My near arrest for Koryu training

[waves4ryan]

I was training Saturday morning training at Torrey Pines state beach just across from the City of Del Mar's property line. I was dressed appropriately for iai, and I tucked myself away in a little gully not to be so noticeable. I know the armed state rangers well, having worked with them for a summer, and didn't think anyone would bother me. No one was around.

Sure enough, I just completed Sekka, when I heard a vehicle coming up behind me. As I noto, the city officer's demanding that I sheath my sword and remove it. I was completely collected and respectful the entire time, and he's standing about 10 feet back. He approaches, I bow to the iaito and hand it to the officer. He tells me to step back. He examines the "blade" while I'm trying to tell him that it is not a weapon, that it's aluminum and unsharp. He doesn't care. He's hanging onto it like he's going to keep it and likely deciding if he's going to cuff me. He tells me he's not going to confiscate the blade and that he could while charging me with a felony (for training with a martial arts "weapon" in a public place).

So apparently, the call went through dispatch from a woman who was "extremely scared" about a "man with a sword on the beach" although I was in the vicinity of no one. The guy was specifically looking for me, and he wasn't open for a debate what constitutes a weapon. I wasn't sure how it was going to play out until he radioed dispatch and told them it was a guy training in a martial art at the beach, which concluded the stop. At any rate, I'll be sure to train in my tiny apartment or a "studio" and be sure to swing an aluminum bat close to small children when I'm at the beach (joking).
Ryan

[FastEd]

I have not looked into this very deeply, but for it to be a felony would it not have to involve the furtherance of civil disorder?

[renfield_kuroda]

The general public has neither the ability nor the desire to attempt to understand martial arts training, especially weapons training.

Would you practice firearms techniques on a public beach? Even if you were just using a pellet gun?

Keep the training where it belongs: in the dojo.

Regards,

r e n

[Dale Seago]

I agree with Renfield here.

Apart from that, though, while you *could* be cited for something like "disturbing the peace", here in the People's Republic of California there is no such crime (much less a felony crime) as "training with a martial arts 'weapon' in a public place" listed in the California Penile Code.

The penal code does in fact prohibit the possession on your person of *some* martial-art weapons outside the confines of a martial-art school, but a sword (even a real sword) is not one of the prohibited weapons.

That doesn't mean that a responding peace officer will either know or care about that particular nicety of the law, however, and trying to correct him on the matter is not likely to endear you to him: More likely he'll arrest you now and sort out the legal facts later.

[Hissho]

I don't work in Cali, but is there no general "possession of dangerous weapons" statute?

Or a city code for same?

[waves4ryan]

Originally posted by renfield_kuroda
The general public has neither the ability nor the desire to attempt to understand martial arts training, especially weapons training...Keep the training where it belongs: in the dojo.


I don't find your opinion harsh and respectfully agree as well. While nearly all of my training has been on the wooden floors of training halls, there was (is) a part of me that wants to practice in a real environment with sand under my feet and the feeling of uneven ground. That said, I was certainly not reckless and I sought out what I perceived as all precautions (seclusion, setting, timing, the training iaito, familiar area with the acquaintance of state law enforcement...but not the responding local authorities) So I won't be practicing Ogami Itto's "wave slashing technique" (joking).

Ryan

[Dale Seago]

Originally posted by Hissho
I don't work in Cali, but is there no general "possession of dangerous weapons" statute?

Or a city code for same?

Nope, not where State law is concerned: If it's not specifically identified and prohibited by statute, it's legal. On the other hand, that can also result in naming weapons which never existed, such as the dreaded "shobizue". :p

Cities/municipalities can enact ordinances regarding weapons (except regarding firearms) more restrictive than State law, but in practice they very seldom do so as it's just too much for municipal law enforcement to keep track of and enforce. Los Angeles is one city with blade length restrictions for knives greater than those imposed by the state, which has none except for possession at certain government buildings, political meetings/rallies, and schools. Thus, I can wear my 13.5-inch-bladed Scottish dirk legally and openly under state law (and I often do, especially when hiking in the hills and woods); but in Los Angeles I could be arrested for it -- though if I were also wearing my kilt, it probably wouldn't happen. . .

[Jerry Johnson]

The first mistake is your in California. Sorry, but it is true, as evident by your experience of a woman freaking about a man with a sword in a strange costume. Your on a public well known beach. You might as well as have done it in the middle of a parking lot of a strip mall. Or in the strip mall for that matter. Point is you can't just go anywhere to practice with a deadly weapon, even if it is Aluminum alloy sword, especially in CA. in public, and not gain neg. attention. You have to realize people are now defenseless. We as a public are not premitted to carry weapons to defend ourself. Thus, are ignorant about weapons. And for all she knew you where warming up to slice and dice on everyone in the park, John Blushi style.


I think we as martial artists know who we are, but we don't see how people see us very much. Today in this world we represent violence. Not what is was 30 years ago, when that wasn't the case, you where cool and feared (respected) if you did martial arts. People felt safe then compared to now where they feel threatened by martial artists. You can't blame them with the ultra-violence of the NHB, movies, etc. the new generations of extreme crime, and terrorism which often mentions martial arts or things related to marital arts. No longer do we live in the "Karate Kid's" Mr. Miyogi's(sp) Or "Kung Fu" of David Carridine's "Grasshopper" world of good martial arts. The public lives in Terantino's "Kill Bill vols. 1 and 2" world of martial arts violence. The public is hyper-sensitive to violence and for good reason.

I think practicing in the park isn't a good idea in the future without any prior p.r. work. As sad as that is.
:)

[Blackwood]

Okay, can someone define what a "shobi-zue" is? The only place it is mentioned online is in the California law. What do they 'think' it is?

[Fritz The Cat]

From this page: http://www.nramemberscouncils.com/SB23%20Text.shtml

"a "shobi-zue" means a staff, crutch,

stick, rod, or pole concealing a knife or blade within it which may

be exposed by a flip of the wrist or by a mechanical action."

[Blackwood]

Thank you! It amazes me that the only hits on Google are parts of the law. It appears one cannot even buy such a weapon, at least under that name.

[Dale Seago]

Originally posted by Fritz The Cat
From this page: http://www.nramemberscouncils.com/SB23%20Text.shtml

"a "shobi-zue" means a staff, crutch,

stick, rod, or pole concealing a knife or blade within it which may

be exposed by a flip of the wrist or by a mechanical action."

Right. It's a corruption of "shinobi-zue" -- just as, for instance, "nunchaku" may not appear in the statutes of some states while an identically described weapon called a "numbchuck" is listed as a prohibited item.

[Hissho]

Originally posted by Dale Seago
Right. It's a corruption of "shinobi-zue" -- just as, for instance, "nunchaku" may not appear in the statutes of some states while an identically described weapon called a "numbchuck" is listed as a prohibited item.

LOFL

In Washington ya can't carry "nun chu ka."

[Soulend]

I would have thought it a corruption of shikomi-zue, a sword cane.

[Ian McDonald]

I had a similar experience recently. Since undergoing a (very painful) divirce, I lost my dojo (wife got the building) and have been teaching outdoors in a local park. I was with my student, a strapping young fellow, half my age and twice as strong and we were practicing straight Aikido kihon waza, back and forth, left right left right, etc. Anyone seeing us could clearly see that we were not fighting but rather practicing something, even if they didn't know what it was. Well some idiots called the cops on us and three sheriff's cars rolled up and out popped these deputies, one with his hand on his gun with the holster unsnapped. They asked us why we were fighting and I told them we were only playing. They told us to stop it and leave. Well, I have an attitude problem and I had a problem with their attitudes as well. Since we were doing nothing wrong, I told them that I was not stopping, that I was not doing anything wrong or illegal, and that I was not going to leave. After telling them that they had no legal basis to harrass me or my student and that I would willingly file a complaint with the Sheriff's Department and the District Attorney as well as go to the newspaper to ridicule them for their, I called it "Barney Fife-ness," they sort of quieted down. I basically just ignored them and continued. I was not rude, but I was not particularly polite either. In fact, I was pretty sarcastic. I think they understood my position. I am not sure how it would have gone if we had been using weapons, but we had our bokken with us and they didn't seem to notice those. Real alert, Barney. My point for Ryan is this: I believe that is OK to train outdoors in full uniform, with weapons if desired, however, check local laws and rules. Some parks specifically prohibit weapons. Don't use those parks. The next time some officer tells you that what you are doing is illegal, please have him identify specifically the ordinance or law which you are supposedly violating. By asking him this, I think that you'll find that there generally is not any statutory prohibition against martial arts training in an open public space. Another point, if you and a friend had been practicing Olympic style fencing, there likely would have been no problem. I think this is a clear case of discrimination based upon nationality and stereotype. If you do it again and he arrests you, you could have a really fun, high national-profile case and probably become a millionaire off the book and movie rights if you handle it right. At least you could tell all your friends and family that you made the local six o'clock news.:cool:

[pgsmith]

Last year, our dojo held a bojutsu seminar at a local park. We reserved a pavilion in a far corner of the park, and told the parks people what we were going to be doing. We also called the local police and told them what we were doing in case they got any calls about crazies whacking each other with sticks. We had about 15 people for the seminar in full dress swinging rokushaku bo. Other than a few people that stopped to watch for a while, we had no problems.

Cheers,

[cxt]

Honestly not trying to be an arse here.

But it seems a couple of you guys are not looking at this stright.

Waves4Ryan--your dressed "funny" in that uwagi and hakama are not generally worn in this country--or in japan--espically on the beach.

Your waving around "a sword" how would a passer-by or a cop "know" either what your doing (just practicing) or if the weapon was "live???"

Looks strange--you should expect that someone is going to make a call--the way you wrote this up---you seem to have been half-way expecting it.

Ian--your aikido example--how could an onlooker "know" if you were fighting or not??

What else would it look like to somebody that does not know martial arts??)

And he calls the cops--I might well have done the same--and so might you--how would you feel if you were wrong??

What if you saw a big guy and a little guy that seemed to be "fighting" you assume its a martial arts training --walk away and somebody gets killed.

I kinda glad that somebody didn't mutter "not my business" and kept on walking.

Cops are PAID to check this stuff out.

Point is that you may well have the "right" to where a formal martial arts uniform in public--you have the "right" to do weapons practice in public--you have the "right" to practice randori, kumite etc in public.

(in most places)

That does not make it advisable or smart.

Just because there is no specific legal proabition to doing something does NOT make it a wise course of action.

Just seems that you guys are confusing "legal" with smart.

Chris Thomas

[Dale Seago]

Originally posted by Soulend
I would have thought it a corruption of shikomi-zue, a sword cane.

Given that the California statue refers solely to a concealed-blade weapon that's a reasonable assumption. Shinobi-zue, however, were historically anywhere up to, say, rokushakubo length/appearance and were used not only to conceal blades and spikes of various kinds and lengths but blinding powders and weighted-chain weapons as well.

[renfield_kuroda]

I find it ironic that there are threads on this very forum from fellow practitioners expressing shock and dismay at various government/law enforcement agencies' attempts to regulate martial arts weapons and practice.
Let me restate: the general public does not have the desire nor the capacity to understand martial arts. People do not want homeless lunatics urinating in public parks, and they do not want a guy in a skirt swinging a sword on the beach, and they do not want 2 guys in pajamas play-fighting next to their kids' playground.
It is OUR responsibility as martial artists to help society understand, or at least tolerate, our apparently violent and abberational behavior. When demoing/practicing in public, get the required permits. When approached by law-enforcement officers, do not throw attitude because you know you have a legal right to practice.
300 years ago it would have been perfectly normal to see people carrying swords, smacking each other with bokken outdoors, etc.
This day and age, it is not.

Keep the training in the dojo, keep the attitude in check.
Society lets us get on with our lives with minimal fuss as long as we pay them the same courtesy.

Regards,

r e n

[Diane Mirro]

Originally posted by pgsmith
Last year, our dojo held a bojutsu seminar at a local park. We reserved a pavilion in a far corner of the park, and told the parks people what we were going to be doing. We also called the local police and told them what we were doing in case they got any calls about crazies whacking each other with sticks. We had about 15 people for the seminar in full dress swinging rokushaku bo. Other than a few people that stopped to watch for a while, we had no problems.

Cheers,

Yes, one good thing about being here in Texas, Land of Conceal Carry and I-May-Not-Agree-With-What-You-Do-But-By-Golly-I-Will-Defend-To-The-Death-Your-Right-To-Do-It... ;)

Where else could I have walked through the main floor of a large public library barefoot, in uniform, carrying a sword and barely elicit a glance from the patrons, employees and security guards? Granted, there was a small japanese festival going on outside...

[Rob Alvelais]

You just need to train in big groups.

I've done ryukyu kobudo with a large group down there at Ski Beach. Never any problems.

We had Tateno Hanshi down for a seminar around the same time you were out terrorizing the poor people at the beach ;). We had considered going to Ski Beach, but decided to stay at the dojo on Midway dr.

Rob

[HinodeBuddha]

I am located in Nebraska and I too like to practice in an outdoor setting. I teach a weapons only class in a public park on Saturday mornings. I did however contact the parks department for permission to do so. We only use wooden weapons but have never had an occasion where we have been approached by law enforcement officials due to a concerned passer by.

[Green_Dreads]

I think it breaks down like this: 16 aikidoka doing Ikkyo in uniform on a beach in similar sync with one another, isn't going to intimidate or upset anyone. Its obviously a class. For all I'd care, they could be doing yoga.

I train with other jujutsuka on the green outside my house or around the mountains and downs in my town. We practise techniques, randori, semi-contact sparring, etc, and we've never been bothered. Its rare we've done it, but we have, and nobody has ever approached us.

As for weapons training outdoors, here in the UK you'd be arrested in seconds. Weapons simply aren't common place in the UK - not firearms, not katana, nothing of the sort. The result being that we don't have so many school shootings.

Personally, It think the answer is simple - practise in your yard if u have one, otherwise just in the dojo. If you have areas as I do where training can go uninterupted, that's ok, but otherwise be considerate. Its not ignorance - ppl are simply worried when they see ppl swinging weapons around. Perhaps, rightfully.

[MarkF]

Where else could I have walked through the main floor of a large public library barefoot, in uniform, carrying a sword and barely elicit a glance from the patrons, employees and security guards?...


Uhhh, New Mexico?


From the TV show "Cops"


..."And we want you to use your gun to defend yourself, just don't shoot at us..."--Albuquerque cops to an elderly lady who took them for potential creeps as they went through her backyard.


Mark