View Full Version : Shito-ryu
Gene Williams
27th April 2004, 12:30
I have heard several times now that there are folks on this and other forums who are defining Shito-ryu as a "combination of Goju-ryu and Shotokan." That is incorrect. Mabuni Kenwa combined the kata and teachings of his instructors Itosu and Higaonna and used part of the kanji from each of their names to form Shito-ryu. He included 26 of the kata from those two ryu in his ryu, and later developed several of his own. He moved to Osaka in 1927 and stayed there; his popularity as a teacher caused an explosion of Shito-ryu around Osaka. Because of this, and the growth of Shito-ryu in Japan, it is now often thought of as a Japanese style. Now, there are several Shito-ryu factions that for some reason have begun including some of the JKA kata in their syllabus. Demura did this for a while. But, those kata do not belong in Shito-ryu and I do not believe they should be included. Funakoshi, another of Itosu's students, changed a lot of the Itosu kata when he went to Japan in order to please the Japanese. Most Shito-ryu frown on this. They are the same kata, in any case, with the Funakoshi versions "cleaned up" and made more linear. A lot of the Japanese sword philosophy has also slipped into Funakoshi's version of things (one overwhelming attack, direct straight ahead aggressive punches). There is nothing wrong with those concepts, in fact, I like some of them, but they aren't Shito-ryu. Shito-ryu as it is done on Okinawa and as I was taught it by old school teachers does not have that Japanese look. Anyway, just some clarification. BTW, Shito-ryu is still primarily an Okinawan style in concept and history.
Rob Alvelais
27th April 2004, 13:14
Here here, Gene!
Rob:toast:
hectokan
27th April 2004, 13:24
So your point is?????
Shito-ryu #1:kiss:
CEB
27th April 2004, 13:45
What are the 26 kata? The Shito Ryu guy in this area I think does something like 45 kata. They do Goju kata that were not taught by Higaonna so they must have came from Miyagi or somebody off that line. I have also seen a Shito Ryu person do an abridged version of Kakuho so I guessing Mr. Mabuni cataloged some Kin Gai Ryu in there also. No biggie, I'm just curious.
E Boyd
Rob Alvelais
27th April 2004, 14:32
Originally posted by CEB
What are the 26 kata? The Shito Ryu guy in this area I think does something like 45 kata.
Ed,
What do you mean, 26 kata? Shito has a bunch more. 45 is around the right number. Could you clarify?
They do Goju kata that were not taught by Higaonna so they must have came from Miyagi or somebody off that line. I have also seen a Shito Ryu person do an abridged version of Kakuho so I guessing Mr. Mabuni cataloged some Kin Gai Ryu in there also. No biggie, I'm just curious.
E Boyd
Which "goju kata", Ed? I might be able to tell you the origin. Mabuni authored some , he picked up some from other sources, and some of his students picked some up from still other sources and added them to their syllabus.
As for Kakuho, that's not one I'm familiar with and It's not on the syllabus of my org, or Kenzo Mabuni's org. AFAIK, only Gene has incorporated the teachings of the White Possum into his curriculum
Rob
Gene Williams
27th April 2004, 14:40
26 Mabuni kata: 5 Pinan, 3 Naihanchi, Bassai Dai & Sho, Seiuchin, Wanshu,Seisan, Chinto,Unsu, Rohai, Wankan, Jion, Jutte, Jiin, Kosokun Dai & Sho, Sochin, Gojushiho,Nijushiho, Chinte. He developed some of his own later.
Gene Williams
27th April 2004, 14:43
BTW, the White Possum has been away on a pilgrimage to a sesshin in the carcas of a mule in a distant farmer's field. He will return:D
Gene Williams
27th April 2004, 14:46
Originally posted by hectokan
So your point is?????
Shito-ryu #1:kiss:
My point is don't none of you jive !!! JKA types go messin' with the Shito-ryu kata. That'll get you a visit from the White Possum and can he mess up a living room carpet:D
Rob Alvelais
27th April 2004, 14:55
Originally posted by Gene Williams
26 Mabuni kata: 5 Pinan, 3 Naihanchi, Bassai Dai & Sho, Seiuchin, Wanshu,Seisan, Chinto,Unsu, Rohai, Wankan, Jion, Jutte, Jiin, Kosokun Dai & Sho, Sochin, Gojushiho,Nijushiho, Chinte. He developed some of his own later.
Some "corrections":
Unshu not Unsu. That's a real pin-headded quibble, I admit. The kanji for the two are the same, AFAIK. However, that's how the Native Japanese speakers pronounce the kata and it distinguishes it from the shotokan Unsu. Unshu as well as Sochin and Niseishi came from Arakaki according to most of the seniors.
Seienchin is a Higaonna kata and not an Itosu kata.
Wankan = Matsukaze in Shito Ryu.
No Nijushiho in Shito Ryu. It's Niseishi. As mentioned, it's an Arakaki form.
Itosu Kai has an Itosu Kei Seisan, but I'm not aware of any of the other Shito groups having that from. AFAIK it's just the Itosu Kai. I asked Demura sensei about that, and he wasn't convinced that Sakagami got the kata from Mabuni.
The Seisan that the other Shito groups (other than Itosu Kai) do is a Higaonna kata, similar to Goju's seisan. (BTW, Itosu Kai also has the Higaonna Seisan, too.)
In addition to the Matsumura Rohai, that Gene listed, there are also three "Itosu Rohai" that Itosu Sensei was credited with authoring.
Rob
Gene Williams
27th April 2004, 15:02
Hey, I didn't say Seiuchin was an Itosu kata:p No disagreements with anything else. BTW, I think JKA call it Unso...:D
Rob Alvelais
27th April 2004, 15:15
Originally posted by Gene Williams
Hey, I didn't say Seiuchin was an Itosu kata:p No disagreements with anything else. BTW, I think JKA call it Unso...:D
1K pardons, Oh Poobah of Possums.
I shall go away and practice the grappling applications contained within Sanchin. :D
Rob
CEB
27th April 2004, 21:01
Originally posted by Rob Alvelais
Ed,
What do you mean, 26 kata? Shito has a bunch more. 45 is around the right number. Could you clarify?
The number 26 came from Gene's first post and I was surprised by the lowness of the number. That is why I asked. He explained there were 26 original ones then more were added later. I'm sure you read his post.
Originally posted by Rob Alvelais
Which "goju kata", Ed? I might be able to tell you the origin. Mabuni authored some , he picked up some from other sources, and some of his students picked some up from still other sources and added them to their syllabus.
Seipai, Shisochin,Saifa,Kururunfa, Tensho etc...
The old forms that came from Higaonna include Sanchin, Seisan, Sanseiru, and Pechurin. Seiunchin I am told is very old and that may have be one of the original ones also. So it makes sense to me that Shihan Williams would list Seisan and Seiunchin as 2 of his original 26. Note that some consider it heresy to believe that not all of these kata were brought back from China by Higaonna. Either way I don't know I'm just an old Judo player.
Originally posted by Rob Alvelais
As for Kakuho, that's not one I'm familiar with and It's not on the syllabus of my org, or Kenzo Mabuni's org. AFAIK, only Gene has incorporated the teachings of the White Possum into his curriculum
Rob
I think the Shito Ryu Kakuho lookin' form was called Hakucho or something like that. The Shito Ryu presenter was a very important guy in the Hayashi-Ha tribe of Shito Ryu. ( I think that is correct but I don't much about Shito Ryu factions) It was from the movie this is Budo. Also A freind of mine learned a Shito Ryu version of Nepai from John Nanay but I think they call it Nipipo or Nipaipo (something like that) It seems to me Mr. Mabuni or someone along the line changed the names of some of the forms like Funakoshi did with Shotokan. The forms are still real close to Naha-Te counterparts nonetheless.
Everyone have a good one. I need to mow the yard now. Then go for a run. My first Triathlon is Sunday I hope I don't drown.
CEB
27th April 2004, 21:04
Originally posted by Gene Williams
26 Mabuni kata: 5 Pinan, 3 Naihanchi, Bassai Dai & Sho, Seiuchin, Wanshu,Seisan, Chinto,Unsu, Rohai, Wankan, Jion, Jutte, Jiin, Kosokun Dai & Sho, Sochin, Gojushiho,Nijushiho, Chinte. He developed some of his own later.
Thank you Mr. Williams :smilejapa
hectokan
27th April 2004, 22:04
Geeeez and I always thought Shito-ryu was developed by an old disgruntled:redhot:shotokan guy who learned a little goju.Just kidding guys!!!!!!
shows you how much I really don't know,either way....How do you say shito-ryu in spanish?
caca-ryu
PS:white possum strikes again :eek:
Gene Williams
27th April 2004, 22:28
Hey Hector, here's my new weapons kata::saw:
It ain't in the syllabus, but I like it anyway...works great against grapplers...just crank that sucker up and hold it out there:D
Gene Williams
27th April 2004, 22:42
Ed, The guy in Budo was Teruo Hayashi, who used to be in Seishin Kai but formed Hayashi Shito-ryu when Kuniba Shogo inherited the Kai from his father. Hayashi and his students are top notch Shito-ryu. BTW, he didn't do all of Hakucho on the tape.
As to original Mabuni kata. Those 26 were added to, probably by Kuniba Shogo or his father, or possibly Sakagami. I don't know, Rob might. I do know that when I began Shito-ryu in the early 70's under one of Kuniba's shihan, Kururunfa, Suparimpei, Shisochin, and Sanchin were in the syllabus. Now, some outlaw branches began running every kata they could find just to be able to say they had more kata than anyone! They'd do all the JKA kata, Oyama's kata (Sushiho, Yantsu),the kata that Kotaka developed for Kotaka-ha Shito-ryu, anything. That of course led to them making up their own and it was down hill from there. So, you ended with people saying Shito-ryu has 45 kata. That is flat wrong. I stay with the original 26 as requirements, but do Kururunfa, Suparimpei, etc. as supplementary kata. On another note, 26 kata is a load for anyone. I wish I could limit my kata to around 12 or 15, but I just don't want to let go of so many. But, even after 30 plus years in the art, I find that doing justice to 26 kata is difficult...and I train a lot. So, it is a matter of perspective...
you can train deeply or broadly, sometimes both, but everyone needs the help of a sensei or a dojo to help them keep perspective. There are ryu with only 8 or 10 kata (Uechi ryu is one, I think) but they really do them well and understand them well. I have been impressed with the "smaller" ryu...it seems they are able to maintain really high quality and standards, perhaps because they don't bite off as much.
Goju Man
28th April 2004, 15:07
Originally posted by hectokan
Geeeez and I always thought Shito-ryu was developed by an old disgruntled:redhot:shotokan guy who learned a little goju.Just kidding guys!!!!!!
shows you how much I really don't know,either way....How do you say shito-ryu in spanish?
caca-ryu
PS:white possum strikes again :eek:
So once again Hector, nothing useful to contribute eh? You'd better watch out, people get p***d off, next thing you know, there will be a knock on your door saying, "Whayers this Hactor Goomez bouy? A'm here to put a lil' cuntry ayss whoopin on da boy. Cum' ere sun!":D
Rob Alvelais
28th April 2004, 17:25
Regarding the 26, I think there were more than that, even allowing for the additions of the kata authored by Kenwa Mabuni and the ones taken from other sources (i.e., ruei ryu.)
Here's the link to Kenzo Mabuni's website's kata page. According to him, this was the syllabus his dad used at the time of his death.
Seito Shito Ryu Kata Syllabus (http://www.seitoshitoryu.com/english/kata.html)
Subtracting those kata that Kenzo Mabuni said that he recreated from his Dad's notes, I count 26 Itosu Kei kata alone!
Total 45, (subtracting Kenshu, Kempaku, Kenki and Tomari Bassai)
BTW, I asked Kenzo Mabuni about Tomari Bassai, and just cut me off and said that it wasn't part of Dad's syllabus. I'm not sure why it's listed. I do know that the Shito Kai does it.
(BTW, Ippyaku Rei Hachi = Suparinpei)
Gene's right about some of the various groups adding and making up kata and then adding those to the syllabus. "Orthodox" Shito Ryu doesn't do the Ryuei Ryu kata. That is, it's not really Shito Ryu, despite Hayashi and Kuniba adding them to the syllabus. Mabuni didn't acquire these wonderful kata, but rather Hayashi and Kuniba brought these kata into the Shito ryu world. (My hunch is that they also introduced Tomari Bassai). Hayashi and Kuniba both, (correct me here, Gene) studied with Nakaima (the late headmaster of Ryuei Ryu.) and Nagamine (Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu).
Kotaka, Sensei made up some kata and his group also does Unsu (vs. Unshu). Some of the kata he made up are pretty cool, actually, but not my cup of tea. (different strokes)
Rob
Originally posted by Gene Williams
Ed, The guy in Budo was Teruo Hayashi, who used to be in Seishin Kai but formed Hayashi Shito-ryu when Kuniba Shogo inherited the Kai from his father. Hayashi and his students are top notch Shito-ryu. BTW, he didn't do all of Hakucho on the tape.
As to original Mabuni kata. Those 26 were added to, probably by Kuniba Shogo or his father, or possibly Sakagami. I don't know, Rob might. I do know that when I began Shito-ryu in the early 70's under one of Kuniba's shihan, Kururunfa, Suparimpei, Shisochin, and Sanchin were in the syllabus. Now, some outlaw branches began running every kata they could find just to be able to say they had more kata than anyone! They'd do all the JKA kata, Oyama's kata (Sushiho, Yantsu),the kata that Kotaka developed for Kotaka-ha Shito-ryu, anything. That of course led to them making up their own and it was down hill from there. So, you ended with people saying Shito-ryu has 45 kata. That is flat wrong. I stay with the original 26 as requirements, but do Kururunfa, Suparimpei, etc. as supplementary kata. On another note, 26 kata is a load for anyone. I wish I could limit my kata to around 12 or 15, but I just don't want to let go of so many. But, even after 30 plus years in the art, I find that doing justice to 26 kata is difficult...and I train a lot. So, it is a matter of perspective...
you can train deeply or broadly, sometimes both, but everyone needs the help of a sensei or a dojo to help them keep perspective. There are ryu with only 8 or 10 kata (Uechi ryu is one, I think) but they really do them well and understand them well. I have been impressed with the "smaller" ryu...it seems they are able to maintain really high quality and standards, perhaps because they don't bite off as much.
Rob Alvelais
28th April 2004, 17:44
Originally posted by CEB
Seipai, Shisochin,Saifa,Kururunfa, Tensho etc...
The old forms that came from Higaonna include Sanchin, Seisan, Sanseiru, and Pechurin. Seiunchin I am told is very old and that may have be one of the original ones also. So it makes sense to me that Shihan Williams would list Seisan and Seiunchin as 2 of his original 26. Note that some consider it heresy to believe that not all of these kata were brought back from China by Higaonna. Either way I don't know I'm just an old Judo player.
AFAIK, these kata were always part of Mabuni's syllabus. You see, he and Miyagi were close bud's and for all intents and purposes, partners in teaching karate. One of Mabuni's books has him listed as a "Shihan of Goju Ryu". They used to cosign each other's certificates. I've recently come across a Goju instr from Mexico, whose own instructor was a *GOJU* student of Kenwa Mabuni. This particular gentleman decided to stay with Goju, while others (Tani) decided to follow Mabuni. Anyway, this Goju instr's kata are extraordinarily similar to the Shito versions.
I think the Shito Ryu Kakuho lookin' form was called Hakucho or something like that. The Shito Ryu presenter was a very important guy in the Hayashi-Ha tribe of Shito Ryu. ( I think that is correct but I don't much about Shito Ryu factions) It was from the movie this is Budo.
Gene spoke to that.
Also A freind of mine learned a Shito Ryu version of Nepai from John Nanay but I think they call it Nipipo or Nipaipo (something like that) It seems to me Mr. Mabuni or someone along the line changed the names of some of the forms like Funakoshi did with Shotokan. The forms are still real close to Naha-Te counterparts nonetheless.
Nipaipo is Mabuni's creation. It is his synthesis and distillation of what Go Ken Ki taught. In Unante, Mr. Sells says that Go ken ki didn't teach the kata the same way twice. So, that's why Nipaipo seems different from some of the Nepai forms out there.
With the Itosu kei forms, it doesn't seem that Mabuni changed much, if anything. For the most part, they're darn near identical to those practiced by Shuguro Nakazato's group.(although I think ours have mor panache) ;)
Everyone have a good one. I need to mow the yard now. Then go for a run. My first Triathlon is Sunday I hope I don't drown.
Good Luck!
Rob
Rob Alvelais
28th April 2004, 17:54
Cuidate!
No me enojes, carajo!! :nono:
Rob
Originally posted by hectokan
Geeeez and I always thought Shito-ryu was developed by an old disgruntled:redhot:shotokan guy who learned a little goju.Just kidding guys!!!!!!
shows you how much I really don't know,either way....How do you say shito-ryu in spanish?
caca-ryu
PS:white possum strikes again :eek:
Gene Williams
28th April 2004, 20:07
Well, I'll stick to 26 pending better verifiable instruction:D Hell, if you add the Shuri, Naha, and Tomari kata there aren't 45! Anyway, Sells, Bishop, and Alexander, and Nakaya all list 26 or at most 28 ORIGINAL Mabuni kata...possibly what he was teaching before he moved to Japan.
hjnorris
29th April 2004, 01:21
Sells, Bishop, and Alexander, and Nakaya all list 26 or at most 28 ORIGINAL Mabuni kata...possibly what he was teaching before he moved to Japan.
I don't know about this Nakaya fellow, but I find it hard to believe that Sells, Bishop, and Alexander were on Okinawa before Mabuni moved to Japan. :D Here possum-possum.... ;)
Henry Norris
Raleigh, NC
Gene Williams
29th April 2004, 10:47
Well, you have a point. However, there does seem to be some consensus among writers who have done some research, plus I was taught that by two Japanese instructors. Obviously more kata were added at some point, but I think he probably started with those original ones. Now, an old carcass on the porch for the possum:p
Rob Alvelais
29th April 2004, 15:09
Originally posted by Gene Williams
Well, you have a point. However, there does seem to be some consensus among writers who have done some research, plus I was taught that by two Japanese instructors. Obviously more kata were added at some point, but I think he probably started with those original ones. Now, an old carcass on the porch for the possum:p
Well, yeah. Then his friend Miyagi introduced him to Higaonna and he learned some more, to bring the total a little above 26, I'd say.
:rolleyes:
Rob
hectokan
29th April 2004, 15:39
You think the White Possum would care?.....if it was 24,45,36,29,42 or 35?:confused:
Rob Alvelais
29th April 2004, 15:44
You're right. He wouldn't be cause kata is good. No kata is bad. More kata is better.:laugh:
Originally posted by hectokan
You think the White Possum would care?.....if it was 24,45,36,29,42 or 35?:confused: :
hjnorris
29th April 2004, 16:06
Now, an old carcass on the porch for the possum
Yum, Possum Jerky! :p
Gene Williams
29th April 2004, 16:35
The White Possum will now spend some time hanging by his tail contemplating the Mabuni kata:cool:
TimoS
29th April 2004, 20:51
Something I've been wondering every once in a while and even tried searching for it on the web without any luck: how many different branches are there in Shito ryu ? It seems to be one of the most splintered styles
Gene Williams
29th April 2004, 21:07
That is a good question, although most of the major styles have split all over the place. Some of the major seniors who have taught Shito-ryu and formed branches are Mabuni(and sons), Sakagami, Kuniba, Hayashi, Tani, Kotaka and, now, Demura. Rob Alvelais keeps up with this better than I do because it all gets boring after a while.
Rob Alvelais
29th April 2004, 21:07
Originally posted by TimoS
Something I've been wondering every once in a while and even tried searching for it on the web without any luck: how many different branches are there in Shito ryu ? It seems to be one of the most splintered styles
It certainly does, doesn't it.
Kenwa Mabuni gave Shihan licenses to
Manzo Iwata (Shito Kai)
Chojiro Tani (Tani Ha)
Ryusho Sakagami (Itosu Kai)
Ryusei Tomoyori (Kenyu Ryu)
Masaru Watanabe (Seiki Kai)
Hakuryu Seiki (Hakuryu Kai)
Ken Sakio (Shito Kai)
Then you have Kenzo Mabuni, Soke, who heads Nippon Karate-do Kai Shito Ryu (His Dad's organization)
(Kenei Mabuni, Soke, is associated with the Shito Kai)
Kosei Kokuba- Seishin Kai/Motobu Ha (not given Shihan Menjo as he was more of a collegue and contemporary than a "student" of Mabuni.
Teruo Hayashi (Hayashi Ha) A student of Kokuba who formed his own, excellent branch of Shito Ryu.
That's just off of the top of my head.
Rob
Goju Man
29th April 2004, 23:35
I have seen Teruo Hayashi for some years, I like what he does.
Rob, are you of his lineage? Gene?
Rob Alvelais
30th April 2004, 01:38
Originally posted by Goju Man
I have seen Teruo Hayashi for some years, I like what he does.
Rob, are you of his lineage? Gene?
I'm the red-headed bastard child in the lineage.
My instructor used to be one of the biggies in Hayashi ha in the US. He was one of the "Triad" for a while. He and Mr. Hayashi had a parting of the ways, and formed his own organization, which is now affiliated with Kenzo Mabuni's org.
Rob
Goju Man
30th April 2004, 01:52
Originally posted by Rob Alvelais
I'm the red-headed bastard child in the lineage.
My instructor used to be one of the biggies in Hayashi ha in the US. He was one of the "Triad" for a while. He and Mr. Hayashi had a parting of the ways, and formed his own organization, which is now affiliated with Kenzo Mabuni's org.
Rob
Rob, that happens in even the best of families.:) If Shito contains both goju and shorin, which is emphasized as "style"? Goju was emphasized as the "hard" style where a lot of conditioning was necessary.
Rob Alvelais
30th April 2004, 03:07
Originally posted by Goju Man
If Shito contains both goju and shorin, which is emphasized as "style"? Goju was emphasized as the "hard" style where a lot of conditioning was necessary.
Well, from my experience I'd have to say that the emphasis is on the "Shorin" side. For the most part, people learn the Itosu kata mostly, up to Shodan. At least that's how it's been in my org, and from what I gather, in Hayashi Ha.
Rob
Goju Man
1st May 2004, 12:00
Originally posted by Rob Alvelais
Well, from my experience I'd have to say that the emphasis is on the "Shorin" side. For the most part, people learn the Itosu kata mostly, up to Shodan. At least that's how it's been in my org, and from what I gather, in Hayashi Ha.
Rob
That's funny, because everytime I've seen Teruo Hayashi on tape, he's doing something from the Goju side. That's the reason I asked.;)
Gene Williams
1st May 2004, 12:47
Hell, I've always seem him do Shuri stuff:D I am from the Tomoyori/Kuniba side of the line. I agree that there is more Shuri/Tomari emphasis in Shito-ryu than Naha. Higaonna even laughed and said, "You all do Goju kata very well...in Shito-ryu way." My problem is not doing Goju breathing in certain Shito kata which seem to cry out for it (Sochin, Gojushiho):D
Rob Alvelais
1st May 2004, 14:09
That's interesting Gene. Gojushiho and Sochin as well as Niseishi have more of a "Shuri" flavor to me. Come to think of it even Saifa has more of a shuri flavor, when compared to Seisan, say.
Rob
Gene Williams
1st May 2004, 17:36
Oh, I agree. They're Shuri all the way. But "shuri" you understand the feeling of wanting to breathe Goju-like at some points in those kata. "Shuri you understand."
"Naha, I don't."
"Well, we'll talk about it Tomari.":D
Goju Man
3rd May 2004, 19:39
Originally posted by Gene Williams
Oh, I agree. They're Shuri all the way. But "shuri" you understand the feeling of wanting to breathe Goju-like at some points in those kata. "Shuri you understand."
"Naha, I don't."
"Well, we'll talk about it Tomari.":D
Goju breathing? Other than Sanchin or Tensho? I don't believe I've seen it in Okinawa Goju, I think it's a Japanese thing. Which kata are you referring to?
Gene Williams
3rd May 2004, 20:35
Yep. Sanchin, Tensho, Seiuchin, Seisan mainly. But it appears briefly in other kata in a couple of places. Its not the really heavy breathing of Sanchin, but still a little more emphasis on the breath than in just any old Shuri kata. Some of it is probably an individual thing. I have seen Higaonna do the kata with several levels of breathing.
Originally posted by Gene Williams
Yep. Sanchin, Tensho, Seiuchin, Seisan mainly. But it appears briefly in other kata in a couple of places. Its not the really heavy breathing of Sanchin, but still a little more emphasis on the breath than in just any old Shuri kata. Some of it is probably an individual thing. I have seen Higaonna do the kata with several levels of breathing.
Breathing is everywhere. Putting out physical effort without breath is not healthy.
Yes, many levels of breathing everywhere. I read that Pechurin wasn't always the highest level kata. I believe that because I think it is a very basic form. The breathing is probably the most involved aspect. ( and the coiling stance work but you eventually getting that in other kata also.) Sanseiru is more difficult even without the mae tobi geri.
Sanchin isn't always loud. Yo-Ibuki is the loud audible breathing you are accustomed to hearing. Sanchin can be done with silent nasal breathing. I am taught to do Sanchin 3 different ways.
Then again, just an old Judo player with a little time on his hands.
Gene Williams
3rd May 2004, 22:19
Ed, I would not call Pechurin a basic kata...certainly not in concept. However, Sanseiru is a real pain in the !!!.
Goju Man
3rd May 2004, 22:27
Originally posted by Gene Williams
Ed, I would not call Pechurin a basic kata...certainly not in concept. However, Sanseiru is a real pain in the !!!.
I actually like sanseiru. I've never done pechurin long enough to get it down good. Although it is less complicated in performing than other katas.
Beauty of the form is that due to its somewhat 'simplistic' nature the kata becomes the perfect exercise for teaching very advanced concepts. Coiling and expanding stance work being one. Take those lessons you learn from Pechurin then you apply them to the other kaishu forms then ..... Oh boy, Sanseiru really starts becoming a pain in the !!! Literally.
Warning: Ed is just an old Judo player so you guys that don't know Ed just ignore this silly nonsense of his.
Goju Man
3rd May 2004, 22:53
Originally posted by CEB
Beauty of the form is that due to somewhat 'simplistic' nature the kata it becomes the perfect exercise for teaching very advanced concepts. Coiling and expanding stance work being one. Take those lessons you learn from Pechurin then you apply them to the other kaishu forms then ..... Oh boy!
Warning Ed is an old Judo player so you guys that don't know Ed just ignore this silly nonsense of his
That's deep Ed. I mean the silly nonsense part. :D
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