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sepai 85
7th July 2004, 14:09
there is an on going interest in kyusho, to tell the truth Imho I dont see why. In a high stress situation your fine motor movements go out the window as you all know, so how can it be expected that you will rub or press an individual point an a opponent intent on kicking your teeth into the back of your throat, please dont get me wrong I believe in vital points that is throat knee's brackio plexus carotid arterie and the likes, but I dont know how individual points or the cycle of destruction could possibly work in a fight for your life. So the question I suppose narrows down to how activily do you study or teach your students kyusho ?

I did not mean to offend with this post , if that happened I offer my apologies

with respect and gratitude

Mitch Saret
7th July 2004, 19:26
I think the marketing is a big part of it. Some instructors bill it as the be all, quick fix to self protection. Just like diet pills. If you'll notice, all of those diets say you need to eat right and exercise...duh!!!

Pressure points are a fine adjunct to a martial art, but as you pointed out, in an altercation your fine motor skills go out the window. However, if your gross motor skills are trained to strike in certain areas, as pre-set "one-steps" or similar drills do, you already have the pressure points hard wired in your brain.

sepai 85
7th July 2004, 20:34
Mr Saret

thank you for taking the time out of your schedual to answer my question, let it be known that I apprecaite it.

yours with respect

Budoka 34
7th July 2004, 20:59
Mitch,

I have to admit I agree. Kyusho is being pushed as an end all be all for Karateka and the like.
I've been on the receiving end from several instructors and can tell you it works, but these guys also spend hours each week reviewing the meridain points, and corresponding elements.
They work drills for mulitiple striking like the rest of us work kihon.
It take years to understand where to hit,when, and in what order. It is not, like some well noted Kyusho instructors would have us believe, something you can learn in a seminar weekend or book. Sure you may learn a "point" attack, but like you both noted earlier, when under stress high motor function is the first thing to go.

Everyone I know that take Kyusho serious also studies TCM (Traditional Chinese Medicine) and has developed a better understanding of the long term effects and functions of these strikes.

:smilejapa

sepai 85
8th July 2004, 15:16
thank you budoka 34 :)

1. do you gentleman believe in the efficeancy of the pressure point control tactics used be most leo, I am at least partial to the system because it doesnt really on pin point precision strikes, for example a strike to the side of the neck a good portion of the time a knock out there is lung 16 and lung 17 on the neck or something like that , but that is just according to tcm there is lots of nerves clusters in that area. so my question goes down to what are your opinions on pressure point control tactics ?

2. do you actively teach your students, nerve attacks from kata or do you believe it to not be functional ?

I believe pressure points have been given a bad name , mostly because of the excess amount of parlour tricks out there , no touch knock outs ki projection etc :rolleyes:

thank you again gentlemen for your resonses
I look forward to farther discussion

Mitch Saret
8th July 2004, 21:06
Just from what I have seen with LEO's that were trained several years ago...

They have been taught to push in a place and that causes pain...that's it. And the person being pushed can essentially just back away and viola! no more pain. They are not taught the counter pressure.

For example, the point just under the nose that you push up and in. If all you do is that it's actually pretty easy, and reflexive to get away from that pressure. However, if the back of the head is held as the pressure to the point is applied...no escape.

If taught and used properly they can be excellent control tactics, otherwise, they just get you in more trouble.

Budoka 34
9th July 2004, 01:36
Ben,
Interesting question. Let me start by saying I don't teach kysho at all. I'm an Ichi Kyu and it is not a formal part of the style I study.
I can say that some of the kata (kyusho related) bunkai being taught works. I have been on the receiving end of Vince Morris's technique and found it to be very functional and effective!

I work closely with our LEO training classes (we have weekly classes just for LEO).
We work pain compliance points verses "true" kyusho. Yes we also work general area targets and controlled motor response.
How to make the bad guy do what you want, when you want, even when he doesn't want to. :)


:smilejapa

Jim Perkins
11th July 2004, 15:46
So the question I suppose narrows down to how activily do you study or teach your students kyusho ? Today there are too many who want to fast track the learning process and this has been popularized by quick learn videos and weekend master certificate seminars. The acupoints used for martial applications in ancient times was not taught till one achieved many years of study and practice, students needed to be proficient at the basic skills. Then taught and understand acupoints the effects and recovery process before using these as martial techniques.
1. do you gentleman believe in the efficeancy of the pressure point control tactics used be most leo, I am at least partial to the system because it doesnt really on pin point precision strikes, for example a strike to the side of the neck a good portion of the time a knock out there is lung 16 and lung 17 on the neck or something like that , but that is just according to tcm there is lots of nerves clusters in that area. so my question goes down to what are your opinions on pressure point control tactics ? PPCT can be very effective to control because most of the points are used in combination with joint immobilization and cause pain. But they do require some skill and precision to do correctly as for a strike to the neck that would be ST 9 & 10 and this is a VERY DANGEROUS strike more can happen than just a knock out.
2. do you actively teach your students, nerve attacks from kata or do you believe it to not be functional ? Students need to learn kata and the basic applications first and if wasn’t functional I would waste my time with it.

Respectfully

ppko
12th July 2004, 12:54
Learning the pressure points is not an end all to combat but just something else to add to your fighting skills. It does not take years to learn as some would say I could teach 4 to 5 knockouts in one class ( which I do not ). When you first start learning the pressure points you are taught to hit in a certain area rather than hit the face it may be hit St5 at an upward? are training yourself to hit in certain areas your chances of winning the fight go up. Yes we do look at the meridians, study the elements, but when you are in the heat of the battle you hit whatever sticks out (example armbar using TW11 you would probably see TW17 or TW 23 sticck out and then hit those areas.

bruceb
12th July 2004, 23:18
How many times do I have to say it before it finally catches on ...

NO ONE MARTIAL ART HAS EVERYTHING YOU NEED OR CAN PROTECT YOU.

bruceb
12th July 2004, 23:49
How many times do I have to say it before it finally catches on ...

NO ONE MARTIAL ART HAS EVERYTHING YOU NEED OR CAN PROTECT YOU.

However, it does help to put the pieces together so you can get a clearer picture of martial arts. If you want to go back to the beginning of Kyusho Jitsu, it is the martial art defined by Hohan Soken, which is in the eyes of most people, a variation of Okinawin Karate. This Karate is also a blend of previous styles and practices that are adapted and added as fighters defeat local fighters, then local fighters devise techniques or bring back techniques that defeat foreign fighters.

The evolution of martial arts is continueing today as new weapons are devised and new tactics are devised to defeat these new weapons and new techniques ... which if you look long and hard enough, are merely variations of old, or very very old fighting techniques.

So ... give it up.

Kyusho Jitsu has stolen pieces of it practice from other martial arts and its devised offenses / defenses are based upon the threats of those situations, and/or that particular period of time in human history.

We MUST continue to evolve and adapt martial arts to neutralize the forces that would harm us, or our loved ones. The most basic of measuring sticks is to neutralize persons who are a danger to themselves or others by the lowest use of force possible, but to have those means and ways available is the choice of the majority of society also. Make no mistake, the hidden practices are just as dangerous to the general public as the threat of terrorism, or crime, so in some ways, it is still good to keep some of the advanced practices hidden.

You wanna know what gets under my skin when I see the action news being filmed, or the newscopter reporting a live crime scene?

When I see the POLICE beating someone on the ground with a baton, a flashlight, or doing some of the dangerous techniques they are taught for self defense for immobilizing a suspect. I cringe at some of the applications they use in real life verses what they were trained to do.

My God Man! Smack 'em here and their arm goes numb! Or, Smack'em there and their legs go out and they are on the ground. Or, twist 'em like this and let them break their own arm as they try to wiggle out of a restraint. All these little things are found in a variety of martial arts, NOT just Kyusho Jitsu. Ask your instructor, and if they are well versed in their art, they must include pressure point / acupuncture studies if they are a serious martial art practitioner.

Maybe the old officer with his billy-club knew more about striking a human being than was let on by some well loved policemen who could control a suspect who was able to work 12 hours a day, 6 days a week, and the poor policeman of today needs three officers to do the same takedown? Go figure.

Whether they realized it or not, they were hitting pressure points on the body with the correct angle and direction with the proper amount of force to cause a physical reaction that was more than enough to drop that human being.

Yeah, most people will never use of need to use that type of knowledge, and that is fine for them. But the few of us who keep studying and learning our chosen art ... it is inevitable that our studies will create a melting pot of martial techniques that become our chosen martial arts techniques.

It is strictly my opinion but ....

Most students are brainwashed little robots who can't see the big picture of martial arts until they have put in a number of years of study, and been around the block a hundred times or so. But ... it doesn't have to be that way ... does it?

Now don't get all bent out of shape, because we all get what we need, not what we want, even those with more money than god, are lacking something that the common slob has and they can't possibly understand or get.

Figure out what it is that you need, and take what you need from where ever you can find it, and then name it what ever you want to because ... it works for you! I am not sure how far or how long anyone is meant to search as even the greatest of teachers never believed they were anything but students, and they venerated and respected their teachers despite the fact that their skills were greater or less than their teachers, just as the people we encounter in our chosen practice may someday become greater than ourselves or our teachers, or not.

Kyusho Jitsu?

No big deal.

Just another resource for learning a piece of the big puzzle for YOUR martial arts practice.

ppko
13th July 2004, 13:20
a very good post