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Louis Butto
1st July 2004, 15:06
I've practicing Daito Ryu for awhile in Japan, and in theory, we really shouldn't need so much physical power to have our techniques be effective. Yet, I have wonderful senior in the Dojo who is quite big and experienced, and no matter what technique I apply to him(kotegeashi, etc) he won't budge. Apart from aiki techniques which are another story, I find there will always be someone stronger and bigger than you, so what is one to do? Anything suggestions?

Cady Goldfield
1st July 2004, 15:16
If he isn't budging, it may be because you're not doing your waza correctly, and he is not "tanking" for you. That is a good thing, as it means that he expects you to work through your mistakes and find the correct route to moving him.

Thought to ponder: YOU may be the person who is using muscle instead of applying principle.

Louis Butto
1st July 2004, 15:28
Good point. Often my techniques are effective, but in his case they certainly aren't. So you are correct to point out that he is teaching me something indirectly. In our dojo, no one takes falls unless the technique works. Yet it made me ponder the fact that there are always heavier, bigger and stronger people. What kind of principles are you eluding too?

cxt
1st July 2004, 15:44
Louis


It was very much "tounge in cheek" advice but I was always told that if your throwing or takedown techniques were not working.

"Then your not hitting him hard enough PRIOR to the throw."

Again, the person who said it was NOT really being serious.


Chris Thomas

Cady Goldfield
1st July 2004, 15:56
Louis, if you are studying Daito-ryu, then you are training in a principle-based art. Think about what makes your techniques work.

As to size and strength, others have had this discussion many times in many forums. It comes down to a basic truth: Given two individuals of equal skill and strategic ability, the one with the greater mass will have that as an additional advantage. However, no situation or combat circumstance is completely predictable or black-and-white. Outside the ritual bounds of the dojo, there are so many factors involved in making a technique or tactics work, that size and strength are not always the final deciding part of the equation.

In the dojo, when practicing, it's your golden opportunity to find out what does work against a larger, stronger opponent. It is your responsibility to experiment. Your partner is giving you that opportunity.

Eric Joyce
1st July 2004, 16:52
Originally posted by Cady Goldfield
If he isn't budging, it may be because you're not doing your waza correctly, and he is not "tanking" for you. That is a good thing, as it means that he expects you to work through your mistakes and find the correct route to moving him.

Thought to ponder: YOU may be the person who is using muscle instead of applying principle.

Cady,

Totally agree with you on that. Just last night my sensei and I had this similar experience. He illustrated an example of a technique by just using muscle vs. being more relax and pliable. I am a bit bigger than he is and no matter how much I muscled the technique..it didn't work. The more relaxed I was, the more effective the technique became.

Another key point you make is you got to move him. That's so true. If I can resist the technique I will, it's tori job to "move me" and not my job to "tank".

Good discussion thread. Glad E-Budo is back.

Michael Bland
1st July 2004, 21:12
Not forgetting that size and strength DO matter. You said this guy is your "senior", so then realize that size, strength, AND good technique are very hard to overcome.

I have found that all that training gets me are little "tricks" to use to my advantage and they certainly help - especially against opponents of little skill. But in the end, size and strength - while not the only components - seem to be the bigger part of the equation.

-michael

Cady Goldfield
1st July 2004, 21:32
Michael,
Granted. But for the sake of training, if the junior is working on a technique -- and is not advanced enough to be working on countering a senior's counter -- the senior should not be trying to counter the junior's technique. He should only be offering resistence so the junior has to do his waza correctly.

Cady Goldfield
1st July 2004, 21:34
Michael,
Granted. But for the sake of training, if the junior is working on a technique -- and is not advanced enough to be working on countering a senior's counter -- the senior should not be trying to counter the junior's technique. He should only be offering resistance so the junior has to do his waza correctly.

Nathan Scott
1st July 2004, 22:58
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Mitch Saret
1st July 2004, 23:17
Don't forget distraction. One of the easiest ways to get kuzushi is by a distraction movement. Ususally a strike of some type, but not necessarily.

Go back to kote gaeshi. While trying to twist his wrist, and his focus is on merely not letting you twist it, tap his shin with the bottom of your foot, as in ashi barai. It doesn't have to be hard, but it should distract him enough to allow the technique to work.

Nathan Scott
1st July 2004, 23:27
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Louis Butto
2nd July 2004, 01:17
Thanks all for your thoughtful replies.

Kuzushi is absolutely an important principle to work on, but in this case I'm dealing with someone who is HEAVY (sumo ring a bell) , so I haven't reached enlightenment with Kuzushi yet.

I'm not sure what realignment, nor internal alignment is. Probably I just know it by other terms or experience. Taisabaki is more used in Aikido than Daito Ryu, at least where I practice, because we have limited space, and just drop them close to your body. Hisa sensei would often quote Takeda sensei as saying that all you need is one tatami mat.

Leverage is interesting. I know it is a Judo basic and very important topic of training. But I ain't putting him on my back.

:D

As you pointed out, most seniors know the reversals, and reversals of reversals. We can keep going ad infinitum.

Chokes are another element. Easier to do on the ground though.

Distraction....now we are getting into aiki techniques..good stuff, but need lots of practice.

We do a sparring practice, but not full contact. So with punches and kicks, grabs, etc. coming at you, it's a good challenge to be able to apply a technique. Timing is important here. But there comes a point where if you experiment too much, injuries are likely to increase.

Thanks

Nathan Scott
2nd July 2004, 02:11
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Mark Jakabcsin
2nd July 2004, 04:48
Originally posted by Louis Butto
Yet, I have wonderful senior in the Dojo who is quite big and experienced, and no matter what technique I apply to him(kotegeashi, etc) he won't budge. Apart from aiki techniques which are another story, I find there will always be someone stronger and bigger than you, so what is one to do? Anything suggestions?

Louis,
Two quick questions. What is your partners body posture at the exact moment you apply the lock/throw? Since you bring up kotegeashi perhaps describe your partners posture the moment you are attempting to twist the wrist.

Along with the posture at the time of locking what is direction of movement of the posture at the time of locking (if any)? I'm not sure if this is clear so I will try to phrase it a second way. Is your opponent in postural equilibrium, OR has his equilibrium just been disrupted and he is moving away from postural equilibrium, OR he has reached the apex of the disrpution and is returning to an equilibrium state? Those are the three general catagories.
mark j.

Louis Butto
2nd July 2004, 06:33
Thanks Mark for your reply. As typical in our sparring, he makes the first move, or offensive, using any variety of attacks--shomen, yokomen, grabs, punches, etc. His posture, or if you mean has he been unbalanced, the answer is "no." It's hard to unbalance him. He is like a rock, but a nice rock. He'll just sit there (actually stand there) as you try to unbalance him or apply any technique. So after his strike he is static. And even if you can get in before the strike has made its course, it is still hard to unbalance and apply a technique. You might want to elaborate on what you mean by "equilibrium," if it is not related to balance.

Thanks,

Louis

Jim O'Connell
3rd July 2004, 02:45
When they are bigger, it takes longer for the energy to transfer.Be more patient and sensitive.

When they are very strong, balanced, and sensitive - touch them much more softly. Fool the synapses and reach into the center. If you can't feel his center, he doesn't have to move.

Regards,
Jim

Louis Butto
3rd July 2004, 05:47
Jim, good advice, especially when everyone is training to learn together. I agree.

I still think, all being equal, if your partner/opponent has the same background/knowledge, those who are stronger, heavier, etc. will have the advantage.

However, if we look at Sokaku Takeda, if we believe the stories, even into his 70s & 80s, he could drop big 5th dan Judo types and leave them pinned in agony. Takeda was a small guy, and it seems he wasn't the muscle type. (We only know he had big forearms) Yet even Sokaku Takeda has been quoted as saying that we should practice Budo to be strong. And he certainly raised his son Tokimune under such severe training to become strong. Maybe we should redefine what is "strong?"

Thanks,

Nathan Scott
3rd July 2004, 18:52
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MarkF
4th July 2004, 10:59
Originally posted by Jim O'Connell
When they are bigger, it takes longer for the energy to transfer.Be more patient and sensitive.

When they are very strong, balanced, and sensitive - touch them much more softly. Fool the synapses and reach into the center. If you can't feel his center, he doesn't have to move.

Regards,
Jim


This reminds me of guests at our judo dojo when I was young. Most of these guys were huge, but only about 5'6 or 5'7" with trunks about six inches high with a center half way to the room below.

It is frustrating, but the above advice is about as good as it gets. Eventually, you will work it out. No matter what, however, all things being equal, size matters, but in how you play the game, not necessarily is it an advantage, but it took me a while to move these Brick outhouses.

Basically, I'm agreeing with Cady and Nathan, too.


Mark

Louis Butto
4th July 2004, 14:24
Of course I'm not discouraged. I was just wanting to know how you all faced similiar challenges. I've been plugging away at these "Brick outhouses" for awhile. It's quite enjoyable. They are not so bad.

However, there were a few guys who like to experiment on you and perfect their technique, while your their guinea pig. That is OK when they are average build, but when you got a big strong muscle man type, it gets painful. Besides the constant bruises, sprained ligaments and so on, I was told to "suck it up" by this one senior. Of course, that was when I was just a yellow belt in the beginning days. If you don't want any injuries, what does one do with those types? It is true that if you want to perfect your technique, sometimes you have to go to the edge.:confused:

Arman
4th July 2004, 20:52
If you're trying to do kotegaeshi and your uke is not unbalanced, forget it. Doesn't matter how big either one of you happens to be, or who is stronger.

Having said that, some people don't respond well to every unbalancing principle embedded in kata. Some peoples joints are funny, some are just built a little differently, some may just be too strong for a particular method/application. This is where the improvisation and experimentation comes about that everybody here is talking about. Play with the kata, see what works and what doesn't. For example, I imagine if you strike to the face/throat region prior to the kotegaeshi, it would provide you with an opening for kuzushi, if not unbalance him directly. (I don't suggest you actally hit your uke, just simulate it and see what happens) There are a lot of other unbalancing methods you can play with, as I'm sure you know. But if you're trying the technique and your uke is just standing there smiling at you . . .stop and try again, or try something different. He's giving you a golden opportunity to learn.

Best regards,
Arman Partamian

PS As an aside, a good training method for playing with kuzushi is to work against your uke while he "boxes" with you. By this I mean he take a standard boxing stance, and throw jabs and hooks, etc. Good stance for a boxer means never over-extending the body on punches, so this is a great training method for kuzushi purposes, maai sensitivity, and also for timing.

Jim O'Connell
4th July 2004, 21:10
"I still think, all being equal, if your partner/opponent has the same background/knowledge, those who are stronger, heavier, etc. will have the advantage."

I think that was the premise that started this, and its somewhat a defacto statement - otherwise why train in Daito Ryu or any other martial art that stresses skill acquisition over muscle acquisition?
Could it be that knives, swords, and guns (around since the 1600's)are not as easily overcome by stronger opponents? There is a hint there.

Some options for dealing with this situation that come to mind:
Go to prison and hit the weight pile under threat and reality of constant pain, injuty, and suffering. (Assuming that there are even worse things than being beaten or killed).Commonly refered to in the neighborhood I gew up in as a "prison plan".

Get younger, stronger, bigger, faster.....oh no, I'm past forty and I'm just trying not to loose those things too quickly, except of course on of the "bigger" things called fat.....

Get more background and knowledge by learning more. Gain an advantage over size and strength. Use heiho and application of
principle. Have more faith.

Ok, here is a more practically stated solution to the problem: Find the oldest, smallest, slowest, person that can easily beat that big guy and ask him/her to train or transfer that knowledge to you. Put trust in what they teach you and even though it flies in the face of current reasoning... have faith and practice, preactice, practice.

I have watched Don Angier Sensei put Big Tony Alvarez on the ground (hand to hand - no steel bars, firearms, or chemicals). That's impossible.

Regards,
Jim

Plaese note:all these statements are made tongue in cheek and not in any derogatory fashion. I too have trouble with bigger and stronger opponents/training partners with equal or greater skill....I have consigned myself to a lifetime of training as a solution.

Mark Jakabcsin
6th July 2004, 03:29
Louis,

You have already received some good advice from a number of posters. I will try to avoid repeating that advice by fleshing out some other thoughts on the subject. The following will be general in nature and done in broad brush strokes, it is not intended to be a definitive work. It will be up to you to fill in the detail and context of application. Hopefully you will find something of use.

Posture, balance disturbance and balance break: While all of these terms are related, each has it’s own definition and relationship to throwing and controlling. I notice that in your previous posts you continually use the last term, balance break or broken. Breaking someone’s balance is an end result, which terminates with the individual falling to the ground. Often the term balance break is used in place of balance disturbance, which is incorrect. Some may see this as semantics, but understanding the difference between the two is paramount in understanding the mechanics.

At this point I also want add the term balance equilibrium to the discussion, it will provide a framework for the discussion of the above terms. Let’s begin by considering a person standing upright in a natural, defenseless stance or shizen hontai (basic natural posture). The person is erect, arms at the side, weight evenly distributed across both feet that are roughly shoulder width apart. Apply slight pressure, backwards, to the person’s forehead, the individual can maintain his posture but will lean slightly backwards and the weight distribution across each foot has changed toward the heel. When the pressure is removed the individual will immediately readjust to his original position. Apply the pressure to the side of the head and once again the person can make the adjustment, maintain his posture but change the weight distribution across the foot and between the feet. Note when the pressure is removed, the individual WILL automatically return to their original position. No thought is required for this automatic adjustment to the original posture, we simply do it.

This original posture that one automatically returns to once the outside force is removed is the point of balance equilibrium. For simplicity the example above covers the most basic of postures, shizen hontai, however the concept of balance equilibrium can be used with any posture. Humans automatically assume a posture they perceive as the most efficient to resist gravity and accomplish their intended work. When a small outside force affects the body, the body automatically adjusts, once the force is removed the body automatically adjusts back to the original posture. Most folks don’t walk around leaning oddly to one side or the other.

One important point to stress before we continue is that the forces I am talking about are very small. If the outside force is too great the person will be forced to take a step and hence find a new equilibrium position in a slightly different geographic place. While at times this might be useful or desirable, it is not part of the present topic. We don’t want uke to adjust by taking a step, we want uke to move within his original posture and position.

The forces to be applied need to be large enough to cause a shift out of balance equilibrium but small enough not to cause the person to step. This subtle shifting of ones balance out of equilibrium is what I would call a balance disturbance or disturbing one’s balance. The balance hasn’t been broken because the person is able to effectively resist gravity. When a person’s balance is broken, he can not resist gravity and falls.

If we look at the example above a little more closely we realize that by applying a small force or balance disturbance to an individual we receive TWO separate but consistent actions. First the person makes the small adjustment to the force to maintain his posture and position, then when the force is removed he will automatically adjust back to his original position. Hence we have controlled two of uke’s motions and the second motion is predictable, hence usable. Note this returning to equilibrium is heightened when agitated, scared or aggressive. This return to equilibrium plays a prominent role in Okamoto Sensei’s principle of conditioned response. We are all conditioned to return to an equilibrium balance position and when we feel threatened our response tends to be faster and more aggressive.

Before we move onto some basic theory on how this applies to throwing I want to introduce the term apex of balance disturbance. The apex of balance disturbance is the point of greatest adjustment from the original external force applied, i.e. the point furthest from equilibrium. This point is very important when understanding how to use the above theory.

I also want to point out that since we are dealing with living creatures the force applied to create the disturbance isn’t limited to a physical force. The force applied can be a ‘perceived’ force or threat that causes uke to adjust to a force he believes he is about to receive.

Applying balance theory to throws: The concept is simple and rather limitless in possibilities. Roughly it goes something like this; apply a force to disturb a person’s balance in one direction; wait for them to reach the apex of that disturbance; as the person is in the process of returning to his balance equilibrium apply a technique in the direction of uke’s return to equilibrium. Hence you are using uke’s motion of returning to equilibrium to power the throw or technique. The technique applied is what ultimately breaks uke’s balance, but without the initial disturbance it is darn near impossible to successfully apply technique. The exception is when you are vastly stronger than your opponent and can simply muscle them to the ground.

A couple of notes for consideration: The above theory means that you will normally move uke a small amount in the opposite direction of the intended throw or technique. Note this set-up works for more than just throwing and can be used in joint locking. Using uke’s weight and power against his own joints is a beautiful thing.

Also note that the force applied is not limited to linear motions. Frankly circular forces and motions have numerous advantages over linear motions and forces. Sensitivity and patience are necessary to FEEL when uke has reached the apex of the balance disturbance and is returning to equilibrium. If one attempts to throw in the opposite direction of the initial disturbance but uke is still moving towards the apex, uke’s weight will counteract the throw instead of powering the throw. Wait to long and uke regains equilibrium then you are back at square one and must start over. Likewise it takes sensitivity to apply just the right amount of force, if uke steps due to the initial disturbing force then he has regained his equilibrium in a different position and you must start over.

A person’s size doesn’t change the theory above it only makes the timing and sensitivity issue more important. Very large people tend to move much more guardedly than normal or simply big people. A large person might be someone around 6’4” 250lbs, this isn’t a VERY large person and their movement tends to be like the rest of us. When I say very large I mean people with a weight to height ration that makes gravity a large strain to their structure, generally 350+ lbs. Although I have trained with short 280 pounders that act in a similar fashion to the huge guys. Obviously there is a height/weight ratio as well as physical condition factor to consider. When someone is so large that their joints are straining from simple movement then they fall into the very large category.

Due to the physical demands of being so large, these folks learn every day not to over commit their weight or break their posture. An over extension of weight puts tremendous strain on joints that are already carrying a heavy load. Hence very large people tend to be very well centered and don’t give away that center or balance. Secondly, due to their large mass each fraction of an inch out of equilibrium is magnified by their mass.
Therefore very large people will feel balance disturbance sooner, react to correct the disturbance sooner and seek equilibrium faster. All of this equals a much smaller apex of disturbance. The end result is to work on very large people your motions must be smaller and you must realize that their reaction back to equilibrium will be sooner and adjust your timing correctly. The window of success is tiny, get it wrong and you won’t be able to budge the big guy. When this happens I find they generally smile right before they squish me.

A good drill to learn many of these points is to stand facing your big uke. Uke’s role is to simply stand in place. Tori grabs uke with one hand on both sides of the waist. Grabbing the belt is good. Tori then slowly, very slowly rocks uke back onto his heels, go to far and uke will fall backwards. Once uke is balanced on his heels, tori can rotate uke’s hips with some degree of ease, again when uke becomes unbalanced the weight shifts very rapidly and uke will either fall or need to step. I recommend doing this drill with different sized people; you will find the range of motion or apex of disturbance to be different. Done over time, this drill is an excellent sensitivity drill to learn how far different people can move and signs of someone at their apex.

Louis, this has all been a long winded way of saying you probably need to move your large uke a small amount in on direction and when he readjusts back towards equilibrium you apply your technique in the same direction. This will require a fair amount of sensitivity and timing. Of course without actually seeing you, this is all speculation.

I realize all of this is fairly simplistic and many readers will say 'big deal this is basic kuzushi.' I agree it is a part of basic kuzushi. My reason for writing is that during my travels I find frighteningly few folks that can discuss kuzushi after they use the term. Simply saying kuzushi is breaking someone’s balance is an incomplete picture, not that this post is a complete picture, it ain’t. Simply a little more detail.

Hopefully a few readers have found my long-winded rambling of some use. Take care.

mark j.

szczepan
6th July 2004, 04:07
Very interesting post Mark, but unfortunately, it is useless, this will be always only a theory. Applications against "live" ppl are much more complicated,
1.they are in motion(always ajusting his balance),
2.they have a lot of experience and can "absorb"(by redistributing your force inside of their body) more then young wolves can give.
3.they know in advance what young one will try to do --> they did same things few years ago.

I see no hope for Luis.

Louis Butto
6th July 2004, 05:33
Let us not say "no hope" since we must keep trying. Mark, I understand very well what you are saying. That window of opportunity is very small, so as you put it, your timing and sensitivity must be excelent and flexible. Training like this is very fruitful, but I think it takes patience. If you could recommend more exercises or material, that would be useful. However, Szczepan brings up a few good points which I have noticed myself. People will continue to re-adjust their balance, which then would make it necessary for you to continously keep applying small forces till you get it. Thanks for your detailed comments.

Mark Jakabcsin
6th July 2004, 14:38
Originally posted by Louis Butto
People will continue to re-adjust their balance, which then would make it necessary for you to continously keep applying small forces till you get it. Thanks for your detailed comments.

Louis,
Hence the advantage of applying force in a circular fashion instead of linear. A centrifugal force has a constantly changing force vector, when used correctly uke can be made to continually adjust to the changing vector (kinda like chasing the motion). This can be seen on a few video's available IF you understand what you are looking at.

The theory given earlier is in it's simpliest form, with a person standing erect and not moving independently. The theory does work on moving and attacking individuals, although it is more difficult and isn't so neat or simple. To understand the more dynamic version one must first fully understand the static version. It is up to you to figure it out, i.e. if you want it, earn it.

mark j.

ps. szczepan, I see your willingness to contribute on topics you don't know anything about continues. Please tell us again how not one single Koryu has randori. That bit of short bus wisdom was one of my favorites.