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Earl Hartman
13th June 2000, 22:49
While this post is bound to be controversial, I thought that in the interests of historical research it would be valuable to report on a conversation I had recently while on a business trip to Japan.

As those of you who have read my past posts on this subject already know, I trained in MJER Iai Heiho under the late Masaoka Kazumi Sensei when I lived in Japan many years ago. A few years ago, I made the acquaintance of a fellow MJER practitoner here in the States and was surprised to see how many differences there were in the way we did the techniques. Intrigued by this, I started to look into why this was; asking about it on e-budo, reading, and making phone calls, etc.

During my last business trip to Japan, I spoke with Noda Toru Sensei, Masaoka Sensei's senior deshi. He still lives in Kochi City and still practices iai. He is one of only two men to have received the Kongen no Maki (the MJER version of menkyo kaiden) from Masaoka Sensei (I did not catch the name of the other recipient).

Anyway, I got the following information from him regarding the transmission of MJER, and a few other things:

1. Kongen no Maki vs. Lineal Headmaster/Soke

Kongen no Maki is the highest level of certification in MJER. Oe Masamichi transmitted the Kongen no Maki to 5 or 6 men, apparently. The recipients that I know of are Hokiyama S., Masaoka S., and Mori S. According to Noda S., there is nothing over and above the Kongen no Maki in MJER to differentiate any of the holders of the Kongen no Maki from one another. Thus, all of these men can, and should, be considered the legitimate 18th generation of the school. According to Noda S., MJER has never had a single soke. Kono Hyakuren S., was, apparently, the first to refer to himself as such. As I have said before, I never heard Masaoka S. refer to himself as the 18th soke.

2. Differences in Nukitsuke

I explained to Noda S. the differences I had seen in the way people did nukitsuke, primarily the degree of hip rotation. The ZNIR practitoners I have seen face almost completely straight forward at the nukitsuke, using very little hip rotation (to my eyes, anyway), whereas Masaoka S. taught me to rotate my hips significantly. Noda S. offered the following explanation, which is so elegant in its simplicity that it has, for me at least, the ring of real truth:

Oe S. was, apparently, a very large and strong man, yet he preferred short swords. Thus, he was able to draw effectively with little hip rotation, with the result that at the completion of nukitsuke his body was facing squarely to the front for the most part, with some opening to the left, but not to a pronounced degree. This is confirmed by Iwata Norikazu S. in his various writings.

Masaoka S., on the other hand, was a small man (I remember him being only about 5'2" or thereabouts). Thus, he required more hip rotation to draw effectively. That is, the fundamental mechanics of the draw were the same, but each person would adapt them to the requirements of the interplay of blade length and individual physique. I can't speak for others, but this seems to me to fit in very nicely with my experience of the Japanese principle of "ringi ouhen", or adapting as necessary to the circumstances. The fundamentals always remain, but in order to be true principles they must not be adhered to as dogmas of physical form but live and change with the prevailing circumstances (only up to a point of course; where the line is crossed is often a matter of opinion, it seems).

Anyway, I thought that people on the list, especially the MJER practitioners, would find this information interesting.

Earl Hartman

Gil Gillespie
14th June 2000, 05:19
Hello, Earl

It's great to see you posting again. We haven't heard much from you since The Crash. I can't see how your post could be controversial given the seriousness of your roots, but there's been a lot of spontaneous combustion lately. . .

What a lasting honor training with Masaoka Sensei must have been. At the MJERI seminar scheduled for Labor Day weekend in San Diego Miura Hanshi is scheduled to visit, which is probably old news to a Californian, along with his pending honors in Japan.

I was heartened to read your comment on various approaches to nukitsuke, and the latitude within which correctness is acknowledged. I have always employed hip rotation & honestly been a little uncomfortable with the static draw. I was originally instructed that in addition to clearing the koiguchi the hip rotation empowered the cut mechanically, in the same way a karateka pulls his left hand while throwing a right punch.

Iaido mechanics provide an endless fascination. I equate them to an automatic transmission with thousands of moving parts that have to be right so there is no CLUNK.With each seminar it seems there are adjustments and tweakings, even in a koryu such as MJERI. I'm encouraged to see someone with your background dealing with all this, too!

Earl Hartman
14th June 2000, 21:32
Gil:

I am flattered by your comments, but I hasten to point out that for people who are seriously studying iai on a regular basis, I would undoubtedly be considered an armchair general. I occasionally practice the iai that I learned while referring to Masaoka Senesei's book, but I cannot claim any particular accomplishment in iai (I got a shodan a LONG time ago). After Masaoka Sensei's sudden death all those years ago I got disheartened when his successor promptly set about changing a number of things that Masaoka Sensei taught us; and I really haven't pursued iai actively since. As I said before, I breifly practiced with an MJER practitioner of the ZNIR line of MJER, but his iai was so different from what I had been taught, it was difficult to practice together. I think he sensed it too, so we stopped working together. It was my experience with him that prompted my research, which has proven to be very interesting and educational.

It was indeed a great honor to train with Masaoka Sensei. It is one of my treasured memories from my (mostly misspent) youth. I wish I had been more aware of the uniqueness of my situation at the time. But as they say, youth is wasted on the young.

As far as what is correct is concerned, you have to believe that whatever your teacher tells you is what is correct. If you elect to train with a new teacher who does things differently from your old teacher, you have only two choices: listen to your new teacher or respectfully take your leave of him.

Good luck on the San Diego seminar with Miura Sensei. I'd like to hear about it.

Earl

Gil Gillespie
15th June 2000, 17:21
Earl:

Your perspective on Masaoka speaks to the importance of the personal instructor over the style. Several of my Aikido colleagues years ago fell into an informal affiliation with a senior in Itto Tenshin Ryu who would frequently visit Orlando on business from New Mexico. Suddenly he stopped coming and we learned later that he passed away.

So we drifted for a few years until formally affiliating with MJERI under Shimabukuro Sensei from San Diego and his "east coast liason" Carl Long from Pennsylvania. I had to make that choice you referred to. And it became easier over time as their excellence as men and budoka manifested. Now we look forward to their visits and in the dojo 4-6 hours fly by & we don't want it to end.

I don't know if I'll be able to pull off the logistics of San Diego seminar. Carl's coming back in July & he'll find out how much he loves Florida!! Phew!

Best regards,
Gil

Daniel Pokorny
19th June 2000, 17:44
Earl,

I also study MJERI along with Gil. In regard to nukitsuke and the rotation of the hips, I noticed that my nukitsuke seemed to end without much hip rotation while doing waza, however that changed dramatically when I actually tried to cut. After several failed attempts using mainly my arm and little hip, I learned that I must use a lot more hip rotation and less arm in order to cut cleanly. I'm probably just a little over average in size and strength. 5'10'' 210lbs. (fairly lean), but I personally believe the size is less of a factor while proper movement is.

What is difficult for me is to maintain that actual feeling of the cut while doing waza. I know the technique should be the same whether doing waza or cutting, but I guess I have a ways to go before it is so with me anyway.


Regards,

Daniel C. Pokorny

Earl Hartman
20th June 2000, 01:03
Gil and Daniel:

I was checking out your Shindai Aikido dojo website and was intrigued to see that one of your instructors, Dr. David Jones (pardon me if I got his name wrong) has a shodan rank in kyudo.

I would be very interested in knowing whether he is aware of, or interested in, the activities of the American Kyudo Renmei (AKR). The AKR is the official US representative of the All Nippon Kyudo Federation (ANKF) and has 7 member federations: Northern Calif., So. Calif, Texas, Indiana, North Carolina, South Carolina, and Georgia. There are small affiliated branches in Seattle, Nevada, and Arizona. (The kyudo groups in Hawaii have elected to remain independent of the AKR.) The AKR President is Mr. Dan DeProspero, Renshi 6th dan, and the author of "Kyudo, The Essence and Practice of Japanese Archery". Our 7th annual seminar, with 75 participants from all over the country, just finished in Indianapolis a few weeks ago. Next year the seminar will be held here in Northern Calif.

Anyway, for what it's worth.

Earl

Dan Harden
20th February 2002, 03:38
Another from the archives.
I had a friend of mine try to explain the complicated history of the art to me tonight.
I for one am still hoping that the paired forms that have been mentioned get preserved. Seems too valuable to lose.

Dan

Scott Irey
20th February 2002, 07:22
I generally stay out of this conversation Dan, but in response to your "repeated" statements of hoping the paired forms are preserved...
They are alive and doing well in the various MJER organizations, contrary to popular "e-belief"

Dan Harden
20th February 2002, 13:01
Thanks Scot

I don't have any belief regarding the arts forms since I don't know a dang thing about em. A while back I was inquiring as to whether the full and complete syllibus was alive. If you go read it -YOU-guys, that is, those in it- said that while they are around the teachers are few and several replied that it is mainly a solo kata art for most people. Others said that percentagewise even if you took the entire art as a whole-the number of paired forms are relatively small in number so given that it would still be basically a solo kata art.
This fellow Carl Long seems to post the most clear, detailed and balanced answers about the art that I have seen.
If it is your experience that the paired forms are alive and doing well in the various orginazations- then I think that is just great.

I thanked everyone for their answers-as I am you.
Thanks again

Dan

Charles Mahan
20th February 2002, 14:57
Earl Hartman wrote:


1. Kongen no Maki vs. Lineal Headmaster/Soke

Kongen no Maki is the highest level of certification in MJER. Oe Masamichi transmitted the Kongen no Maki to 5 or 6 men, apparently. The recipients that I know of are Hokiyama S., Masaoka S., and Mori S. According to Noda S., there is nothing over and above the Kongen no Maki in MJER to differentiate any of the holders of the Kongen no Maki from one another. Thus, all of these men can, and should, be considered the legitimate 18th generation of the school. According to Noda S., MJER has never had a single soke. Kono Hyakuren S., was, apparently, the first to refer to himself as such. As I have said before, I never heard Masaoka S. refer to himself as the 18th soke.


First a disclaimer, as is probably well known already my knowledge of history and lineage is fairly limited. I've never been all that interested in history and lineage.

Within the Seitokai tradition, as I am familiar with it, the Kongen no Maki is one of 3 scrolls held by the head of the system. There is also a sword which is passed down from Soke to Soke.
These four things are required to be Soke. I don't know the names of all the scrolls or anything about the sword. I'm not even positive it's three scrolls. It might only be two, but I have seen a picture of Ikeda-soke's in-home dojo which shows the scrolls on display and a picture of the sword, which is presumably somewhere safe.

As I understand it, the Kongen no Maki are a certification of full transference of the style, and the posession of Kongen no Maki is necessary to hold the office of Soke, but it is not sufficient. The other things are also necessary.

I'm not saying this is the one true way, only that it is the tradition within our organization. Apparently within your tradition and organization things are different.


As for nukitsuke, your explanation pretty much jives with everything that I have heard. You use as much hip rotation as is required, and as little as possible. If the sword is really long, more hip rotation is required, but why swing your hips way out of stance if your sword is short? We agree on something anyway :toast:

Ben Bartlett
20th February 2002, 15:33
From my admittedly limited understanding of the subject, "soke" actually implies that the tradition is handed down through a family, in which case MJER would never have had a soke. There were school scrolls, although the branches of course disagree on how one of the students ended up with those scrolls. :D The sword is news to me. I have enough trouble keeping track of my own branch's history, much less all three of them! :eek:

P.S. To Dan: Yeah, Long-sensei's posts are good, aren't they? It's a good thing they're there, too, otherwise people would only have posts like mine for information, and then we'd all be in trouble. :D