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Massimiliano
5th July 2004, 14:07
Greetings

I’d like to put a question to the E-Budo forum. One year and a half ago, I started to practice shito-ryu karate. After a few months of practice, I had to stop because my left knee was terribly aching. I consulted a physician and I found that the tendon behind my kneecap was inflamed (I apologize about this but I don’t know the correct name of that tendon; it’s the sartorius’s one). I had to undergo laser-therapy and, in a couple of months, the problem was over. Now, I’d like to go back to train, but I’m afraid of tendonitis
Twenty (20) years ago I damaged my left meniscus playing volley-ball. I thought I had solved my problems.(I was not operated, BTW) . Up until now, the only consequence of that accident is that my left quadriceps is not very strong and I have to train constantly not to loose my muscle tone.

In your opinion:

Can that accident have a relation with my recent tendonitis ? Can I go back to karate safely ? Or what should I do to avoid this problem in the future ? I’m practicing shito-ryu Karate. Is this style OK for me ?
I’d much appreciate any answer or advice. I apologize about my mistakes in English.

Thank you all very much for your help

Jock Armstrong
5th July 2004, 14:56
You might have to change the way you do certain things [to put less stress on the problem area]. Maybe you can get together with your instructor and work around it.?

n2shotokai
5th July 2004, 15:06
While you should definitely discuss the situation with your instructor, you should also see a doctor. Too many people give out medical advice without the knowledge to do so, like the following.

I took a break from training for several years. When I returned I found in a few weeks my knees were just killing me. I slowly worked on building the muscles up around my knees and the pain went away. While that worked for my situation it could very well ruin someone elses knees. See a doctor.

gmanry
6th July 2004, 07:29
Yep, some karate can definitely cause knee problems. Mostly this has to do with poorly taught basics that are based on a very misunderstood sense of tradition vs. a good understanding of human anatomy.

Before I elaborate, Mr. Beale is absolutely correct, consult a doctor.

Ok, first, if you are being told to turn your toes and knees inward in sanchin dachi, stop attending that dojo immediately!

If you are being told to turn your front foot inward on zenkutsu dachi, stop attending that dojo immediately!

If your kiba dachi is over 1.5 shoulder widths in size because that is what your instructor does, stop attending that dojo immediately!

All of these things will damage your knees over time, particularly if done with any type of tension (as in sanchin). They represent a poor understanding of how the body positioning in karate works, and it is just plain, bad technique, period. It can permanently damage the ligaments in your joints, which heal even less readily than tendons!

The knee, hip, and ankle are designed to work in conjunction with each other, not against one another. Each of these examples puts them at odds with one another. Like having bulges in a tire, the pressure exerted on the joints is directed in the wrong way, and BAM you get a blow out or as is probably your case, uneven wear. Or it is like the collapsing Coke can trick, where you stand on the can and just tap the sides, it flattens like a pancake in an instant. Your knee is the Coke can.

What is often misunderstood as twisting is really just obtaining good contact with the ground through the feet. It doesn't require any rotational stress on the knees or ankle. Kiba dachi should keep the toes and knees perfectly aligned, which means a more narrow stance. If you go wider, shiko dachi is the appropriate position so that toes and knees can stay aligned. Many people I have known, including myself, have had problems with tendonitis in the knee due to these issues. Once we moved on to the correct positions, walla, the pain went away.

Also, don't straighten your back knee in zenkutsu dachi, ever. In kicking use your body weight shift to deliver the kick, not your knee extension. Never "lift" your knee, instead rotate the hip forward, which swings the knee up (this involves the use of the spine). Do not lock your stances up through your ankles and knees, allow them to remain pliable and springy for better mobility and joint health, let your skeleton hang in the position rather than propping yourself up with fatigued muscles. All of these bad things are found in most karate dojo, unfortunately. They represent poor mechanics and lead to a lot of repetitive injury. The skeletal-muscular system is a pretty straight forward machine to understand in terms of gross motor movements. It is a shame that most people in the martial arts ignore it to the extent that they do. There are many fine movements too, but they are a waste without the proper gross movements, which includes understanding proper alignment.

Lastly, do supplementary exercises. Once you develop smooth technique, doing the technique more will not appreciably give you greater strength in that range. You have to do antagonistic exercises in a less familiar motion with increasing resistance to build up and maintain those same muscles. The technique is relying on muscle memory or neural association, and is moving efficiently, meaning that antagonistic tension (needed for muscle development) is not present. (This is the purpose of training, to be efficient and smooth.) Squats, dead lifts, lunges, and calf raises are the basic four exercises for strengthening your legs. For knee problems, using a leg extension machine is also a good thing, particularly in recovering from many patella problems (consult a physical therapist, though, please).

PS
Yep, this is going to upset some people...I am sorry if it does. It is the factual truth and it is being taught way too often as proper position and movement.

Massimiliano
6th July 2004, 07:59
Thank you all for your help and your advices.

I’m seeing a doctor about this problems of course. He told me I can go back to train as soon I develop a stronger quadriceps. Actually I’m talking with him about a series of exercises to obtain this result. Unfortunately, my doctor is not a martial arts experts, so I thought about asking here.

I read very carefully gmanry’s post and I must say I’ve been making at least one of the described mistakes. When standing in zenkutsu dachi I turned my front foot inward. My instructor didn’t tell me I was making a mistake until I asked him. My favourite position was “left zenkutsu dachi” and I developed tendonitis in my left knee. This could be not a coincidence. I already had some doubts about the lineage of the style I’m being taught. I’m definitely thinking to change dojo.

I found, on the Internet, some pictures:

Shiko dachi: http://www.karate-shotokan.it/glossario/foto/shiko.html

Kiba dachi: http://www.karate-shotokan.it/tecniche/posizioni/kiba.html

Sanchin dachi: http://www.karate-shotokan.it/glossario/foto/sanchin.html

Are these positions correct ? When I’m taught a new position, how can I be sure that I’m being taught in the proper way ?

Thank you again

Casper Baar
6th July 2004, 11:46
Listen to your body. Glenn Manry's post was good (IMO). The pictures are Shotokan and you wrote you practice shito-ryu. Stances differ from each other depending on style. So the pictures might not be any good for you.

Kiba/ Shiko
Jump up and observe how you land, what is the angle between your feet.
Now jump and land in a wider stance, what happens to this angle?

Zenkutsu
Forward leaning stance. When you start moving forward what is the first thing you do when taking a step? Espacially when moving slowly you need to make space somewhere to move comfortably. You probably turn your frontfoot outward or stretch your frontknee.

Taking it apart and putting it back together is one of the things I like about karate.
Your talking about an old injury, you may move differently because of this injury. Sometimes this can be seen in the way your shoes wear out on the bottom.
When walking normally (down the sreet) what is the angle between your feet? This angle is normal for you. The feet are probably not pointing straight forward. Should they point straight forward in zenkutsudachi?

good luck,

n2shotokai
6th July 2004, 14:43
Yes, I would like to point out to those who are new to karate that not only do stances vary by style they also vary by school. Shiko dachi does not exist in shotokan and the same can be said for kiba dachi and some Okinawan styles. Kiba dachi stances vary from 1.5 to 3 times your shoulder width. Each school / style has a reasoning for the differences. Some we may agree with and some we may not.

IMO it is important to listen to your body. If you are experiencing pain with a specific stance, kihon, technique etc. (especially if you have an old injury) you should discuss this with your instructor. Your instructor armed with this info may want to make some modifications to keep you on the dojo floor and out of the doctor's office.

gmanry
6th July 2004, 19:34
Mr. Baar and Mr. Beale are correct in that stances do differ from style to style. However, much of what is taught today has been driven by good intentions (most of the time) but not by much knowledge about fighting or how the human body works.

The pictures shown depict a good shiko dachi, a problematic kiba dachi, and a bad sanchin dachi.

The shiko dachi quite naturally demonstrates how the knee and ankles and hips work, that is why it was adopted in goju and some other schools. The kiba dachi has been, imo, the most misunderstood stance because it is so common and usually so poorly taught. If you flex your knees deeply at more than 1.5 (2 for the exceptionally gangly) shoulder widths with your feet straight, you are putting very bad strain on the ligaments of the knee and the patella. This is simply a fact. Deep kiba dachi is done to strengthen the quads and the calves, but it is a mistake, there are better ways that are safer for the joints. I personally do not like kiba dachi at all, even when done in a safe manner. I believe that its modern form was invented to help teach unaware people where their toes are and strenghten the legs, good intentions, bad result.

If you do it relaxed, you will notice that your toes want to track with the knee, even at 1.5 or 2 shoulder widths. This is natural, and why would you want to keep your joint from doing what they do naturally?

When I teach kiba dachi, I don't require toes to be perfectly straight, I let the person adjust accordingly. Also no more than 2 shoulder widths depending on the person (I prefer 1.5) your weight is NOT on your heels, but on the first third of the instep and your shins are NOT vertical. This will keep the pressure off the sides of the knees and help strengthen the pattellar ligament. Karate-do Kyohan by Gichin Funakoshi shows some decent kiba dachi in the kata section. Also, Uechi Ryu (classical) and Isshin Ryu (classical) do nice kiba dachi.

For a good example of sanchin dachi, find a good classical goju person, or see Morio Higaonna's Goju series of books. They show a straight footed sanchin and explain the foot "gripping" (not really gripping with the feet though).

Finding a good martial arts teacher is very, very difficult. Don't always worry about lineage. I have seen people who have excellent lineage and I would not do the things I see them doing. If you look in the phone book, how many of those people do you think are REALLY experts at something as complex as the martial arts? How many of your high school teachers were really good teachers, coaches winning coaches, etc?

I don't come from a classical lineage, and there are many things I don't know about karate, but I do know BS kinesthetics when I see it, and I have noticed the classical schools adhere to better kinesthetics most of the time. It is when it gets passed around a little and you get the cookie cutter wonder sensei that things start to get screwy.

Also, don't necessarily go running into the night from your school, despite what I said, ask questions first, evaluate the answers and then make a decision. It may be that you were shown basics by a senior student who does not fully grasp the material.

The last thing to remember is that in most dojo, stances are evaluated on aesthetics and not on the function of the body. A simple rule is that there are no straight lines in the body or any natural 90 degree angles. We can only approximate these things. So, if you have a school requiring lots of rigid shapes, this may be a clue that there is a problem, but ask first and experiment a little. When you hit a correct stance, your skeleton should, with practice, just support you effortlessly with little excess tension. Fatigue will always set in given enough time. This relaxed state of support does not get discussed much in karate, but the Chinese call it sung. It is very important.

Do you mind if I ask what style you study?

gmanry
6th July 2004, 20:01
Here is a reasonable discussion of kiba dachi, imo:

http://www.jkasv.com/article0012.html

Pay attention to his summary section also.

Sanchin dachi:

Bad sanchin advice:
http://www.shotokankarate.dabsol.co.uk/shotokan/stances/sanchin.htm

I found so many calling this pigeon toed stance, self-fulfilling prophecy of mistakes. The toe inward stance is really hangetsu dachi:

http://www3.baylor.edu/BUKarate/articles/HangetsuDachi.html

The above link is a great article discussing the problem with inward pressure stances like bad sanchin and bad hangetsu dachi.

I can't find any good pictures of sanchin, see Higaonna Sensei's book.

Jock Armstrong
7th July 2004, 01:12
One of the big problems with foot angles in stances is that a lot of old Japanese and Okinawan people were what we [and modern Japanese and Okinawans] would call "bowlegged" and "pigeon toed". Their legs were formed that way because of [theory only but one I think is on the ball] the custom of sitting in seiza. turning the feet in at the ankles and the lack of calcium [dairy] in the old diet. The whole dynamic of balance and foot position changes. I've seen the same with people who are cowboys and have been all their lives- they are bowlegged. When I say shiko dachi, feet at the natural angle, they are nearly in kiba! Foot angle is all relative. Rigid and unthinking adherence to "thats how my instructor done it" rather than careful observation and listening to the concepts involved has resulted in generations of karateka contorting themselves into positions that were never intended. Reminds me of the story of a bunch early shotokan fellas who kept injuring their hands punching. They didn't make a proper fist, they had one finger straight, causing a weak fist formation. "thats how sensei did it" was the chorus- except that Funakoshi never taught them that, he made a fist like that because years before he had broken his index finger and couldn't curl it fully.

Morio da man!!

gmanry
7th July 2004, 03:34
Jock,

I think you are probably right about some of those issues. At the heart of karate training should be in-depth guidance from a teacher to a student concerning how their own body works with the principles of karate.

Also, a student has to spent a lot of time playing with the movements and trying and re-trying things to see how they can best do it.

Karate in a box has been too long the rule, in the US at least. Some of it is mostly good stuff, but most if it is just utter crap from a technique standpoint. I realize many people derive satisfaction from such practice, and that is fine AS LONG AS the practice is not causing physical harm and as long as people are not being deluded into thinking they are learning classical or functional karate (of course many of them are being told such things).

I think that if we could x-ray the skeletons of the old shcoolers we would find much of what you say is true, their foot angle is based on their particular culturally developed bone structure. This is the problem when you set down static rules based on outside appearances and not based on the priniciples of anatomical knowledge. Part of this has to due with the limitations of medical knowledge of the time, and part of it also has to do with language barriers between Okinawan and Japanese teachers and their foreign students.

Interesting issue about that index finger thing, I never new why that was the case. Of course, I have had people try to tell me that was the secret method. I even tried it once, and it made no difference one way or the other, because my alignment to my foreknuckles was proper.

Funakoshi is definitely bowlegged in those pictures! Interestingly, I had a friend who was of Japanese decent and quite squat in stature. I used to watch how he moved versus the rest of us long leggers. I learned a lot from watching him, because he was forced to move like many of the old schoolers and founders due to his body structure. His front kick was totally different from the text book, and I took a lot of mental notes about that. His stances were more compact, and they took on a more natural quality too.

Massimiliano
7th July 2004, 14:23
Do you mind if I ask what style you study?

Of course not :-)

Our teacher told us we are studying a style of the shyto ryu family, organized by sensei Ibo Muneaki who lived in Akashi (Japan). I extensively googled the web looking for infos about this style or the sensei, but withouth results.

I asked to the Olimpic Italian Karate federation but they told me this school was non inscribed into their lists.

As a matter of fact, I don't have many infos. In this school, up to 3rd dan, we study 30 kata. This is strange, 'cause I knew shito ryu included more than 50 kata. As I told you, at the moment I had to stop to cure my knee. When this problem is over, I think I'll change dojo.

Mass

gmanry
7th July 2004, 19:01
Well, I hope you find a good instructor. It is very difficult to find a good instructor in any martial art. As I said, the phonebook would tell you there are plenty, but the truth is that there are a mere handful to be found.

Rome is of course a metropolis, so your chances are increased, but so are your chances of finding mediocrity. Even if you find a good instructor, you have to resist the temptation of expecting them to show you everything. You have to spend a lot of time experimenting with your own body and mind, you have to take the knowledge and make it your own. A good instructor will encourage this. Even a superb martial artists may not be the best instructor.

I have seen quite a few lesser skilled teachers produce much better students than a spuperbly skilled teacher.

It is a difficult thing. Good luck to you.

Kawakami Gensai
9th July 2004, 23:14
I've been studying Okinawan shorinryu for four years now, and am 14. If I have not had any problems deriving from karate should I be okay with the style?

Kawakami Gensai
10th July 2004, 17:03
:D you said spuperbly! :p

...I guess I just thought that was a funny typo...

:o ......................

well now I feel like an idiot

gmanry
10th July 2004, 22:06
Yep, not the best of words in retrospect, but the almight MS Word doesn't flag it. :p

Matt,

Given your age, your body will be very forgiving towards some of the things we have been discussing her, but that will change over time.

From what I have seem of most traditional Shorin Ryu, you shouldn't be running into these issues. These issues largely crop up in foreign derived schools based around shotokan. Even though every good shotokan text I read doesn't show such things. ;)

Your largest issue should be in watching your hips while kicking. I started TKD just around your age, when I was 13. I stretched a lot and did the kicks I was told the way I was told. I still have some minor hip clicking as a result when I rotate my knee to my chest (lift my knee ;) ).

The other thing involves the use of makiwara, you shouldn't be engaged in any strenuous hitting on a makiwara until you are at least 16 years of age or older, and then only on a proper (flexible) makiwara after proper instruction.

gmanry
10th July 2004, 22:19
Jack,

Most TKD and Korean kicking styles are taught incorrectly and are very dangerous to the practitioner's joints. I studied Olympic style TKD for 15 years and saw a lot of bad stuff, but some good stuff too.

You do not get range by extending your knee more. First, if you haven't hit the target yet, full knee extension means you touch the target, but you won't deliver any power. This in karate is proper distance or maai. You should be hitting your target at about 80 extension. This is only a guideline though and varies by the dimension of your skeleton, type of kick, etc.

Also, don't kick air at full power. Kicking in the air needs to be done about 60% of maximum or less. Pay more attention to your form in shifting weight and following through. DO NOT extend your knee fully on any kick when kicking air.

It is good you are asking these questions, because a lot of students are just told to go for broke, and they get it. ;)