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Timothy.G.B.
27th April 2004, 23:32
Just curious as to what people are learning while studying their naihanchi (Shodan/Nidan/Sandan) kata? By that question I mean, what does your teacher say the kata is teaching you?

Maybe there will be some interesting discussion on this shorin kata!

Tim Black

Timothy.G.B.
27th April 2004, 23:34
Woops! I originally thought I would post the same question for Passai but changed my mind at the last minute to Naihanchi.

Sorry for any confusion!

Tim Black

Gene Williams
27th April 2004, 23:47
I don't tell my students the kata is teaching them anything. I just start doing it and tell them to copy me. They can worry about what it is teaching them after they can do it acceptably. I may even get around to showing them some bunkai...one day:D

Blackwood
28th April 2004, 03:25
Lots and lots of things. I had a 20 minute lesson on four different applications for the opening moves from a 9th Dan from Okinawa a couple years ago. Just reviewed a part of that tonight in class.

Nyuck3X
28th April 2004, 07:43
First I tell them that it's old school to learn this one first.
I may mention that it has in-fighting and grappling apps.
That's usually enough to get them interested.

I was waiting for one of my students the other day in a local
park when I became bored waiting for them. I started doing
Naihanchi Shodan on a small but steep hill going up and down.
Way different perspective. Attacks from above and below.
Has anyone else played with it in this fashion?

Just thought I'd share...

Peace

Blackwood
28th April 2004, 11:37
Haven't tried the hill, but when bored and looking for something to do, I often fall back to naihanchi. It is so adaptable and it works well in narrow places like hallways, theatre and stadium seating. I also like doing it in reverse when I'm teaching students, since it is a mirror image in two halves.

Joel Simmons
28th April 2004, 13:42
Aloha,

Ahhhh...Naihanchi katas...loved those ones. Its been years since I practiced Shorin-ryu, but I learned the Naihanchis first. Honestly, I never really saw a lot of "punching and kicking" applications coming from these katas. Once I started asking questions, I got bits and pieces of bunkai that made these katas seem more dedicated to teaching in-fighting and a bit of grappling.

On a side note...Seisan was always my favorite. Full of interesting techniques!



:cool:

Timothy.G.B.
28th April 2004, 17:29
Hi Mark:

Very cool! Just curious who the 9th Dan from Okinawa that you learned from was and what ryu-ha he was from?

Tim Black

Blackwood
28th April 2004, 20:34
Shido Kan Shorin-Ryu

Okay, here is the best way to show it:

My Sensei is Robert Menders.

Takata Sensei is one of Miyahira's students, just slightly junior to Iha Sensei, Hanshi, with whom I have had the honor of training many times. Takata Sensei was in the US for the celebration of Iha's 25th Anniversary in this country and his promotion to 10th Dan. I wish I could provide more info off the top of my head, but would have to look it up in the program guide from that trip.

http://www.ihadojo.com/Association/Lineage.jpg

Takata Sensei is second from the left, front row.
Iha Hanshi is middle front row.
To my left (Yeah, I'm the ugly guy with a mustache and Green belt (4th Kyu)) is Shiroma Sensei and then Nakasone Sensei.
The middle to my right is Meishiro Sensei.
http://home.comcast.net/~aggie80/25thGroup.jpg

Timothy.G.B.
28th April 2004, 20:45
Hi Mark:

Thanks for the picture! I am trying to learn Higa Yuchoku Sensei's line of Shorin-ryu, back through Chibana Sensei as well.

Looks like you have a great group to be training with there in Michigan!

Best,
Tim Black

Blackwood
28th April 2004, 20:52
Iha Hanshi lives in Michigan. I travel to the Hombu once a month or more to train with him and others. I feel I'm pretty lucky!

Nakasone Sensei is often here. The rest were in from Okinawa, Japan, and Guam for the seminar. Shiroma Sensei and Nakasone Sensei are always here for the National Training Seminar in July. The others I've only seen once, but expect to see several of them again this summer for the Hanshi's 73rd birthday.

Oh yeah, Mark Bishop's book has a lineage of Miyahira Sensei that includes most of the karateka pictured above.

Nyuck3X
28th April 2004, 20:54
Mark, you lucky dog you.
I met Iha sensei the spring before that celebration. He invited
me to come so I stopped by on the way to Germany to see my in-laws.
Unfortunatly because of personal problems, I had to leave the same
day and never participated. Looks like you had alot of fun!

Back to Niahanchi...

Joel, nice to see you're still hanging around.
I too learned N. Shodan first and didn't understand much of
it until later. Even today (18 years later) I am marveled
at what I can find in it. The sweeps are devastating as
kicks to the inside of the knee as well as the infighting apps.

As the kids say these days, It's PHAT!

Cheers!

Joel Simmons
29th April 2004, 02:44
Aloha Ray,

Yeah I'm still lurking around E-Budo. Every now and then I'll try and post something useful or positive.

Naihanchi is definitely one of the more interesting katas. For me, when I first learned it, I thought "what the heck is this?!" After one month of karate lessons my sensei started me on that kata and I couldn't find any connection between the kata and kihon. I almost left the dojo thinking I could find something somewhere else that made more sense. But, I'm glad I didn't. Whenever I run into another person who has studied or studies Shorin-ryu I always ask what their take on Naihanchi is. I get some interesting answers sometimes.

By the way, I think you were the person who recommended I get in touch with Pat Nakata down here. I never could get a hold of him. I visited the dojo where he supposedly trained (Japanese language school down here) and was given a phone number by a staff member. I called the number only to get a grumpy "no, nobody here. sorry, goodbye." "click!" on the other end when I asked for Mr. Pat Nakata. Oh well. I'm not sure I'd have had the time to devote to another style right now.

aloha,
Joel

Matt Wolfson
29th April 2004, 14:20
I agree with everyones statements as to the value of the set of katas. We use these kata's on a balance beam. It is one thing to have power, focus and explosiveness while doing it on the ground. It is another level all together when several feet off the ground and on a 6 to 8 inch wide plank. Nothing in the kata has changed accept for the minds perception. I have found that this type of practice brings back that "beginners mind" in where you are paying very close attention and applying oneself to the task at hand, much like a new student does when he is first learning. The beam forces you to be precise and exploding into a stance when you fear you could over step and fall off is a valuable training tool. As soon as doubt enters my mind, my concentration is broken and I faulter in my conviction. This faltering is phsyically manifested in my performance. It is plain to see by anyone watching. I am not doing a very good job of explaining the value of this. I guess it comes to down to what teacher always says. "You talk to much, the way is in experience gained through practice."
-Littlepond

Nyuck3X
30th April 2004, 01:18
Balance beam eh?
Kinda like the Plumb Flower poles they use in Kung-fu.
I have to admit, Ive played with the idea...

Timothy.G.B.
30th April 2004, 16:54
Never seen it but I have heard of it. Have you ever seen anyone do Naihanchi on plumb flower poles? That would be interesting to see!

Tim Black

Gene Williams
30th April 2004, 18:22
So, I guess if you guys are ever attacked while on a balance beam or plumb flower poles you'll be o.k.:D

RobertW
1st May 2004, 07:00
Hey Tim san.

I don't teach them anything really until around 4th kyu. I explain things here and there, and I use a couple guys in class as uke. If I am in a crappy mood I show lots. Particularly on Andrew or John. John's fun 'cause hes 9th kyu and tense like a turkey's tendon.
:laugh:

P.A.L
3rd May 2004, 00:48
Hi Mark
thanks for the chart and picture
who is the man with the glasses?
thanks.
Ali Habibi

CEB
4th May 2004, 16:11
Originally posted by Matt Wolfson
I agree with everyones statements as to the value of the set of katas. We use these kata's on a balance beam. It is one thing to have power, focus and explosiveness while doing it on the ground. It is another level all together when several feet off the ground and on a 6 to 8 inch wide plank. Nothing in the kata has changed accept for the minds perception. I have found that this type of practice brings back that "beginners mind" in where you are paying very close attention and applying oneself to the task at hand, much like a new student does when he is first learning. The beam forces you to be precise and exploding into a stance when you fear you could over step and fall off is a valuable training tool. As soon as doubt enters my mind, my concentration is broken and I faulter in my conviction. This faltering is phsyically manifested in my performance. It is plain to see by anyone watching. I am not doing a very good job of explaining the value of this. I guess it comes to down to what teacher always says. "You talk to much, the way is in experience gained through practice."
-Littlepond


No you may not have done the best job of explaining it but you came a lot closer than anyone else to touching on some of the elementary principles of the form.

Balance Beam. This can be very useful exercise. I do this. I don't have a balance beam but I have long landscape timbers behind my house near my makiwara beside the patio. Actually I'm without the makiwara, I broke it again. :(

I would disagree a little bit and to say more has changed here than just a mind's perceptions. You can do this on a timber that is laying on the ground. You are not going to fall but your foot is about 12" inches long the timber is 6-8" wide. There are element of the form you must do correctly to stay on the timber. Have your beginner level students do Naihanchi Shodan on a 2"x6" and see if they have balance problems. They may or may not.

I want to see what some of you Shorin Ryu guys think cause I'm just an old Judo player here. What is it about Naihanchi that you are really developing? Why is it you do the kata the way you do, but when you kumite with Naihanchi techniques that you 'discover' your stance are more like sanchin dachi or shizentai dachi ( whatever you kihon dachi is)? I am really surprised that nobody has touched on the mechanical principles of the exercise. It really is the kihon kata of your system and the root of most of your tanren training.

I really think most karate students concentrate to much on oyo, but I'm just an old Judo player.

Blackwood
4th May 2004, 16:32
It really is the kihon kata of your system

Well, the Kihon Katas are really the basics, but Naihanchi is the first traditional kata that we learn. One of the things the kata re-enforces is the 'eye, foot, hand' order of movement. It is effective in making one aware of the balance, as well as moving sideways, something that isn't natural to many people.

And, my enlightenment for today was this realization: One of the key parts of Naihanchi is making one aware of one's own body. The unusual stance forces one to be aware of feet, legs and knees. The defenses and attacks to the side really reinforces the working of the spine and center, while calling attention to the positioning of the shoulders.

We have one shodan who was a gymnist. She jumped up on the rail of a deck at a party and proceeded to do all three Naihanchi's, much to Sensei's concern, considering the railing was about 8 feet up in the air on one side. She had no problems! I wish I could find the pictures of it!

CEB
4th May 2004, 16:59
Originally posted by Blackwood
Well, the Kihon Katas are really the basics, but Naihanchi is the first traditional kata that we learn. One of the things the kata re-enforces is the 'eye, foot, hand' order of movement. It is effective in making one aware of the balance, as well as moving sideways, something that isn't natural to many people.

And, my enlightenment for today was this realization: One of the key parts of Naihanchi is making one aware of one's own body. The unusual stance forces one to be aware of feet, legs and knees. The defenses and attacks to the side really reinforces the working of the spine and center, while calling attention to the positioning of the shoulders.
...

I think those are some pretty good guesses. What if however those things are either ancillary in nature or not specific to Naifunchin. What would be the core principle of Naihanchi be?

Timothy.G.B.
4th May 2004, 17:09
Hi Ed:

Great questions in my opinion. Regarding sanchin stance and naihanchi, I have learned that they are related in the fact that sanchin is called, by some Okinawan teachers, ippon naihanchi dachi.

Regarding the core principles in naihanchi kata, I have been taught that one of the core reasons for training naihanchi is to train proper form for fighting in naihanchi. This sounds like circular reasoning and I'm not trying to be a smart a**, but that is one of the main reasons why we train the kata, to learn how to fight in that particular way.

Tim Black

Shorinman
4th May 2004, 19:13
Originally posted by P.A.L
Hi Mark
thanks for the chart and picture
who is the man with the glasses?
thanks.
Ali Habibi

Hi Ali,

I think Mark missed your post. I was there for Iha Sensei's 25th Anniversary and can tell you their names.

There are 2 men with glasses. The gentleman next to Mark, on Mark's left is Akiyoshi Shiroma (Iha's cousin) and the gentleman at the end on Mark's left side is Seiyu Nakamura.

That's a lot of knowledge and experience in that picture!:)

CEB
4th May 2004, 23:27
I got to go to the dojo now. Here are some thoughts I wrote up to concerning the question I posed. I was going to wait til later to post it after seeing what all you Shorin Ryu guy came up with. I never know when I will be able to login back in to this internet thing. Here it goes. Keep in mind I'm only an old Judo player.

-----------------------------------

All your Kata should teach some sort of 'fighting' waza but the thing Naihanchi does for you that NONE of your other Shorin Ryu kata will do for you is isolate your hand techniques from the rest of your body. The entire kata is done shoulders square to the front. The stance is feet straight or slightly pigeon toed, knee bent, buttock tucked. This locks your stance. Yes you perform techniques to the side in Naihanchi but when you do techniques to the side the undercarriage stays locked to the front. What this does is completely take the gamaku or koshi (hips) out of the equation. This isolates the most essential striking mechanics. If you learn to hit hard with Naihanchi you will really hit hard when you are allowed to use your body.

The balance beam thing is good because if you start getting happy hips and shoulders and start using gamaku and putting shimmy shimmy into the techniques and you throw yourself off the board. You must maintain the discipline of Naihanchi.

The bunkai I was taught for Naihanchi I learned with feet in a heel toe relationship (ie boxing stance)
not heels on the same line like in the kata. It is key that you do the kata with the heels on the same line I think because of the large variety and multiple directions of the Naihanchi hand techniques. Only by doing Naihanchi in the correct manner can you isolate the techniques.

We do the same sort of thing with Sanchin kata. When you punch in Sanchin kata the non-punching hand stays still. The hips in Sanchin stay locked through the punch. Feet and Buttock stay locked down through the punch. Punch comes to hikkite first so when it goes out you hit with your back muscles under your shoulders (lats I think they are called). Hitting with the lats makes a huge difference. Gives you more muscle to hit with and provides much better connection for power transference from the butt, hips legs, feet etc... We do a lot of other things with Sanchin. There is fast, slow, and medium speed Sanchin. There are different breathing methods, isometric exercise thingies etc... There are sets of Hojo undo exercises involving weights and Sanchin techniques etc… But all Sanchin kata does the thing I am talking about with regards to isolating the hand technique and connecting it directly to the muscles of the back.

IMO This is why the first kata taught in our respective methods at one time were Sanchin and Naihanchi. I really expected that this would be the first thing that all Shorin practitioners would point immediately to.

Gambatte Kudasai

wsteigner
4th May 2004, 23:51
I would guess Naifanchi Kata is taught so you could learn Naifanchi stance. Otsuka Hironori
founder of Wado Ryu said this about Naifanchi Stance; It is fundamental to any movement that
requires reaction;it is extremely difficult to use
and increases in difficulty with more time spent practicing it however.
thanks
bil steigner

Blackwood
5th May 2004, 03:06
I didn't miss it, just had to get out the commemorative book and look up all the pictures! Only one that I'm not sure of, but I think it is right.

Back Row: Koji Oshiro, 8th, Morinobu Maeshiro, 9th Naha, I believe this is Masanori Nakayama, 8th Fukuoka Japan, Me, Akiyoshi Shiroma, 8th Nishihara, Koichi Nakasone, 8th Naha, Minoru Makishi, 8th, Seiyu Nakamura, 8th Itoman

Front Row: Shinichi Ishimine, 9th Naha, Meiyu Takara, 9th, Seikichi Iha, 10th Lansing, Michigan, Seigi Shiroma, 9th Guam, Seikichi Higa, 9th Nishihara

Shorinman
5th May 2004, 04:35
Sorry, didn't mean to step on your toes.:D

That's Kazunori Yonamine 8th Brasil. I know Nakayama was there, just not in the picture.

Thanks,

Shorinman
5th May 2004, 05:16
Originally posted by CEB
I got to go to the dojo now. Here are some thoughts I wrote up to concerning the question I posed. I was going to wait til later to post it after seeing what all you Shorin Ryu guy came up with. I never know when I will be able to login back in to this internet thing. Here it goes. Keep in mind I'm only an old Judo player.

-----------------------------------

All your Kata should teach some sort of 'fighting' waza but the thing Naihanchi does for you that NONE of your other Shorin Ryu kata will do for you is isolate your hand techniques from the rest of your body. The entire kata is done shoulders square to the front. The stance is feet straight or slightly pigeon toed, knee bent, buttock tucked. This locks your stance. Yes you perform techniques to the side in Naihanchi but when you do techniques to the side the undercarriage stays locked to the front. What this does is completely take the gamaku or koshi (hips) out of the equation. This isolates the most essential striking mechanics. If you learn to hit hard with Naihanchi you will really hit hard when you are allowed to use your body.

The balance beam thing is good because if you start getting happy hips and shoulders and start using gamaku and putting shimmy shimmy into the techniques and you throw yourself off the board. You must maintain the discipline of Naihanchi.

The bunkai I was taught for Naihanchi I learned with feet in a heel toe relationship (ie boxing stance)
not heels on the same line like in the kata. It is key that you do the kata with the heels on the same line I think because of the large variety and multiple directions of the Naihanchi hand techniques. Only by doing Naihanchi in the correct manner can you isolate the techniques.

We do the same sort of thing with Sanchin kata. When you punch in Sanchin kata the non-punching hand stays still. The hips in Sanchin stay locked through the punch. Feet and Buttock stay locked down through the punch. Punch comes to hikkite first so when it goes out you hit with your back muscles under your shoulders (lats I think they are called). Hitting with the lats makes a huge difference. Gives you more muscle to hit with and provides much better connection for power transference from the butt, hips legs, feet etc... We do a lot of other things with Sanchin. There is fast, slow, and medium speed Sanchin. There are different breathing methods, isometric exercise thingies etc... There are sets of Hojo undo exercises involving weights and Sanchin techniques etc… But all Sanchin kata does the thing I am talking about with regards to isolating the hand technique and connecting it directly to the muscles of the back.

IMO This is why the first kata taught in our respective methods at one time were Sanchin and Naihanchi. I really expected that this would be the first thing that all Shorin practitioners would point immediately to.

Gambatte Kudasai

Thanks Ed, great stuff!

I also agree with you that it’s the only kata that isolates your hand techniques and is part of the Kihon Kata.

When we punch we use and tighten the lats too. I would think its easier to punch using the muscles of the back when doing Sanchin slow versus fast. Would that be correct to say? Keep in mind I’m only a Shorinryu guy.:D

When my instructor first started training in Okinawa in the 1960’s, on his first night, the first thing he was taught was Naihanchi Shodan; no bascis just Naihanchi #1. The first time he kicked was when he learned Pinan Shodan, after several months of doing just the 3 Naihanchins.

I would say one of the many things Naihanchi develops is the legs.

P.A.L
5th May 2004, 07:08
Hi

According to my sensei in Naihanchi we learn to re-direct the energy accumulated in abdomen toward hands since Naihanchi dachi doesn’t let it pass and waste through legs.

Ali Habibi

Blackwood
5th May 2004, 11:40
Thanks, Shorinman! I'm glad to get it corrected! I was too star struck at the time to think to write it down. I'm still wondering how many of these folks will show up this summer!

Roderick Titan
5th May 2004, 22:56
Originally posted by CEB
I want to see what some of you Shorin Ryu guys think cause I'm just an old Judo player here. What is it about Naihanchi that you are really developing? Why is it you do the kata the way you do, but when you kumite with Naihanchi techniques that you 'discover' your stance are more like sanchin dachi or shizentai dachi ( whatever you kihon dachi is)? I am really surprised that nobody has touched on the mechanical principles of the exercise. It really is the kihon kata of your system and the root of most of your tanren training.

I really think most karate students concentrate to much on oyo, but I'm just an old Judo player.

The only difference between Naihanchi Dachi (the pigeon-Toed variety) and Sanchin dachi, is the placement of the feet. There is a lead leg and rear leg in Sanchin and Naihanchi is a modified horse-riding stance. Sans ibuki breathing, shime is practiced by most good Shorin Ryu systems when training Naihanchi, and it is the Shuri Te equivalent of Sanchin, in many ways.

Naihanchi Shodan in Kobayashi Ryu is the the first real kata. In the other ryuha, it is taught at the intermediate level. The fundamentals of hip torque, rising and sinking power and tuite are seen in its practice. I feel that it is the most important kata in Shorin and related systems. It teaches the student how to generate power and efficient torque in a confined area. Lots of good throws and close striking. Good for fighting close.

The legs should be rooted, and the body pliable. The feet should push outward at the ankles and the thighs should feel like they are pulling in. What else do you need to know or want to discuss Mr. Boyd? I agree with your assertions, but I don't know about all this plumb-flower pole, balance-beam training stuff. This ain't gymnastics. It's fighting. If you do Naihanchi right, it will teach you all the balance you need.

Gene Williams
5th May 2004, 23:24
Slow down Roderick! Ed and others on this forum were practicing kata for years when you were still sucking tit. Hammer down that nail a little.

Matt Wolfson
6th May 2004, 13:33
Originally posted by Roderick Titan

The legs should be rooted, and the body pliable. The feet should push outward at the ankles and the thighs should feel like they are pulling in. What else do you need to know or want to discuss Mr. Boyd? I agree with your assertions, but I don't know about all this plumb-flower pole, balance-beam training stuff. This ain't gymnastics. It's fighting. If you do Naihanchi right, it will teach you all the balance you need.

I commend you on your use of terminology and grasp of the history and linage of these katas. I duly impressed. However, I feel you have missed the point. How did Musashi say it? "The true value of swordfencing can not be seen within the confines of swordfencing techniques." In our case it is: The true value of kata can not be seen within the confines kata techniques. I challenge you to have the openness of mind to try it before you pass judgement. Your immediate dismissal of the concept without first hand experience seems silly to me. Then again I guess it is easier to live smug in your knowledge and disregard a valuable training tool out of ignorance.
-Littlepond

Blackwood
6th May 2004, 16:16
In the other ryuha, it is taught at the intermediate level.

I'm not sure what other ryuha you are referring to, but I know we learn it even before we learn the Pinans.

Roderick Titan
7th May 2004, 01:10
Kobayashi is Shidokan and Shorinkan, right Blackwood? I did Shorinkan you do Shidokan. So it is your first real kata after the Kihon kata, just like when I was in Shorinkan. Watch that urge to jump on a perceived enemy. We ain't, and you don't know me.

GM Gene: Maybe so, maybe no. I will bow down to everyone's superior knowledge here. Just giving my stupid opinion. You don't know how old I really am.

Littlepond: I don't knock your use of Naihanchi. I'm just saying you get that same training from doing the kata the traditional way.

Oh Ed, it's with a "Y". "I" ain't him. Never even been to WV. Again for the hundredth time.

PS, this site looks hella boring in the Gendai Budo section. Bunch of journeyman posts and no decent arguments. You can't banish all the true warriors and expect to have a strong army, now can you?

:)

Blackwood
7th May 2004, 02:16
Kobayashi is Shidokan and Shorinkan, right Blackwood? I did Shorinkan you do Shidokan. So it is your first real kata after the Kihon kata, just like when I was in Shorinkan. Watch that urge to jump on a perceived enemy. We ain't, and you don't know me.

You perceived that as being jumped on? I was wondering what other ryuha you are referring to.

Never heard of Shorinkan so I had to look it up. It didn't appear as a style name in Okinawan Karate, but then neither does Shidokan. But the names, those I do know!

I am familiar with Shugoro Nakazato and Ernest Estrada, who has written a number of articles on the history. I have trained at a seminar with Robert Herten (Spelled Hurten in the Okinawan Karate). He showed us an interesting Pinan Shodan Bunkai in a kumite format to do with a single partner. I have video of him and several of his dojos doing some kata and other demonstrations.

CEB
7th May 2004, 04:19
Originally posted by Roderick Titan
...
Oh Ed, it's with a "Y". "I" ain't him. Never even been to WV. Again for the hundredth time.
....

I know, I know it was a typo, really was. You're a published co-author, but I'm may be the only guy here familiar with the particular publication. I don't know you but I know you really exist which for some reason gives me a certain comfort level in conversing with you, at least until you go crazy and start insulting our mothers in the native tongue of the Philippines. Then you go back on the ignore list.

You know if you post in Gendai they will pull that damn picture back out again. :laugh: Why in the heck would you go all the why to WV when Bastrop is a whole lot closer.

Look guys give Bryan's stuff a read. You don't have to buy into what he writes but, his teacher talks alot. I mean that in a good way. For instance, my teacher's English wasn't always so good therefore we learned everything through sweat. This was effective and I wouldn't have it any other way but I think because of this I am not good explaining why, everything is hand-on with me. Bryan's teacher talks a lot of concepts. If he keeps his ears open in class ( if he still trains) then he gets access to alot of verbal info. Take it or leave it if you want I don't care.

I bumped an old thread in this forum because I thought of an old post he made on Naihanchi. Read it then take it or leave, but its concept stuff which I personally think is more interesting to discuss than bunkai. If you learned kata the way I did then you should know the bunkai. We learned the bunkai before the kata. For instance tonight we did Saifa all night. We didn't run the kata once. But, we did 2 hours of yaksoku kumite from kata Saifa. Probably 50% of the class doesn't perform the kata yet but they were working the kumite. White belts through GoDan. When the novice students do learn the kata the pattern will be easy to learn because they will have already done most if not all the techniques.

Keep your bunkai in the dojo, you shouldn't give it away. It isn't for strangers and you are only going to learn it in a hands-on environment anyway. Thats my $.02 but I'm just an old Judo player. Good night.

Roderick Titan
7th May 2004, 05:07
You know musically inclined types are usually the smartest. You are definitely the swiftest cat on here, Ed.

Who's Bryan? Does he train with Ron Lindsey too?

Yeah, no WV for me. What has 50 eyes and 1 tooth? A room full of West Virginians! I know bad taste and joke in general. Sorry.

I like sweating too. I sweat when I train. Lindsey likes a relaxed atmosphere, but a person has to discipline himself to do things.

The laid back feel, he says it's the Okinawan way. I like to think it is his Okinawan way :).

Talking a lot? Yeah, that does happen. I go up there as often as I can. We talk, sensei and I, a LOT. He has a lot of good things and bad things to say about MAs and certain artists. I tell him about everyone on every forum who has something good or bad to say. How they are usually either geeks or bullies, no middle ground. We laugh at people a lot, and what they put credence in, who they "jock" and so on. How often they claim to have used their skills in the streets. He can talk some $hit about a person for sure, but it is all truth. Then he'll make me do Gojushiho another 10-20 times. Other than talk he can do. He'll do you wrong if you wanna test him. He'll let you feel him. Ouch!

So Naihanchi Shodan is THE kata for Shorin in his opinion. I tend to agree now that I've been doing these kata for over 2 decades.

MAs and me are inseparable. Yeah, when most folks were playing doctor with the molested girl next door, I was learning to throw an uppercut or execute a hip throw.

I love that picture of that Brian guy btw. I gave my sensei grief for that whole WV seminar. I also told him what folks on here said. He was puzzled as he's never heard of these SFA guys or Gene Williams but he does remember their names, and asks me if I they are bothered by this Bryan guy anymore. I tell 'em "yeah probably, but real life keeps me from that sorry-a$$ed site so I don't know for sure". It was hella funny :)!

I don't think those expletives were directed at you per se, unless you were one of the fellows goading that Bryan guy. He really is a nice person.

Magandang gabi, pare ko!

Sorry to hijack the thread. It will never happen again.

Gene Williams
7th May 2004, 11:38
Welcome back, Troof:D

Nyuck3X
8th May 2004, 05:18
The Plumb Flower Pole thing was my idea. I had just seen a
65 years old kung-fu practitioner do single leg squats on one.
When we were spit balling I thought of it and threw it into
the mix. I thought we were just throwing in ideas and validating
or disqualifying them. It's typical thinking in engineering.
That's my background.

Since being gifted with a child with an autistic like disorder
and now that I'm forced to go back to school and am studying
kinesiology I've learned that there are different learning styles
and sometimes teachers need to find other ways of teaching to
convey the same messege. The old traditional way that the
Okinawans taught lends it's self well for this. The teacher was
more hands on and able to adapt his teachings per student. The
modern military way presumes that everyone is of equal ability
and does not allow for personal adaptation.

I was just trying to give options to those who might find another
perspective useful.

The development of punching power by eliminating forward movement
first by teaching Naihanchi makes alot of sense. Rotational torque
verses compression. Compression as I learned it seems to work better
with forward movement and a rear foot to push off of. In a tight
space, rotation is easier to generate.
Thanks Mr. Boyd.

Mr. Swarthout.
When I was studying Matsubayashi, they taught the Naihanchi as
intermediate level like Shotokan does. First the Pinans, then the
Naihanchi. My first kata (outside of the kihons) was Naihanchi.
One friggin year! My teacher was old school. He only gave me one
kata per year.

Happy Mother's day!

Peace

RobertW
10th May 2004, 02:27
:rolleyes:

CEB
10th May 2004, 03:54
Soken Hohan, 1972
The practice of the hakutsuru form forced me to learn better balance by performing the techniques while balanced on a pine log. Initially I learned the form on the ground and then I had to perform it on a log laying on the ground. For the advanced training the log was put into the river and tied down so as not to float away. I was then instructed to perform the kata while balanced on the log. It was very difficult and I almost drowned several times by falling and bouncing my head off the log.

CEB
10th May 2004, 14:38
My bad. I should have looked it up before I typed it. The above quote is from September 1978 not 1972. 1972 is when Nixon defeated McGovern.

Timothy.G.B.
19th May 2004, 06:37
Thanks to all for your informative replies to my initial post.

Best,
Tim Black