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JGApprentice
12th April 2004, 23:11
Hi, my name is Zac Hubert and I am new here. This is a broad topic, so I didn't know where to post, I couldn't find a dojo locator here. And it's a bit difficult to classify under one of the sub-sections. If however, this is out of place, please feel free to move it.

I live in Stuart, FL, yeah most people in this state don't know where it is. It's in Martin Country, around Jupiter, Indiantown, St. Lucie, Ft. Pierce, Hobe Sound, etc. I just moved here, so I was hoping to join a local dojo.

I visited two, but couldn't figure out much, because everyone was scattered about, practicing their own drills. And I was a bit timid to ask the instructors any question, in case they are improper issue or not.

I've also managed to explore a few sites in the web about dojos near where I live. I came across one that seemed suspicious, it seemed the site designer was praising a guy named "Grandmaster XXX, invented Shaolin Kempo Karate just over three decades." The art originated in the east, but the grandmaster is not eastern. Not that I am trying to sound unethically stereotypical here, but I thought Shaolin Kempo Karate style is very old to have any recent grandmaster.

So I was hoping if anyone here knew any renowned and qualified instructors in my area? Regardless of the style of the martial art, whether armed (kendo/iaido etc) or unarmed(karate/kung fu etc), any good one would do. Suffice to say, I have little to no experience in Judo from previous institution. Thank you very much for your help and reading this .

Tripitaka of AA
13th April 2004, 06:05
Hi Zac

In some ways you've answered your own question, when you say;

any good one would do.

If you're not too fussy about which style, nationality or even whether it's armed or unarmed, then the choice is going to come down to the more practical "do you like the class and/or the instructor".

At this point I should say "Shorini Kempo" is the best and wisest and most healthy and ...etc. But for most purposes, the key elements to look for in a Dojo are;

1. Is it safe? Are the Instructors experienced in what they're teaching (Years of training, years of teaching, long time at same location).

2. Is it easy to get to? Even if you like the training, if it will take 2 hours each way to get there, then chances are that you'll drop out quickly.

3. Will you learn something of value? Does it claim to teach a traditional style or a sport/self-defence style or a kill-with-one-shout style? What do YOU want from a class?

4. Can you afford it? Most hobbies and pastimes cost, Martial Arts training is no exception. Cost of the facilities is one thing, cost of tuition is another. Some so-called "McDojo" will have a plethora ;) of merchandise and additional expenses that help to supplement the regular fees and act as a bigger drain on your wallet. Will you be paying for loads of "special seminars" and extra courses that should be part of the usual training?




There are charlatans, quacks and frauds out there who seek to part you from your money. There are well-meaning but inept people who have honest intentions but lack the skills required to be good instructors. There are brilliant, inspirational, caring, talented and knowledgable instructors who will add something to your life that you may not have expected.... the tough part is trying to work out which ones are which. There are many, many, many "suckers", errr... naiive customers, who are drawn like moths to a flame, to the dubious and mean. Good luck in your quest.

Elsewhere n E-Budo, you will find some excellent threads that expose corrupt practitioners of Martial Arts (often an American thing, but we have them here in the UK too :( ). You might also be able to find far better advice than I've given, on how to choose the "good Dojo".

Hot tips;

Don't listen to "Member of Martial Arts Hall of Fame". It doesn't mean anything (in many cases, although there are exceptions).

Be wary of a style that has been "created" by someone who is less than, say, 40. In most cases, that won't have given them enough time to have mastered anything enough to be able to create something new. It probably means that they have broken away from their own teachers and have an over-inflated sense of their own worth. "most cases".

Watch the character of the senior students in the class. Look for "friendly", "helpful", "informed" and "keen". Avoid "superior", "bullying", "swaggering" and "lazy".


I can't tell you about Shorinji Kempo classes in your local area (the five thousand miles between us and my lack of local knowledge precludes it), but this advice goes for any class you might find. There are US based Kenshi (someone who does Shorinji Kempo is referred to as a "Kenshi"), who may have better insight...

Lastly, if you have visited a few Dojo to check them out and one has set off yur alarm bells, you could try asking on the "Baffling Budo" forum whether anyone knows about the person in question. Also "Shorinji Kempo" is a very specific name, that refers to the style originated in Tadotsu, Japan. Created in 1947 by Doshin So. See
World Shorinji Kempo Organisation (http://wsko.econ-net.or.jp/wh-shorinji/)website for details. Other things that use Shaolin/Shorin/Shorinji or Kempo/Kenpo are separate and different :)

Andrej Mantei
13th April 2004, 11:37
sorry, double post ...

Andrej Mantei
13th April 2004, 11:40
Originally posted by Tripitaka of AA
Also "Shorinji Kempo" is a very specific name, that refers to the style originated in Tadotsu, Japan. Created in 1947 by Doshin So.


but parts of Shorinji Kempo come from traditional Shaolin Kung Fu, since Kaiso (= founder, Doshin So) during his time in China became 21st grandmaster (and the last as far as I know) and direct successor of "Wen-Lanshi, the head of the North Shorinji [Shaolin] Ihermen-thuen (a school whose techniques center on embu). The institution preserved kempo in a from closest to the orthodox North Shorinji line." [Shorinji Kempo - Philosophy and Techniques - By Doshin So, History of Shorinji Kempo, page 15].
Based upon that and a very broad experience in several other martial arts Kaiso classified techniques and restructured the whole thing as well as incorporated new techniques and improved traditional ones etc. etc. There's a lot more in it especially the philosphical part which is well explained on the WSKO site (see link in previous post).

That Grandmaster XXX you mentioned has no whatsoever ties to Shorinji Kempo © (yes, it is copyright protected :) ) and is most probably (as David said) one of those who "have broken away from their own teachers and have an over-inflated sense of their own worth."
I mean, anyone who boasts to be "grandmaster" of his own self invented martial art is very suspicious to me. There are lots of selfappointed grandmasters of that type.

However, David gave a very good list of things to take into account when looking for something you want to study seriously.

Good luck then ... :D

Tripitaka of AA
13th April 2004, 11:59
Originally posted by Andrej Mantei

Based upon that and a very broad experience in several other martial arts Kaiso classified techniques and restructured the whole thing as well as incorporated new techniques and improved traditional ones etc. etc. There's a lot more in it especially the philosphical part which is well explained on the WSKO site (see link in previous post).

<snip>

I mean, anyone who boasts to be "grandmaster" of his own self invented martial art is very suspicious to me. There are lots of selfappointed grandmasters of that type.


The irony in these potentially contradictory statements was not lost on me when I wrote MY post. Anyone more cynical than us might be tempted to draw a comparison between Kaiso and Grandmaaster XXX...

Andrej Mantei
13th April 2004, 12:03
I know ... but Kaiso didn't appoint himself grandmaster ... he was appointed by one of a long line of grandmasters ... thought about that myself ... but due to my limited english skills wasn't able to put it with less contradictory potential :)

JGApprentice
13th April 2004, 13:03
Thanks for the advice guys :). Just need to find a decent school now.

My apologies if I presumed wrong (about Grandmaster XXX), but this is school teaches Shorinji Kempo Karate, about 16 miles from where I live.

http://www.villarismartialarts.com/history.htm

There are some local TKD and Karate neighborhood shops around where I live; and I use the term "shop," because I feel it's apt enough to describe it. I dont know, I have become pessimistic about local dojos where every time you go in, 3-5 year old girls claims to be a green belt, brown belt, and have broken boards. And then it makes me wonder, but for the time being, I applaud, ohhh that is adorable!

Tripitaka of AA
13th April 2004, 13:14
Andrej, your English language skills put mine to shame.

Kaiso was shown approval and granted title by his seniors. This and the continued growth of his art twenty years after his death are the testament to its value. As an art, and an organisation, I feel it has been validated. The strength of the organisation is enough to offer some level of guarantee to potential students, that the instruction they recieve and the techniques that they are taught are sound. The WSKO make sure that Instructors conform and perform to a given standard.

But trumpet-blowing aside, the local club (of any art) that has a good bunch of folks who are willing to train hard but safe is probably enough for most people... because most people, however well-intentioned, will only study a martial art for between six months to a year, two at the most. As long as you don't get ripped off or permanently injured during this time then I reckon you'll most likely spend your later years looking back with nostalgia on the time you spent being fit, healthy and strong, kicking butt and getting bruises when you still had free time to do such things. Real Life is the catch-all phrase that explains why so many people don't manage to continue their studies much longer than that.

Good luck with the searching. I hope you find something as good as I found. Most of the people on this forum do Shorinji Kempo and love it. I used to do it, and still love it.

JGApprentice
13th April 2004, 13:40
Well I posted that site, do they sound professionally renowned? Here is my ignorance, but to me it seems odd that if a sensei is out of shape, the peron still reserves the right to be legitimitely a grandmaster of a dojo. Shouldn't karate help to reduce a beer belly? The only exception to that rule is timeless, profound Mr. Miyagi. :D

Tripitaka of AA
13th April 2004, 13:59
Hi Zac

You sneaked that last post in before I noticed.

Fred Villari is a name that is indeed well-known. I have no idea how good his style is, or how well-taught the instructors are, but the website has a nice polish don't you think!

You'll note that he calls it "Shaolin Kempo Karate". This type of mixed-language labelling infuriates the linguists.Shaolin is the Chinese name for the temple location, in romanized Japanese it is spelled/pronounced Shorin (Shorinji means "Shaolin Temple"). Kempo means "Fist Method". Karate means "Empty Hand", or in the older Okinawan usage "Chinese Hand". Therefore the mix of Chinese-Japanese-Japanese is odd, and it translates as Shaolin Boxing Boxing... or thereabouts. You use either Kempo or Karate (karate-do), but not both together.

That said, it may be a brilliant place to train and meet great folk. I don't know. Perhaps you ought to ring them and ask to watch a class. Do that for all the other clubs in your area and see if you can pick up the atmospheric clues as to which is right for you.

Tripitaka of AA
13th April 2004, 14:08
D'oh!

That's ANOTHER post that sneaked in just before me.

Still, my post looks like it was referring to the second one, which I guess is OK.

Tripitaka of AA
13th April 2004, 14:19
GrandMaster

it is one of those words that has escaped the dictionaries.

Most people use it as follows;

Instructor = teaches certain groups of students within the class, or certain sections of the class (eg. warm-ups).
Master = The senior Teacher at the club. Overall responsibility for the class. Tells the Instructors what to do.
GrandMaster = A teacher who has students that have now become Masters in their own right. If he still teaches then within the class he is probably referred to as the Master.

But, there is no really clear definition, as this type of structure comes from traditional Chinese Martial Arts, or traditional Japanese Martial Arts, where the titles are naturally in Chinese or Japanese.

As the Villari website explains, they have mixed roots in Okinawan Karate, Chinese Kung Fu, Tibetan Chin Na and Japanese Kempo, so whatever they do for titles is pretty much up to them.


Beer-belly?

Hey, everyone gets old in the end. Bellies, like the birds and women's breasts, tend to go South in the Winter. This you will come to understand, Grasshopper!

JGApprentice
13th April 2004, 14:37
Originally posted by Tripitaka of AA
Beer-belly?

Hey, everyone gets old in the end. Bellies, like the birds and women's breasts, tend to go South in the Winter. This you will come to understand, Grasshopper!

LOL, hey at least the Tai Chi instructos are skinny, :D.

I have little knowledge of Okinawa te, Shorin Ryu, and how all these similar arts sneaked in to Okinawa. But is it possible for a grandmaster to claim founder of Shaolin Kempo Karate style just recently? I mean that means many things.

Andrej Mantei
13th April 2004, 14:41
polished ... that's the correct term ... although not very informative concerning techniques etc. ... seems to me they distribute degrees pretty freely. I wonder if there's any widely recognized institution/organization that did control grading and standards. Got the impression there's none. At least concerning web design they are really bad ... if you go to "Intructors" it loads a total of 6,4 MB !!! just to show you about 10 pics so small that you hardly recognize faces without possibility to enlarge them. really annoying ... sorry this doesn't tell anything about their martial arts system but really annoyed me. However, what is written on that site sounds pretty well so far. But as I said before it's rather general. No specific information about their system. Just stuff like this :

"Grandmaster Villari’s Shaolin Kempo Karate system also incorporates the venerable art of Chin Na. It is the ultimate form of neutralizing an opponent, utilizing holding, seizing, locking, throwing, felling and delivering controlled pain. No other martial art gives such control over an attacker.

Grandmaster Villari also teaches moves of the Immortal Monkey, known for its art of illusion. The Monkey cannot be hit. Its movements are lightning-quick with the ability to change its direction rapidly. It never exhausts its energy and has superior longevity. The monkey is always happy!"

Sorry but that doesn't sound very professional to me. If that system is as you stated about 30 years old so I wonder how there can be 6th dan and 5th dan (black belt degree) already. Once again: standards? It's not impossible but weird I think. I wonder what connections to Villari they really have.

They appear to have their own martial arts stuff shop and apparently have "all in one"-offers, including uniforms sparring and training gear and one month of training. Maybe I'm too used to non-profit dojos but sounds like Woolworth giving out discount points. However, I may be completely wrong. Surely there are forum members who are much more knowledgeable and apt to judge that.
Best you can do is go and have a try. They seem to offer free classes, take a chance :).

I'm for my part are rather suspicious. You should apply some thinking to what you really expect of the martial art you are going to learn: self defense? physical training? self confidence? just distraction? philosophical "enlightenment" :D? ... This might narrow down the choices. AND choosing a certain martial art/dojo now. Doesn't mean you can't find another one if you're not content. Many of us at e-budo have a certain history of martial arts before they stuck to one or a few one (concerning me: grappling, judo, taekwondo, karate, arnis, aikido, capoeira, shorinji kempo ... the bold ones for a longer period of time :) ).

Good luck, once again :) ... Let us know as it's advancing ...

Greetz ...

JGApprentice
13th April 2004, 14:48
I have done judo last year for a while, but it's a university type, they're very competitive. They wanted things to progress fast I think, obviously because it was a course curriculum. They were training for upcoming match in Taiwan or something. I didn't find it to be my niche, because I wanted some atemi in there, and they had none. And then they started throwing one techs after another.

Andrej Mantei
13th April 2004, 14:50
BEER-BELLY

certainly no feature to judge quality by. I know of several (and have seen some) great martial artists, senseis etc. who had something you would've considered a real hindrance to any efficient application of martial arts who then turned out to be very agile or/and of great expertise/mastery in/of their art (especially in Capoeira, Aikido & Judo)

greetz ...

JGApprentice
13th April 2004, 14:54
What about in striking arts? I wasn't exactly referring to Aikidokas, Judokas, and those who practice Iaido/Kendo etc, they have fast reflexes. I was referring to karate McDojos people in general. :D It's great to know samurai spirit is still alive.

Andrej Mantei
13th April 2004, 15:07
honestly ... I never really met McDojo people :) ... but Capoeira is a pretty athletic martial art with alot of kicking etc. (no weapons btw., it's brazilian :) ). Kicking in japanese martial arts style if done correctly in most cases requires turning of hip so the belly will be out of way. Concerning punches I'm not sure :) ... however. If you want to know the ultimate truth try to attack one of them beer-bellied MCDojo people - defeating him will prove your point otherwise mine :D .

Good luck again :)

Tripitaka of AA
13th April 2004, 15:18
This forum is about Shorinji Kempo. This thread has become an analysis of another style/branch about which none of the correspondents has any personal knowledge.

Perhaps the Lounge is the appropriate forum, where someone with experience of the "Villari System" may be able to contribute.

At the Shorinji Kempo Forum, although we're happy to help, we can't offer a KNOW-EVERYTHING guide to choosing a Dojo. Perhaps the Members Lounge is better qualified for this.


Disclaimer: The following observations are made purely based on my own interpretations of the infprmation on a website regarding the Villari studio referred to above. I don't know the place, the people, the style or its history. If you agree with my observations fine, if you don't then that's fine too, please feel free to put me rught if I have misunderstood.

Observations:
Having read through the website for the Villari Dojo (studio) it seems to be what I imagine when I hear the phrase "McDojo". This is not necessarily all bad.

There is a well-equipped, brightly-lit place of training, in a busy Mall location. It offers bright, colourful, attractive techniques in bright, colourful, attractive costumes that appeal to youngsters. It has a polished, neat and clean appearance and looks to be a safe place to bring the kids. It talks about "his system has spread nationally and internationally and has a permanent record in the annals of martial arts history." and I am reminded of the "100 million customers served" signs outside the McDonalds chain restaurants.

The downside would be a Jack-Of-All-Trades accusation that might appear relevant when you consider all the various arts which are being taught all at the same time. McDonalds sometimes sell Pizza, Kebab, etc. which, although edible, wouldn't get served in an authentic specialist restaurant

Steve Williams
13th April 2004, 19:39
This is as you said not related to Shorinji, so going to go in a more appropriate forum.....