)

[Fudoushin]

I'm thinking down the lines of the old quote -
"An education is what remains when what you have learned has been forgotten."

Taijutsu to me at least is the effective movement body movement that naturally appears in the very moments they are needed - tripping on a curb, dodging a car, distancing from an aggressor, catching a falling child, etc. I've seen Hatsumi mention that he's always looking to get people to move more naturally.
Taijutsu may very well be the natural movement that is left after we forget everything that we have ever learned.

Good topic anyway!

Have fun.

[DWeidman]

Geesh!!!

Can I ask why people are still guessing as to what Taijutsu means? It seems to me there was an answer posted before - and unless someone wants to disagree with it, then there isn't a good reason to still be "guessing". (Does ANYONE disagree with this answer???)

Here (again) is the quote:


Originally posted by tenchijin2
Taijutsu, as a term all by itself is too generic. EVERY physical activity involves 'taijutsu'. It means "body technique", and Hatsumi sensei has written that belly dancers and pizza throwers have taijutsu. So in this case, there is no 'good' or 'bad' taijutsu.

There must be a modifier, or posessive in front of it, like "budo" taijutsu, or "ninpo" taijutsu for us to be able to discuss whether it is *good* or *bad* taijutsu.

In martial arts, many systems refer to 'taijutsu', and we all know what they mean because of the context. We're talking about the skill of moving the body in a martial context, although different styles have different ideas about what is 'good' or 'bad'.

Now... that said (again) - the only part left to discuss are the modifiers "good" and "bad". And that, by nature, is subjective - there won't be any hard, clear answers.

-Daniel Weidman

[John Haag]

Originally posted by DWeidman
Geesh!!!

Can I ask why people are still guessing as to what Taijutsu means? the only part left to discuss are the modifiers "good" and "bad". And that, by nature, is subjective - there won't be any hard, clear answers.

-Daniel Weidman

Mr. Weidman
What about whether or not the 'taijutsu' used was effective and efficient in getting done what needed done? Wouldn't that be a less subjective criteria in determining 'good/bad taijutsu'?

Your Brother
John

[ElfTengu]

Do watch out though, there are people out there that are actually telling people that taijutsu is a cross between Thai Boxing and Jujitsu?

Funny huh?

[choombatta]

Thai-jutsu.... the Art of being Thai?

*giggle*

[ElfTengu]

Yes, like ninjutsu but with lemongrass and coconut.

[DWeidman]

Originally posted by John Haag
Mr. Weidman
What about whether or not the 'taijutsu' used was effective and efficient in getting done what needed done? Wouldn't that be a less subjective criteria in determining 'good/bad taijutsu'?

Your Brother
John

Perhaps - I am sure there are some who would make effectiveness an (the?) criteria for good taijutsu. Others probably wouldn't - hence - subjective.

Examples: What if a person just crouched down then rushed in an football tackled the other guy. Would that be good taijutsu? Or how about two guys that just stand with their feet planted trading power punches to the face... If you can take more than the other guy and you win - is that good taijutsu?

Efficiency is almost always debateable...

Good question though.

-Daniel

[Terry Ham]

I was watching the Takamatsu Sensei DVD and noticed that on Hatsumi Sensei Menkyo Kaiden for Togakure Ryu it says Togakure Ryu Ninpo Tai jutsu, but the Tai for Taijutsu is not the same kanji commonly used by Sensei today.

Anyone know what the meaning is for this Kanji?

[Kamiyama]

It's the same...

kamiyama, ralph severe

[Mr.Franco]

I think that there are two things being discussed here. Good Taijutsu and proper Taijutsu.

With in our nine schools there is basic footwork and body movement which is unique to our system of combat. If one uses this movement, than this is proper taijutsu-If one uses this movement efficiently and effectively, than this is good taijutsu.

[tenchijin2]

Again, 'good taijutsu' and 'bad taijutsu' are NOT TERMS THAT CAN HAVE ANY REAL MEANING! First you have to decide WHICH taijutsu we're discussing. Is it:

Budo taijutsu?
koppo taijutsu?
aikido taijutsu?
dancer taijutsu?
knife throwing taijutsu?

The question was "what is taijutsu". It is simply technique with the body, period.

If you want to start discussing what is 'good' and 'bad', you have to use one of the modifiers to specify what 'taijutsu' we're talking about. Then you have to ask, "what are the priorities?" After you know what kind of taijutsu and what it is designed for, then AND ONLY THEN can you decide if it's 'good' or 'bad'.

Please, please, remember that all martial arts have 'taijutsu' and that it is not a term specific to the Bujinkan. To throw the term out like it's the name of our martial art "well, I study taijutsu" is to confuse the issue. Everyone involved in a physical study studies 'taijutsu'. Not everyone studies "bujinkan taijutsu". Even fewer practice "good" bujinkan taijutsu:)

[Mr.Franco]

Since we are in a martial arts forum (ninjutsu/ninpo to be more specific) and the person who asked the question has a relationship with the Bujinkan, than one would presume that we were talking about Budo Taijutsu. But if we want to act stupid and waste peoples time and say we could be talking about anything but Budo Taijutsu, than stop being a moron by asking such idiotic questions on this forum.

That being said-Good Day!

[tenchijin2]

No, we shouldn't assume that at all. Ralph asked the question very open ended, presumbably for a reason.

He asked:

"In ALL Japanese martial arts regardless of what they are or where they came from there is ‘taijutsu’.
This is a very common usage of a word, body skills in other words ‘taijutsu’.
Take a few seconds and help us all come together with a common meaning…
In your opinion what would you feel ‘taijutsu’ is ?
In your opinion what is good or bad ‘taijutsu’ ?"

He isn't just referring to the Bujinkan. He explicity states ALL japanese martial arts.

The first question, "what is taijutsu", must be answered before the second question for the answers to have any meaning.

[Kamiyama]

The reason I was asking is the term "good taijutsu and bad taijutsu" was used in the 80's to speak of people in the Bujinkan... a level of their skills.

I was asking because Don R still used this method in his post.

I was wonder why it was used and why others didn't ponder what it was he or even others were saying when using it.

I feel these are very good post about the question I asked.
More or less a LOT was really said and I feel others see it or think of it more orless like I have.

Not a big deal.

Thanks..........................................

kamiyama, ralph severe

[campsinger]

Originally posted by Kamiyama
In ALL Japanese martial arts regardless of what they are or where they came from there is ‘taijutsu’. This is a very common usage of a word, body skills in other words ‘taijutsu’.

Take a few seconds and help us all come together with a common meaning…
In your opinion what would you feel ‘taijutsu’ is ?

It is understood that every activity has it's own taijutsu, from playing piano to making pizzas. But we should focus specifically on the parameters of the question that was posed. As previously mentioned, this is the Ninpo and Ninjutsu Forum and the Kamayama's question does reference all martial arts, so our discussion parameters consist of defining taijutsu as it relates to martial arts in general, and ninpo specifically.


Originally posted by Fudoushin
Taijutsu to me at least is the effective movement body movement that naturally appears in the very moments they are needed

Originally posted by John Haag
Taijutsu, maybe it is making the best use of your body to get something done effectively and efficiently.

Originally posted by campsinger
Good taijutsu consists of having proper body alignment, balance, distance, timing, and footwork, all combined together so as to flow seemlessly together as one.
Originally posted by DWeidman
1. Moving smoothly - (not jerky, spastic movement)
2. Keeping your back straight (spine alignment - not always the case, but most of the time...)
3. Not using excessive muscle strength.
4. Using your weapons (force multipliers are a must in budo) as a natural extension of your body.
5. Putting your body in the correct position (correct, as defined by the confines of the engagement).

Bad taijutsu can be describe as lacking in one of the above categories.

Perhaps the above quotes support the idea that there is beginning to be a concensus about what taijutsu is. That being said, it must be noted that although every martial has it's own taijutsu, not all of them are necessarily "good," at least in respect to ninpo's definition of "good taijutsu."

The following opinions are my own; if you don't agree, that's fine. My intention is not to dis any particular martial art nor promote ninpo as the ultimate martial art. I'm just viewing the concept of "good taijutsu" through the lense of ninpo.

Some martial arts tend to have very jerky, stop-n-go gross and fine motor motions combined with poor footwork and distancing; i.e., TaeKwonDo and some Karate styles. Some arts appear to have good taijutsu on the surface, but have a very high percentage chance of causing injury to the practitioner due to the technique in and of itself or due to "holes" in the kamae that allow an attacker in; i.e., the ukemi of judo and aikido. Some styles are eclectic in their origin, and the body posturings and footwork don't complement each other; i.e., Hapkido, and JeetKuneDo. Any style that has a formalized sport or competition aspect often does not deal with realistic attacks, thus leading to "bad taijutsu;" i.e., TaeKwondo, Judo, Aikido, some Karate styles, Kendo, and Naginata-style fencing. (I'll cut Judo some slack here, as they specify that they are dealing with grappling attacks, not striking attacks.)

Bearing all of these things in mind, I've had practitioners of TaeKwonDo, Karate, Judo, and Aikido tell me, "Well, in an actual self-defense situation you would do it this way." But that's my point. If a martial art is designed for use in combat or self-defense situations, why would you use the caveat "in an actual self-defense situation?" Doesn't that statement imply that the style under normal training circumstances employs "poor taijutsu?" Or is it simply a matter of some martial arts not being "martial" in their philosophy and technical mechanics?

Gambatte...