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Timothy.G.B.
19th May 2004, 17:50
I have seen people do a "double punch" in Passai no Sho, near the end of the kata. It looks like the person is trying to make the letter "C" with their arms, one on top and one on the bottom, leaning forward in zen kutsu dachi.

I know that there are a lot of different interpretations of kata moves but I was always curious about this one. The questions I have are 1) Why are the hands so far apart (i.e. over the head and under the knee)? and 2) What are you thinking when you do that move? I don't mean that in a sarcastic way like, "What the heck were you thinking?" but rather, what do you have in your mind when you do that?

Thanks in advance!

Tim Black

Shorinman
19th May 2004, 19:27
I've seen lots of different variations of that move in the kata such as:

The range you are striking with both punches, to the head with the high punch, and to the stomach with the low punch. I've seen the range of the low punch as low as the knee and as high as the sternum. In some cases it looks like the letter "u".

Some practitioners lean in with their head on the double punch; some lean in, but don't lean in with their head, and they keep their upper body erect, only leaning from the hips. Some throw the punch with both arms bent and some throw the double punch with both arms straight.

One of the bunkai that we do, is after the kick and elbow strike are thrown, the uke blocks the elbow strike with both hands, we then follow with the double punch; the upper punch to the face and the lower punch to the hara.

Blackwood
19th May 2004, 19:53
The double punch to the face and groin is one interpretation. Yeah, Shorinman, we do the same bunkai, the partner's hands have come middle and you go over and under them.

Another that was shown me the other day:

The kick can be a bit of a sweep. If they kick with their leg and you do the sweep with your same leg (left-left/right-right) you will sort of spin them around. At which point you grab their collar and their belt and push them out the door, or pull back on the collar and drop them to the floor! The balance issue on the sweep is the hardest part to get right.

Shorinman
20th May 2004, 18:54
Blackwood, that’s another nice application!

In Genwa Nakasone’s Karatedo Taikan, there is a picture of Shinpan Gusukuma on page 10 showing that move. Then there is an illustration of the application on page 139, showing a simple application off of one punch and countering with a block / punch to the face and low punch to the stomach simultaneously.

Another picture of Gusukuma on page 17, shows a similar application to the one Blackwood described. In the application he blocks the kick with his leg, turning the attacker and striking with open hands to the middle upper back and the back of the leg; it looks similar to Goju Ryu’s tora guchi.

Blackwood
20th May 2004, 19:32
Shorinman, wouldn't you know it? Shinpan Gusukuma Sensei was one of the teachers of Iha Sensei, who I train with about once a month, and who will test me for Shodan (hopefully later this year). I'll have to look up that book!

Lineage (http://www.ihadojo.com/Association/Lineage.jpg)

My Sensei is Robert Menders. I work with him a couple days a week.

Shorinman
21st May 2004, 03:51
Blackwood, yes, I’m aware of that. Thanks.

I’ve tested in front of Iha Sensei 5 times and each time was very difficult. He'll watch you with a blank stare as though he’s looking right through you.

The next time you’re in Lansing to train, please tell Iha Sensei I said hello.

Good Luck when you test and be ready for Chinto. You’ll definitely do that kata for your test! I’m sure Menders Sensei has already prepared you for that.

PS – Getting back to Passai Sho thread. Have you seen Iha Sensei do kakete uke from Passai? He demonstrated that on me and was like a vice grip on my wrist. He traps your wrist or forearm between his pinky and his wrist.

PSS – Tim, What has been your experience with that application from Passai Sho that you mentioned?

Thanks,

RobertW
21st May 2004, 08:12
quote:
In Genwa Nakasone’s Karatedo Taikan, there is a picture of Shinpan Gusukuma on page 10 showing that move. Then there is an illustration of the application on page 139, showing a simple application off of one punch and countering with a block / punch to the face and low punch to the stomach simultaneously.

This is what my teacher shows out of the gate.

Timothy.G.B.
22nd May 2004, 17:46
Shorinman:

We don't put our hand above our head or below our knee. Both hands are in front of the body, facing squarely, with one hand slightly higher than than the other. I know why we do it but I was always curious as to what the application for the big C type shape, with the body turned to the side slightly, was for.

It sounds like it is pretty straighforward, i.e. a punch high and a punch low. It's just that, to my uninformed eyes, the big C looks kind of awkward and I was always curious as to why people did it that way.

Thanks,
Tim Black

Shorinman
24th May 2004, 19:05
Hi Tim,

We don't practice it that way either. We practice it closer to the way that you do.

I agree with you. The version you're talking about does seem kind of awkward. Maybe one of the reasons it's done that way is, due to their interpretation of the bunkai.