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kroh
6th May 2004, 14:47
Hello everyone...

This is my first post on these forums so please be gentle:D

I would like to take a moment and comment on the Article entitled, "Bicycles and Budo," by Mr. Dave Lowry. First off I would like to state that I have been an avid reader of Mr. Lowry's various articles and books for many years... ( One of my first history teachers knew from my parents that I was doing martial arts and gave me the book Autumn Lightning...which I promptly devoured) and I have always found him to be informed and eloquent in his writings and musings.

I find it deplorable that many would resort to using the terms like that (koryu snob) in an open and public forum such as those on the net. Whether The koryu practitioners feel elite or not is irrelevant, I have yet to come across a kroyu practitioner slamming other martial arts in this media (web forums).

I think that one of the things that fuels these mindsets is the fact that most of the criticism is comming from an American audience. America was built on rivalry and unless we have something to strive against ...we devour ourselves. Making some one else the target of scorn takes the spotlight off of what ever the "scorner" is doing and puts it onto the "scornee." But I think that what most American's are missing is that these kroyu weren't meant for a "Mr. Miyagi-like" form of self defense...They were meant for training an elite group of society for war. Anything formulated for such activities will instill feelings of superiority and a need for accuracy. Whether that accuracy comes in the form of strict attention to detail to their training or lineage...The koryu martial artist would be one that strives to make sure that it is right.

I used to be a soldier at one time in my life. I can say this...When you walked into a room and hung out and other soldiers walked in...you paid them no mind, do to the fact that they were just like you. I had a friend while I was in, who before he was in the army, had been in the navy. One day we were hanging out in our "day room" waiting for a "dress" inspection to begin. In walks my friend wearing his dress uniform. What should happen to be on the side of his left lapell was a gold trident with an eagle sitting above it. The man had been a Navy SEAL. Not soon after, the bickering and cat calling began. He was no longer like us. He was no longer just part of the crowd...He was ELITE (imagine some dumb 20 year old with too much time on his hands to stew, saying that in childish and mocking tone). They ascribed to him modes of thinking that were in no way part of the kind of man that he was ( He probably thinks he is better than us). It was really a shame...Because those of us who did see the opportunity to listen and learn from a great man who became a good friend...learned a lot about those subjects on which he was an expert...

I guess that what I am trying to say is that I really enjoyed the Article by Mr. Lowry and I can sympathise with being attacked in that way...

And it always bring into light two quotes by two men in my life that I highly respect:

"The masses are generally wrong...because they only see what they want to ..." My teacher from a bible study course that taught it from the Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic...

"Consider the source..." My grandfather

Thanx for the minute...
WalT

Jerry Johnson
6th May 2004, 16:10
I really don't see what your point is because there are so many areas you hit on. I say this because I am going to do the worst thing anyone can do, and that is assume what your getting at.

First of all, Dave Lowery, I feel you are writing to support him, thus in agreement with his text.

Second, you are possibly admonishing those you feel are criticizing him. That Koryu folks are above criticizing others,i.e. Mr. Lowery hasn't criticized others.

Those who criticize Mr. Lowery are overly competitive/jealous and unfairly targeting him for his part in being elite circles and activities.


This has already been discussed in another thread where Mr. Lowery admonishes another.



To divert from that and still address the thread and not aim specifically toward Mr. Lowery, snobbery is the lack of humility, imo. Feeling elite usually comes from a very undesirable task, the artificial sense of achievement, or the result of a competitive situation. All of which stems from how an individual is taught to or learns to see themselves as. Both are learned behaviors, that stem from the ego, as I am told.

Humility is far a greater challenge, and more difficult to achieve, imo. A cultural trait in this day in age and in the American culture that is rarely and truly employed.


Now, as far as Koryu practitioners, it is my experience that because sword arts have become obsolete as effective combat implements, many feel to make up for this fact, and to justify what they do a sense of elite mindedness and snobby take effect. This happens also because of those who seek out Koryu arts. People, mostly men, who to gravitate toward intellectual studies. People who feel it is important to know all the details, vocabularies, nomenclature, histories etc. People who feel such knowledge is equal or more important then the actual skill. People who intellectualize Koryu in my experience feel that such knowledge makes them elite, as they have special or more knowledge the common man. Such a perspective is competitive and is fostered in American culture. We praise intellectual knowledge very highly. The more you know and the more you sound off that knowledge the higher society places you. The downside is that such people are so competitive and have the need to recognized that is annoys the hell out of the rest of us poor uneducated slobs.


I often day dream, what England would have been like with out the French, the aboriginal snob, thus the influence on American culture. I wonder if the common Samurai of any period knew as much about his weapon as some modern Koryu practitioners. And would that Samurai put as much proud emphasis on terminology which was simply common language for him. In a more relative example, would the term “butt” of a gun hold any special significance of superiority when spoken to laymen? Would it be considered special knowledge to set the expert apart from the novice, especially translated to another language and culture?


We my uncle came back from Vietnam He served two terms as a grunt, as he puts it. Not special forces, or anything else. Just a foot solider who seen allot of combat. He also was shot several times, and suffered from the effects, mentally and physically from a land mine his buddy stepped on and was killed. The first thing he did on his way home, he went to a local bar to have a drink. In that bar, he was confronted by some protesters who harassed him for being a soldier, and not being white. Needless to say he beat the crapola out of several anti-war protesters. And then apologized for his inappropriate and shameful behavior. He then had several kids, a couple of years latter, they where never allowed to play with toys that resembled weapons, or play in any manner that reflected violence or combat. He said, he had experienced enough violence in his lifetime and his children’s.

I can’t think of a more humble man. He was not proud of what he experienced, nor did he felt elite. He had no reason to be snobbish. He never bragged or mentioned his time in the marines and combat, unless asked and he always just said, he served, never mentioned the various unreward acts of valor, or the lives he saved, or took. He never used to his benefit or reputation in the things he did. He was proud that he served and that was a personal issue, not one to use as a door placard, or author notes per se.

The point is a matter of character. If you have to defend yourself from being a snob, then you have to take a look at what you are projecting to others, and how you are projecting it, and why.

I study a koryu - iaido, though I don't think of it that way. That is wrong, I don't study, I practice.
:)

nicojo
6th May 2004, 17:09
Perhaps a way to make this thread cover new ground is to think about what humility really means in a martial arts context.

Why should any expert be held to a standard of humility? They have put their time in. Still, most "experts" in any field I have read or met are intensely aware of how much more ground there is for them to cover. Shoshin.

Then there is the false humilty that shows up time and time again. It doesn't correspond to length of study, there are self-absorbed idiots at any rank. Well this is a bit muddy given the lack of time I have to give a thoughtful response, and that I am referring to both budo and non-budo experts.

kroh
6th May 2004, 18:39
Jerry:

Yes sir, you are most definately correct in saying that I am in support of the article. As for my prupose of the thread...merely to discuss the article and talk about it's target...

People who attack others for no good reason...

I would also like to agree with the very cool anology of the weapon buttstock and how a modern soldier would view the terminology of his weapon. A regular soldier would probably know the basics of the major parts of the weapon as well as terms for the rest of the equipment that he used. Specialists would be the ones that would know all the terms and their proper functions...things like the sear, retaining nobs, and gas tubes and regulators would be terms that some one with advanced training and specializations would be apt to use on a constant basis.

This relates to the Koryu in that koryu were practiced by the elite soldiers of their age and location. Foot soliders were taught to fight but had no where near the training that the samurai or other martial groups possesed. They were the grunts and thus received the apporpriate training. I would assume ( I know that is dangerous) that those practicing these complete martial systems would know the knowledge above the basics. I think that this is also a point of contention for those who would throw out the snob label...that the specialists would use proper terms all the time. From the trend seen most martial arts mags...Martial artists in America hate to seem as if they do not know something...

Nicojo:

That is a good way to take this thread. A lot of people considered experts really stay on the non braggart side of the fence for many reasons. First and formost, over-confidence and "high-mindedness" breed in sloppiness and lack of attention to detail. This is where mistakes are made. Mistakes in martial arts...we all know how that one ends up. The other thing is that an expert is on a level of skill that allows one to see a much broader picture. An expert in whatever field is looking a few more steps ahead and thus sees that reaching the peak of one hill is now able to see that theyhave only taken the first step to climbing the rest of the mountain. That can be humbling to anyone.

False humility is usually pretty easy to spot. It is usually inserted into way too much of the persons manerisms and feels forced. I have seen a few too many instructors that upon walking in refused to shake hands and started bowing and self immaciationg themselves...yuck...

ANyhoo, thank you guys very much for the replies.... and for being so kind to a first timer on these boards ( ok...before i get falsely humble...i'm outta here)

Thank you...
WalT

Ron Tisdale
6th May 2004, 21:10
self immaciationg themselves...


Uh, I think you meant self-effacing, the other would mean something like starving yourself to death...

self-ef·fac·ing (slf-fsng)
adj.
Not drawing attention to oneself; modest.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
self-ef·facement (-fsmnt) n.

Jerry Johnson
7th May 2004, 01:17
Kroh,

I am sorry if I misunderstood your post, I should have read it more carefully. I agree, with it. I don't like people attacking anyone, warrented or not, for no other reason because they can. If someone is to debate with something Mr. Lowery wrote or said, for example, it should be on equal ground that matches Mr. Lowery's knowledge. It should be done in good taste and respect. They shouldn't take pots shots just because they can and have nothing else to say or contribute.


I have been critical of Mr. Lowery's comments on a subject. I understood what he was getting at. It was his tone and presentation that I disagreed with because of his influence and status. I think people calling him a snob because they have nothing else to say, and only wish to hear themselves speak is wrong. This also goes for people doing the same thing to Mr. Martial Arts Fraud. No one regardless of their experience should be praised for such an action of snobbery.

My position as stated above, in the past, has made me a target and subject of mockery and riddicule, but I stand by it.

kroh
7th May 2004, 12:01
Hey there Jerry,

I agree with leaving the fraud alone also. Like the old quote goes... "If you have nothing nice to say..."

Many people who are frauds are exposed in time anyway because they have a need to expound on subjects that they have little or no knowledge of. Leave them alone and in time they will expose themselves. I can sympathise with the person who wants to expose such a one, trying to save people the time and agrivation (sp?) of having to find out the hard way. But to flame a person publically makes things hard on both parties.

This brings to mind the one downside to public forums...and that is that the messages stay on a given thread for a long time. And even when they no longer are recieving responses, they can be rivived. Some one looking through the old threads could revive the thread by a single post and the whole thing starts over.

In any event, I wonder how often superior skill and confidence in those skills is misconstrued as snobbish or arrogance. At the training hall I attend, once in a while we have video night. My instructor pulls out this tape he made of some of the greatest demos of skill caught on tape. When you see guys who have been studying the martial arts fiendishly for many years apply their skill, they seem so relaxed...one of the guys in our class commented once that he looked arrogant doing his stuff. I told him he just had a relaxed mental attitude and although he was working hard...he probably was simply very confident in his abilities and didn't have to strain to make it all work (Dog Brothers fight, the guy had footwork that made him a ghost...Hit and fade away). To the guy watching the film...he just seemed cocky.

Have any of you out there had your skill misconstrued as a cocky attitude? If so, how did you deal with it? Just wondering.

Thank you all again for the replies...there seems to be more intelligent conversation on this board rather than just the simple, "Yeah, well dat suked and cuz i sayd it means dat its twoo" type of post that you see on other sites. I am enjoying reading through all of the stuff that is on here . Thank you....

WalT

Jerry Johnson
11th May 2004, 19:05
Yes, I too agree frauds are exposed overtime. Problem with some frauds is like a lie, if they are around long enough they are seen as fact/legit.

Not all frauds are malicious, imo. These frauds start in a dojo as student and then teach for awhile before they realize what they have learned and taught over the years is not what it is cracked up to be. Thus, the just keep doing it, by-passing the facts. Some of these people get good at what they learned and or improve on it and make it viable. But this is hard to do with things like a sword art. A good example in my opinion is a instructor back in the 40's who seems to have plagiarized and thus fraudualized ( if there such a word ) a system he proclaimed legit. He didn't commercialize the system, that came latter with some of his students. The system is very famous now with lots of splinter groups. some of these groups and students have excelled at the art and give it viability. Despite this controversy the art contributed to the American interest in the Japanese martial arts.

IMO, most arts are suffering from white lies somewhere in their histories. The problem I have is when frauds start confusing fact with fiction. Is that when a legit art suffers from a fraudulent or fraudulent Sensei. One way is when a fraudulent Sensei is in a legit art and tweaks his or her way and claims it legit, commercially or not. Take for example, Sensei "X" claims Soke/menjo etc. to an art unrightfully. When a Sensei gets innovative and brings back an legit dinosaur art from researching through books, or limited study. A Sensei who claims he learned it from Sensei "Y" who is long dead and it would be hard to refute otherwise. Another type is the one who commercializes his Frankenstein's monster, and makes a world of non-sense claims to make it legit. I am also against naming names.


Back to snobs:

I think snobbery almost goes hand in hand with American martial artists. I personally find many Aikidoka, Kendoka/sword arts, and Bjj to be on the snobby side the most. Take Aikidoka for example, for many years hippies and yuppies took Aikido, and projected a snobbery because their art was more overtly spiritual and took longer to learn then say Karate, thus they felt superior. Now this has changed, imo, with the advent of it's parent art, but I see some snobbery on internet forums.


Those with a cocky attitude I simply give them a card that refers them to a good psychologist to work those personal issues out.
Ii don't care even if they earned that cocky attitude.

You want an example of true cocky, which very few can live up to, try Ali. Cocky, yes, for a reason. Cocky, yes, for a purpose, Cocky, yes, sophisticated and intelligent. Cocky, yes, on the outside and with humor. Most of all, merciful and humble on the inside, a man of fine character that surpassed his skill.

Ron Tisdale
11th May 2004, 19:39
Since the topic has turned to whether or not to expose frauds, I thought I might post two threads from another board which may shed some light on the issue.

Here we have a self-proclaimed soke, who doesn't (apparently) even know what the word means...and low and behold, we also have him abusing a new student. Kinda makes me go hmmmmmmm...I wonder how many students might not make the same mistake now because they've read about such antics.

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5490

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5431

Ron