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Shin Buke
1st July 2004, 00:07
Hello,

Well, after much too long a wait and some dabbling here and there, I'm finally set to take Aikido starting this August (have a TESOL course that prevents me from starting earlier). While I am confident in Aikido as a martial art, I've heard many express the opinion that it would be good to train in a more "rigorous" (for lack of a better term) martial art. From what I've heard from friends and forum lurking, one learns how to fight effectively more quickly in "hard" art. So, I pose two questions (two main questions, 203948203948 sub-questions ^_~) to all ye knowledgable folks here on E-budo.

First, what is your opinion on cross-training? With most cross-training there will be some conflict early on, I'd imagine, but will it make learning two arts significantly difficult? Would your recommend taking Aikido for several months to get the basic grounding in the art and then add on another art once I've been properly exposed to the "feel" of Aikido? Should I pick an art that compliments Aikido or should I go with something significantly different in order to teach me a different way at looking at combat?

Second, what art would ya'll recommend I cross-train in? I'm thinking a striking art might do me good, but I know of some very vigorous and effective non-striking arts such as Gracie Jujutsu. My mind right now is pondering (in no particular order) Gracie Jujutsu, Kajukenbo, Muay Thai, Shorinji Kempo, and Jeet Kune Do (I realize that not all of these are Japanese arts but I'm sure there are people here who practice these arts). Of course, I'm probably leaving out some excellent martial arts that I've either never heard of or just are not coming to mind right now. For those of you who are kind enough to share your insight with me, know that:

(a) As stated I would like to train in a rigorous art, preferrably one that does not shy away from full-contact sparring (though I realize that such a decision is frequently up to individual instructors).
(b) While I do not necessarily want an art that would complimient Aikido, I don't want one that is completely antithetical to Aikido.
(c) Come January I will, most likely, be headed to Japan (Nagano for three months then Sendai for a year). I would like to be able to continue cross-training while in Japan.

I would appreciate your input on these questions. Thank you for your time! ^_^

Gene Williams
1st July 2004, 03:54
If you are taking aikido, I would cross train in karate (a traditional ryu). But, I would wait until I had a couple of years of aikido under my belt. Their philosophies are so different and the foot work so different that you will never be able to give either art its due if you do both at once. Either art is a full commitment of time and energy, anyway. Do aikido, run, do situps and pushups, stay limber then after a couple of years land in a Shorin or Goju class.

Amir
1st July 2004, 09:35
I agree with Gene

I believe cross training (Teachers and Arts) is essential for the growth of a martial artist. But it is not meant for beginners, with the exception of a few "natural Geniuses".

Hence, if you wish to study Aikido - go and practice it. If you prefer another M.A. for now - take it instead. Don't start learning 2 M.A. together, first learn the basics of one (normally that's Shodan level - black belt) then add / change arts and teachers.
Any other way will likely slow your progress significantly, and might also be a cause for physical damage (When practicing M.A. the body needs time to recover, after you practice for a while, the strain on your body is lessened and you can add another art).

Amir

Shin Buke
2nd July 2004, 02:06
Thank you both for you input, it has been very helpful. I can definitely understand how starting in two different martial arts can be problematic. Best to get proper grounding in Aikido first.

Ewok
2nd July 2004, 07:29
I've been getting in trouble because of my foot work lately from aikido and hapkido. Im used to doing shorinji kempo where I move off the attack line and attack on an angle.

Get one thing down, at least a year of hard training. But then go for it and see how you go. Try them all :D

henso
3rd July 2004, 22:55
As conecrns the matter of training in more than one art, I would definitely agree with those who advocate that you master all of the basics of one art, before moving onto another.

My own personal experience taught me that it is extremely difficult to learn other arts once you've attained proficiency in one, and close to impossible if you try to learn two arts at once.

I originally studied Shotokan Karate, and then moved onto Bruce Lee's JKD. These two arts were not entirely disimilar, as they are both hard styles of the kick-punch nature, but, nevertheless, the philosophical differences in approach and application were very difficult to reconcile.

My next and current art, Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, is completely different in philosophy, tactics and application, and was so daunting to learn with the background I had, that in truth, I had to forget everything I had learned previously, to absorb this new art.

I have since found that cross training in arts that are similar is more rewarding to me personally, as they allow me to retain and aguement the skills I already have. All of that having been said, it is still valuable to train in other arts, as it allows you to face methods of attack that you wouldn't otherwise see in your arts regular training sessions.

HinodeBuddha
6th July 2004, 01:25
If I might make a suggestion. Check out Enshin Karate. Its movements are circular in nature and compliments Aikido very well.

Jason Couch
7th July 2004, 00:03
If you're talking remotely similar arts, I'd stick to just one for a year or so before adding anything. If dissimilar, I don't necessarily agree that you can't begin two styles at the same time, as long as the time and training commitments don't conflict.

For example, I can't see how taking MT at the same time as aikido is going to be that big of a deal- the techniques and philosophies are going to be completely different, and as long as you can keep them compartmentalized, there shouldn't be much of a problem.

Jack_Redfield
7th July 2004, 01:54
I agree with trying like-minded martial arts. However, basics can cover a large range of techniques from chinese-L's to chi-kung steps in general.

Other than that though, taking on two martial arts at a time shouldn't be too problematic if you remember which school you're at. I couldn't see how one could work and learn two styles and still manage a job; unless the schools only offered one-two lessons a week anyhow. And if that's the case, you're gonna end up with more practice than is wise on your part anyway.

Jack_Redfield
7th July 2004, 01:58
sorry about my signature on that last reply. fixed it.

Carlton
9th July 2004, 08:21
I suggest you do Kendo to compliment your Aikido. Purchase the book: Judo- Training Methods by Ishikawa and Draeger. Excellent workout routines for maximum body strength and efficency.
Stay away from striking arts. They're only good for sport. If you can't contain yourself..... English Boxing. No since in picking up your feet and losing your center.... blah blah blah
later

David Carlton

HinodeBuddha
9th July 2004, 18:21
Striking arts are only good for sports? I think, Carlton that you are confused or misguided in your statement. Aikido incorporate a lot of atemi and knowing how to strike is very important. Cross training in a striking art is a good way to learn how to properly execute those strikes as it has been my experience that most Aikido schools do not teach atemi very much. Kicking, lol, it takes a skilled practitioner to encorporate kicking into their Aikido but I would hardly discount it as something that is not necessary.

Carlton
9th July 2004, 18:59
Perhaps I am misguided. I've always felt that striking is an act of hatred. Something that is done out of contempt. The Buddha holds no contempt. We protect ourselves and the innocent- yes! If striking is our only option.. so be it! However, if we can subdue the opponent without causing harm, this is the greatest victory.
Our brother or sister that has strayed from the path of rightiousness, attacks us. They are suffering in their mind and we must have compassion. We must not cause them further suffering. Subdue them gently; and embrace them.

Shin Buke
9th July 2004, 22:25
I believe that the real act of hatred is the act of an assailant attacking a person that means him no harm. Striking is simply a method by which to subdue such an attacker and an essential element to the practice of Aikido (an element which, as Mr. Laizure pointed out, has been unfortunately downplayed in modern Aikido instruction).

It's nice to think that we can solve all confrontations by simply plopping people on their bums but I think that this viewpoint is a bit naive in not taking into account the mentality of a truly dedicated assailant. In some cases, as you mentioned Mr. Carlton, it might be necessary to do more than merely plop someone down. They key is applying the proper force to the proper situation. If a situation requires merely a toss then so be it. Should the situation require lethal force, then that is something that must be accepted and applied. If I might paraphraze a fairly well-known martial axiom: Speak before you hurt, hurt before you maim, maim before you kill.

I believe it is the responsibility of one who trains in the martial way to know how to best defend others as well as himself. This requires training in many different methods to allow the martial practitioner to properly respond to a plethora of different situations and give him all the elements he needs to effectively subdue any attacker. It is the harmony and balanced achived by learning various methods that, in my opinion, forges a warrior who can effectively respond to such situations.

Anyway, thems just my thoughts. ^_^ I do appreciate all the input I've received thus far, it has been most helpful.

moogong
20th July 2004, 15:38
Might I suggest learning a hard art before a soft art. I have observed many cases of people being very sucessful at training in a hard style then moving onto a soft style rather than the other way around. That's just my opinion based on my experience though.
I would agree with the above posters, whatever art you begin with, get a foundation in that before moving on. A proper foundation would require a few years of training, most likely to 1st dan.
What ever you decide, enjoy your art. :)


Charles Slade

Ron Tisdale
20th July 2004, 16:32
If you are going to be in Sendai, I suggest looking at the university aikido group there for instruction under John Stevens. He is a professor there, and I hear good things about the training. It will not be casual training however...I suggest that you not cross-train initially. I believe he would require you to commit to training every day.

If I were 20 years younger, I'd probably choose judo, wrestling or bjj for cross-training. All of those should provide free-sparring, and close in grappling and body awareness. You can probably get the striking experience you seek in about 6 mos. to a year of karate.

Good luck,
Ron

JAMJTX
21st July 2004, 15:39
Training in any other art while getting started in Aikido will be difficult. When I first started in Aikido a lot of people asked what style of karate I was training in. My stances were an immediate give-away. Had I not been training in other arts my Aikido would have progressed much faster.

For cross training in a karate style, I like the combination of Goju Ryu and any style of Aikido. My Aikido is Doshinkan/Yoshinkan.
One of my earlier Aikido teachers also taught Goju Ryu. He used to bring his Goju students to our Aikido class to learn bunkai to thier kata. He said that every Aikido technique is in Goju Ryu. I don't know that I've seen every AIkido technique. But so far, all the Aikido techniques I've seen are part of Goju Ryu.

Perhaps wait until you attain Shodan in Aikido and then seek Goju training.

TyroneTurner
21st July 2004, 20:09
There are a lot of great recommendations here. I hope that you find something thay you're comfortable with. While I can understand the reasoning of those that say wait a year or until you're a shodan before cross-training, I respectfully disagree.

I suggest that you take up Western Boxing. Hey, I read in one of Gozo Shioda Sensei's books that "Aikido is 70% atemi." Western Boxing is the king of striking arts (with hands). Also you learn a lot of pivots and will develop better balance that will help you with your Aikido footwork. You'll get to practice not being there (evasion) is better that trying to grab the punching arm. Generally, it is very difficult to grab a crisp jab.

Contrary to popular opinion, boxers quickly realize that being relaxed (not limp) is the key to speed, power, and accuracy. The best boxers that you'll see are the ones who are more relaxed - they have developed 'fudoshin'.

Go with Boxing. It is very underrated.

Good luck to you and your training.

Shin Buke
27th July 2004, 06:10
My apologies for this very delayed reply. I've been attending a rather vigorous TESOL course these past few weeks and haven't really had the time to do much other than sleep and study.

Anyway, I just want to thank everyone who has contributed to the thread thus far. I appreciate all of your input, it has helped me greatly in figuring out the path my martial training will take.


Mr. Tisdale,

Thank you especially for the info about John Stevens. He sounds like a great option for me when I'm Sendai as I will have plenty of time to train every day. I've been doing some reasearch on him and he seems like a very accomplished Aikido practitioner.

Thank you all again!

Ron Tisdale
27th July 2004, 16:19
Hi Anthony,

just call me Ron. Stevens Sensei is best known for his writing, but I can tell you from personal experience that he is a blast to train with. Some others here have trained with him or attended seminars...they might also give you their impressions.

Best of luck,
Ron

Kurokawa
4th August 2004, 08:52
As a past Akidoka I know that the movments in Aikido are a little out of context , some of the techniques require special circumstances in order to perform well, but the basic consept of Aikido is good, I recently have been training in Ninpo and the basic element is the same, to take the force and direction of the uke and make it usless, in ninpo we are always taught "never stand in the enemys attack"