Shuri-ryu, solliciting comments

[Denis Torres]

I visited a dojo here in the ATL area that teaches Shuri-ryu (alongside Shintoyoshin-ryu Jiu-jitsu). The head sensei seems nice enough and has some good martial family ties. I'm considering the dojo mostly for the Jiu-jitsu but I don't mind doing the Karate alongside. Although much of my background is in Chinese arts, I did study Okinawa-Te for a couple of years back in my HS days.

I've researched the art/style and understand the basics. I detect quite a bit of Hsing-I influence. Could I impose upon the forum members to give me some of their insight into the Shuri system as it compares to some of the core systems in Okinawan Karate such as Goju, Shorin, Uechi and Isshin. Specifically what I'm looking for is an overview of the core concepts...kihon, kata, bunkai, stances, philosophy, martial application, etc. Feel free to offer any negative comments as well.

Thanks in advance.

http://www.tmacenter.com/

[Gene Williams]

Shuri ryu was the creation of Robert Trias, an American karate pioneer. His organization was USKA and he had a stable with the likes of Bill Wallace, Larry Reinhardt, Fred Wren, Tony Tulleners, Jim McClain, Bob Bowles, and a host of 60's and 70's point tournament virtuosos. Several were also good kata competitors. His ryu was rather eclectic and tended to be an ego shop for glory seekers. However, one could argue (if one wanted to) that he did a lot to promote American karate.

[CEB]

It isn't an Okinawian method if that is really important to you. Otherwise if you have observed the class and believe you would enjoy the practice they offer I would go for it.

IMO it compares closer to Japanese karate than Okinawian karate. Then again the lines blur a bit between some Japanese and Okinawian schools anymore as some try to get back to the Okinawian roots and the others branch out a bit in more competitive aspects.

If it looks fun try it.

[Bustillo, A.]

Originally posted by Gene Williams
Shuri ryu was the creation of Robert Trias, an American karate pioneer. His organization was USKA and he had a stable with the likes of Bill Wallace, Larry Reinhardt, Fred Wren, Tony Tulleners, Jim McClain, Bob Bowles, and a host of 60's and 70's point tournament virtuosos.

I don't beleive Tony Tulleners and Fred Wren were Shuri ryu. At one time or another they may have fought in USKA events but they were not from the Robert Trias camp.

[Gene Williams]

Are you sure about Wren and Tulleners? I used to see them hanging out with Trias' guys and could've sworn I saw the USKA patch on their gi. Wren and Tulleners were both really good, aggressive punchers.

[Bustillo, A.]

Originally posted by Gene Williams
Are you sure about Wren and Tulleners? I used to see them hanging out with Trias' guys and could've sworn I saw the USKA patch on their gi. Wren and Tulleners were both really good, aggressive punchers.

I remember Tulleners being a Shotokan man. Wren, I thought he was korean stylist.

[CEB]

Originally posted by Gene Williams
...I used to see them hanging out with Trias' guys and could've sworn I saw the USKA patch on their gi. ...

Yes you probably did. Just because you were USKA doesn't mean you were Shuri Ryu. Bill Wallace wasn't Shuri Ryu. James Coleman was a State Director and he was Shorin Ryu Orthodox. I know Goju Ryu men who were USKA members.

[Rob Alvelais]

Tulleners was Tak Kubota's student. Gosoku Ryu. Not one of Trias' camp.

Rob

[Denis Torres]

Fred Wren came out of the Dallas, Texas TKD influence that produced Allen Steen, Pat Burelson, Skipper Mullins and others. They are part of Jhoon Rhee's lineage who moved to Texas in 1957 to go to college. Steen was his first black belt and the rest followed. I'm sure all of the above picked up a lot in addition to their first exposure to TKD during their respective careers.

[Casper Baar]

Denis Torres,

The lineage of some groups calling themselves shindo yoshin ryu is less clear then other groups with the same name. This has been discussed on this board. If your looking for authentic old school jiujitsu please do some research. If you're not, well then don't. I'm not saying that this particular teacher/ falls in this category just that he might.
I hope you find what you're looking for.

[Denis Torres]

CB,

Thanks for the heads up. Toby T. gave me the lowdown on them last year and yes there is a lot of suspect claims and non traditional curriculum in their ranks. However good intentioned, I suspect these GA Shinto folk fall into that "psuedo Shinto" catagory. However, I'm just exploring possibilities at the moment. Thanks for your input. If you have those threads handy I'd appreciate their location and if you would like to share some more with me don't hesitate to send me a private message.

[Casper Baar]

http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=20813&highlight=shin%2A+yoshin

I hope this works. Otherwise just do a search on shintoyoshinryu in the jujitsu forum. There might be other information too.

[Richard Horrowi]

Larry Rhinehart was one of Daniel K Pais students. The Shinto Yoshin Ryu in Georgia is a group that's under Steve Roensch. Their curriculum is a fusion of Judo/Aikido and Karate.

They were once under Doug Grosse but I believe he's Retired.

RH

[Budoka 34]

Richard,

You make it sound so dirty!;)

While it may or may not be the right lineage the Shintoyoshin ryu Steven Roensch practises does not look like a "fusion of Judo/Aikido and Karate".

The lineage claimed by Mr. Grosse, true or untrue has turned into a very effective and practicle martial art, Koryu or not.;)

The Shuri ryu and Shintoyoshin ryu guys we train with are an excellent group and have turned out some of the best competitors in the USANKF (sport karate) and USJJF (sport jujitsu).

Denis, if you sign up or not, try to make the International Martial Arts Symposium in October in Columbia S.C.. You'll get to see many of these instructors in action.

:smilejapa

[Denis Torres]

Budoka 34,

Do you have any more event info on the International Martial Arts Symposium in October in Columbia S.C.? How about a website?

I would love to call you and talk more about the Shuri & Shinto please give me a number where I can call in a private message. Thanks.

[Richard Horrowi]

Mr. Kite,

I don't recall writing anything negative about the SYR system or for that matter dirty. Maybe to you Steve Roenschs system doesn't look like a Fusion, but I can assure you I'm not the only one with that opinion.

He (Steve) is also a highly ranked Karateka in Shuri Ryu. The SYR curiculum incorporated or in its infancy incorporated many strikes and kicks. I believe his "Red Sun" Exam has Kumite involved along with Kicks and Punches.

Many of the waza taught or listed in Troys manuals are Judo techniques, not Jujutsu, especially the Newaza you guys practice.

Ridgely Abele is one of the Top Karate Instructors around, and has been teaching for quite sometime. There's no doubt about the quality of Instruction in Karate and that the Jiujutsu you guys do IS effective. But in my opinion it is a combo of the above from what I've seen first hand and read.

Now if you wanna get into the nitty gritty I can go further. It would regard Uke Takeski the one who taught Mr. Grosse supposedly learned this from Otsuka of Wado. Remember Wado Ryu is Karate with Jujutsu incorporated. So..... If he claims to have learned from Takeski who was a student of Otsuka, he learned Wado Ryu.

RH

[Budoka 34]

Richard,

"I don't recall writing anything negative about the SYR system or for that matter dirty."

Very sorry if implied that you did , I ment the comment purely in jest, hence the wink.;) The idea I was attempting to weakly imply was that a fusion was dirty. My meager attempt at humor fell on its face.

I must admit the majority of my exposure to Koryu Jujitsu is limited to demonstrations and video. I have some very limited exsposure to Yagyu ryu Jiujitsu.

It is obvious that you know Troy and Kiyoshi Abele well enough.
I'm sure the newaza we do is a little different than what is illustrated in Troy's books or taught in Columbia and Florida.

I don't train directly under them. Our school has a long standing relationship with Kiyoshi Abele's school going back to his USAKF days.

I've always found the Shindo (Shinto) Yoshin ryu, Wado connection interesting, but have not had the time to research it further.
i.e What did Otsuka Sensei pass on from the ShindoYoshin ryu and what was "filled in" by Takeshi (Takeski)?

What part does Kawashi play in the original Shindo line? etc etc...

Any way hope to see you in Columbia.


:smilejapa

[Budoka 34]

Denis,

Here's the link to the info on the Symposium. It gets bigger and better every year.

http://www.shurite.com/event_International%20Martial%20Arts%20Symposium.htm

Hope to see you there.

:smilejapa

[Denis Torres]

Is there a site for Steve Roensch or a site that runs down the syllabus and/or curriculum for his Shuri/Shinto? Thanks.

[Budoka 34]

Kiyoshi Ridgley Abele of the Columbia School of Karate has a great book on the Shuri ryu system. Expensive but worth it if you collect.

And Troy Price has a series of spiral bound books on the Shintoyoshin ryu system available through Amazon.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/103-1530638-1865425

Hope this helps.

:smilejapa