Bo <Kon> vs Sword or Glaive

[AST]

I was rereading Mark Bishops Zen Kobudo, when I came across the comment about a bo vs a sword. Mr Bishop states that the Kobudo arts seem to lack adequate techniques to deal with a sword or glaive. What are other peoples opinions about this supposed gap.

Since many people regard the Kobudo arts as having been created to defend against Satsuma bushi, it does seem strange that they lack techniques against their most common weapons.


Nathan Scott if you read this, I know that Obata Sensei learnt Kobujutsu with Inoue. That with the Shinkendo would probably put you in a very good position to provide me with the answers I'm looking for.

Thanks

[Doug Daulton]

Originally posted by AST
Since many people regard the Kobudo arts as having been created to defend against Satsuma bushi, it does seem strange that they lack techniques against their most common weapons.

IMO ... another common kobudo myth. Please allow me to explain.

According to my research and understanding, Ryukyu kobudo kata and waza were designed to fend against other Ryukyuan weaponry, not the Japanese sword or other mainland weapons. I would assume this myth springs from many demonstrations in the post-war era where mainland Japanese kobudo practitioners like Inoue Motokatsu, Sakagami Ryusho and Hayashi Teruo would demonstrate the potential uses of kobudo weapons against the weapons of the Japanese arsenal (i.e. katana, naginata, etc.)

As I understand it, each of these men had training in one or more mainland traditions and were in a position to evaluate the potential effectiveness of Ryukyuan weapons and tactics against the Japanese blade. Their research resulted in now famous demos and photos which feature sai vs. sword or tonfa vs. naginata.

I do not mean to suggest that the explorations of these men were invalid or worthless. Quite to the contrary, I would expect that any swordsman confronted with the weapons he may face in battle would naturally attempt to discern the relative strengths and weaknesses of said opposing weapons. As such, I'd say that their studies have most likely contributed another important facet to Ryukyu kobudo.

However, I would say the notion that Ryukyu kobudo was, in some manner, devised to defend against the swords of the Satsuma is not, historically speaking, entirely accurate. Certainly, the Ryukyuan people were met with the Japanese blade on many occasions and in these occasions may have met the blade with their own weapons. But they were not, to my knowledge, ever trained in the use of the blade and would not have been in a position to incorporate these defenses into their regular practice. Therefore, any sword-related adjustments to the development of Ryukyu kobudo waza would have been more anecdotal than systematic.

For example, if one has never studied swordsmanship and does not understand at least the basic theories behind the Japanese sword, one would be wary of the entire blade and not just the monouchi or "mouth" (the last 3-5 inches before the kissake or tip of the blade). Sure, the entire length of the blade is sharp and can cut you open like a fish. However the monouchi is the part of the blade most sword schools are trying to lay on their opponents because it is ... according to the physics, design and use of the Japanese sword ... the part of the blade where one achieves the maximum damage with minimum effort.

So without this knowledge, the average Ryukyu kobudoka most likely would be inclined to avoid the whole blade because he could not understand his opponent's mind and tactics. In doing this, he would not give his attention to defending against the most dangerous part of the weapon ... the one designed to kill or maim him. (By the way -- avoiding the entire blade is still a very wise strategy :D ... but perhaps not the most efficient.)

I feel as if I am rambling a bit. Sorry for the circuitous path to my point. Let me just close by saying that I do not think debunking this myth in any way detracts from the value and effectiveness of Ryukyu kobudo. It does however help define it's place and use and helps direct the practitioner in his/her study.

Doug Daulton

PS: My study of the Japanese sword is always in need of enlightenment and correction (as is all of my study :D ) . So if there are any senior swordsmen/women out there who can correct or add to my assumptions here ... I'd certainly welcome your thoughts.

[Edited by Doug Daulton on 10-27-2000 at 07:05 PM]

[Nathan Scott]

Hello,

Interesting discussion.

Actually, I don't have a whole lot to add, I'm afraid. Our bojutsu is taught seperately and in it's entirety as Obata Sensei was taught exactly. As a habit, we don't tend to fool around with sword against other weapons, partly because if you can learn the tactics against one weapon it should not be too difficult to adapt to other weapons of similar ranges. Sword against sword is enough of a problem! :)

But, I have taken occaison to experiment with this kind of thing a little bit. From a swordsman's point of view, I found that it is quite advantageous to cut-up teki's wooden bo in the beginning. This will restrict rapid, sliding hand changes (splintered wood) that are charactersitic of Ryukyu Bojutsu; though not as much in Japanese Bojutsu, and either injure the opponent's hands or at least reduce the effectiveness and speed of their attacks if they try to work around the damage. Another logical tactic is to attempt to take out the front hand/kote of teki, and close in to finish after one hand is incapacitated. I'm sure this is a problem when using wooden weapons against real kama too.

The biggest problem fighting someone with a rokushaku bo is that they have *two ends* to use for striking and blocking, and can also thrust pretty deeply (if they can slide along the haft).

A competant swordsman is very hard to defeat, in my opinion, but a skilled bojutsu-ka would be one opponent that could pull it off if the appropriate tactics were used correctly.

Obviously, avoiding blocks and the katana blade in general is not a bad tactic for the user of a bo - though Shindo Muso ryu Jojutsu does have a very effective hikiotoshi (among other things) against the mune of the opponent's katana that could be used with rokushaku bo as well. The "over/under" motions seen in Ryukyu bojutsu using both ends of the bo can be stressful to block/deflect from a swordsman's perspective, and should be expected and accounted for by the swordsman.

There were a few times in Shinkendo class at the Honbu a long time ago where Obata Sensei told a couple of us to use bo to perform the uchidachi side of our Shinkendo advanced tachiuchi (paired pre-arranged sparring sequences) that is usually done with a bokuto - sword against sword. This was quite challenging at first, but we were surprised to find that the sword attacks and counters could be adapted pretty well using bo techniques. The shidachi side remained the same. It was really interesting, and I've been meaning to fool around with that idea some more. :D

Anyway, I know that's not much help, but that's been my limited experience with this subject so far.

I've always heard that Okinawan's developed the Kobujutsu to defend primarily against Japanese bushi. Don't know much about it's use against other Okinawans.

I'm quite impressed with good Ryukyu Kobudo, but frankly much less impressed with weapon forms found in most Karate. There's a big difference in the weapons handling and fluidity of movement, IMHO.

BTW, the new edition of "Unante" (Hawley Library, John Sells) just came out! It's great - anyone else got it yet?

I'm planning on starting a thread about this when I get a chance.

Happy Halloween,

[AST]

Guys

Thanks for the great repies. Much food for thought there.

It brought me to ponder on a time when a friend and myself did some light sparring in the garden, shinai vs bo. he does kendo so I don't know if it was really appropriate.I found that the move from Soeshi no kon, where you perform an downward strike to the opponents knee with the right, then immeadiately follow it up with a backhand with the lefy worked really well. The shinai would block the downward strike but be unable to respond to the backhand.

Now it worked wonderfully then, but I was thinking, against an experienced swordsman?, against a combat orientated ryu?
What nunances am I not seeing that could be used against me?

Part of the reason for my post.

[Nathan Scott]

Hmmm, maybe the "three foot razor" part?!? :D

Seriously, there are few things more unnerving than facing someone with an edged weapon who knows how to use it.

Really hairy stuff, and no room for error. Controlling the resolve of your spirit would definitely be an area to work on, IMHO.

Regards,

[Sochin]

Can we assume that if the bo could easily defeat a sword that it would have become the weapon of choice ???

[Doug Daulton]

Originally posted by AST
Now it worked wonderfully then, but I was thinking, against an experienced swordsman?, against a combat orientated ryu? What nuances am I not seeing that could be used against me?


Originally posted by Nathan Scott
Hmmm, maybe the "three foot razor" part?!? :D

Practice with a bo against a shinai is not the same as a shinken or even a bokken. I've done it and it gives one a false sense of ma-ai ... even if you are using the string accounting for the blade's edge. Also, the essentially round form of the shinai does not accurately create the physics of a bo/blade encounter.

Aside from the obvious damage that the blade will do to one's flesh on contact, it is important to understand the collateral damage inflicted on the bo or kon. Unless it were tetsuo-bo (iron bo) your weapon will almost assuredly be chewed up, splintered and somewhat shortened by the katana. So, as Nathan indicated, the splinters (large and small) end up in your hands and make you less effective over time, if not immediately. And if you had a tetsuo-bo (more a training than actual combat weapon), it would be to slow to even get on the katana to defend yourself.

If confronted with a katana, the bo man would be best served by trying to avoid the blade ever touching his bo and using it's length advantage to reach the body to kill/incapacitate to opponent or the kote (wrists) to disarm him/her. Bo on blade is, IMO, a disaster waiting to happen.

Nathan mentioned SMR Jo in an earlier post on the subject. In this case, the jo was designed specifically with defense against the sword in mind. (Refer to Diane Skoss' Jo Forum for the history and deeper discussion of the issue). SMR Jo techniques (at least as far as I've been through the curriculum) take careful measures to avoid the cutting edge of the blade from actually touching the jo. This is for the same reasons mentioned here in relation to the bo.

Now ... applying SMR techniques with the bo ... verrry interesting. You'd have to have excellent timing and ma-ai ... but it could work I think ... maybe ... something for me to play with as well.

Also ... I agree with Ted. If it were simple to defeat the blade with the bo ... it would have become the weapon of choice. That said, it is not impossible to do so, just difficult.

Take care.

[Edited by Doug Daulton on 10-30-2000 at 12:19 PM]

[Nathan Scott]

Good points Mr. Daulton, you took the words out of my keyboard:


Practice with a bo against a shinai is not the same as a shinken or even a bokken. I've done it and it gives one a false sense of ma-ai ... even if you are using the string accounting for the blade's edge. Also, the essentially round form of the shinai does not accurately create the physics of a bo/blade encounter.

Thats the point I was alluding to, and your inclusion of the difference in feel between shinai and shinken when making contact is also worth mentioning. (BTW, you know that the string part of the shinai is on *top* - mune side, right?) :)


So, as Nathan indicated, the splinters (large and small) end up in your hands and make you less effective over time, if not immediately. And if you had a tetsuo-bo (more a training than actual combat weapon), it would be to slow to even get on the katana to defend yourself.

Absolutely. Also, if I believed my opponent was skilled with bo, I would make it a point to cut his weapon as much as possible to splinter it up - though I don't know that you'd have the opportunity to pull off a cut that would sever the bo in half.

When a swordsman encounters an opponent with a metal weapon (that could compromise the edge of their katana), the side/shinogi of the blade will be used when possible to deflect attacks in order to prolong the life of the katana.

But, if the opponent has a wooden weapon, we can deflect and block fully with the edge, which not only damages their weapon, but also allows us the best leverage with the sword with respects to our grip. It is easier to move with speed and confidence when your not concerned with cracking your sword edge and the grip is aligned with teki's attack (Sorry, a little hard to explain).


Nathan mentioned SMR Jo in an earlier post on the subject. In this case, the jo was designed specifically with defense against the sword in mind.

Now ... applying SMR techniques with the bo ... verrry interesting. You'd have to have excellent timing and ma-ai ... but it could work I think

Yep, that's a fact. SMR is a unique, effective and refined method. I've seen some senior exponents performing tachi/jo kata, and I could see where it would be *possible* to be defeated by a highly skilled Jo person.

Muso Gonnosuke (SMR founder) was supposed to have been an exponent of Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto ryu, and was apparently known for his skill with the bo. Legend has it that he a friendly duel with the famous Musashi Miyamoto in which Musashi used bokuto (two, I think) and Muso used rokushaku bo. Muso was defeated, and as a result developed the Jo waza to defeat the methods of the sword. Those that know the story better please feel free to append/correct the above!

Interestingly, the Bo did not win against the sword (or in this case a long and short sword combination), and more so - the swords were wooden! Of course this is all legend, but...

As an afterthought, I'd mention that I wouldn't be opposed to trying to fake the Bo-opponent into a block so that I could seize the bo with my left hand and quickly pull myself in to injure the opponent with the sword in my right. A six foot bo is not as efficient with one hand, whereas a katana can be used fairly effectively still!

Regards,

[Doug Daulton]

Mr. Scott ...


(BTW, you know that the string part of the shinai is on *top* - mune side, right?) :)
In truth ... no, I did not know that. Now I do. Thanks.

though I don't know that you'd have the opportunity to pull off a cut that would sever the bo in half.
Agreed. Katana against the middle of the bo would damage both weapons to no good end and likely not cut the bo in 1/2. However, the tips of the bo could be whittled down I think.

But, if the opponent has a wooden weapon, we can deflect and block fully with the edge, which not only damages their weapon, but also allows us the best leverage with the sword with respects to our grip. It is easier to move with speed and confidence when your not concerned with cracking your sword edge and the grip is aligned with teki's attack (Sorry, a little hard to explain).
I follow your logic and explanation.

As an afterthought, I'd mention that I wouldn't be opposed to trying to fake the Bo-opponent into a block so that I could seize the bo with my left hand and quickly pull myself in to injure the opponent with the sword in my right. A six foot bo is not as efficient with one hand, whereas a katana can be used fairly effectively still!
Agreed.

[Edited by Doug Daulton on 10-30-2000 at 01:31 PM]

[Nathan Scott]

Hello,

Actually - for the record, I have in fact cut a six foot Japanese white oak bo in half with a katana. But this was when the bo was not moving, secured fairly tight and I was able to lay into it at a good cutting angle. However, that was for the purpose of "testing" as opposed to combat (and even then it wasn't easy!)

Tactically, I wouldn't presume that the skilled/seasoned bo person would sit still long enough to let me set up for that kind of a cut, which is why I didn't think it would be a possibility in a real conflict.

If I did manage to set up the Bo person in such a way that they were forced to use a two handed overhead block to defend against an incoming finnishing cut - especially from a kneeling/one knee down position, then it is quite possible that the bo could be severed.

But the odds of that are probably not very high!

PS. don't feel bad about the shinai thing. I was told when I was younger that the string was chalked-up so that in competition you could see if there was a hit or not, and that it represented the edge as well! It seems to be a common assumption. The string is in fact simply there to keep the leather tip and leather hilt together, since the shinai are loose staves of bamboo. The string would break if held downwards in shiai over time. BTW, also the two or three red retaining strings that are found wrapped around shinai when new are supposed to be cut off too! Another common oversight! :D

Regards,


[Edited by Nathan Scott on 10-30-2000 at 01:27 PM]

[Mario]

Very interesting thread gentlemen. I have thoroughly enjoyed reading everyone's opinion, but would just like to add one thing. As Doug has already mentioned, it is generally assumed that Ryukyu Kobudo is meant to counter other Kobudo weapons. However, it should be noted that this does not exclude these techniques from being used against the sword. A very good example of this is Taira Shinken's explanation of "kongo no kon" (aka shushi no kon) in Karate-do Taikan pg. 275-298.

Take a look at the following.

Figure 17 - Movement seventeen
Keep both legs in the same position. Repeat movement number nine. Movements seven to nine are a continuous set of techniques as are movements fourteen to sixteen. In other words, executing gedan barai and simultaneously countering with kesa kake The meaning of this technique is that your opponents shifts away from your attack and counters with a thrust to your face and you knock his bo to the side and thrust at his face in return.

Jodan tsuki (upward thrust) is not simply used to attack an opponent's face. If the attacker is wielding a sword and raises it above his head, you can also attack his wrist and arms with a thrusting attack.

It would seem that even RKHSK founder Taira Shinken believed that Ryukyu Bo-jutsu could be used against a swordsman.


Cheers,

Mario
Nagasaki, Japan

[Doug Daulton]

Originally posted by Mario
It would seem that even RKHSK founder Taira Shinken believed that Ryukyu Bo-jutsu could be used against a swordsman.

Mario -

As always ... excellent information. Thanks for sharing.

[AST]

Firstly thank you all for all the wonderful replies. This thread is giving me exactly the kind of feedback I was hoping for. The internet overcoming geographical limitations.

Ted

Don't you think that the swords emminence was more to cultural aspects than actual physical aspects. Didn't the samurai of old start with a bow, drop to a spear as the enemy closed and then resort to a sword if the ranges became too tight or the spear was lost. I may be wrong but wasn't yarijutsu and kyujutsu emphasised over kenjutsu. Obviously after the Sengoku period as more time was spent as a civilian and less on the battlefield than the sword became more important. I myself must admit that while the bow or spear on a battlefield was perhaps superior, there is something about a sword, that is just.... One can see how warriors gravitated towards it.

Nathan and Doug

I fully agree with you about the razor sharp blade vs the mind. I've tried SLOW motion counters vs a live blade, emphasis slow, and the blade was a cheap and nasty Marto 440. Even that was a lesson in concentration focus. Hate to have to face the real deal. Nathan, strangely I tend to use Obata sensei when visualising an opponent. He just looks so damn nasty. With him it would be bo vs ken only if I was trapped in a corner with nowhere to run.

All jokes aside I think the point about hacking into the bo is a good point. Bo vs kama techniques use the same idea to trap the bo and disrupt the opponents techniques.

It would seem to me that the same ma-ai of sword vs bo would probably need to be the same as bo vs bo. The quick back hand jab is probably one of the bo's best weapons as it is quick and has a very long reach.

Lets take my earlier example and expand on it:

You face the swordsman with your bo. Lets say chudan kamae vs chudan kamae. Bo moves in with forward thrusts to the feet of the swordsman, this exposes the head and invites a jodan uchi.

When the swordsman strikes the bo exponent leans back to the left and applies a skuri uke. This is a diagonal block very similiar to the Filipino wing blocks.The idea is to strike the hands or the forearms of the swordsman. Worst case to deflect the strike. The skuri uke continues up twirls and comes down as a diagonal strike for the front knee. The bo exponent now leans back into his attack. Right arm is crossed over left arm. The strike begins at the bo persons left shoulder and ends at his right knee.

The moment the bo connects defending sword or the knee, the left hand strikes to the head with the other end of the bo. My take is that the swordsman without two ends to the weapon and having just blocked the gedan strike is now at a disadvantage to counter the yoko uchi directed to the head.

How would a kenjutsu person counter these series of moves?
Probably by a thrust to the throat in the beginning, but hey humour me.

Thanks

[Nathan Scott]

Nathan, strangely I tend to use Obata sensei when visualising an opponent.

That's funny - so do I!! :D

Except that my visualization is chasing me around the dojo and cutting really hard.

I've never met anyone as formidable Obata Sensei. He's imposing in his stature, but smooth and fast. His kiai is massive, and goes through you like you weren't there. It's no picnic, but very good training!


I think the point about hacking into the bo is a good point. Bo vs kama techniques use the same idea to trap the bo and disrupt the opponents techniques.

Yeah, kama is a really strong weapon. My understanding of what you describe is that the kama is used to dig into a wooden weapon to secure it's position or pull themselves into the opponent, around their weapon.

While this would dig up the wood, what I'm talking about with a sword would splinter it up a bit more, I think. In fact, there's ways of cutting at it so that it pulls the wood up more, as opposed to penetrating as much. The bo person would likely not risk sliding at all, so they could not take advantage of sliding thrusts or blocks, and many bojutsu-ka might even opt to not perform hand changes at all, for fear of faultering over splintered areas. That brings his maai at least equal if not shorter than mine. Then I've got his front hand, which means that the bo is mostly not usable, and if retained by the one handed user, possibly just in the way. This is the tactic that comes to mind for me.

Why risk trading blows back and forth sparring against a weapon that has two equal ends? Chop it up, then chop... well, you get the idea.


It would seem to me that the same ma-ai of sword vs bo would probably need to be the same as bo vs bo. The quick back hand jab is probably one of the bo's best weapons as it is quick and has a very long reach.

Actually, I would guess that the bo's maai is slightly shorter than a sword, which would make it that much more dangerous. This is based off my limited experience with bo, and some experience with Naginata. Naginata is generally held around the middle (except for certain notable styles such as Jikishinkage ryu) because of the weight and balance of the weapon. As a result, the distance from front hand to kissaki is roughly the same as that of a sword when standing in chudan kamae (Ichimonji no Kamae)! The naginata has several strong advantages, including the ishizuki (metal end cap on the opposite end), but the basic maai is the same as the swordsman, and that distance feels longer than when I hold the bo in chudan kamae, FWIW.


You face the swordsman with your bo. Lets say chudan kamae vs chudan kamae. Bo moves in with forward thrusts to the feet of the swordsman, this exposes the head and invites a jodan uchi.

When the swordsman strikes the bo exponent leans back to the left and applies a skuri [sukui] uke. This is a diagonal block very similiar to the Filipino wing blocks.The idea is to strike the hands or the forearms of the swordsman. Worst case to deflect the strike. The skuri uke continues up twirls and comes down as a diagonal strike for the front knee. The bo exponent now leans back into his attack. Right arm is crossed over left arm. The strike begins at the bo persons left shoulder and ends at his right knee...

Sorry, but my eyes went out of focus right about here and I started to day dream that I was actually working at my terminal (scary, but I'm o.k. now. Ocha break)

Anyway to be honest it's a little hard for me to follow your scenario, but I would like to comment on part of it:

First, it's been my understanding that sukui uke is a deep deflection movement, as opposed to a striking block to the forearms etc. I don't specialize in bo, so I could be way off on the application of this block. But we've always practiced it in the leaning form with a deep deflection. Very effective, but no power to speak of in the blocking area to impact the opponent with.

Additionally, if you were to use this kind of deflection against a sword cut, you would actually be providing us with a very nice cutting angle on your bo. If we didn't make it through, the cut into the bo would either pull you dangerously off balance of cause the bo to yank out of at least one of your grips. You'd have to deflect almost parallel to the edge (shinogi would be best, or mune if possible) to avoid being cut into.

From a bo standpoint, which I'm not very qualified to speak from, when facing a swordmamn I would recommend tactics such as:

1) excellent timing, rhythm and distance to perform avoidance and counterstrikes. Attempt to strike the swordsman's grip if possible, but in any event avoid prolonged exchanges.

2) a well thought out, well set up fake and strike (kyo-jitsu) taking advantage of the duel striking ends of the bo. For instance, number 6 of Ippon kumite where you perform jodan uchi to open the opponent, then immediately follow with furiage uchi.

3) A sword is strong from edge to back, and in a straight line thrust only. Aggresive strikes to the side or back of the blade might go a long ways towards bending or breaking the weapon, if not possible breaking the swordsman's grip (*maybe*) or balance (SMR).


Probably by a thrust to the throat in the beginning, but hey humour me.

Funny enough, I do alot of thrusting personally, though it is not all that popular.

Regards,



[Edited by Nathan Scott on 10-31-2000 at 12:40 PM]

[AST]

Nathan

Thanks for your replies. I seem to be on the inverse side of yourself. Know something about bo work but next to nothing about sworsmanship.

The sukui / skuri uke I was trying to describe probably also exists in kenjutsu. Lets say you were facin an opponent in gedan kamae. If the opponent attacked with a jodan strike, you would bring the weapon up into a jodan position to defend the head but at the same time trying to strike the opponents hands. The bo usually ends off pointing about 45 degrees to the defenders right hand side.

If you were using a sword you would simply turn the blade edge up, and try and slice the opponents forearms. Advanced apologies if its difficult to decipher.

Your comment about a better slicing position does however reveal to me the penalties for failing to execute the technique properly.

Apart from missing body parts of course! :D

[Nathan Scott]

Hi,

Yes, we have a position almost identical to sukui-uke in sword, that we use quite a bit. In Shinkendo we call it (Jodan) "Kasumi", but the names change from tradition to tradition.

The Kasumi-uke is used to deflect the attack outside the user's body, and redirect their own sword around for a counterstrike. The same idea as number 3 of Ippon Kumite.

However, we do not use this deflection to cut the arms from underneath. It *can* be done from Kasumi-gamae, but you would probably want to change the angles a bit to provide you with a little better leverage for the "pushing cut".

We have a technique that is similar to a rising diagonal cut, but instead of generating tip velocity like you would in a normal cut, you push more (pushing cut) and control/cut the opponent from several different points under the arms (as they are cutting down).

Another option is to support the blade while in kasumi with the left hand from behind (Torii-uke - the one you see everyone who owns a stainless steel sword use to pose for pictures), and use the left hand in this forward position for leverage to perform a pushing cut/control. (similar in concept to number 8 and 9 of Ippon kumite). Number 10, by the way, would be an excellent example of a well timed avoidance technique that might work against sword. I've always thought that the shite side was supposed to be a sword attack. Give it a try.

Interestingly, these two above variations are how I would modify sukui uke with a bo to strike a sword opponent's kote as well.

FWIW, if I had a bokken and my opponent had a shinken, I would not use kasumi in hopes of deflecting the block. It would set me up in the exact same way it would set you up if you used sukui uke! Steel against steel is a different application of tactics than steel vs. wood/ wood vs. wood.

Regards,



[Edited by Nathan Scott on 11-01-2000 at 12:05 PM]

[AST]

Nathan

Your reply has confirmed what I suspected. There are too many nuances to sword combat that I just do not understand.

Guess I'll just have to study some kenjutsu.
Easy huh! :D

No 10 Ippon kumite you say. Geez I've almost been beaned with a bo doing no 10. Hate to thik of the wet puddle that 3 foot of razor sharp steel would create.


Thanks for your input, I will give it much thought.

[Hank Irwin]

Originally posted by Sochin
Can we assume that if the bo could easily defeat a sword that it would have become the weapon of choice ???
I believe the Bo to be probably the most effective weapon against all weapons, then Katana, then Jo.

Sensei Irwin

[kusanku]

I would think the sai to be the most effective counter weapon.

See the article Joe Swift translated on saijutsu on another thread in this forum.

Thanks, Joe, as always!

Kusanku

[Enfield]

Originally posted by AST
It brought me to ponder on a time when a friend and myself did some light sparring in the garden, shinai vs bo. he does kendo so I don't know if it was really appropriate.I found that the move from Soeshi no kon, where you perform an downward strike to the opponents knee with the right, then immeadiately follow it up with a backhand with the lefy worked really well. The shinai would block the downward strike but be unable to respond to the backhand.

Now it worked wonderfully then, but I was thinking, against an experienced swordsman?, against a combat orientated ryu?
What nunances am I not seeing that could be used against me?


First off, I don't study kobudo or any related arts, but do practice kendo. You are aware that the lowest targets in kendo are the love-handles, so a strike below the waist, let alone down at the knee, is something that the kendoka has never practiced in regular keiko, and as such is not going to have any "official" waza with which to counter.

May I ask *how* your friend blocked the strike to the knee? I'm guessing it was by standind and lowering the tip to protect the leg, which will strongly hinder the swordsman when he tries to counter attack. Having played a similar game with a naginataka, I found that a much more effective, but initially much more difficult, counter is to squat down and use a sort of uchiotoshi, keeping the shinai at least flat, if not pointing a little bit up. This position allows a much faster followup technique, whether that be a counter-attack or another defensive maneuver.

[AST]

Kent

You are correct in the assumption that he lowered his sword to defend the leg. Although the rules in kendo forbid this, when we play around with slow randori there are no rules. We both dislike restrictions in what should be a free for all. Besides no rules produces innovation, and I'm representing an uncultured peasant/farmer/kobujutsu exponent? :D

Your defence however does sound to be a more plausable one. At the very least keeping the sword in the upright position would afford you the opportunity to defend against the second attack.

The resemblance to any bujutsu expert living or dead, was extremely coincidental and entirely unintended.:D

[Enfield]

Originally posted by AST
You are correct in the assumption that he lowered his sword to defend the leg. Although the rules in kendo forbid this, when we play around with slow randori there are no rules. We both dislike restrictions in what should be a free for all. Besides no rules produces innovation, and I'm representing an uncultured peasant/farmer/kobujutsu exponent?

Oh, I was in no way trying to cry, "Foul!" Rather, I was just trying to point out that the kendoka has in all likelyhood never received any instruction on dealing with attacks below the waist, and so you would most likely get the first response that pops into his mind, rather than something better thought out. I suspect that if you kept working on this one scenario, he'd eventually try the squatting uchiotoshi.

Also, can I ask why he used a shinai rather than a bokuto? If nothing else, using a shinai against a wooden weapon will drastically reduce its lifetime.

[AST]

The truth is that was all that we had at that particular place and time.

Also what is a bukuto, I must confess my ignorance. I have a bokken have seen shinai, but am not familiar with a bukuto.

[Ruediger]

Bokuto, Bokken...different names, same thing

[AST]

Thanks for clearing that up for me. Wish I had spelt it correctly though.

[FastEd]

Although truthfully I can't quite visualize the stiking movements of the bo, I'll give this thing a shot.

As a swordsman, I would react to a low strike to the knee by trying to close in and stiking to "men" as bo hits. I'd gladly take a damaged knee in order to split a head. If the bo is held in the middle (kobudo style?) and horizontal accross the body (this is the picture i have in my head) then the striking distance for both sword and bo is about the same, from the sword side you have lots of effective targets, the hands are un-protected the the head and neck are open. In "chudan" or "jodan" kami you could take the initative and strike first quite strongly.
To gain an advantage on the sword, you need distance, the further out of range you are the better (as with any weapon) if the bo is wielded at the ends instead of the middle you have it.

[Edited by FastEd on 11-21-2000 at 04:07 PM]

[Rob]

Fast Ed,

I hope you really are fast !! Basically the way I visualise this there's a real chance that that Bo is going to hit your knee on the side of the joint before your strike cuts.

If that happens you're gonna go down hard and probably not walk again as the ligaments tear.

Also in my limited experience of Japanese Bo techniqes although held in the centre, when striking the bo slides thorough the hands so the effective distance is further than it appears. Which makes it very hard to get inside.

However my experience with sword and Bo are limited and there are many on this forum with more experience who will be able to correct me.

[FastEd]

Originally posted by Rob
Fast Ed,

I hope you really are fast !! Basically the way I visualise this there's a real chance that that Bo is going to hit your knee on the side of the joint before your strike cuts.


Well that is it, is it not...who takes the initative, who hits first effectivily.
However I still don't see how my strike is going stop moving down toward your head even if you strike the knee. Unless you fake me out first, I don't think your going to be able to disable the knee before I can initiate a strike, and once initiated there's no stopping it.
However as you say, if you can strike out beyond the swords reach from that stance, then its a different story.

[Sochin]

I agree with Rob,

"Also in my limited experience of Japanese Bo techniqes although held in the centre, when striking the bo
slides thorough the hands so the effective distance is further than it appears."

I have no experience with swords and have only faced wodden replicas at less than killing speed but I could time my strike to the hands as they were still quite high above the forehead because of sliding the bo through my hands to get more length. I'd have to say that tho I wouldn't trust my own reflexes for this job, the bo does seem to be made for it, especially when combined with some FMA triangular footwork.

[Hank Irwin]

The opening "salutation" of Sakugawa No Kun taps the katana,Jo as you saibaki to left(Bo to side, right hand down, reach under with left, circle up, tap/glance with bottom side of Bo) the following end winds up in the opponents groin or face of kneecap(which will have some effect) then step out and in with return follow-up downward smash to top of head. This is good example of not having the Bo horizontally held at waist for defense and is also good example of Bo vs. Katana or Jo.

Sensei Hank Irwin

[Corey Reid]

I'm finding this a very interesting discussion and I'd like to throw in a different perspective -- Katori Shinto Ryu.

I'm not an expert of any sort, but I have studied KSR, including the bo kata -- which start with bo vs. sword. Some observations:

The KSR style almost never holds the bo at the middle of the weapon. It's based on slipping from one end to the other in order to maximize the power of strikes. It does seem to somewhat negate the "double-ended" advantage of the bo. On the other hand, you get really good at yanking your bo out of harm's way!

There are no direct, strength blocks in KSR bo. You never bring your bo directly against an incoming blade. Usually you use your much longer ma-ai (longer because of the end-to-end use of the bo I mentioned above) to knock sideways at incoming attacks.

An example: bo in hidari gedan as the swordsman steps in and delivers a maku-uchi men. The bo user snaps the tip of the bo up in a half circle clockwise while twisting the hips to the right. The result is that the bo strikes the side of the blade while the bo user's body turns out of the line of the strike. This would be followed up with either an overhead strike to the head or quick blow to the swordsman's right knee.

One of the keys to KSR bo is keeping that longer ma-ai through thrusts and strikes that involve levering the body away from the swordsman.

I'd still rather have a really sharp sword, I guess.

[Hank Irwin]

The wooden stick,(TanBo,Jo, and Bo)probably the oldest weapon to be created. If you look at ANCIENT(prehistoric) times you see the development of wooden implements and weapons as a means of "self-preservation", weapons AND methods for capturing food, tools used for everyday, ("Caveman KungFu"ha!ha!) that in our thinking could be used as weapons; hmmm...what if you were a caveman and a local "warring" tribe jumped your camp and you were in the middle of chopping wood with a prehistoric axe? Would you drop it and run get 'da club? I do not think so. I do not think we can credit the Chinese, Okinawan, Korean, or Japanese for developing "some" weaponry, they have already been around too long, coming from places like Roma, Sparta, even ancient Cimmeria.The Chinese developed "fine" swordmaking, the Japanese epitomized it. China refined silk making, but some of the most beautiful examples of Silk apparel come from Korea. Okinawa took Southern Shaolin TsuruKen and transformed it into one of the world's most deadiest unarmed fighting systems, Tuide Jutsu. Heck, Henry Ford introduced the "assembly line" to the Japanese in the early 1900's, ten years later they came to the US and showed him how to do it better!
Hope I am not boring you guys, feel like I am writing a article. The Chinese influenced Kobudo and "Village Kobudo" that originated IN Okinawa is extremely formidable. Kyoshi James Coffman of Machimura Seito is an excellant authority on Uchina Kobudo.( being one of O'Sensei Machimura Hohan's first American students, he also was a Shorinji-ryu deshi under Kise Fuse Sama for quite a few years) Would love to hear his thoughts on Ryukyu Kobudo. Hope you guy's don't mind me ramblin' like this.

Sensei Hank Irwin

need some sleep*

[FastEd]

[/QUOTE]
Oh, I was in no way trying to cry, "Foul!" Rather, I was just trying to point out that the kendoka has in all likelyhood never received any instruction on dealing with attacks below the waist, and so you would most likely get the first response that pops into his mind, rather than something better thought out.[/B][/QUOTE]

I've been thinking over this comment, and I'd like to point out something, it is of course based on my understanding of the sword, not having worked with a bo before, and I don't profess to be an expert.

With that said, I don't think there is any better response to a bo attack below the waist, then to go to the head. The logic behind this, for me, is that the sword is at a disadvantage in reach. The bo has the initiative because of its reach, so the answer is to move inside this attack range, and end the fight ASAP. If the bo goes low the sword risks a broken leg or damaged knee, but the bo risks death as the sword is responding with a cut to the head.

However it may end, the engagement is over after the first or second strike.