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whiteraven
26th October 2000, 20:26
I don't study aikido, but my martial arts school does have techniques such as kata nage and koishi nage- and in a different thread I brought up that, as an average size woman, I tend to have difficulty performing such techniques on large men, for example, my 270# 6'2" husband. I am sure my technique needs lots of work, but wondered what insight you all might have.
For hip throws (we'll just start there-)
The problem seems to be that he is solid, and difficult to move. We are taught that to do these throws you must break your opponent's center (NOT easy on a big strong guy) but even then he seems very heavy- and I have a hard time getting our bodies close enough together and aligned to even start the throw.
If I even suceed in getting myself 'under' him, I often seem to take too much of his weight and collapse. In addition, my legs are kind of long, not terribly, and with throws in general I have difficulty getting low enough to position my center below my opponents. Once I succeed in this, I can't always straighten and use my hips for that little push that means so much...
My speed is non existant because I'm trying to find the right position, and perhaps the slowness is part of what's killing it.
Any ideas for an uncoordinated girl trying to throw big guys? ^_^

kusanku
26th October 2000, 20:50
Sara" I am no Aikido expert though I do a bit o' Yoshinkan, but I have some experience in throwing, more from Judo.As you asked about hip throws, presumably the Aikido koshi nage waza,I would suggest you concentrate on your lead in to the throws, the circuit of neutralization during which you unbalance the opponent.

Get them going first, then throw them.

Think of throwing not the body, but lead the attacker by the fingers of his hand, or at least the wrist.Lead him past his support base( the feet) and he will go off balance, and then you throw, with hips or no.

Advanced level, 'lead the mind and the body follows."

Tai chi would say, lead the fingertips in the direction you want the body to go.

Judo would, too.Just lead the person by the fingertips with your footwork, moving powerfully from your center, and when you throw them, guide them around your hips which just happen to have gotten in the way of their body a that moment.:D

Perhaps that will be of some small help.

[Edited by kusanku on 10-26-2000 at 02:52 PM]

smoo
26th October 2000, 21:04
I have only been training in Aikido for a year, yet I've also experienced the 'why won't this guy fall over' feeling. You say that he is strong and difficult to move, with Aikido it is not so much a case of moving him as directing his own movement. However if he's standing still I've found that using the warm up exercise we do called torifune (boat rowing exrcise) you can make them push against you by pushing into them (with your hips, not just your hands), then by stopping pushing and going with the uke's motion whilst directing it using whatever technique (in a continuous motion, not neccesarily hard and fast) you can generally get them on the mat.

Beware, I may just be talking rubbish!

Nick
27th October 2000, 00:54
can't help you with koshis... mine look more like "hip falls" rather than "hip throws", since the few times I've attempted them, my uke kinda stumbled over me and I almost tripped... koshis are for a day down the road.

However- in my experience, on bigger people it's better to go tenkan. We have some students in our dojo that kind of describe your husband, and trying to go irimi (for an iriminage, tenchinage, etc) has been very hard, unless you catch them off balance on the attack. If they're centered, and a good bit larger, it seems more difficult to enter in.

Of course, I'm coming up on a year's training... I can barely do tenkan ;).

Any higher-ups wanna take a crack at this one?

Nick Porter

davoravo
27th October 2000, 02:01
You describe a very common problem. It's hard to decribe rather than show but I got over the "staggers" through the following (assuming your koshi nage is the same as mine):
1. Enter deeply - put your feet right between uke's and make a good right angle (T) with your bodies.
2. Make Uke's arm and body form a larger arc upward and outward. Make sure you have a good twist on his wrist and arm. This should get him right up on his toes and really helps.
3. As you bend down extend your arm outward and uke outward even more.
4. Try to stand before you walk. Bring uke up onto your pelvis and support him there. Uke should co operate by gripping on like a monkey with his knees and elbows onto your body. Again make sure you have a good T position, uke lying at right angles across your lower back. If he is at a diagonal across your back you will be off balance. You should look a bit like you are squatting weights at the gym. Learn to balance in this position.
5. Now try crawling. Just straighten up and uke should gently roll off onto the ground. Big confidence boost. D:
6. Now walk. Adjust the technique to the correct positioning your sensei would like. Repeat 10 000 times.

szczepan
27th October 2000, 03:35
Hi Sara,

We have few very weak girls in our dojo, these are some exercises they do.
For koshinage you need strong center and strong legs(in the beginning).So you can begin by practice a lot of different suwari waza techniques, suwari waza kokyu ho(with uke pushing you and NOT only holding your wrists).
You can also practice iaido (first set of technique are sitting techniques).
Kibadachi(sp?) every day - is very helpfull for strong legs.

From more advanced techniques you can try atemi with all your body(not using hands) - you hit attacker with your hip&upper body - to attacker's center.Don't forget to put your arm in L with your elbow on his stomach level, but not standing out of your body. This should nicely put him out of balance if your entering is sincere.

Progresively your body(and as you will learn martial spirit) will be stronger, and ready to deal with big guys.

good luck.

davoravo
27th October 2000, 03:38
Neglected to emphasise that uke must lie across your pelvis not your lower back (this would strain your lumbar spine). In this position all of uke's weight is directly over your legs so you can almost go for a walk around the mat with him clinging on. Also, for safety, uke should hook what will be his inside arm under your armpit and grasp your bicep. This will help him rotate faster (easier for you) and fall into a nice ukemi.

Your probably also wondering about the startng position. I start with a shomen strike (usu tori but uke could do this) then use an atemi to change my grip. I then grasp Uke's tegatana in a sankyo grip. This gives good torsion for his torso.

I cannot emphasise enough to make your circle bigger, bigger, bigger. Really extend uke's arm upward and outward.

Rob
27th October 2000, 10:03
Just to throw in my 50p.

One of the things struck me reading all the advice above is that clearly there are many different ways of doing the same technque.

I teach a Jiu Jitsu style and some of the things mentioned above e.g. taking their weight on to you (a la squating with weights) and straightening the legs at the end of flick the off are part of my world famous - common mistakes with a hip throw.

Please note I am NOT saying that anybody is wrong and I am right just that the approach to the same technique is completley different.

The way I have always been taught hip throws is that effectively uke falls over you. We take a low position with feet together and knees bent (a bit like Charlie Chaplin).

Balance is broken in the direction of Uke's attack and then brought round in a circle, during this time his (or her) weght moves forward and over you hips and he falls over - Hoorah.

I never take the weight of uke completely on my body and we are explicitly taught not to straighten the legs as that effectively involves lifting uke - too much like hard work.

Apologies if I've not described it very well.

whiteraven
27th October 2000, 13:55
First, I want to thank everyone for your posts-
I too, notice that several different techniques are being described here, some of which I can't really even fathom, not being familiar with some of the names that are being tossed around, because we either don't practice them, or do so under a different name.
I think that the general points thus far have been-
1. Use Uke's energy (less allowing him to stand still and trying to give him the old heave-ho).
2. Use more of a large, circular motion with his arm and mine, and push my hips deeper into uke.
3. Get lower, keep feet closer together, and strengthen my legs so when he is on me I don't fall over.
4. Try and pass under uke rather than put him on my back and then try and get him off. (This one does seem to vary with which technique you are doing. We have a slightly different technique where you just enter fast and low and more or less "scoot" under your opponent. It's fun, and works really well when it works, but if you fail it's pretty ugly. ;) )

akiy
27th October 2000, 15:49
I think the most important part about koshinage is to break uke's balance. Some of the best hip throws I've felt have not been the "load uke" kind but those that have involved my hardly feeling nage's hips at all as a "load and lift." Heck, a good hip throw needn't have nage bearing any of uke's weight...

-- Jun Akiyama

Rob
27th October 2000, 16:24
Yeah yeah = what he said.

Just for the record (after reviewing my rambling contribution) Jun just explained far better than I exactly what I was trying to say.

Now I'm gonna go the Dojo and try and make it work

Ron Tisdale
27th October 2000, 18:36
Jun,
Any chance that you would give us a blow by blow description of your favorite method to apply koshinage?

Ron Tisdale

MarkF
28th October 2000, 11:17
Oriiginally posted by akiy:


Heck, a good hip throw needn't have nage bearing any of uke's weight...



This is true of any type of tai jutsu art, but timing to break kuzushi, entering the proper distance, definitely takes strength centered in the hips to do this absolutely correct and with no feel of "loading uke." Entering and off-balancing will give you the "no loading zone" feel, with proper strength (some is always necessary, but not much) in the legs in lowering your own center and lift with uke on his way down. A hip throw is a hip throw, sometimes.:)

George Ledyard
28th October 2000, 12:41
Originally posted by whiteraven
I don't study aikido, but my martial arts school does have techniques such as kata nage and koishi nage- and in a different thread I brought up that, as an average size woman, I tend to have difficulty performing such techniques on large men, for example, my 270# 6'2" husband. I am sure my technique needs lots of work, but wondered what insight you all might have.
For hip throws (we'll just start there-)
The problem seems to be that he is solid, and difficult to move. We are taught that to do these throws you must break your opponent's center (NOT easy on a big strong guy) but even then he seems very heavy- and I have a hard time getting our bodies close enough together and aligned to even start the throw.
If I even suceed in getting myself 'under' him, I often seem to take too much of his weight and collapse. In addition, my legs are kind of long, not terribly, and with throws in general I have difficulty getting low enough to position my center below my opponents. Once I succeed in this, I can't always straighten and use my hips for that little push that means so much...
My speed is non existant because I'm trying to find the right position, and perhaps the slowness is part of what's killing it.
Any ideas for an uncoordinated girl trying to throw big guys? ^_^

A couple of points. Getting the partner off center in Aikido is most often accomplshed using atemi (strikes) which isn't allowed in judo. Without atemi you must physically manipulate your opponent and that isn't easy. Without the break in the partner's flow caused by an atemi, you must have blazing speed to take advantage of the opening you create (it will "close" in an instant).

One of my friends is a judoka who has bad knees. He doesn't do full koshis any more as they require too much knee bend. Instaed he does leg throws (very effectively I might add). His move in this direction probably was made necessary ny the fact that he is 6' 3" or 4". It's hard for him to get really low.

Regardless, the issue of not taking too much weight from the large guys is a matter of speed. If you do the technique right, with smooth execution, their weight rolls around you and down rather than resting on top of you. That's the ideal anyway.

Gil Gillespie
28th October 2000, 14:51
To reinforce George's post and others above, my sensei (an old friend of George's) has increasingly emphasized that in aikido we don't so much throw our partner as take away his ability to stand. Our chief instructor, a sandan who took ukemi for sensei for years, says that in all those years he never felt "thrown" in koshi-nage. Through joining, breaking balance and leading, sensei made it impossible for him to stand any longer and as uke he had to take his fall. Straightening the knees to rise and "launch" uke are not good technique, although I guess it is always "there" if you need to throw someone out a window. . .

Mike Collins
29th October 2000, 05:41
It seems a bit simplistic, but maybe you've never heard it before- just let your hips displace theirs, so their legs are simply "floated" and they naturally go over. Watch good swing dancers, they do this.

davoravo
29th October 2000, 21:38
I'd just like to point out the way I described Koshi nage was a learning technique for beginners. By bearing uke's weight the practicioner learns good balance and how to hoist/guide uke in a large circle without crumbling in to a heap and risking injury for both. It is also excellent for teaching ukemi (probably what it is actually designed for). "Correct technique" (there seems to be an exponentially expanding range of this) is as described by everyone's great posts D:

Sheridan
29th October 2000, 22:00
Easiest way to tell if your uke is ready to be thrown (IMHO), look at his or her feet. If they are standing on their toes and leaning into you or are ready to fall on their own because of loss of balance, they are ready for their first flying lesson. Somebody already mentioned taking that opening with conviction, if you don't THEN it gets ugly. Make that poor bugger reevaluate how much good his size and strength are doing him. Hope this helps. :)

M Clarke
30th October 2000, 02:22
Hi,
I think that learning to execute an effective koshi nage is something you are going to have to work out with your sensei. But I would mention one thing, you don't have to be able to do every technique in the book against every antagonist. And a slim smaller person doing koshinage against a large heavy person with a solid grip on the earth is not a smart thing to do in my opinion. I would never try shihonage against a short stocky person unless the technique was "there" duing another technique. Choose an appropriate technique for the opponent and the situation given maai and the like. We have a young lady in our dojo, she's 5'4". If we resist fully, she can't throw us with many throws but she has a variation of kokyu nage that knocks our socks off.
Regards

whiteraven
30th October 2000, 13:55
Forgive my ignorance, but what is kokyu nage?
I agree with the idea that not every technique should be used on every opponent, I stated in a different thread that a hip throw would not be my first choice as far as ways to get a large man down- but someone else suggested that I was probably also having more difficulty than I should (read as- unable to do most of the time) with koshi nage.
My choice thus far to get big guys down is a move where we grab the lapels, and do a sort of spinning jump to one side, switching your feet, so now you are facing the opposite direction, and uke sort of trips over your outstretched leg and falls in a circular sideways motion to his back. It seems simple and works well most of time.

davoravo
30th October 2000, 20:24
Dear Sara
Your hip throw technique sounds very different from anything in aikido. Actually it sounds more like a judo tai toshi than even a judo hip throw (excuse my horrible Japanese). I would say go to the judo forum but I think they sent you here.

I think the advice to get uke up on his toes and leaning forward then getting down low will still help you. I have an old judo text which would suggest getting in really close to uke and for a hip throw making a good connection with your hip and uke's body and making sure you stick to him well through the throw. Again this is very un-aikido where we have a tendency to avoid touching uke with our bodies (ooh yuck).

whiteraven
30th October 2000, 21:29
Note- the above technique I described is *not* a hip throw.
I guess it's more along the lines of a sweep. I was just using this as an example of an alternate way to get your opponent off his feet.
:)

M Clarke
30th October 2000, 22:30
Sara,
Kokyuu nage is a name that the mainly (it seems) Iwama folk use for throws where the use of kokyuu is considered essential. Kokyuu itself refers to extension power produced through coordinated breath with the tendon/ligament system. Some one more experienced may be able to better describe this. But to illustrate, I'm sure that you know tenchi nage, this is considered by us to be a kokyuu nage. I would point you to Saito Sensei's book on kokyuu nage, a wonderful collection of throws that people with a slighter build can use very effectively. The kokyuu nage that I mentioned that the lady in our dojo uses actually sounds a lot like yours except she doesn't use the foot to sweep, which does make yours sound a little like a judo throw, soto ogari or some thing like that. She traps ukes leading arm, takes uke behind the head, turns and plants uke upside down.
Regards

Gil Gillespie
31st October 2000, 06:22
Hi Sara

Kokyu nage is indeed "breath throw," and there are some specific techniques taught under that name. Any center-splitting waza such as tenchi nage qualifies. But in the larger sense any waza that has specific inhale at moment of deai and harnessed explosive exhale into the throw is kokyu nage. Irimi nage thus qualifies under the kokyu nage umbrella. Many techniques thus have kokyu nage attributes.

In our dojo we have an old tongue-in-cheek saying, any technique where you don't know what it was is kokyu nage. Now that's a learning tool, y'all. No need to pounce indiscriminately ;-)

MarkF
31st October 2000, 07:56
Even if you mean to *insult* judo, at least get the terms right.:)

Tai otoshi is a body drop and is not a sweep of any kind, and properly done, has as little body contact as anything similar in aikido (and they both are similar to each other).

O soto gari is also not a sweep, it is an outside reaping leg back throw, and again, if done as in nage no kata, does not have a lot of body contact.

In fact, when judo is done right, uke moves for the same reasons and body contact is minimal and extremely short. Therefore, koshiwaza is done against similar attackers as any judo koshiwaza. Hip throws on small people is certainly not out of the question, as in the example given, the woman at 5'4" towers over me at 5'3".

The major difference probably would be in the learning and practicing. Uke must be off-balanced to throw him/her, and rarely knows which nage is going to be applied.

Anyway, I thought it might be useful to the discussion. Please continue.

Mark

George Ledyard
31st October 2000, 12:15
Originally posted by davoravo
I have an old judo text which would suggest getting in really close to uke and for a hip throw making a good connection with your hip and uke's body and making sure you stick to him well through the throw. Again this is very un-aikido where we have a tendency to avoid touching uke with our bodies (ooh yuck).
Actually I use body contact on almost every technique. The late Don Draeger Sensei pointed out that as the number of points of cantact increase so does your control. So even on a technique like ikkyo where the normal version uses two points of contact (the hands) I will add a third (the hips) which works to displace the uke from his base. Also, almost every Aikido technique has a leg sweep contained within it, usually we practice with the sweep staying implicit rather than explicit but it is there all the time. Most of your kokyunage are slightly adjusted koshinage. If they are to work there is usually some body contact, not just the use of the arms.

szczepan
31st October 2000, 16:12
Originally posted by George Ledyard

So even on a technique like ikkyo where the normal version uses two points of contact (the hands) I will add a third (the hips) which works to displace the uke from his base. Also, almost every Aikido technique has a leg sweep contained within it, usually we practice with the sweep staying implicit rather than explicit but it is there all the time. Most of your kokyunage are slightly adjusted koshinage. If they are to work there is usually some body contact, not just the use of the arms.

I'm not at all against body contact, but IMO in ikkyo case I'd say it will be wrong to touch/hit partner'center with your own hip.Reason is very simple - direction of your center must be toward center of attacker as you should be able to deliver a kick to his center.Otherwise all angles,distance and rythme of ikkyo will be wrong.
Idea of displacing the uke from his base is very good but not physically with hip, only with correct angle of entering.If you locked correctly uke's arm of course :)

in the other hand, more experience you have, less contact you need.

regardz

Mike Collins
31st October 2000, 16:30
I have experienced ikkyo from some very senior people. The one which I've felt as the most effective, effortless, and potentially devastating is one where the nage is turning while entering and could almost be doing a koshi nage as ikkyo. I don't know anything about being able to kick or anything else, but I can assure you that this ikkyo using the hip as a contact point is devastatingly effective. The man who does it with the most authority is about 5'5-6" and maybe 150 lbs maximum, I'm 6'2-3" and about 300 lbs. I've watched this man literally go through a dojo with about 70 people present, at all different levels, going from one to another indiscriminantly doing this technique effectively.

There are a lot of ways of doing effective technique.

whiteraven
31st October 2000, 17:23
Originally posted by koi
[I would point you to Saito Sensei's book on kokyuu nage, a wonderful collection of throws that people with a slighter build can use very effectively.
[/B]

What is the title of this book, please?



The kokyuu nage that I mentioned that the lady in our dojo uses actually sounds a lot like yours except she doesn't use the foot to sweep, which does make yours sound a little like a judo throw, soto ogari or some thing like that. She traps ukes leading arm, takes uke behind the head, turns and plants uke upside down.
Regards [/B]

Veering off in another direction-
Hehehe... frightening throws...
Had one guy basically do a pile driver to me once- picked me up, turned me upside down, and sent me head first into the mat... ouch.
Other most frightening throw for me- instructor stands back to back with me, reaches behind him under my chin, and throws me over his shoulder- opposite of direction most of our falls...eeek. :o
I love being thrown, it throwing others I have trouble with.
;)

M Clarke
31st October 2000, 23:16
My apologies to the judoka for mis-naming their Greater Outside Reap <g>.

Sara, the Saito sensei book is Takemusu Aikido Vol. IV Kokyunage. It may be out of print but will no doubt be reprinted. Try at Mr Pranin's http://www.aikidojournal.com/catalog/takemusu.htm. The other volumes are worth a look as well.

Regards

M Clarke
31st October 2000, 23:18
Sara,
Please remove that full stop from the end of the URL in my last post.

szczepan
1st November 2000, 15:50
Originally posted by Mike Collins

I can assure you that this ikkyo using the hip as a contact point is devastatingly effective



:)

of course it is.

but it is "jutsu" (not aiki) level......

regardz

Mike Collins
1st November 2000, 17:24
If you insist that a student of Osensei is less qualified to discriminate Aiki from jujutsu than you are, you got more chutzpah than I have my friend.

This technique is absolutely aiki, there is absolutely no clash. You sir, are simply wrong.

whiteraven
1st November 2000, 18:17
I find it a little amusing that many posts on the forum end up with people getting a little upset by a someone saying that a technique does or does not belong under a certain system. I understand, in a way, because the principles for each art may be different. As something of a utilitarian, however, and having studied multiple arts (no, aikido is not one of them, neither is judo. My school does use some jujutsu and akijutsu techniques) I just want to know what works, and so I wonder sometimes whether it really matters where a technique comes from, so long as it does work. Of course, I must keep in mind that not every technique will work for me. Perhaps some of this comes from attending a non traditional school (we can't trace our instructor line from a village in Japan a thousand years ago as far as I know ;) )
I also find it interesting that almost every art shares basic techniques with others, but calls them by completely different names. :)
Thanks again for your replies, I'll step off the box now.

Mike Collins
1st November 2000, 18:20
Your art does not descend directly from a small village in Korea, Sinanju??

davoravo
2nd November 2000, 01:16
"this is very un-aikido where we have a tendency to avoid touching uke with our bodies (ooh yuck)."

I knew that would get people going - hehehehe :bandit:

PS: I never knew that a leg sweep was implicit. I have only ever seen one picture of a leg sweep in Tomiki against a kick. Does anyone else "imply" a leg sweep? :confused:

davoravo
2nd November 2000, 01:49
Sara, I think we have also discovered that schools use the same name for completely different techniques.

By the way I think it is a little bit important whether a technique belongs to a style or not. Aikido should be a unified whole, a set of techniques based around a philosophy rather than utilitarianism. As in all martial arts it is the basic techniques that are useful, the rest are learning exercises in harmony and motion.

Neh? Or Nay!

whiteraven
2nd November 2000, 17:48
Or ne? ;)
This has been quite an interesting thread.

davoravo
2nd November 2000, 22:37
But did it help? Is your husband now flat on his back (the way you like him)?

George Ledyard
3rd November 2000, 11:12
Originally posted by szczepan

Originally posted by George Ledyard

So even on a technique like ikkyo where the normal version uses two points of contact (the hands) I will add a third (the hips) which works to displace the uke from his base. Also, almost every Aikido technique has a leg sweep contained within it, usually we practice with the sweep staying implicit rather than explicit but it is there all the time. Most of your kokyunage are slightly adjusted koshinage. If they are to work there is usually some body contact, not just the use of the arms.

I'm not at all against body contact, but IMO in ikkyo case I'd say it will be wrong to touch/hit partner'center with your own hip.Reason is very simple - direction of your center must be toward center of attacker as you should be able to deliver a kick to his center.Otherwise all angles,distance and rythme of ikkyo will be wrong.
Idea of displacing the uke from his base is very good but not physically with hip, only with correct angle of entering.If you locked correctly uke's arm of course :)

in the other hand, more experience you have, less contact you need.

regardz I can assure you that a) this method works quite well so I would not classify it as "wrong" and b) I can deliver a kick at any point without a problem

George Ledyard
3rd November 2000, 11:21
Originally posted by davoravo
[BI never knew that a leg sweep was implicit. I have only ever seen one picture of a leg sweep in Tomiki against a kick. Does anyone else "imply" a leg sweep?
[/B]
Ikkyo can be done with a simultaneous leg sweep; hiji nage has a leg sweep right there should the partner fail to go down all the way, shihonage has a devastating sweep just as you cut the arms, iriminage definitely can be done with a leg sweep, there is alovely foot block in ryote tori kokyunage, I am sure that I could go on ... As for the term implicit. I use it to mean that possibility for the sweep is there but we don't normally manifest it. This is as opposed to explicit where it is actually done.

davoravo
4th November 2000, 01:29
Dear George,
I haven't heard of this before and I am just wondering if it isn't a little dangerous for aikido (minimum force philosophy) given that in judo a combination arm lock and leg sweep is illegal (someone is bound to correct me on this) :shot:
Also I find your hip contact interesting. I have used this a few times in Tenchi nage, shiho nage and irimi nage but in the several styles I have trained in this was always a spontaneous rather than practiced variation :smokin:
Has your teacher incorporated a lot of jujutsu in your aikido?

George Ledyard
4th November 2000, 13:52
[QUOTE]Originally posted by davoravo
Dear George,
I haven't heard of this before and I am just wondering if it isn't a little dangerous for aikido (minimum force philosophy) given that in judo a combination arm lock and leg sweep is illegal (someone is bound to correct me on this) :shot:
Also I find your hip contact interesting. I have used this a few times in Tenchi nage, shiho nage and irimi nage but in the several styles I have trained in this was always a spontaneous rather than practiced variation :smokin:
Has your teacher incorporated a lot of jujutsu in your aikido? [/QUOTE

Depending on what technique you are talking about it can be dangerous. Ikeda Sensei threw me using an arm bar koshi nage that was absolutely right on the edge for me. But, artist as he is, I was completely unhurt when I landed. Because the nature of the locks in Aikido tend to be in the direction that the joint naturally bends rather than away as in some jiu jutsu joint breaking type locks, there is usually room for a leg sweep without increasing the potential for injury.

As for Saotome Sensei's Aikido... He spent 15 years training with the Founder as a 24 hour a day uchi deshi. I have heard Americans who never met O-Sensei say when they saw some of his more martial technique, "Oh but that's not Aikido!" I think that rather than say that any of the so-called "harder" stuff you see in Aikido is from jiu jutsu, it would be more accurate to say that most Aikido that is being taught these days is a somewhat simplified and user friendly version of what the uchi deshi were taught.

We have a joke at my dojo (which is named Aikido Eastside). A lot of our Aikido neighbors seem to think that we are kind of hard ass and incorporate elements from arts that are not strictly speaking Aikido as they see it into the training. So we have jokingly renamed the dojo "Not Aikido Eastside".

Yamantaka
4th November 2000, 20:37
Originally posted by George Ledyard
"We have a joke at my dojo (which is named Aikido Eastside). A lot of our Aikido neighbors seem to think that we are kind of hard ass and incorporate elements from arts that are not strictly speaking Aikido as they see it into the training. So we have jokingly renamed the dojo "Not Aikido Eastside". "

YAMANTAKA : I also heard a little story from Ueshiba Morihei-O (correct me, anyone, if I'm wrong!) that goes like that :
An uchideshi once asked Kaiso what to do in a certain situation. The founder answered : "Bite him!" Shocked, the student cried : "But Sensei, that's not Aikido!"
The founder smiled and replied : "Oh! But it works!"
Real or not, that story touches a point : Aikido is a martial art. One must always bear in mind that the most important thing should not be the "correct" technique but Takemusu Aiki, the spontaneous and creative technique.
Best regards and good keiko
Yamantaka

davoravo
4th November 2000, 21:45
Dear George,
I have trained in Yoshinkan (pre war Uchi deshi) and Iwama style (Saito sensei claims to teach aikido exactly as he trained with the founder for 25 years) and I have never seen any leg sweeps in the dojo. Also I have never seen a photo or film of the founder performing a leg sweep.

I am NOT saying you are not doing aikido, it's just different from most other people (well, me anyway). You could start another thread on leg sweeps ...

Ubaldo,
hang on to yer teeff

PS George, just read some of your posts on CQC Forum. I guess it doesn't matter what you are doing. You are obviously having lots of fun and doing it with great spirit. Wish I could come join you.

[Edited by davoravo on 11-05-2000 at 12:54 AM]

Yamantaka
5th November 2000, 08:52
[QUOTE]Originally posted by davoravo
[B]
Ubaldo,
hang on to yer teeff

YAMANTAKA : How can I ? My dentures always fly away when I do Kiai...

Mike Collins
5th November 2000, 21:31
I have a teacher who says it only isn't Aikido if it DOESN'T work.

davoravo
5th November 2000, 22:29
Does that mean Denture-Jutsu is aikido too? :kiss:

Yamantaka
5th November 2000, 23:25
Originally posted by davoravo
Does that mean Denture-Jutsu is aikido too? :kiss:

YAMANTAKA : Only if you use it with love in your heart : Not to destroy your enemy but to break his kuzushi and use high projection to blend him harmoniously with the ground...:))


[Edited by YAMANTAKA on 11-06-2000 at 01:49 AM]

Ron Tisdale
6th November 2000, 14:44
Davaoro,

I also train in Yoshinkan, and I have to say that I see all kinds of "implied" leg sweeps (Ayate mochi, shihonage, hanmi handachi has a nice one). If uke's movement is correct, they are safe from the back pivot that 'could' be a leg sweep. While I agree that these are often very dangerous to apply in practise, to ignore the possibility, is to ignore one of the most valuable assets of aikido. There are many things we don't do in training because of safety, or because we try to be true to the art handed down. This does not mean, in my opinion, that these are things we can't do if needed. I think the higher level students do explore more of these "openings" in certain training environments ( like gasshuku courses [black belt preparation]). I myself have been taught a kick or two (yes, in aikido no less). As always,

YMMV
Ron Tisdale

davoravo
7th November 2000, 00:18
Thank you Mr Tisdale,
I just hadn't seen it done, though I've been tempted on many occasions and given into temptation once on my sensei. He wasn't very happy with me :saw: