Daito-ryu & Hakko-ryu

[seth]

i'm am trying to find an instuctor i used to have in colorado. he was a student of polumbo (sp?)shihan. his name is scott graysmith, last i heard he had moved back to chicago. i was just wondering if anyone on the list knew of him, or might know someone that would. all help would be appreciated.

[Nathan Scott]

Hello Mr. Burrows,

It looks like your not having any luck here. Why don't you try this on the Jujutsu forum. Hakko ryu considers itself a Jujutsu as opposed to Aikijujutsu, even though the founder had trained extensively in Daito ryu.

Regards,

[ghp]

Seth, try this:

http://darwin.cwru.edu/~wedig/hakkodenshin/fr_grph.htm

Menkyo Kaiden Shihan Sandai Kichu Michael J. LaMonica
Eighth Light Dojo
1177 South Hametown Road
Akron, OH 44321
Telephone: (330) 666-3081

Most of the links don't work, but this one for Hakkoryu related sites does:
http://darwin.cwru.edu/~wedig/hakkodenshin/fr_grph.htm

I've seen photos in a Japanese publication showing Mr. LaMonica at the honbu in Japan.

Regards,
Guy

[shinja]

Here's one (maybe I'm just asking really dumb questions but...)

Okuyama studied Daito Ryu and based his Hakko Ryu Jujutsu on what he learned.

What's the general opinion of those familiar with Daito Ryu and Hakko Ryu. Is Hakko Ryu considered to be aikijujutsu?

[Nathan Scott]

Hello,

This subject comes up pretty often. Your information is correct, but the simple answer is that if Okuyama Sensei considered his art to be Aikijujutsu, he would likely have called it that instead of Jujutsu.

I have seen both, and Hakko ryu is a solid form of Jujutsu. While it does seem to incorporate "aiki" as defined by arts like Aikido and Judo, it does not appear (to the best of my knowledge) to contain aiki as defined by Daito ryu.

I'd be curious to know why Okuyama Sensei chose not to emphasize the application of DR aiki in his system. There are some in DR that do not give credence to aiki as defined by others in DR, so this could be the case with Okuyama Sensei - I don't know.

Other comments welcome...

[Richard A Tolson]

Shinja,
I would for the most part agree with Nathan. Hakko-ryu (Eighth Light School) does not consider itself aikijujutsu. However, several on the techniques are movement-by-movement straight from Daito-ryu.
Okuyama Sensei took only a handful of Daito-ryu techniques to form Hakko-ryu. Many of the aiki principles, joint manipulations and pins of Daito-ryu are still in the style. However, the aiki principles but are not emphasized/over-emphasized like in some forms of Daito-ryu. Hakko-ryu was meant be be an easy to learn, effective art that emphasized showing mercy on the opponent. Control-vs-domination.

[shinja]

Thanks for the input!

I have recently started study in Hakko Ryu and based on the history was curious. I know that the Hakko Ryu people I've talked to, though obviously aware of the connection to Daito Ryu, don't really call themselves aikijujutsu. Jujutsu seems to suit them just fine.

[Richard A Tolson]

Steven,
Good luck in a great art!
Richard

[Haimeman]

hello,

I've heard of some of the students of hakko ryu, but who were some of the early students of Okuyama sensei? You
don't hear much about who they were, other than Doshin So.
Thank you.

James Feliciano

[Nathan Scott]

Hello,

This may getter better response in the Jujutsu forum, since Hakko ryu is considered Jujutsu.

I can't shift your post over, but if you'd like to open a new thread over there your welcome to.

Regards,

[Haimeman]

Hello,

Sorry about that. Have a great day.

James Feliciano

[shinja]

Nathan,

Thanks, will do.

[Nathan Scott]

No worries.

:)

[12thPowerEnergyField]

Hi there,
In a previous post, James wrote:

I've heard of some of the students of hakko ryu, but who were some of the early students of Okuyama sensei? You
don't hear much about who they were, other than Doshin So.
Thank you.

James Feliciano

James, the only other person whom I have heard of who studied under Okuyama who came to any prominence was Mr. Yokota, who later founded DaiYoshinRyu Aikido (no direct relation to Ueshiba Aikido). I believe he studied with Okuyama when he was still with the DaitoRyu organization, before he founded HakkoRyu. Perhaps someone else knows more about this?
Thanks,

Bill Rodgers

[Brently Keen]

I heard when I was in Japan that Bruce Lee had studied Hakko-ryu. Can anyone verify this?

Brently Keen

[glad2bhere]

Dear Mr. Keen:

Could you operationally define "studied". From what I can tell Bruce Lee was a big collector of Biomechanics, but was not much on dedicated study. Usually when I say that I study something it involves analysis, commentary, experimentation and consultation over an extended period of time. Does your information indicate that he was a dedicated pupil of some individual, or was Hakko-ryu just another MA that he wanted to identify to "see what its like?"

Best Wishes,
Bruce

[ghp]

Bill,


the only other person whom I have heard of who studied under Okuyama who came to any prominence was Mr. Yokota, who later founded DaiYoshinRyu Aikido

I'm sorry to tell you that "Mr. Yokota" is currently an unsubstantiated "urban legend." I was a student of Albert C. Church from 1970-73 and I know his story and claims. I'm also familiar with the person who continues to perpetrate the "myth."

I have yet to find any resource in Japan that identifies -- or has even mentioned -- "Dai Yoshin Ryu jujutsu."

If you do have Japanese sources that mention Mr. Chijiro Yokota or Dai Yoshin Ryu, I would love to include them in my library. Japanese citations would help me to validate some earlier claims -- which I'd love to do since I have a very fond memory of Church sensei.

Regards,
Guy

[12thPowerEnergyField]

In previous post, GHP wrote:

If you do have Japanese sources that mention Mr. Chijiro Yokota or Dai Yoshin Ryu, I would love to include them in my library. Japanese citations would help me to validate some earlier claims -- which I'd love to do since I have a very fond memory of Church sensei.

Regards,
Guy
__________________
Guy H. Power

Dear Guy,
Hmmm, thanks for the new info. I will now have to go out to the garage and dig up the magazine article I got my info from....
Thanks again,

Bill Rodgers

[ghp]

Bill,


I will now have to go out to the garage and dig up the magazine article I got my info from.

Nah, don't bother -- you've got it in the correct file.

Regards,
Guy

Bill,

Not intending to pile on but I have in my possession a copy of another individuals rank certificate in Dai Yoshin ryu Aikido. The kanji appearing on this supposably "registered in Japan" certificate is humorously incorrect and quite enlightening.

I'm in agreement with my friend Guy Power and think the article in question should be left where it is, if it needs to be dug up.


Toby Threadgill

[fifthchamber]

Hi all.
I recently was lucky enough to see my Sensei showing us a technique that I thought was from the Daito Ryu line or at least another of the Aikijujutsu Ryuha...The technique contained a few similarities with both Aikido and some of the Daito Ryu waza I have seen before.
I asked my Sensei which school the technique came from and was told that it was from the Hakko Ryu. I would like to know what (if any..)connections anyone knows of between the Hakko Ryu and any other Ryuha that teach Aiki based forms...I was thinking primarily Daito Ryu but it could easily be a different school..
Any help would be appreciated.
Abayo.

[yamatodamashii]

So far as I know, the founder of hakko ryu recieved his menkyo kaiden from Takeda Sokaku sensei.

[Chris Li]

Originally posted by yamatodamashii
So far as I know, the founder of hakko ryu recieved his menkyo kaiden from Takeda Sokaku sensei.

IIRC (without checking) he studied under a student of Takeda's (Matsuda). Below is a post that I made on another thread (from "Tomei na Chikara"):

-----------

Yukiyoshi Sagawa hears one day about a Daito-ryu student who's split off and calling what he does something else (Ryuho Okuyama, founder of Hakko-ryu). Sagawa and Kotaro Yoshida (IIRC) go up to Okuyama's house to "set him straight", but he's not at home so they give up and go away. A little while later Tokimune Takeda visits Sagawa and tells him that Okuyama is one of his students and asks Sagawa not to bother him!

-----------

To clarify a point, although Tokimune talks about Okuyama as his student, Sagawa later mentions Okuyama in connection with Matsuda, so it seems that what he (Tokimune) was saying was that he would accept responsibility for Okuyama.

Best,

Chris

[MarkF]

BTW: Hakko-ryu has been discussed at length on E-budo so a site search would probably yield...something.


Mark

[Brently Keen]

Ditto what Mark F. said.

Ryuho Okuyama received kyoju dairi from Sokaku Takeda not menkyo kaiden. I believe he learned primarily under Matsuda then later trained under Sokaku Takeda - at the moment, I don't recall how extensively, or how long he actually trained with Sokaku though.

I was told that he had ambitions of succeeding Sokaku, but when it became clear that that wasn't going to happen, he struck out on his own. It also seems that he may have been already sort of modifying the Daito-ryu he learned with his own ideas, when he began teaching. In this regard, it seems to me that Okuyama's own development and subsequently his new derivitive art (Hakko-ryu) may have parallelled Ueshiba's own development and derivitive art (aikido) somewhat, even if he never achieved the widespread recognition and influence that Ueshiba did.

Clearly they both took different approaches however to modernizing their primary parent art. Hakko-ryu Jujutsu emphasized self-defense and retained more of a static kata/principle based approach while incorporating shiatsu/meridian theory, while Aikido emphasized character development through the context of martial training, and (for the most part) pursued a more esoteric, yet creatively expressive approach, while incorporating many of Ueshiba's more philosophical and (Omoto Kyo) religious ideals.

To my knowledge, neither Ueshiba or Okuyama had any influence on each other though. Never-the-less, in a broader sense there are a number of similarities in their overall philosophies (imo). For example Hakko-ryu's maxim "no challenge, no resistance, no injury", and Aikido's goals of protecting of one's opponent though non-violent conflict resolution. Both schools clearly were derived from Daito-ryu Jujutsu , and their respective technical curriculums both show that influence rather obviously, despite their respective modifications and differences.

What technique was it that your teacher was showing, and what exactly was it that made you think it was "aikijujutsu" derived?

Brently Keen

[SBreheney]

FWIW, I've heard it said more than once that the Hakkoryu curriculum through yondan (indeed, self-defense and kata/principle-oriented)is derived from Daitoryu jujutsu, but that the private teachings at the shihan, menkyo kaiden and sandaikichu levels was derived (at least in part) from Daitoryu aikijujutsu. Again, without independent verification, FWIW and YMMV.

Sean.

I know two people who received advanced training at the Hakko ryu hombu dojo. At the more advanced levels the training definitely included aiki jujutsu principles albeit without the broad variety of technical execution commonly associated with Daito ryu or Yanagi ryu. Definitely an aiki lineage art that in my opinion resides somewhere between mainline aikido and Daito ryu/Yanagi ryu in tecxhnical complexity.

Toby Threadgill

[Yamantaka]

Hi!

Does anyone knows where I can find some video clips of Hakko Ryu techniques on the Web?
Thanks

[fifthchamber]

Hi Brently.
And thanks to all who have answered my question. I (unfortunately..)cannot give you the name of the waza as it is from the 3rd Dan patterns we use in the Genbukan and I am not near that level yet..However, I can describe it perhaps.
Both partners are in Seiza and facing each other. Uke places both hands on Tori's wrists (On knees) and pushes strongly down onto them.
Uke uses a type of 'Aiki' kokyu/raising movement to lift both hands up. Then takes a reverse grip on the left hand and uses a kote gaeshi type manueuver to 'throw' uke onto his back. Tori moves to face uke and raises his right hand (Open) above uke's chest.
I have practised some Aikido before ('Ki' Aiki...) and the moves seemed quite Aiki based from what I could see..The open palm also seemed like it resembled some forms used in Daito ryu patterns and the whole pattern seems based more on Aikijujutsu principles than 'basic' Jujutsu ones...
Thanks once again for all the help.
Abayo

[SBreheney]

Toby, thanks for the information!

Ben, I train in a Hakkoryu-derived art and what you described sounds a lot like what both Hakkoryu hombu and our school call "suwari aikinage" (except that we end it with an atemi to uke's tankei). And it also sounds a lot one of the Aikikai kokyu dosa exercises.

Based on those similarities and a shared Daitoryu heritage I'd be more than a little tempted to say that there must be some Daitoryu antecedent for the technique, but that's just conjecture and I defer to those more knowledgeable in Daitoryu matters.

[SBreheney]

FWIW, Shining Mountain Dojo (a Hakko Denshin Ryu dojo in Canada) used to put a clip on their website monthly, but their site seems to be down at the moment. In any event, the url is www.smdcanada.com (http://www.smdcanada.com).

[fifthchamber]

Hi all.
Again, thanks for the help...I managed to find a technique that looked very much like the one that I saw in the Palumbo books on Hakko Ryu (Nidan patterns book)..In that it is called 'Te Kagami' or 'Hand mirror' and is shown as part of the Suwari waza of the school..Although I believe that the focus in the book was more on the end lock and therefore I guessed the waza may have been shown beforehand (Perhaps the Shodan pattern or earlier?)...In the Nidan book there is little actual description of the method and the focus is on the lock but the technique seems almost exactly the same as the one I saw...
It's the closest I have actually seen myself but what's in a name?
Domo arigato all...
Abayo

[yoj]

That is indeed Tekagami (hand mirror) though I wouldn't say the focus is on the pin at the end (at least the way we do it) but instead, on the specific mechanics of balance breaking/control at the beginning. It's also kind of fun because of the particularly evil variants you can apply, especially from seiza when there are many ways to go down...

[fifthchamber]

Hi Yoj.
(By the way...You should write your name out on all posts...E-Budo rules).
Yeah....Good to see that you know what I meant. On the 'focus' bit I mean only that in the book by Dennis Palumbo 'Nidan patterns of Hakko Ryu' that is what he says should be focussed on (As a second Dan pattern). There is little information in the book on the actual lock that takes Uke down or how to raise the hands at the start. I guessed that these methods had been discussed earlier in the series (First book?) but I don't have it so can't tell....And I agree wholeheartedly about the 'Evil' qualities of the waza...It is quite amazingly painful as standard..That's without any 'messing about';)
Thanks for the answer.
Abayo

[yoj]

Hmm, sorry about the rules transgressions, i don't often post here, i'll have a look in the book tonight, as i'm curious now!

Jim Boone

[SBreheney]

Ben,

In my rush to post a reply I missed your comment re: the reverse grip on uke's hand. Yes indeed, that is what the Hakkoryu folks call "tekagami," and what in my dojo we practice as "kotegaeshi," rather than suwari aikinage as I stated earlier. But we still end the technique with an atemi to uke's tankei meridian.

While I seem to recall that Palumbo Shihan's book conveys the compression of uke's wrist joint toward the elbow (as compared with simply turning uke's wrist towards the outside), what might not be apparent is a kind of "spiralling" energy which ultimately takes control of uke's center. Lots of grist for the mill on that waza.

Sorry for the oversight.

[Ron Tisdale]

If you peruse Kondo Sensei's book on Ikkajo, I think you will recognize either the entire technique or portions of it in there. Can't remember the specific name off the top of my head though. We practised a standing version of this at the aiki-expo taught by Kondo Sensei. I've also seen variations of this technique taught in yoshinkan aikido and in a style of aikido with several different linneages.

Ron Tisdale

[yoj]

Well, in my experience there are 2 points about this technique which you won't reall pick up from the book, 1. the initial roatation (tekagami) around the elbow needs to go as far as possible, may seem obvious, but most people commonly just rotate till the arm is vertical, and you can go a few degrees beyond, which really helps. 2. The second turn to put uke's hand into the position for the throw is done by the tekagami hand, not the one that grips on, one of those 'ya need to see it!'

Also, as per fifthchambers post, book 1 shows tekagami pretty much on it's own, and 2 and 3 show it with a different finish on each. Though to be honest, even book 1 doesn't really break down the technique, and it's not a critique of Palumbo, I just don't think hakko ryu works well from a book...

My 2 penneth anyway,

Jim Boone

[Ron Tisdale]

I don't think *any* art works *well* from a book...or a video for that matter. But it does provide a reference of sorts. I have Kondo's book, but not the Hakko ryu book. Maybe I'll get lucky and get to see them both together sometime.

Ron Tisdale

[yoj]

Actually thats exactly why i bought them, to be as a reminder of what the technique was, and hopefully let me see the details as i practised them. To learn art from a book? erm no, I've used videos to remind me of long forgotten shaolin forms which i learned from a master so i guess thats ok. Kurotty would be ok from a book though! If you new how to do basics, learning a kata would be just putting the sequence together! (thats slightly tongue in cheek, and perhaps aimed at my own kurotty background?