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MarkF
25th October 2000, 07:47
Since a lot of the talk today is centered around judo as a martial art or as a self-defensive way, I thought this subject might be appropriate to many who do judo, no matter the reason.

Mike Swain has started something called "New Sport Judo." Although I have yet to see it, I have seen a demontration of something called "New Match Judo" but the similarites are so close that I am thinking Mike may have been behind what I saw on TBS television, on an evening of shiai (Yes, I know. I was, either lucky in running into it, or not.:) )

Sport Judo basically is this. The match runs the time limit, the contestants do not win or lose on Ippon, no matter how good the throw or pin, choke, etc. It is strictly done on points, as 20 points for Ippon, 10 or 15 for waza-ari, etc. The supposed attraction is that Ippon does not win the match. It is supposed to be more in the direction of early shiai, where the only time a match is halted is when a competitior cannot continue.

What do you think of this, and has anyone seen enough of Mike's Sport Judo to comment or describe it better than I did? Does Mike lurk here, and if so, would you be so kind as to comment? Are there participants out there who can fill us in? If no to all, what do you think of judo, the sport?

Mark

[Edited by MarkF on 10-25-2000 at 01:50 AM]

efb8th
26th October 2000, 07:53
Hi Mark,

I have seen Mr. Swain's "New Sport Judo," and it is not terribly impressive to me. As far as the scoring goes, there is still a throwing "Ippon" but it doesn't end the match (I think it gives tori either 1,3 or 5 points). There is still submission for shime and kansetsu-waza (it's been a while, but I think these are 5 points each). But they don't end the match. The win comes into play when either time expires, or one guy piles up a substantial majority of points (the phrase "vast majority" comes to mind). And the result is that the symbolic victory "like it was something that used to be a fight" is pretty much taken out of it, and it becomes a point-fest: more along the lines of amateur boxing.

What I always liked about contest was that the symbolic "kill" or "incapacitation" mitigated by the mat or the submission, was a clear indicator of victory which, as in a real fight, could happen at any time, no matter who had been getting the best of it up to that point. Many times in my contest career, I got behind on points through koka, yuko or even waza-ari scoring, only to pull out the match with a decisive finishing technique. This was the rationale for longer matches for yudansha.

In the Air Force tournaments I used to go to, we fought 3 minutes as white belts, 5 minutes as brown belts, and ten minutes as black belts. Ikkyu could "challenge up" to black belt contest, but they had to play by the big kid's rules.

It was good training. But that's just the point. It was training. New Sport Judo is a show. It is specifically contrived to be more entertaining to an audience. This, I think, is its greatest weakness.

MarkF
26th October 2000, 09:25
Since my connection was lost just as I was about to enter it, I will make this short.

I think what is happening with this "sport judo" is fine, as long as Mike admits up front that it is a "work," or at least does so when it does, as that is its future. It is also, though, part of judo's past, as professional Judoka are traced back to just before the turn of the century, and into the fifties and early sixties; two of the better known professionals were Helio Gracie and Masahiko Kimura.

If you do some work in researching professional wrestling, you can find the histories of some great judoka, living and deceased. More than one pro wandered into our dojo in Los Angeles.

But yes, you are aboslutely one-hundred per cent correct concerning the "kill." Some thought watching two experienced and big judoka going at it, with or without time limits, was a bore, but not me. I loved watching as they carefully gripped, after an absolute war for a few minutes, and settled into a chess match, seemingly waiting for a flinch, muscle spasm, anything to give that slight edge, more often than not, leading to the kill.

I thought this thread might die just from the title, but I also was hopeful that more would look into it, even to discuss the role of the sport holding it together. While Pro Judo is hardly the way, it still must be given its due.

After all, most of us know the past was in pro judo and wrestling, and many of the greatest of judoka can be found by doing a search of pro-wrestling. It isn't a sore spot with me, anyway, so we we will see.

You English teachers have a way with words sometimes:)

Mark

efb8th
26th October 2000, 16:25
Good Morning Mark,

I am fully aware of the history of the professional side of judo, from the turn of the century London music halls, up to the great showman and wrestler "Judo" Gene LeBell (not to forget Kenji Shibuya and amazing Professor Toru Tanaka).

But the guy who started this thread called it "Judo as a Sport" not "Judo as a Spectacle." At Taihei Yukikan, we put on demonstrations all the time, but no one confused them with reality. They were choreographed to showcase certain crowd-pleasing arts, and everybody knew it. But they were in no way "contest." For there to be contest, there must be contention. Which would you rather watch, WWF or collegiate freestyle? Are they both sport?

Regards,

MarkF
28th October 2000, 10:04
I guess the guy who started the thread was out to lunch when he left the office computer on E-budo, and someone else came in and did the damage:rolleyes:

Yes, you are correct, sir, of course. My point, though, was that I never really thought about that end of it until trying to find something on a judoka who was also a pro-wrestler, judoka, and I recently got to see an article on Yukio Tani doing the stage circuit taking on all comers, usually winning with sankaku jime.

Making a living and making a spectacle sometimes go hand in hand.:)

Mark