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fowlerl
11th June 2000, 06:14
I am reading Draeger's _Modern Bujutsu & Budo_, and on page 79 there is an interesting paragraph:

"During the relatively peaceful centuries of Tokugawa, however, battlefield combat was virtually impossible, and civil brawling with
the live blade was illegal without specific bakufu sanction. Thus, in this relatively tame social environment, the positive style of kenjutsu quickly became anachronistic. In its place the so-called "vacant style" of swordsmanship was created. This is characterized by a dominantly "wait and see" attitude, the tactic of suki o mitsukeru, observing and taking the advantage of a weakness in defense (suki) of the enemy through an error in judgement. Kaho is also the central training method in the vacant style of kenjutsu: but far less dynamic exercises than those of the positive style make up its repetoire."

Often, usually in fact, we are taught to defend against, not how to overcome [of course we could say that both are the same, so let's avoid that argument, the point is one of aggression and will; the desire/need to defeat your opponent quickly/now]. I have never a discussion about the vacant, nor the positive style; perhaps the terminology is different, but I imagine that the meaning would be the same.

Have you ever heard your sensei speak about this aspect of kenjutsu [vacant vs positive]?

Draeger notes that Jigen Ryu, founded by Togo Bizen no Kami (1563-1643) was the best example of the positive style: "provokingly
aggressive tactics in which the swordsman is ready at any instant to strike down his enemy".

One question comes to mind: is the positive/vacant style more a reflection of the personality of the swordsman. Would the poor vacant swordsmen have been poor positive swordsmen as well?, and could a good positive swordsman have been a equally good vacant swordsman?

I guess this could be extended to a difference between aikido and aikijutsu...

lfowler

[This message has been edited by fowlerl (edited 06-11-2000).]

Brently Keen
13th June 2000, 21:42
lfowler wrote:

"I guess this could be extended to a difference between aikido and aikijutsu..."

Huh?


* * * * *

As I frequently post on the differences between aikijujutsu and other arts, I'm going to extend my reply a bit more. I am well aware of the terms positive and vacant swordsmanship. I was hoping Mr. Fowler might expand on what he meant.

Far be it for me to disagree with Draeger, but I tend to think that these terms more accurately refer to different strategies or individual tendencies rather than styles.

Perhaps we could hear some more "expert" opinions from the likes of Meik or Diane Skoss, Karl Friday, Ellis Amdur, and Dave Lowry? Anyone else feel free to pipe in too.

Respectfully,

Brently Keen


[Edited by Brently Keen on 06-21-2000 at 12:20 PM]

13th June 2000, 23:25
Mr Fowler,

Positive heiho in bujutsu was and continues to be frequently taught in our ryu and several others. It is demonstrated in many levels of application from ryu to ryu. Takamura Yukiyoshi's ( Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin ryu ) grandfather Ohbata Shigeta was evidently quite an adept at a positive heiho called "totsuzenken" or striking from the subconscious. It is considered a quite advanced talent and when properly executed it demonstrates nothing to give the inevitability of a particular attack away. In simple terms it is best described as an attack reflex instead of a defense reflex. In most western thought this is a contradictory concept as reflex is usually considered "reactive". There are specific mental & physical training drills in the Takamura ryuha okuden which intuitively foster increasing success in waza utilizing this concept. We commonly stress heiho such as this in a family of techniques which we classify as "Ippatsu Waza" Unfortunately more specific discussion of these concepts and drills would conflict with a keppan taken by myself at Joden level in our ryu so I cannot elaborate much further. I'm not trying to be snobbish or anything, I am simply honor bound to only discuss broad aspects of our ryuha's okuden in public. If you are familiar with Nihon Bujutsu I'm sure you will understand my caution in this matter.

I believe many of the specific and similar positive heiho just discussed were incorporated into the Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin ryu partially from the Jikishinkage ryu. Perhaps someone on E-budo studies Jikishinkage ryu and could add some additional information to what I have provided.

I noticed that Dave Lowry has posted here recently. As he is much senior to myself and is a practitioner of Yagyu Shinkage ryu, I would be interested in his feedback to your question as well. Since some concepts tracable from Shinkage ryu are incorporated into our ryuha via Sensei Namishiro Matsu, I continue study of these as well. These are more similar in nature to the "vacant heiho" you described in your post but we refer to them as "myojinken" or "concealed" heiho.

Toby Threadgill
Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin ryu
Soryushin Dojo, Dallas

Ron Tisdale
21st June 2000, 14:50
I might be mistaken, but I believe that Dr. Karl Friday spends a little time on this in his tome on Kashima Shinryu. It was a very interesting concept.

I think your comment on aikido vs aikijujutsu is interesting as well. I think that aikido can have a "positive" strategy too, its a matter of how you train. Of course, I'm not very good at any aikido yet, so this is just my opinion. Try using atemi to lead into your aikido techniques; try using changes in ma-ai to lead into your techniques. There seems to be many ways to "positively" use aikido in many situations. In yoshinkan aikido, there is a stress on "forward focus". Even this seems to be able to impart a positive aspect.
Ron Tisdale

Daniel Pokorny
22nd June 2000, 15:24
Originally posted by Ron Tisdale
I might be mistaken, but I believe that Dr. Karl Friday spends a little time on this in his tome on Kashima Shinryu. It was a very interesting concept.

I think your comment on aikido vs aikijujutsu is interesting as well. I think that aikido can have a "positive" strategy too, its a matter of how you train. Of course, I'm not very good at any aikido yet, so this is just my opinion. Try using atemi to lead into your aikido techniques; try using changes in ma-ai to lead into your techniques. There seems to be many ways to "positively" use aikido in many situations. In yoshinkan aikido, there is a stress on "forward focus". Even this seems to be able to impart a positive aspect.
Ron Tisdale

I've been doing both Aikido and MJERI for a few years now and have often contemplated this very issue. Previous to my MA training I was a bouncer in what I still believe to be the most "active" red-neck bar in the Midwest. We would average perhaps a dozen confrontations per night on the weekends. If I found myself involved in a situation that included "bubba and his pals" and physical activity was obviously inevitable, I would often initiate the first contact in order to gain and maintain control of the situation until help arrived. This worked very well for me and I would now consider this a "positive" action.

When I first started Aikido, I had a real problem with the idea that in training I was not to attack first, even when it was obvious that a confrontation was going to occur. This went against all I had experienced in actual situations. However, further in my training and with the instruction of a great sensei (Dennis Hooker) I have learned since that indeed there are many situations in Aikido that one must "initiate" a response from the attacker(s). Randori is a perfect example of initiating the activity in order to obtain an advantage in positioning. People surround me with obvious intent, I'm not going to be very "vacant" in that situation and my actions will be very "positive" indeed.

I also have the great pleasure of training in MJERI with both "Shima" sensei and Carl Long sensei out of PA. Long sensei has spent a lot of time with both Miura sensei in Osaka and "Shima" sensei in San Diego. Both sensei have ALWAYS emphasized having "spirit" in training and NOT doing "dead" iai. I don't know, but I think this may be relative to the "positive/vacant" issues being discussed here.

In conclusion, I guess all the sensei's I have had the fortune and pleasure of training with have addressed the issue of "positive/vacant" at one level or another. One must pay close attention though as sometimes the words are just different.

two pennies clink in the pot.

Regards,

Daniel C. Pokorny

Dennis Hooker
23rd June 2000, 14:06
Thought precedes action! Thought requires a physical chemical action in the brain, so energy proceeds thought. In the thought's creation lays the seed of the interaction about to begin. So who has really started the affaire. I have seen, and been with Aikido and swordsman whom you swear could read your thoughts and before you have a chance to bring the thought forward into attack you have already been countered. So who started it? Can one person see this in another, and although never of a bond is built and the futility of aggression is realized.

Dennis Hooker
http://www.shindai.com


I think your comment on aikido vs aikijujutsu is interesting as well. I think that aikido can have a "positive" strategy too, its a matter of how you train. Of course, I'm not very good at any aikido yet, so this is just my opinion. Try using atemi to lead into your aikido techniques; try using changes in ma-ai to lead into your techniques. There seems to be many ways to "positively" use aikido in many situations. In yoshinkan aikido, there is a stress on "forward focus". Even this seems to be able to impart a positive aspect.
Ron Tisdale [/B][/QUOTE]

I've been doing both Aikido and MJERI for a few years now and have often contemplated this very issue. Previous to my MA training I was a bouncer in what I still believe to be the most "active" red-neck bar in the Midwest. We would average perhaps a dozen confrontations per night on the weekends. If I found myself involved in a situation that included "bubba and his pals" and physical activity was obviously inevitable, I would often initiate the first contact in order to gain and maintain control of the situation until help arrived. This worked very well for me and I would now consider this a "positive" action.

When I first started Aikido, I had a real problem with the idea that in training I was not to attack first, even when it was obvious that a confrontation was going to occur. This went against all I had experienced in actual situations. However, further in my training and with the instruction of a great sensei (Dennis Hooker) I have learned since that indeed there are many situations in Aikido that one must "initiate" a response from the attacker(s). Randori is a perfect example of initiating the activity in order to obtain an advantage in positioning. People surround me with obvious intent, I'm not going to be very "vacant" in that situation and my actions will be very "positive" indeed.

I also have the great pleasure of training in MJERI with both "Shima" sensei and Carl Long sensei out of PA. Long sensei has spent a lot of time with both Miura sensei in Osaka and "Shima" sensei in San Diego. Both sensei have ALWAYS emphasized having "spirit" in training and NOT doing "dead" iai. I don't know, but I think this may be relative to the "positive/vacant" issues being discussed here.

In conclusion, I guess all the sensei's I have had the fortune and pleasure of training with have addressed the issue of "positive/vacant" at one level or another. One must pay close attention though as sometimes the words are just different.

two pennies clink in the pot.

Regards,

Daniel C. Pokorny [/B][/QUOTE]