Soke - headmaster

[a_adika]

Good evening,
I have a question concerning the Shinto Muso Ryu. I do not personally practice Shinto Muso Ryu, but I have always been interested in this Ryu. It is my understanding That Shimizu Sensei was the last Soke (headmaster) of the ryu and that he did not appoint a new soke. If this is correct, how does this fact affect the ryu today??? Is there still no soke??? Who gives out high rank like menkyo kaiden if there is no soke???
Thank you very much,
Alon Adika

[George Kohler]

Originally posted by a_adika
Who gives out high rank like menkyo kaiden if there is no soke???


Menkyo Kaiden holders can give out that license.

[Andy Watson]

It was my impression that actually the last true soke was Shiraishi Hanjiro who passed on responsibility of the lineage to Takayama, Shimizu and Otofuji.

Soke's seem to be a dissappearing race with groups of menkyo kaiden holders being the directors of a ryuha.

[Diane Skoss]

Dear Alon,

Your information is incorrect. Shimizu Takaji Sensei was never soke of Shinto Muso-ryu. In fact, there are some who believe that we've never had a soke per se. Instead, there was a senior shihan (menkyo kaiden) who more or less functioned as a soke, and they were sometimes referred to by others as soke, but in fact, Shimizu Sensei was the senior living menkyo kaiden. There are now a number of different menkyo kaiden, who were trained up by various different people, and I believe there simply was no clear single senior successor. Now there are several lines (mostly doing the same art and techniques, I might add) of closely related menkyo who more or less work together. But, again, it is all the same ryu and the same techniques, and this in fact, has pretty much been the way it has always been in Shinto Muso-ryu except for the fact that there is no single leader at the moment.

As George said, any menkyo kaiden can license people up to menkyo kaiden.

Hope this helps.

Diane Skoss

[R A Sosnowski]

Originally posted by Diane Skoss

Your information is incorrect. Shimizu Takaji Sensei was never soke of Shinto Muso-ryu. In fact, there are some who believe that we've never had a soke per se. Instead, there was a senior shihan (menkyo kaiden) who more or less functioned as a soke, and they were sometimes referred to by others as soke, but in fact, Shimizu Sensei was the senior living menkyo kaiden. There are now a number of different menkyo kaiden, who were trained up by various different people, and I believe there simply was no clear single senior successor. Now there are several lines (mostly doing the same art and techniques, I might add) of closely related menkyo who more or less work together. But, again, it is all the same ryu and the same techniques, and this in fact, has pretty much been the way it has always been in Shinto Muso-ryu except for the fact that there is no single leader at the moment.


The statement that the late Shimizu-s. was not the Soke of SMR is at odds with a number of written records.

The late Donn Draeger in his Modern Bujutsu & Budo, Volume 3 of "The Martial Arts and Ways of Japan" (1974, Weatherhill, NY), clearly states
Shimizu Takaji, the twenty-fifth headmaster of the Shindo Muso Ryu (p. 70) in a list of people the Tokyo police bureau asked to help create what became Taiho-jutsu.

Pascal Krieger in his Jodo - The Way of the Stick (1989, Sophia Diffusion, S.A., Gland, Switzerland) has a photograph of the late Shimizu-s. early in his book clearly labled:
Shimizu Takaji, the 25-th headmaster of the Shindo Muso Ryu (p. 18) He reitterates this on his website, Pascal Krieger (http://www.fej.ch/anglais/epascal_p.html), saying
He [Pascal Krieger] stays there during two years during which he meets Donn F. Draeger Sensei who introduces him to Shimizu Takaji Sensei, Headmaster of Shintô Musô Ryû, in March 1969, as well as to Kuroda Ichitarô Sensei at the same period. and with a photograph of Shimizu-s. and Krieger-s. at the top of the webpage labled
Training Kenjutsu with headmaster Shinizu Sensei at the Rembukan in 1969.

Michael Finn in his Jodo - The Way of the Stick (1984, Paul H. Crompton, Ltd., London), states:
The last grandmaster of SHINDO MUSO RYU JOJUTSU was Takaji Shimizu dai sensei, when he passed on some ten years ago [1978], he did not designate another grandmaster. ... Twenty-five generations of grandmasters have ended in this the 20th century, it is a sad cultural loss. (p. 119)

Let's add to this mix that fact that I have heard Tsunemori Kaminoda, the private secretary of the late Shimizu-s. and one of the principle exponents of SMR in Japan today, on more than one occasion refer to his teacher as
"the 25-th headmaster of the Shindo Muso Ryu"

These statements from people directly connected to the late Shimizu-s. such as Kaminoda-s. and the late Draeger-s. are clearly at odds with the above-quoted assertion.

The literary legacy of the Skosses is legendary. Precious information has been transmitted to Westerners in English due to their efforts. If there is any time to set the record straight, it is now IMHO.

If there is evidence to the contrary, then what is it, and why wait until now to reveal it?

[Diane Skoss]

This is a case of problems in Japanese language and usage. Both Shimizu Sensei and Otofuji Sensei were referred to as "head" (to/atama) while they were alive. And Shimizu Sensei wasn't the 25th generation head, he was in fact something more like the 15th (see Matsui Kenji's research). This doesn't matter in the slightest to the Japanese, or to members of the ryu, as far as I can tell. Shinto Muso-ryu has for some time past been transmitted through its menkyo kaiden, the senior of which was, at times, recognized as the senior shihan, or "head".

To answer


If there is evidence to the contrary, then what is it, and why wait until now to reveal it?

The details of the ryu's transmission aren't really anyone's business outside of the ryu. If you have received okuiri-sho, you are a member of the ryu and are a tiny droplet of water in that transmission. Even at that, if you happen to be a non-Japanese okuiri-sho, you may not have learned all the details of Muso-ryu lineage, since the material outlining them is exclusively in Japanese, and you may well think that Shimizu Sensei was the 25th headmaster, unless someone more well-informed had told you otherwise.

It is true that Shimizu Sensei had no clear single successor in his own dojo, or in the Kanto area; and this has also been the case with Otofuji Sensei after his death in Kyushu, I believe. But, to the best of my memory, this is not a new occurrence in Shinto Muso-ryu (I don't actually have the material in front of me, so I'm going from memory at the moment). To the best of my understanding (as a licensed junior level instructor in the ryu), Muso-ryu has always passed down through menkyo kaiden--sometimes a single "head shihan" (who could be thought of as very similar to a soke) is recognized, at others the situation has been muddier (like it is at present).

Does that make things clearer? Transmissions aren't always simple, and "for the public" presentations of material relating to a specific transmission are often simplified (particularly when for a foreign audience). Yagyu Nobuharu, for example, who is soke of Shinkage-ryu (actual name of ryu referred to most frequently as Yagyu Shinkage-ryu), calls his art kendo, as opposed to the more difficult to explain hyoho (or heiho), when speaking to a general public. This sort of thing goes on all the time in Japanese--and just because something has been written down and published doesn't mean it is strictly and totally correct. It may not be wrong, but it may not accurately reflect the details of a complex situation from the point of view of a member of the ryu. That'd be my take on the situation here. There's no big secret or conspiracy of hidden information--just incredible difficulties in communications.

Hope this helps!

Diane Skoss

[Dave Lowry]

Dear Mr. Sosnowski,
I do not at all wish to sound condescending, but it is significant that each of the sources you have quoted are in English. We have all become accustomed to having a lot of information on even relatively arcane topics such as koryu available to us in that language. Sometimes so much so that we can forget just how limited they really still are. We can also overlook just how very difficult it is to translate some conventions into a language utterly foreign to their development.
Ms. Skoss is quite correct, both in her facts and in the difficulties in rendering some of these conventions coherently.
Shimizu Takaji was not a headmaster in the sense that say, Yagyu Nobuharu or Shibata Tetsuo are headmasters, respectively, of Yagyu Shinkage ryu and Kurama ryu. He was the headmaster, in a sense, of his lineage of SMR. He became that the moment the licence of menkyo kaiden was conferred upon him. Each of those students to whom he conferred the same licence became, in the same way, “headmasters” of their own lineages. That is the way authority is defined in SMR. It is not unique, but it is a little unusual.
Shimizu’s lineage was at the centre of SMR’s modern history for a variety of reasons related to his accomplishments, as I’m sure you know. He certainly represented the ryu and had a high profile in that regard. So in that sense, he was something of the “most recognised and seniormost of his generaton SMR shihan who wielded the most influence on its 20th century development and transmission.” A bit awkward, right?
No doubt the authors you cite decided it would be easier to describe him, in this regard, as a “headmaster.” And if you are a member of the ryu that descended from his authority directly, then I suppose you could think of him as your headmaster.
Take a look at the excellent translation of Kenji Matsui’s “History of Shindo Muso Ryu Jojutsu,” and you will see Shimizu is referred to consistently as a shihan, but not as a soke.
If you can read Japanese, PM me and I will give you some sources in that language that might be of assistance.

Cordially,

[Howard Thiery]

hmmm,
Just a 2 cent iteration (maybe even reiteration) but in my lurking about the various forums here it seems that there is often an attempt to take a something that has been simplified due to language or cultural translation difficulties as concrete gospel fact. It might not help anyone else but I try and keep the possibility that something has been simplified or even oversimplified in an attempt to makea comprehensable leap to a western language or culture creeping through the back of my head so as not to fall into any literalist pitfalls.
Like I said this is just my 2 cents which in this economy is worth about a hapenny.

cheers,

Howard

[Jack B]

Matsui's monograph indicates that there were often several simultaneous 'headmasters' of different branches of SMR. The count of headmasters in SMR is unrelated to the usual generational idea of lineage. While I have seen no evidence that every menkyo holder was considered a "headmaster", it is certainly true that each one is potentially a headmaster since all menkyo kaiden are nominally equal.

Shimizu sensei may have been recognized as the 25th senior shihan (aka headmaster), even by menkyo of other branches, but this does not imply that he had authority over transmission or curriculum across the ryu. Otofuji sensei started to be called the 26th headmaster at some point, but to my knowledge never had or claimed authority over the menkyo holders in Tokyo or elsewhere. Headmaster here seems to mean the defacto leader of a branch or faction rather than literal family head.

I hope this helps too.

[Andrei Arefiev]

Dear Diane, dear Mr. Lowry,

I wonder if the "History of Shindo Muso Ryu Jojutsu" by Matsui-sensei is different from the history section in his "Tenshin Shoden Shindo Muso Ryu" book? And if it is, is it available anywhere, either in translation (preferable) or in Japanese?

It seems that in the English-language literature there is little information on this kind of transmission. The best example I could remember is probably Mr. Ellis Amdur's article on Araki-ryu. Could you please elaborate on how common it is/was and what other ryuha adopted it?

Thanks for your help!

Yours sincerely,

[Diane Skoss]

It has come to my attention that there are readers of this forum who have read the assertion "Shimizu Sensei was not soke of Shinto Muso-ryu" as somehow diminishing Shimizu Sensei's importance in the world of modern jo, or as being indicative of insufficient respect. His stature is not diminished in the slightest by this statement. He just wasn't soke. He was responsible for bringing jo out of Kyushu and introducing it to the rest of Japan; he was my teacher's teacher and my husband's teacher. He is one of the revered predecessors of virtually all non-Japanese practitioners.

I find it extremely disturbing that a simple statement of fact could be interpreted as disrespect and it is part of an equally disturbing tendency I've noticed recently to try and divide Muso-ryu into opposing factions, based on which menkyo someone follows. This is pretty ludicrous. We're all doing the same art; there are differences of interpretation amongst the current menkyo kaiden (and more significant differences in personality), and I believe we can all agree that what is being done in Zen Ken seiteigata is a wee bit different than the koryu (or at least it was back when I was going in for gradings--perhaps it has become more koryu-teki in the intervening years). But an "us versus them" or "let's make some points against the other side" mentality is not very productive--and certainly has no part in a discussion of details of an apparently rather difficult-for-non-Japanese-to-understand mode of transmission.

Muso-ryu descends in menkyo lines, not in a single soke line. Some of the current menkyo get along famously, others prefer to do their own thing. This is something to which they are literally entitled. Given that the koryu in general are "one teacher" arts what difference does it make what someone else is doing? You've got your teacher--follow that teacher. What others do or say is not relevant to either your training or your relationship with your teacher.

This situation also demonstrates why mass and public communication vehicles such as this forum are really not useful for those studying the koryu. If you need to know about how Muso-ryu is transmitted, you should ask someone who is part of the transmission. If you have a technical question or insight, you should discuss it (or better yet do it) with your teacher. I know that many people object to this fact, but fact it is--koryu is transmitted directly, jikiden, from master teacher to student. No matter how many factoids you collect about a ryu, there is no substitute for year-in year-out training. If you are not training under the direction of a menkyo kaiden (and please note, I did not say "daily or weekly supervision of", though, obviously, that is the preferred state), then you are not training in Shinto Muso-ryu or participating in its transmission.

Train, then train some more, and the ambiguities will cease to be important.

Diane Skoss

[Diane Skoss]

Hi Andrei,


I wonder if the "History of Shindo Muso Ryu Jojutsu" by Matsui-sensei is different from the history section in his "Tenshin Shoden Shindo Muso Ryu" book? And if it is, is it available anywhere, either in translation (preferable) or in Japanese?

I believe they are substantially the same, but I don't have them in front of me at the moment (Meik's office is being renovated) to compare. There's no translation that I know of, but I'd be happy to learn otherwise.


It seems that in the English-language literature there is little information on this kind of transmission. The best example I could remember is probably Mr. Ellis Amdur's article on Araki-ryu. Could you please elaborate on how common it is/was and what other ryuha adopted it?

I expect you can count on Koryu Books to come out with a book on Shinto Muso-ryu in the due course of time, and it will elaborate, at least in relationship to Muso-ryu.

There are so many different permutations of transmission among ryu that I really can't comment more fully than to say that even what is frequently expressed as a simple soke-to-soke transmission is often a bit more complex, with variations and exceptions. Each ryu has its own system of transmission and licensure; each evolved to suit the needs of a specific group in a specific time and place.

Hope this helps a little.

Diane

[Scott Irey]

Originally posted by Diane Skoss
I know that many people object to this fact, but fact it is--koryu is transmitted directly, jikiden, from master teacher to student. No matter how many factoids you collect about a ryu, there is no substitute for year-in year-out training. If you are not training under the direction of a menkyo kaiden (and please note, I did not say "daily or weekly supervision of", though, obviously, that is the preferred state), then you are not training in Shinto Muso-ryu or participating in its transmission.



Thank you Diane for putting it so plainly. I know similar things regarding koryu have been written on the various forums, but I can not recall it ever being put in such simple (dare I say blunt :) ) wording.

I think I can safely say there is not a legitimate instructor of koryu out there who has done their time in Japan that would disagree with what you just wrote.

On another note tell Meik to kick Michael Paas's arse around the dojo a few times for me...then tell him to drop me and mail..if his fingers isn't breaked :)

Regards,

[Jerry O'Brien]

Originally posted by R A Sosnowski
The statement that the late Shimizu-s. was not the Soke of SMR is at odds with a number of written records.


Ray - what's up with you???:o

First you go on Kendo World and write that you got "pre-oku" certificates from Kaminoda Sensei during his visits to our training seminars sponsored by the Rembukan dojo and further that you intend to go to Japan this summer if they invite you to take an oku test???? Now this!

I don't think your references have lent your arguments much support. I think Ms. Skoss and Mr. Lowry got it right here. The truth be told is that in these matters, western sources are lacking and as Paul Harvey says "The rest of the story" can only be obtained from the source materials in the vernacular language. Even then, it all boils down to a "qualified opinion". Reading books on Jodo does not alone qualify one as an expert to make the expert assertions you've made. In another thread, you make assertions about northern and southern Jo. I know you've never been to Japan, so please explain the foundation for your statements posed on this forum?

These forums are scary places where it is hard to know sometimes who really knows versus someone who wants to know it all. We should be careful when we try to come across as having a really deep understanding of something that was perhaps a cursory understanding at most. Moreover, there are many issues such as the one discussed in this thread concerning Shimizu Sensei, that are matters internal to the ryu and are not suited for a prolonged public discussion or debate.

Regards,

Jerry O'Brien
Beikoku Rembukan

[Tom Christy]

In reference to Mrs. Skoss' post, I believe that the history section of Matsui-sensei's jodo book was translated into English and was at one time available through the International Hoplology Society. It might be worth contacting Mr. Armstrong and seeing if it is still available.

Regards,

[Brian Owens]

Just to toss in an outsider's 2 cents worth, I noticed that in the references quoted above, while the writers said that Shimizu Sensei was "headmaster" they never used the word "soke."

As I understand it, soke has a very specific meaning that implies more than just "headmaster" and, as Ms. Skoss wrote above, there are other titles for headmasters besides soke.

So I think it is safe to say that when Ms. Skoss wrote "Your information is incorrect. Shimizu Takaji Sensei was never soke of Shinto Muso-ryu. In fact, there are some who believe that we've never had a soke per se." she was undoubtedly correct.

The fact that she said "we" in reference to SMR should be a tipoff that she has some knowledge of what she speaks.

$.02 ;)

[R A Sosnowski]

Dr. O'Brien,

Thank you for taking the time out of your busy schedule to voice your concerns - they are duly noted.

I am deeply moved that, a year and a half after my voluntary departure, my best interests are still being looked after. I will be sure to note this to my Sempai and Kohai.

Cheers,

[R A Sosnowski]

Dear Ms. Skoss,


Originally posted by Diane Skoss

[SNIP]

I expect you can count on Koryu Books to come out with a book on Shinto Muso-ryu in the due course of time, and it will elaborate, at least in relationship to Muso-ryu.

[SNIP]

Hope this helps a little.

Diane

This is certainly welcome news given the dearth of material currently available in English.

If you are taking pre-orders, sign me up.

BR,

[Andrei Arefiev]

Dear Diane,


Originally posted by Diane Skoss
I expect you can count on Koryu Books to come out with a book on Shinto Muso-ryu in the due course of time, and it will elaborate, at least in relationship to Muso-ryu.


Thanks, that sounds great! I wasn't really expecting a long and detailed explanation here on the forum, but thought it'd be a good topic for a future book from you.



There are so many different permutations of transmission among ryu that I really can't comment more fully than to say that even what is frequently expressed as a simple soke-to-soke transmission is often a bit more complex, with variations and exceptions. Each ryu has its own system of transmission and licensure; each evolved to suit the needs of a specific group in a specific time and place.


That's what prompted my question in the first place. There is enough information currently available (if one looks) to see that there are too many differing systems of transmission, even when they seem superficially similar, but not enough to realize just what the differences are.

Don't take me wrong: I understand your concern (at least I'd like to think that I do) about the peculiarities of transmission and technique being a matter of concern for the ryu only, and I have no intention to learn it all by reading. But I think that a little more of more accessible information would be useful for those who come across something different than what is described in all the popular sources. I think the absence of such information is what led to all the discussions on Muso Jikiden Eishin-ryu here on E-Budo.

Anyway, I will be looking forward to your next book, whatever it covers :) I already have 3 and won't think twice about getting the next one. Also, I'm looking forward to a chance to practice with you or Meik some day (we've starting discussing it with him some time ago, but I haven't got any reply from him for close to two months already).

Yours sincerely,