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Charlie Kondek
18th May 2004, 16:58
In this thread, please engage in a dialogue with Hyakutake Colin about Hyoho Niten Ichi ryu. Thanks, Hyaku.

First off, check out: www.hyoho.com

mareo
18th May 2004, 17:31
Where is the school or dojo of Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu located?

mareo
18th May 2004, 18:57
Maybe the address where they practice in Japan?

January Ablog
18th May 2004, 20:58
Who was more dangerous in a sword fight - Miyamoto Musashi or Yagyu Munenori? Did the two ever meet? Did they know of each other?

George Kohler
18th May 2004, 21:56
mareo,

Please read the announcement called "E-Budo Rules". It says "Please sign your posts with your full name." The announcement can be found in every forum. Thank you.

hyaku
19th May 2004, 08:17
We are based down In Kyushu. We use facilities in Fukuoka, Kokura and Usa (Oita)

Some of us have our own Dojos that we use for our own and private instruction.

Membership wise if you don't practice your name comes "off" the meibo (list).

Workgroups in other countries are Canada, UK, France, Finland, Philippines, Taiwan, one person in Spain. More recently Australia and Greece, Russia are hoping to form a group.

With regard to the second question Musashi v Yagyu. Some of us try to seperate fact from fantasy.

The aims of the Ryu are to try and hold true to the teachings of Musashi and the present Soke. Also to know and respect what other Soke have taught. To try and encipher the deep meanings with Gorin no Sho that it has for us as a manual/text.

Apart from that, who fought who, who bathed and when and what they had for breakfast is all rather beyond us.

mareo
19th May 2004, 08:21
Probaly Yagyu Munenori since he is the swordsmanship instructor of Tokugawa shogunate.It would be idiotic for Musashi to challenge
Munenori because of dodge politic ground.If Munenori ever challenge
Musashi,it is best he refused the duel.

Maybe Musashi ever meet Munenori since they both lived in the same era,then againt he is only a low class samurai.

mareo
19th May 2004, 08:28
Thanks Hyaku.

meat
19th May 2004, 08:33
Hyaku sensei, could you possibly give those of us who are ignorant(I'm one of them!) a sort of brief overview of what is involved in Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu? Are there any weapons besides the sword studied? What is the basic ideology?
Many thanks

hyaku
19th May 2004, 08:51
Well most of this info is up on the site.

It mentions about Musashi's Mu and the idealogy behind it. Waza is based on Sen only. To deal with an intiated attack.

We start with Itto Seiho (one weapon) used in one or both hands. Some are fortunate enought to be considered as to have got the hang of that after a "number" of years and progress to Okuden taught behind closed doors.

This starts with Nitto Seiho (long and short weapon) Kodachi, Bo, Jujitsu and Jutte. The last three have mostly been handed down from teacher to teacher.

Charlie Kondek
19th May 2004, 14:02
I'm interested in how much study is devoted to Go Rin No Sho, and it's interesting to me that you say you are still working actively to understand it. This is something that has been discussed before.

But another thing I'd like to ask is if Musashi wrote anything else, and if it, too, is studied by students of the ryu? What about his drawings (or are they better refered to as paintings?)?

Xavi
19th May 2004, 14:53
Hello,

just two questions:

Im' from Spain and I'd like to know more about this art; can you tell me who is that guy trining in Spain? I've meet two people who claims things like that (teaching Niten Ichi Ryu)

Also I've meet in Japan a guy who is training with Morito Miyagawa sama; and says that they practice also Niten Ichi Ryu. They say they practice a different line. What do you know about that? They train in Kyoto but now they also train in Kobe.

Thanks for all.

Take care.

hyaku
19th May 2004, 15:58
Hello Charlie

Yes Dokodo seems to figure big. Imai Soke wrote a nice book on Dokodo and also put down the Itto and Nitto Seiho.

We have made quite a bit of progress to translate it. But the Seiho will take time.

Problem is everyones interpretation has some slight variation. One could then publish and find in a few years a need to redo it.

Soke is amazing and at eighty eighty still seems to find more and more deep meaning from it. He has studied Buddhism as sees a lot of simlarity.

ZealUK
19th May 2004, 17:13
Hi!

I have a couple of questions...

Firstly, I have read that Miyamoto Musashi was rather a large fellow. Do you think that the two sword techniques of Niten could be performed as effectively in combat by a person of smaller stature, or did Musashi create the techniques to take full advantage of his large size and superior strength?

Secondly, were any particular ways of wearing and drawing the shoto and daito? For example would the shoto be worn on the left or the right to facilitate drawing?

Finally, are there any books/videos available that demonstrate Niten? We do a small amount of Niten in class every so often, and I would love to learn more about it.

Many Thanks!

(This is my first post so please be gentle :D )

hyaku
19th May 2004, 17:24
Hello Xavi

Good question. I will try to cover it in detail.

But for obvious reasons I don't want to go too public with the politics of the ryu and as to who is who. That's for us to know.

There have obviously been people trying to branch off in the past in many ryu, and I'm sure it will happen in the future. It's a never ending tangled web of the most excellent students and family members wanting to be head because daddy was etc.

All in all "branch off" is one way of putting it. But these people actually calling themselves "A Branch" would not be always acurate.

More like a leaf. We do have aword for it in Japan. Kareha (Borrowed leaf)

But its a democracy here. Some people don't like it but there is little one can do if someone decides to "set up shop". Some ryu have successfuly overcome things.

All I can suggest is if you find yourself in a position of having to choose you should sleep on it for more than one night.

Frankly I am rather disappointed that so many people want to be Chiefs and not Indians. Problem is they move on when they are still Indians but to outsiders it "looks" like they have become a Chief

What I can tell you is like other ryu, various certification is given by different headmasters over the generations. Some of this is Meiyo. Recognition on an honorary basis having taught part or in some cases "none" of the teachings. Don't ask me why they do this. Sometimes its quite beyond Japanese comprehension too. What can I say. Japanese like giving certificates?

But nowadays there is somebody else that figures in all this. The Association. Upside is a recognised association will only recognise one head. Downside is of course you can have more than one association. In fact some will actually form an association to go with the ryu and willingly invite along a few more ryu for good measure. Then you will see a few more branches as members seek to leave their own teachers and do their own association thing.
So back to us:

We have and will have one Soke recognized by the Nippon Budokan and Nihon Kobudo Kyokai. That's the way they want it. That's the way we want it too. I know the present Soke only taught "everything" he knows to one other person.

Yes there are other people that profess to be perhaps another branch. Are we bothered? Not in the least.

Yes I have heard of Miyakawa Sensei. He was a student of the late Aoki Soke.

Aoki Soke taught here in Japan. Went to live in Taiwan and taught there for some time. He came back because of WW2. The Jisso Enman no Bokuto (Musashi's bokuto) was left there, then returned much later.He then taught here in Japan in yet another place. He was also Soke of the Sekiguchi Ryu. He actually lost his job after the war for teaching Kenjutsu at high school.

Aoki Sensei taught a lot of people in a lot of places. But his final wishes were that Kiyonaga should follow him. He received the Bokuto and Makimono.

The Jisso Enman no Bokuto is a National Treasure. It is now held in safe keeping by Usa Jingu (Shrine). It is loaned out to be returned after a specified period of time But only Soke or someone appointed by him can have it.

Our representative in Spain is Ricard Pous Cuberes - Professor d'Esgrima - Institut del Teatre

He has paid a number of visits to practice over here with us.


Sorry its long

cxt
19th May 2004, 18:44
Hyaku


I know Kim Taylor up in Canada has done Niten Ryu work.

But are you aware of anyone in the U.S. that is a member of your group?


Chris Thomas

Xavi
19th May 2004, 18:55
hello Hyakutake, thanks for the reply.

I haven't heard of that guy, the person who has done Niten that you have named (Ricard Pous), his name seems Catalan. Do you have his address or how to contact him? Maybe he is near where I live. You can send me a PM if you like. :)

About Miyagawa sama, he was invited to the last Taikai in Kyoto. I don't know (and don't like) about politics in the school; but my way is to be with the one I feel comfortable with; knowing what I'm doing . Thank you very much for the information; this August I'll fly to Japan and hopefully meet Miyagawa and train with him; I'll write to you my impressions. I've seen the lineage of Miyagawa sama and don't seem false; also, I know that he learnt Niten from his father (I don't remember the name, sorry)

Thanks for all.

Take care.

mingshi
19th May 2004, 19:28
Question:

Is there a schedule for HNIR to do enbu for the year? Say, if I were to visit Japan in the future, when/where should I go to be able to catch some of it?

Thanks,

hyaku
20th May 2004, 04:21
[QUOTE]Originally posted by ZealUK
[B]Hi!

I have a couple of questions...

Firstly, I have read that Miyamoto Musashi was rather a large fellow. Do you think that the two sword techniques of Niten could be performed as effectively in combat by a person of smaller stature, or did Musashi create the techniques to take full advantage of his large size and superior strength?

No, there is no connection with size and strength with exception to the fact that I find it very hard work using a weapon in each hand. But after years and years holing one weapon is has to be hard.
...................
Secondly, were any particular ways of wearing and drawing the shoto and daito? For example would the shoto be worn on the left or the right to facilitate drawing?

Both are worn on the left. There is a method of drawing but this is done at a distance before the approach to a fighting distance. Hyoho Niten Ichiryu is not a sword drawing art but deals with an aggressor who has already drawn and is attacking.
...................
Finally, are there any books/videos available that demonstrate Niten? We do a small amount of Niten in class every so often, and I would love to learn more about it.

No sorry there is not from us. Although Taylor Sensei - Canada has an excellent manual that bears similarity to the way that Aoki Soke used to practice.

Eventualy we will publish both Ito and Nito Seiho with Dokodo. But particularly in what we do there is little substitute for actual practice. is has long been a history in this an other arts that it should be an oral tradition.

If you read Gorin no Sho he repeatedly says "This is an oral tradition" or "This should be studied"

hyaku
20th May 2004, 04:28
Originally posted by cxt
Hyaku
I know Kim Taylor up in Canada has done Niten Ryu work. But are you aware of anyone in the U.S. that is a member of your group?
Chris Thomas

Sorry, things were a bit too hectic to have remembered everybodys name. Yes there were some from the U.S. on last September's seminar

Also some noisy guy called Raymond Sosnowski was in a neighbouring room.

Lol Hello Ray hows things:D :D :D :D

hyaku
20th May 2004, 04:32
Originally posted by mingshi
Question:

Is there a schedule for HNIR to do enbu for the year? Say, if I were to visit Japan in the future, when/where should I go to be able to catch some of it? Thanks,

Hello Ming

Some are set dates like Nihon Kobudo Kyokai in Tokyo and Hiroshima others just crop up. We just had a Sasaki Kojiro rememberance in Kokura and did one there.

hyaku
20th May 2004, 04:35
Originally posted by Xavi
hello Hyakutake, thanks for the reply.

Thank you very much for the information; this August I'll fly to Japan and hopefully meet Miyagawa and train with him; I'll write to you my impressions........

Take care.

Thanks but dont bother. Not really interested.

Xavi
20th May 2004, 09:57
Hello again Hyakutake,

hope I don't disturb you with these writtings (Is this spelled correctly?)

Thanks again for your explanation before.

Do you know if Mr. Ricard Pous is able to teach or is teaching Niten Ichi Ryu in Spain? Or how to contact him?

Thanks a lot.

ZealUK
20th May 2004, 11:19
Thanks for answering my questions!

Charlie Kondek
20th May 2004, 14:21
Hyaku,

From reading Go Rin No Sho, I get the sense - a distant sense, since I'm reading it in English and it's a cryptic work - that Musashi was a practical fighter. He says in his introduction that he honed his skills in duels, that he has experience with battles. To what extent is that practicality evidenced in the techniques of the ryu? Is it one that emphasizes results - winning the exchange - over good form?

cxt
20th May 2004, 14:40
Hyaku


Thanks.


Chris Thomas

hyaku
21st May 2004, 00:19
Originally posted by Xavi
Hello again Hyakutake,

Do you know if Mr. Ricard Pous is able to teach or is teaching Niten Ichi Ryu in Spain? Or how to contact him?Thanks a lot.

Sorry I dont quite understand. You said in the previous post that you were going to train with Miyakawa Sensei. I am sure himself will tell you thats its not really the thing to do skipping between teachers.

You mentioned lineage. I really dont want to get political on this forum. When alls said and done the politics of the ryu very simple. One bokuto, one makimono etc. But its really a private matter and not for the internet. Any further mention and I will ask that the thread be closed.

Respectfully yours

Steve Delaney
21st May 2004, 00:56
Hyaku,

In HNIR there are also several techniques that use the kodachi. How significant are grappling and controlling in this part of the syllabus?

Thanks in advance.

hyaku
21st May 2004, 01:03
Originally posted by Charlie Kondek Hyaku, To what extent is that practicality evidenced in the techniques of the ryu? Is it one that emphasizes results - winning the exchange - over good form?

There is a one hundered percent emphasis on winning the exchange. We don't do anything else. Whereas other arts practice many variations such as go sen no sen etc.

We start with Uchidachi taking it a little slowly but gradually pushing shidachi to respond as fast as possible to try and create a real situation.

Also there is a large emphasis on getting out of the way combined with the attack.

Subconsciously one weighs them up in the attack. Sometimes I find myself getting out of the way and not putting enough into the technique. But at least in practice we dont kill each other and I can try and try again to reach more prefection. In that respect it offers me a bit more than Kendo did in a sense of realism.

Musashi's emphasis in later life was on nutural action. But to me this natural action can be misunderstood. For example we can watch our older most respected teachers in Budo and see an extremly strong but natural reaction.

But others fail to see this and get on the natural bandwagon too early with out going through the hard work stage to get there. To me the the words from Hagakure "You can start to take it easy at around fifty" does not work for everbody.

One thing I can see also is the present Soke has brought an extremly dynamic aspect into the Ryu and perhaps has reached a better understanding than others for some generations.

hyaku
21st May 2004, 01:17
Originally posted by Steve Delaney
Hyaku,

In HNIR there are also several techniques that use the kodachi. How significant are grappling and controlling in this part of the syllabus?

Thanks in advance.

Ohayo Steve

In some of the kodachi waza its a clean technique. Close work seeks to take hold of the opponent, lay off the other weapon, break the balance and cut the neck.

There is an under the chin approach to almost everything where the weapon long or short finishes just off the skin under the throat to complete.

Its all close work that forces the opponent back if at all as he has nowhere else to go to try and regain composure so one gets the feeling that you have a weapon but if need be you could equally control the opponent.

An unusual concept for a big manlike Musashi? I was always told in Kendo "You are big and strong, stay straight and strong use the distance advantage"

Usagi Yojimbo
21st May 2004, 13:34
In Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu, are both swords ever drawn simultaeneously? If so, how are both swords loosed from the saya? Thank you, sir.

fifthchamber
21st May 2004, 15:58
Hello Hyakutake san...
Thanks for finding the time to answer these questions for us!


In Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu, are both swords ever drawn simultaeneously? If so, how are both swords loosed from the saya? Thank you, sir.

...Actually....Is there any actual Iai contained in the Ryu? I have seen only Kenjutsu practised with Bokken...But then that's only the outer level kata...
I believe that you have spoken about the Jujutsu practiced in the school earlier here...Is this just something that Imai Sensei has knowledge of, or is it part of the teachings passed down from an earlier head?
The Omote forms that I have seen are all based around the Kenjutsu: kodachi, nito, and single long sword...Is there any more in there that you can mention?
And again, many thanks for the question and answer session....
Regards..

Ecknerol
21st May 2004, 16:34
I have one questions regarding the bokken(s) you use : do you use specifically the kind of bokken(s) we see everywhere advertised as Niten Ichi ryu daisho (the thinner and lighter ones) or is that just a marketing fad ?

Thank you for your time,

chrismoses
21st May 2004, 18:16
Thanks again for humoring us, it is much appreciated.

So without going into material that you feel is private, but generally speaking, do you feel that the Go Rin no Sho offers something unique to those studying NIR as opposed to those studying other sword lines? I ask because while I have read a few translations and have found some interesting comments in the text, I have always wondered about how it must read to someone from within the art. To be honest, since there was an existant style associated with the author, I have always felt that to try and apply the specifics of the text would at best be kind of foolish without the personal instruction and at worst slightly unethical. I find it intersting how many people site the work as a basis for strategy or technique who have never even seen NIR performed. I know that if I was to write down everthing I knew about my own art, in as much detail as I could, it would be nearly impossible for someone outside of the art to really understand what I was getting at.

Comments? Hope that wasn't too off the wall.

hyaku
21st May 2004, 18:24
Originally posted by Ecknerol
I have one questions regarding the bokken(s) you use : do you use specifically the kind of bokken(s) we see everywhere advertised as Niten Ichi ryu daisho (the thinner and lighter ones) or is that just a marketing fad ? Thank you for your time,

Yes they are a bit of a fad and the ones you buy in the shop are far too light.

The kodachi wont last one practice session.

We do use specific weapons though. We get them made ourselves.

For the "Best in the West" I have to give Kim Taylor a plug. We have been using his.

hyaku
21st May 2004, 19:22
Originally posted by chrismoses
Thanks again for humoring us, it is much appreciated.

So without going into material that you feel is private, but generally speaking, do you feel that the Go Rin no Sho offers something unique to those studying NIR as opposed to those studying other sword lines? etc....

Soke is very pleased and at the same time surprised how so many others can identify with Gorin no Sho.

I would really hope one day to do a book going into precise detail of the waza and identifying that with parts of the book. As Musashi says, "With a feeling of..........." applied to specific parts of a waza.

Personaly I can practice, read the book and say Aaah that's what he meant by that!

Then I could pick it up in another few years and see ever further into it. Yes to me most parts of the book identify directly with what we do.

His philosophy was, "Learn the heart before you learn the sword. If you, your family or country are threatend pick up your weapon of the day, embrace your fatality and "kill them".

So that's what the Fire Book deals with. As a guideline of how to deal with the enemy. Still a very neccesary part of the book. We should research it all because it's what the other guy might do that counts a lot. That's the part where I suppose we get all this, book cover spiel from too.

It was only last week that someone was asking how to do a "Fire and Stones cut". Someone else is convinced that he should practice on his own. He has picked up on Musashi saying, "All things with no teacher"?

There is really no stopping some people. Such are the consequences of reading a manual before you have even seen the work to be done. Its Musashi's story of success. But we don't all read a how to become a milionare book and actually become one!

Lol I better shut up. I might talk people out of buying the book.

Charlie Kondek
21st May 2004, 21:06
Haha!

I don't know if you meant me, but I had asked a couple of times if the Fire and Stones Cut was like a sashi-men in kendo.

I need to know for when I proclaim myself soke of an art based on the book, of course...

R A Sosnowski
21st May 2004, 21:39
Originally posted by hyaku
Sorry, things were a bit too hectic to have remembered everybodys name. Yes there were some from the U.S. on last September's seminar

Also some noisy guy called Raymond Sosnowski was in a neighbouring room.

Lol Hello Ray hows things:D :D :D :D

Almost missed this in the msg. traffic. :D

Given the state of things, we're doing fine.

It'll be another busy Summer -- I'm planning a repeat appearance in Canada in August.

Be well.

lkobayas
23rd May 2004, 23:39
Hi, Colin :)

I am a newbie to this forum, so please forgive me if I make any mistake. And especially, I mean no discourtesy at all, so I really hope I won't make any bad remark or question and I do apologise if I make any.

First of all, thanks for all your kind replies to inquiries on the Niten Ichi ryu.

I was wondering if I could ask you some questions...

1) In a previous post, I read that Aoki sensei was the Soke of Sekiguchi ryu as well. Is that the Sekiguchi ryu battojutsu, jujutsu or both? And is it still taught in the Niten Ichi ryu as well? If (IF) I'm not mistaken (please do correct me if I am), Yonehara sensei became the Soke of the Sekiguchi ryu battojutsu, at the same time as he became the Hachidai Fushimi (is this the correct word?) of Niten Ichi ryu, helping Kiyonaga sensei and Imai sensei. So, at first sight, it seems to me that Sekiguchi ryu and Niten Ichi ryu got a bit dissociated, though obviously very closely related to each other.

2) Are there any plans to release a book containing and/or commenting the other works by and related to Musashi? I think that most people know only the Gorin no Sho, while there are many more works that could be of interest. Not only Dokkodo (which I think it's a very good work: short, simple, straight to the point and meaningful), but also works like Heiho Sanju Go ka jo, Enmei ryu kenjutsu sho, Heiho Goho no maki, Nitenki and many others.

3) Chances are that I'll be in Japan for some months by the end of this year. Is it possible to watch a keiko at the Niten Ichi ryu dojo? And if so, could you provide the address of one of the dojos? PM or e-mail is fine, if you don't want to publish the address for the general public. I understand that there are many different "branches" of Niten Ichi ryu and I don't want to knock on the wrong door ;)

And last,


Originally posted by hyaku
It was only last week that someone was asking how to do a "Fire and Stones cut".

I think that's very easy: just get a sharp sword named "Fire and Stones" and bring it down :D :D

hyaku
24th May 2004, 01:20
Originally posted by lkobayas [/i]
Hi, Colin :)

I was wondering if I could ask you some questions...

1) In a previous post, I read that Aoki sensei was the Soke of Sekiguchi ryu as well. Is that the Sekiguchi ryu battojutsu.......

Sorry I dont have any minute details. What I was told was it was never the idea to permenantly have the two Ryu under on Soke. So they simply went their own ways after Aoki Sensei.

2) Are there any plans to release a book containing and/or commenting the other works by and related to Musashi?

No not really. Dokkodo may appear to be short but its expanation is long.

3) Chances are that I'll be in Japan for some months by the end of this year. Is it possible to watch a keiko at the Niten Ichi ryu dojo?

Possibly. Pm me nearer the date.

lkobayas
24th May 2004, 01:51
Colin,

thanks a lot for your reply :)

I will PM you before I go there then. Thanks again!

hyaku
24th May 2004, 07:27
To go a little further on this branch thing.

Yamaoka Tesshu writes about it in the Itto Shoden Muto Ryu Kanaji Mokuroku.

The Masters Teaching

One who claims to have thoroughly learned his master's techniques while disregarding his master's teaching, relying instead on his own talents, is worst than a fool....... He also says "Teachers must exercise special caution not to impart their wisdom to those who are not ready for it."

That's the way Imai Soke deals with it. It's an unwritten law they go by. And you can bet that teaching came down from his teacher and so on.

Regardless of certification he has only taught one person everything. I have witnessed this in the dojo in the fervour and seriousness directed to but one.

There seems to be some character clashes in some ryu. But like it or not one must implicitly adhere to what the "present" Soke teaches. or find oneself not an actual branch but "stuck on one" with no chance of getting off it.

Robert Miller
26th May 2004, 13:05
What type of wood was Musashi's bokken made from, and what were it's dimensions?

Kaoru
6th July 2004, 18:18
Bump! :) Here you go Charlie! :)

hyaku
7th July 2004, 12:03
Originally posted by Robert Miller
What type of wood was Musashi's bokken made from, and what were it's dimensions?

Looks like very old red oak. Dimension? Difficult to say. Not much different from what we use now. I bit thicker and heavier. Longer than a standard Kendokata Bokuto This page has a few pics.

http://www.hyoho.com/inuag.html

The one where it is being handed over might give you some idea.

hyaku
6th September 2004, 12:30
I added a page to show the grip in Hyoho Niten Ichiryu as opposed to other Budo forms if anyone is interested.

http://www.hyoho.com/hyoho7.html