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glad2bhere
27th October 2000, 18:47
I raise these questions following a visit to Mantiss Swords website.

Has anyone first hand experience with the quality (appearance; durability) of these swords?

For sale on this website are mats rolled specifically for cutting. Does anyone still construct their own targets of straw?

Is there a cutting technique in competition which requires a rising straight cut from beneath the target rather than a descending straight cut from above?

Best Wishes,
Bruce

Nathan Scott
27th October 2000, 19:05
Hi Bruce - how 'bout an URL?


For sale on this website are mats rolled specifically for cutting. Does anyone still construct their own targets of straw?

Those that have access to straw! :) It is not prepared quite the same way as tatami omote, though. Straw is messy, but looks cool to cut because the cut ends of the straw and wider girth of the targets causes the cut half to "hang" longer. This allows you to make additional cuts on the free piece, noto before it falls, or in some cases the free piece will not fall after being cut. Fun.


Is there a cutting technique in competition which requires a rising straight cut from beneath the target rather than a descending straight cut from above?

I'd be surprised to hear that there is, since it would be quite awkward with a sword (though, not with a Naginata). There is a "torii" block/pushing cut I've seen performed, but I don't see how you could cut mats with such a technique.

Regards,

glad2bhere
27th October 2000, 20:56
The URL is
http://www.mantisswords.com.

The reason I asked about the cut is that there is a sequence which appears in a number of Hwa Rang Kumdo forms (including the well-known Bon Kuk Kum Bop form of Shilla fame) in which a person in Middle Guard Position facing the 12 o'clock position swings the sword down past the forward leg and into an ascending cut as he pivots on the ball of the rear foot. The follow-up to this ascending cut performed at the 6 o'clock position is almost invariably a straight descending cut. Some part of me can see a martial application but I have often wondered if it would be possible to generate sufficient cutting power from that angle?

One other point that crossed my mind after I sent along the other questions. Is there also a form of competition that focuses on the piercing, or thrusting techniques along with all the cutting thats done?

OK, nuff, questions,

Bruce

Nathan Scott
27th October 2000, 23:03
Actually, in my school there is "thrust testing", but I think this is generally not practiced these days.

I went to the web page, and it appears that Mantis Swords is yet another company marking up Chen products and reselling them. The mats they sell may (or may not) be O.K., but they come across very amatuerish on the web page (even tameshigiri is misspelled).

The mats sold at tameshigiri.com are good quality and cheaper than what these guys sell them for, FWIW.

Good luck,

ghp
27th October 2000, 23:12
n which a person in Middle Guard Position facing the 12 o'clock position swings the sword down past the forward leg and into an ascending cut as he pivots on the ball of the rear foot.

You are describing "gyaku-kesagiri" -- reversed priest robe cut. The priest robe hangs from the left shoulder, diagonally down to the right hip. It is also called "naname giri", or "diagonal cut."

The rising cut (gyaku kesagiri) is alternately called "kiri-age"(cutting up) or "gyaku kesa joho giri" (reversed kesa, upwards cut), or "joho giri" (upper cut).

Your teacher's teacher probably studied battodo from Nakamura sensei, or some of his Korean students. One student (who wears a Korean outfit) has a web page about "kumdo" in which he shows tameshigiri (test cutting). If this is your teacher, I've met him a few time when he visited Nakamura sensei. He was subordinate to Dr. Lee (kendo 8th dan, Korea Kumdo Federation).

Regards,
Guy

Nathan Scott
27th October 2000, 23:27
Bruce-san, FWIW there's a big difference between a "rising straight cut" and a "rising diagonal cut". It sounds like your actually asking about a rising diagonal cut which is common in many cutting styles.

In Shinkendo we cut multiple targets; front to back, side to side, etc. using a variety of cuts. Good training, but takes careful practice to learn correctly (and safely). I'm all in favor of finding qualified instruction, if you don't already have it.

Regards,

glad2bhere
28th October 2000, 02:15
Dear Guy:

Thanks for the help. I have kept several books on various styles of Japanese swordsmanship in the hopes that I would be able to reference one or more, or use its nomeclature to discuss technique. Frustrating part is that rarely do any two styles (ryu) use the same terms. It would be great to identify a couple of works that we could agree on, yes? Currently I have DEITY AND THE SWORD (1&2), KENJUTSU SHODAN,
KENDO- THE DEFINITIVE STUDY, JAPANESE SWORDSMANSHIP, and both books by Suino, ART OF JAPANESE SWORDSMANSHIP, and PRACTICE DRILLS FOR JAPANESE SWORDSMANSHIP. That should make a start if I can kind equivalents to the Korean technique we practice.

Nathan-san:

The travel of the blade as it swings through in the cut is directly up from the floor to the ceiling, though we have several turning cuts that are struck at both shallow (30 degree) angles and deep (60 degree) angles, both rising and descending. The sense I have of the cut is that it would be executed with some part of the same biomechanic as an olympian throwing the hammer though certainly with a much greater vertical angle.

Thanks for looking at the website. If the blades are actually more of the Chen material then I'm back to the "stainless steel" site and probably on to Bugei. I have had an opportunity to talk to James and felt he had a very good handle on what I was looking for.

I'd still like to see what we can do about this nomeclature thing, yes?

BTW: Are there any training opportunities coming up for Shinkendo in the near future? I had to pass on the seminars in Iowa.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Nathan Scott
30th October 2000, 20:00
Hi,


The travel of the blade as it swings through in the cut is directly up from the floor to the ceiling, though we have several turning cuts that are struck at both shallow (30 degree) angles and deep (60 degree) angles, both rising and descending. The sense I have of the cut is that it would be executed with some part of the same biomechanic as an olympian throwing the hammer though certainly with a much greater vertical angle.

Hmmm, guess I'd have to see it!


BTW: Are there any training opportunities coming up for Shinkendo in the near future? I had to pass on the seminars in Iowa.

Obata Soke is in Europe right now, but will be going to Alabama as soon as he gets back (beginning of November) if that helps.

We try to keep our seminars page updated on our main page, but everyone has not been terrribly responsible with sending me the updates!

Regards,

glad2bhere
6th November 2000, 17:51
Has anyone had any further thoughts on what resources we can use as a basis for identifying and discussing sword techniques in this forum?

best Wishes,
Bruce

Nathan Scott
6th November 2000, 18:53
Hi Bruce-san,

After giving the matter much thought, I had an crazy idea:

We could use English! :D

* r/l downward digonal cut, l/r upward diagonal cut

* straight cut

* thrust

It's probably the only way to communicate without misunderstanding. Sword styles use different names, and are not interested in using common terminology as a policy.

Originally, different names were used to mask the essense of the techniques being taught. Should a makimono from the school get stolen or discovered by someone, they would not be able to decipher the tactics taught by the tradition and create counters to them.

Why don't we just use English if it is too confusing to understand?

Regards,

glad2bhere
6th November 2000, 21:10
Sounds good to me. English it is. And then I also have pics from the various manual projects I am doing for GM Koo so that can always be a fallback position for the really involved questions. Are there limits to pics that can go on these message pages. A typical page of text in our manuals will usually hold perhaps as many as five 1.2 X 1.7 pics or about 3-400 kb each picture.If nothing else perhaps it will be entertaining to observe a 50-something parading about in a dress with a big stick. Now theres' a picture to keep you up late at night.....

Best Wishes,
Bruce