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Doug Daulton
24th October 2000, 17:15
An open thread dedicated to general questions regarding the tekko or metal knuckles as used in Okinawan weapons traditions

JS3
24th October 2000, 17:22
Alright,
someone tell me that these bad boys were farming tools. lol
Pure weapon IMHO. Does anyone know of any kata for them. I belive that you can simply use them in any "empty hand" kata

thanks

Doug Daulton
24th October 2000, 17:40
Originally posted by JS3
someone tell me that these bad boys were farming tools. lol Pure weapon IMHO. Does anyone know of any kata for them. I belive that you can simply use them in any "empty hand" kata

Tekko were not farming tools, but they are believed to be derived from a common farming implement ... the horseshoe or the stirrup (from a saddle). Tekko come in all shapes and sizes, each with there own particular theory/application.

The only kata which I am aware of for this weapon is "Maezato no Tekko" which was developed by Taira Shinken from techniques handed down to him by his grandfather, Kanegawa Gibu. To my knowledge, this kata is only found in schools of Taira's lineage.

While one could simply do open hand kata with the Tekko, it is critical that one understand how the weapon is used. It has many more subtle applications than simply making an iron fist.

PS: There is another weapon called the tichhu which is similar, but different. E-budo member Mario McKenna wrote a great piece on it in JAMA last year. Perhaps he'll chime in on this thread.

JS3
24th October 2000, 17:46
"PS: There is another weapon called the tichhu which is similar, but different"

I think I know what your talking about.
In the IOKA (Internetional Okinawa Kobudo Association)
their called Techu (inside hand probably the same thing I read the thread on language) I belive the one kata is called "Kohbu No Tinaka" (my spelling might be off)

Thanks

AST
24th October 2000, 20:56
Can confirm that.

One kata created by Taira, Maezato no tekko. Also we have 10 ippon kumite in the Yuishinkai. Tekko vs Empty hand. Not really very fair for the guy without the tekko.

kusanku
25th October 2000, 01:23
There are only a few recent kata for tekko.

However, one can perform a sort of open hand version of Naihanchi kata with either the tekko or tecchu, and open the palms to strike with them and use on pressure points as well.

Tekko are cool.They spin.

So are the clumsier cousin from Japan, the yawara stick, and the kongo(diamond), or lightning bolt,as called in India,yes, the weapons have a long history, the iron version.

Now THAT is no farming tool.



[Edited by kusanku on 10-25-2000 at 03:40 AM]

Mario
27th October 2000, 10:15
The Tekko and Tecchu are some of the few Ryukyu Kobudo weapons which can be concealed. It is generally argued that the Tekko evolved from the horse and / or stirups of the saddle. Regardless of its origins, the Tekko (and the Tecchu to a lesser extent) can be easily carried and used to devasting effect on an opponent.

There is a curious similarity between the Tekko and the Bankokuchoki of the Nagao-ryu. According the Draeger's Classical Budo (pp. 116) the Bankokuchoki was a metal ring grasped by the hand and used to deliver atemi. The Nagao-ryu specialized in Kakushi buki (concealed weapons) and was popular with the common class during the Edo period.

The Tekko waza were not formalized into a kata until this century and the origins of the techniques suggest a more plebian source.


Food for thought.

Cheers,

Mario
Nagasaki, Japan

Joe Swift
7th November 2000, 01:44
Mario-san,

Fancy meeting you here! Thanks for the call the other day.


Originally posted by Mario
There is a curious similarity between the Tekko and the Bankokuchoki of the Nagao-ryu. According the Draeger's Classical Budo (pp. 116) the Bankokuchoki was a metal ring grasped by the hand and used to deliver atemi. The Nagao-ryu specialized in Kakushi buki (concealed weapons) and was popular with the common class during the Edo period.

As you may (or may not) know, the Nagao-ryu is from my neck of the woods... and my teacher knows the person currently in charge of that particular ryuha... I'll have to see this in person for myself. Thanks for posting this little tidbit...

Mario
7th November 2000, 05:19
Joe-san:

Small world isn't it. Thanks for the info on Nagao-ryu. And yes, I and others would be very interested with whatever information you may come across.

Thanks very much in advance.

Cheers,

Mario McKenna
Nagasaki, JAPAN

Hank Irwin
10th November 2000, 20:38
I have seen Techhu and Jiffa used in KusanKu Kata and Pinan Shodan. In fact, I think you could derive many Bunkai with Techhu, Jiffa, and ChishiKunBo using a lot of techniques from all of Pinans and KusanKu Kata. More "hidden" meaning in kata?

Sensei Irwin

Doug Daulton
10th November 2000, 20:57
Originally posted by Sensei Hank Irwin
I have seen Techhu and Jiffa used in KusanKu Kata and Pinan Shodan. In fact, I think you could derive many Bunkai with Techhu, Jiffa, and ChishiKunBo using a lot of techniques from all of Pinans and KusanKu Kata. More "hidden" meaning in kata?

I've seen non-Ryukyu Kobudo people use Tekko while doing Unsu and Sanchin. In both cases, these folks were playing around, not really seriously thinking of the weapons bunkai within the katas.

In both cases, it was interesting. Particularly since some of the kakie movements seem to mesh well with the Tekko "come-alongs".

Hank Irwin
10th November 2000, 22:25
I agree whole-heartedly. One must know the fighting structure of a weapon before he/she experiments with it. I think this is pretty much the same as it had been for our predecessors. Self-preservation! I remember awhile back in N.O. in the late 70's, some friends and I stopped at a local watering hole and to our amazement watched this Knumb-skull doing Nunchaku-Kata(glow ina dark kind)on the bar top, in a diaper! Set to Disco! Harumph! The old Masters would role over in thier graves!

Sensei Hank Irwin

kusanku
11th November 2000, 08:24
The Old Masters like Motobu and Kyan used to hang out at the Red Light District in Tsuji, Naha, in the Bars and Houses of Ill Repute, and before the post WWII period, many Okinawans used to wear a Diaper when practicing Karate.

The Old Masters would have felt right at home.:D

Kusanku

Hank Irwin
11th November 2000, 14:53
KusanKu, you crazy guy! Think I'll go see if I can find some cock fights around Atlanta! Bo De O Do!

Sensei Hank Irwin

kusanku
11th November 2000, 18:18
Sensei Hank says:'Kusanku you crazy guy!'

Yep, tha's me all right!

'Think I'll see if I can find some cock fights around Atlanta!'

You probably can if you know where to look, out past the 'burbs in the countryside.Mebbe around Alpharetta.

I used to have some pictures of the Old Okinawans practicing in Diapers.Well that's what they looked like, anyway!

Remember- Karate is Serious Business!:D

Kusanku aka

Hank Irwin
11th November 2000, 21:13
Alpharetta! Right next doe'! I have a few old photos myself, that is of deshi n' diapers. At my home we train in skivies or what have you. If you wish to wear a Gi, no problem, if you don't mind getting your clean Gi filthy dirty. Lot's of old photos,and a lot of old dojo photos do not show deshi in Gi's, more like street clothes. Every photo I've seen of Choki Motobu for instance, looks like he is in his underwear. Same with most older Ueichi people also. T-shirts and shorts were always dominant in some of the dojo's during the "American Occupation". In formal presentation such as in the dojo for a function or at another Sensei's dojo I can see the need for such out of respect, but otherwise in street clothes and shoes. Little different doing toe kicks with tennis shoes on. More... real! Besides, the "Gi" looks more like what people wore as everyday clothing anyhow. Drawstring pants, Hakama top, cloth tied belt, everyday clothing. I think much more "frugal" in their approace though. Simplicity I think also played a big part.

Sensei Hank Irwin

Nezumiiro
3rd December 2000, 00:35
I hope I am not out of place asking this but... Does anyone have any pictures of Tekko? They sound like a very intresting weapon... Any help in the area of photos would be extremely appreciated.

hakutsuru
4th December 2000, 04:48
A picture of tekko can be found at the following site: http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Bench/4784/Weap.htm.

Tommy Lane

Doug Daulton
6th December 2000, 00:59
Originally posted by hakutsuru
A picture of tekko can be found at the following site: http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Bench/4784/Weap.htm.
Tommy Lane

Tommy:

Something seems to be askew with your URL. I went to Mario's site and snipped a little code ... he checks here often, so I doubt he'll mind.

<center><b><i><u><font size=+2>Weaponry of Ryukyu Kobudo</font></u></i></b><b><i><u><font size=+3></font></u></i></b>
<p><img SRC="http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Bench/4784/Weapons.JPG" height=320 width=440>
<p><b><i>1a. Eku, 1b. Rokushaku Bo, 1c. Yonshakubo, 2a. Sanbon Nunchaku,
2b. Nunchaku, 3a. Manji Sai, 3b. Sai, 4. Tonfua, 5. Suruchin, 6.
Tikko, 7. Ticchu, 8. Rochin & Tinbe</i></b><BR>Copyright Mario McKenna © 2000. All rights reserved.
</center>

hakutsuru
6th December 2000, 02:01
Sorry, I must have muffed it up when I copyied the URL. Thank's for fixing it.

I noticed that both the tekko and the ticchu are a bit larger that the ones I use. Does anyone here have any experience with these larger Tekko? Does it require any difference in handling.

Does anyone know the kanji for "Tekko"? Is "tekko" and "ticchu" different pronuciations of the same word? Wouldn't "Tekko" in Japanese be pronounced "Ticchu" in Uchinaguchi?

Tommy Lane.

Doug Daulton
6th December 2000, 03:47
Originally posted by hakutsuru ... I noticed that both the tekko and the ticchu are a bit larger that the ones I use. Does anyone here have any experience with these larger Tekko? Does it require any difference in handling. I also use the smaller tekko (sans extensions on either side). I've never used or seen these used. However, I'll drop Mario McKenna a line and ask him to comment.

Does anyone know the kanji for "Tekko"? Is "tekko" and "ticchu" different pronunciations of the same word? Wouldn't "Tekko" in Japanese be pronounced "Ticchu" in Uchinaguchi? Tekko and Ticchu are to similar but different weapons. I don't know the kanji for either. here is what I do know ...

Ticchu are not shown in the picture above. However they are a sort of "inverse" Tekko ... also similar to the Kubotan. Basically a metal or wood pipe/pole which fits inside a closed fist and extends some what out the side of the fist. From this pole, another pointed pole projects at 90 degrees through two fingers providing an atemi point which is supported by the fist. Mario McKenna wrote an excellent article "Re-examining Ryukyu Kobudo: An interview with Minowa Katsuhiko" which appeared in Journal of Asian Martial Arts (Vol. 8 No. 1. 1999) Pp. 75-91. In this article, McKenna writes about and is shown demonstrating Ticchu waza. (Pp. 82-87)

Ticchu are not part of the formal curriculum of Ryukyu Kobudo Hozon Shinkokai (Taira --> Akamine line), but are definitely practiced by students of Minowa Katsuhiko (also a student of Taira). I am not sure if they are practiced by Taira --> Inoue Motokatsu line (Ryukyu Kobujutsu Hozon Shinkokai). Again, I'll ask Mario to chime in for greater detail re: Minowa Sensei and Ticchu. Perhaps there is a member of the Inoue line who can comment further as well.

Mario
6th December 2000, 04:53
Hmm I have the kanji for Ticchu and Tikko saved as a JPEG file but I don't know how to post it onto e-budo. At any rate, Tikko and Ticchu (Tekko and Tecchu in standard Japanese respectively) are two of the hand held weapons used in Ryukyu Kobudo.

The larger Tikko appearing in the photo are Minowa sensei's design. When I asked him as to why, he simply replied that the extensions added an extra margin of safety for doing the Bo vs. Ticchu kumite set, and the added weight didn't hurt your training either. So, for kata practice we used the regular sized variety, but for the two man kumite set we used the larger version. The larger ones only call for a slight adjustment in technique when using them, more simply a matter of getting used to the larger size and additional weight. But there is no major departure in terms of technique.

As for the Ticchu it is simply a more "primitive" hand held weapon than the Tikko. With the Tikko the knuckles of the hand is enclosed (hence the use of the kanji "Kou" as in "Kani no koura" or the shell of crab) where as the Ticchu is held inside the hand (hence the use of the kanji "naka / chuu"). Both are rather nasty weapons to be on the receiving end! And I have been victim to both. As far as I know (and I stand to be corrected) out of Taira Shinken's students, only Minowa Katsuhiko and his group use the Ticchu. It was not part of the RKHSK curriculum. I do not believe it is practiced in Inoue Motokatsu's RKHSK either, but I do not know for sure.

Some branches of Matayoshi Kobudo also use the Ticchu in addition to the Chizukenbo (sp.).

Hope this helps.

Ah ha, I have figured out how to post the kanji. You can see the kanji for Tikko and Ticchu at the following site:

http://www.geocities.com/m_mckenna.geo/Tekko.html

Joe Swift
6th December 2000, 05:10
Hey Mario-san,

Glad to see you here!

Just one small point.

I have seen alternative kanji for the tekko, tecchu and techu, as follows:

http://page.freett.com/dojo/tekkou_kanji.htm

Tekko
TETSU - iron
KOU - (in this case) back of the hand

Tecchu
TETSU - iron
CHU - pillar or bar (an iron version of the Techu???)

Techu
TE - hand
CHU - pillar or bar

Mario
6th December 2000, 05:14
Thanks for the clarification Joe-san. I should have specified that the Kanji I was using were the ones currently used by my teacher Minowa Katsuhiko and like most kanji may represent "ateji" meaning a set of kanji are selected to fit a specific pronunciation.

Cheers,

Mario

Doug Daulton
6th December 2000, 07:32
Mario and Joe,

Thanks for the kanji ... I've rigged it so Mario' can be viewed directly below. Enjoy ...
<b>FROM MARIO MCKENNA</b>
<br>
<img src="http://www.geocities.com/m_mckenna.geo/Tekko1.jpg">
<br><b>FROM JOE SWIFT</b>
Sorry, Joe's server won't let me do it. :(
________________________
Doug Daulton

[Edited by Doug Daulton on 12-06-2000 at 01:38 AM]

hakutsuru
15th December 2000, 06:51
Thank you for the information.

I found anouther picture of tekko at this site:http://www.karatedo.boom.ru/weaponE.html

Tommy Lane

ScottUK
17th December 2000, 16:06
For a bit more info on Tekko, go see

http://www.rkagb.com/

then go to weapons, then to Tekko (or whatever you wish to look at)

Best Regards

Scott