View Full Version : Teaching iai-do with kendo
Ken-Hawaii
18th July 2004, 04:31
Maeda-Sensei recently announced to the students of Kaifukan dojo (Kailua, Oahu, Hawaii) that all kenshi will be required to study MJER iai-do once they reach the rank of ikkyu.
This brings a number of questions to mind: Are many other kendo dojos requiring iai-do? Has it helped the quality of kendo? Have more students joined because of the addition of iai-do? How old should students be before they start iai-do?
I personally think that this is an excellent approach, but as a novice in iai-do, I would appreciate comments, suggestions, & observations on this topic. Thanks!
Ken
Moniteur
18th July 2004, 06:24
Originally posted by Ken-Hawaii
Maeda-Sensei recently announced to the students of Kaifukan dojo (Kailua, Oahu, Hawaii) that all kenshi will be required to study MJER iai-do once they reach the rank of ikkyu.
This brings a number of questions to mind: Are many other kendo dojos requiring iai-do? Has it helped the quality of kendo? Have more students joined because of the addition of iai-do? How old should students be before they start iai-do?
I personally think that this is an excellent approach, but as a novice in iai-do, I would appreciate comments, suggestions, & observations on this topic. Thanks!
Ken
Hi Ken,
I haven't heard of that really, but I gotta admit, I like it. Then again, I come from a rather classical sabre background (Radaelli-Santelli, and Toth) and can't hardly stomach the modern game... I've been in bogu a few times, and get the same vibes off it as the modern foil game.. no thanks. I'll stick with iai and kenjutsu.
I wonder if this is your sensei's attempt to get things back to their roots, and re-inject a bit more classical form and other things into peoples overall understanding.
Interesting to say the least.
What do you do in the fencing world (ie background/style)?
Later,
chris
GarethB
18th July 2004, 08:16
I used to be a member of a kendo club in Melbourne, Australia, which teaches both kendo and iaido (ZNKR Seitei Gata). I was one of a small group of people only doing iaido without any kendo, most of the people doing iaido there also did kendo as well, but most of the kendoka only did kendo without any iaido. It was up to each member to decide for themself what they would do, only kendo, only iaido, or both.
The head instructor at that club believes that kendo and iaido are two sides of the same coin and that both are incomplete without the other. Kendo can give you a better sense of timing and distance, but shinai don't handle the same as a katana. Iaido gives you a more realistic hands on experience of using an actual sword, including techniques which aren't taught in kendo any more because they don't fit in with modern kendo (try side-stepping your opponant and attacking from an angle in a kendo bout and see what people say :D ).
Ken-Hawaii
18th July 2004, 08:58
Aloha, Chris:
Wow, another serious fencer! Cool! I'm a three-weapons kinda' guy, although I think saber would be my weapon of choice if I was forced to choose just one. I started at the grand old age of 5, & so am rapidly approaching 53 years as a fencer.
Like you & Gareth, I don't study kendo, but for a different reason. My wife became interested in kendo 3 years ago, & I was sorely tempted to start. But as I already have decades of judo & fencing under my obi, I decided not to compete with her -- & I'm happy I made that decision. I do own bogu, but am simply Linda's "kendo dummy," & help her increase hand-speed via a few tricks from fencing. She'll never make sandan without considerable help.
We both love iai-do, & it serves as a good way to bring us together. She can help me learn the fine points of jodan, & I can help her with bladework.
Kaifukan has 25 students, 6 of whom study iai-do; I'm the only non-kendoka. Over the past 60 days, we've added 10 new students, half of whom are under 14, & so those won't be eligible for ikkyu for a few more years. But a 14-year-old with even an iaito doesn't give me a warm, fuzzy feeling. Think of them with a rapier, Chris, & you'll understand my feelings!:eek: :eek:
I like Gareth's comment that kendo & iai-do are two sides of the same coin, & agree that's a good description. As none of the other Hawaii dojos require iai-do, however, I am still interested in ideas on how to help Sensei implement his approach.
Thank you both for your feedback.
Ken
hyaku
18th July 2004, 13:04
Well ZNKR did try to push it. Problem is people especially Kendo already have a very tight seven days week yearly schedule. Will it help the quality of Kendo? Yes it will help the Kata. Also there is a down side. Iai orientated people tend to be very heavy hitters and slow movers. Few do both.
Age limit? Local ZNIR club has kids practicing with MSR with wakizashi. Good activity.
Chidokan
18th July 2004, 20:07
nothing wrong with doing both... I do. There is a good history of well known modern swordsmen doing both arts, and in my mind each one complements the other, problem as Hyaku says is finding the time for both. As I am currently doing 4 nights iaido and 2 nights kendo my 'boss' is complaining....:rolleyes:
Hyaku,
anyone do a tsuka suitable for converting a waki into an iaito for a nine year old or will I have to bite the bullet and make it myself? I think I can get a blade the right length and can modify a saya easily enough...
hyaku
18th July 2004, 21:36
Originally posted by Chidokan
nothing wrong with doing both... I do. There is a good history of well known modern swordsmen doing both arts, and in my mind each one complements the other, problem as Hyaku says is finding the time for both. As I am currently doing 4 nights iaido and 2 nights kendo my 'boss' is complaining....:rolleyes:
Hyaku,
anyone do a tsuka suitable for converting a waki into an iaito for a nine year old or will I have to bite the bullet and make it myself? I think I can get a blade the right length and can modify a saya easily enough...
I'll pop down to Mashima on the corner and check it out when I can.
Ken-Hawaii
19th July 2004, 04:32
Maeda-Sensei must be short of time, too. He teaches kendo 3 times a week, but iai-do only once a week. With a significantly larger class size coming up soon, I doubt that once will be enough. I know that I would rather have 2-3 iai-do classes each week, as I enjoy it immensely, & feel that I am progressing too slowly.
Chikodan's question raises a similar one for Kaifukan. Most of our 14-year-old students are just about 5 feet tall; what length iaito would be appropriate? And is this length available, or will they need to be made from a waki?
Chikodan, although I was a fairly experienced fencer by age 9 (fencing foils are remarkably dull), is it normal to have a child that age handling an iaito? If so, my 10-year-old granddaughter should also be starting iai-do. Thanks in advance for your input.
Ken
Brian Owens
19th July 2004, 09:57
Originally posted by Ken-Hawaii
...Chikodan's question raises a similar one for Kaifukan. Most of our 14-year-old students are just about 5 feet tall; what length iaito would be appropriate? And is this length available, or will they need to be made from a waki?...
Here is a chart of commonly available iaito lengths. At the upper and lower ends of the range there may be none in stock at most suppliers, so custom ordering with the consequent waiting times may be required.
The height guidelines are just that, not hard-and-fast rules, and your sensei should be consulted before ordering.
Also, since teenagers will soon outgrow any iaito, individual swords should probably be from the "bargain" category, as far as fittings, saya, etc., although dojo-owned weapons that are loaned/rented could benefit from being from the top-grade lines.
Even bargain-priced iaito from a quality supplier will not be cheap, of course, and the really low-cost, Taiwanese and Spanish swords sold in popular magazines should best be avoided at any price.
HTH.
GarethB
19th July 2004, 10:27
I'm wondering if the 14 year olds would be better off using wood bokken. I can think of a number of reasons to consider this. A wood bokken is going to cost less than an iaito, so for the parents it's a reduced cost to them. It's also a way of waiting until they're close to their full growth, then they can get an iaito that's the proper length for them.
I'm not deeply familiar wth MJER but I have seen it and I can't think of any technique or action in it which I've seen that can't be done with a bokken instead of an iaito. The only things I can think of which may not be quite right would be the draw and noto due to not having a saya, but I've heard people mention plastic saya for bokken before, so even that might not be an issue. Bokken are also a traditional item, so there shouldn't be any embarressment or disappointment using them instead of an iaito. If bokken were good enough for real samurai to train with in the past, they're still good enough for us to train with today.
I recently joined a Shinkendo group here in Australia, which teaches the Nakamura version of Toyama ryu iaido. The entire group uses bokken for all solo work, including Toyama ryu, and waxwood bokuto for paired work (the grain of waxwood resists splintering/cracking better than the woods normally used for bokken, but it's supplied in straight pieces, not curved like bokken). Although I have an iaito from when I did Seitei iai, I doubt that I'll ever need to bring it to class, there doesn't seem to be anything I've seen so far that I can't do properly with a bokken or waxwood bokuto.
Brian Owens
19th July 2004, 10:43
Originally posted by GarethB
I'm wondering if the 14 year olds would be better off using wood bokken....I can't think of any technique or action in it which I've seen that can't be done with a bokken instead of an iaito. The only things I can think of which may not be quite right would be the draw and noto due to not having a saya, but I've heard people mention plastic saya for bokken before...there doesn't seem to be anything I've seen so far that I can't do properly with a bokken or waxwood bokuto.
I agree that a bokken is a good place to start, and can continue to be used for some aspects of training, however the finer points of blade control -- nukitsuke, hasuji, noto, etc. can only be approximated with a bokken, even the ones with a saya, as the dimensions and balance are somewhat different.
GarethB
19th July 2004, 13:35
That thought had crossed my mind, since a bokken is an approximation of an actual sword.
In the case of Shinkendo, tameshigiri is also taught (although I haven't been learning it long enough to start that yet) which helps address some of the finer points of blade control. All of the solo exercises can be performed with an iaito, but in the formal classes we stick to bokken.
My impression is that Toshishiro Obata, the founder of Shinkendo doesn't think very highly of the modern alloy iaito and would prefer Shinkendo students to use steel mogito if he could find a someone who could make them the way he wants them. The problem is that Shinkendo is very new and very small. Obata Sensei has very particular standards of what he wants a blade to be like which makes finding a company that will make them to his specifications at a reasonable price and in the small numbers he wants difficult. If he was prepared to order a thousand of them in a single batch, he could probably get what he wants from just about any of the major companies, but he doesn't need that many in a single batch and the cost of an entire batch that size would still be prohibitive.
Charles Mahan
19th July 2004, 14:14
The above chart seems woefully short for MJER practice. We trend a little longer than average. I'm 5'6" and I'm swinging a 2-4-5, although a 2-5 would be managable. According to that chart I should be using something between a 2-3-5 and a 2-4.
If the student is pretty much full grown there's no good reason not to order an iaito, but I'd certainly recommend a cheaper one as they may still change sizes and end up needing a bigger one. Probably better to err on the longer side. A little extra length will force you into good saya-biki although in the interim you'll be carving your saya up for sure.
Aozora
19th July 2004, 15:14
I used a chart like that and I wound up with a 2-3-5 (I'm 5'8"), that got dubbed quickly by my sensei as "Sting." Like Charles, I use a 2-4-5 now and, with my monkey arms, could go 2-5.
Getting back to the thread at hand, the kendo club I belong to does not require iai, however, I've been doing MJER iai longer than kendo, and I can definitely see the benefits for a club that does both. I can say it is difficult to keep both separate and then seeing where you can have crossover applications. Mostly for me, I've found the finger work in iai has helped my kendo, and the rapid ashi-sabaki of kendo has made my iai more smooth and made me more dextrous on my feet. Relatively speaking, I've no great experience in either kendo or iai, so I can only speak to technical issues, but I think that in the long run, both can benefit the practice of the other and I know I feel better for having done both.
Ken-Hawaii
19th July 2004, 18:48
Brian, that's a great chart! I hadn't seen one like it before, & wish that it was more widely disseminated. Did you create it, or was it posted somewhere? I'm definitely passing it on to Maeda-Sensei.
Linda & I were lucky enough to purchase our iaito while we were visiting family in Tokyo. As we were totally clueless about the correct length, & our Japanese definitely did not extend to detailed conversations about iai-do, we left the fitting up to our son's mother-in-law. After measuring our height & reach, a long conversation ensued which (we found out later) discussed our degree of aggressiveness & participation in other martial arts.
At 5'10", I ended up with a 2-5-5, & Linda (at 5'5") with a 2-4-5. And although sayabiki & noto were definitely problematic at first, we now appreciate the extra length. As several of you have commented, hip movement is key.
Gareth's comments on using bokuto are worth following up on. With a quick Google, I found the Web-site http://smaa.techwood.net/sword.htm, whose products look interesting. Have any of you dealt with them before? I priced out a basic bokuto with saya at around $250, which starts moving students into the lower end of iaito. I also located the following links page which may be useful: http://www3.sympatico.ca/iaido/other.htm.
I'm not sure if Maeda-Sensei is planning on having all ikkyu & yudansha students buy iaito, or whether he will have a few to borrow/rent. But as I've been asked to help him find alternatives, I truly appreciate all of your feedback. :D
Ken
Chidokan
19th July 2004, 21:30
I am always wary about teaching small children, as they have the attention span of a dead gnat...:rolleyes: However I do give them a chance to prove they are of a serious disposition, and a lot of it depends on their maturity. Most kids under 10 I would not let out of my sight, let alone give them a bokken. In this case he is settling down quite well, and is now capable of fixing his attention long enough to complete a waza. As for the iaito, he is still a while off, probably Xmas, but by then I think he will be capable of using one for a short while. The problem is getting one light enough not to overstress his joints and with a small enough tsuka for him to hold. I have already taken down a light bokken to size, but the problem with the saya for bokken is that they will inevitably be quite large in diameter, and his hands are still quite small. This is why I am looking at converting a waki.
As for bokken at $250, you must be mad to pay that much! At large sizes I find it easy just to make my own along with the saya, you get the exact length you want, as well as the balance and wood type. And I get to play with tools like routers...:D I reckon a home made 'custom' bokken will nearly cost me $10, and with saya - nearly $15!;)
Brian Owens
19th July 2004, 22:02
Originally posted by Ken-Hawaii
Brian, that's a great chart! I hadn't seen one like it before, & wish that it was more widely disseminated. Did you create it, or was it posted somewhere? I'm definitely passing it on to Maeda-Sensei.
I got it from an iaito dealer's Web site (don't recall which one) then put it in a n Excel grid one my computer. It's aimed at a general audience and that's why I said to check with your sensei prior to ordering from it.
As Charles pointed out, some schools tend toward longer swords, while others tend toward shorter swords. This sort of splits the difference.
Brian Owens
20th July 2004, 10:27
Originally posted by Aozora
I used a chart like that and I wound up with a 2-3-5 (I'm 5'8"), that got dubbed quickly by my sensei as "Sting." Like Charles, I use a 2-4-5 now and, with my monkey arms, could go 2-5.
I wonder whose chart you got hold of. Mine shows a 2.35 being appropriate for someone who's 5'5" and would suggest a 2.45 for you.
Ken, one "rule-of-thumb" for picking a size is to hold a sword, bokken, or jo and relax the wrist so the blade points downward. Then swing the right arm back and forth, and the tip should just clear the ground. Then measure from the tip to where it meets the grip, and subtract one inch. That's your blade length.
There are many other ways to determine length, but asking your sensei is always a good path.
Charles Mahan
20th July 2004, 13:16
Again Brian, while that test is common, it is very off for MJER. When I do that, the blade touches the ground a good 6 to 8 inches in front of what would be vertical. MJER trends a bit on the long side.
Long story short, only your instructor can really tell you what you need. Nobody else's word counts for squat.
Aozora
20th July 2004, 14:58
Originally posted by Yagyu Kenshi
I wonder whose chart you got hold of. Mine shows a 2.35 being appropriate for someone who's 5'5" and would suggest a 2.45 for you.
It was actually Tozando's chart, now that I think about it. This was four years ago, so it may have changed. That and proportions for Americans vs. Japanese are different from what I understand.
I think your comment about 'ask your sensei' is the best thing--most should have some opinions about which supplier they like best and can definitely guide you on sword lengths.
Chidokan
22nd July 2004, 21:33
its a bit off for Hyaku's sword aint it??!!:D
Ken-Hawaii
22nd July 2004, 23:08
I must have missed somewhere how long Hyaku's sword is. Does he use a 3-0-0 or something?
Ken
Charles Mahan
23rd July 2004, 00:35
It's a wee tiny bit bigger than a 3-0-0 :D
Ken-Hawaii
23rd July 2004, 01:00
So okay, Charles, just what IS Hyaku using? A cut-down oar like Miyamoto Musashi?
I've only been posting here for a month or so, & am obviously not up to date with all of the scuttlebutt....:p
Ken
Charles Mahan
23rd July 2004, 01:04
See for yourself http://www.hyoho.com/Nkage2.html
You will know it when you see it.
Ken-Hawaii
23rd July 2004, 02:04
GREAT LEAPING CRABAPPLES!!! He could carve up a pizza in the next county!! How tall is Hyaku?
I'm going to have to read up on the Kage-ryu tradition Hyaku refers to, Charles, as I'm not at all familiar with it. That is quite a blade -- I wouldn't want to do sayabiki with it, that's for sure! :eek:
Ken
gendzwil
23rd July 2004, 15:05
Am I the only one having trouble with Colin's pages? None of the photos load - just a bunch of red Xs.
Chidokan
23rd July 2004, 17:54
Hyaku's only three foot two, the sword is 2.4 shaku long:D
Neil, you must be missing something in the p.c.... Mine does that when it doesn't recognise a file format like mpeg, jpeg etc...
Ken-Hawaii
23rd July 2004, 20:23
Neil, you're probably using Internet Explorer, & let me guess that you just installed Windows XP Service Pack 2 -- right? If so, you may need to download & reinstall IE6; no known workaround. Sorry.
Tim, I'm sure that Hyaku's katana (what do you call that thing, anyway??) is a sight to behold in person. But I'm not sure I'd have enough wall-space to hang it! Is there a link to historical data on the Kage-ryu blades? Couldn't find one, other than Colin's.
Ken
hyaku
23rd July 2004, 23:06
Hello there
The swords are owned by those that practice not the ryu. We have strict policy of not using anyone elses weapon. Seems that most hand them on down to future generations. My Shihan sent his to a grandson when he finished.
Also some settle for a lighter slightly shorter weapon as they get older.
I don't display weapons and dont use sword bags.
Ken-Hawaii
27th July 2004, 07:47
Hyaku, I'm assuming that "Shihan" is pretty equivalent to "Hanshi" -- is that correct?
In any case, thank you for sharing your super-tachi with us on your Web-site. I might not have believed the description, otherwise.
Ken
gendzwil
31st July 2004, 21:04
Nope, they are often confused but they aren't interchangable. See here (http://www.koryu.com/library/mskoss9.html) for a detailed explanation.
Ken-Hawaii
1st August 2004, 04:59
Thanks, Neil. That was very interesting, to say the least.
And useful, as we had an iai-do nanadan hanshi from Japan show up unexpectedly at our dojo this afternoon!
Ken
Chidokan
1st August 2004, 17:54
Neil,
Chidokan
1st August 2004, 18:14
AAArgh...why does Norton always choose to hit me while i reply to threads??:D
Neil,
just read your reference to shihan... I was presented with a fan saying this a couple of years ago, but did not really attach any significance to it other than that I just stood at the front and taught. I think from my viewpoint it does not make me a 'master' by any means, I still have a long way to go yet (I hope!:D). I'd prefer to think it translates as teacher and no more. My 'old style' qualifications are still a long way off, many years in fact to get to anywhere near a menkyo. I think I was given it, along with a few other teachers in the association, as a formal sort of recognition that I teach on a regular basis. Only thing I would say is that it seems not to be related to grade, (however all of us are above godan..) similar to the hanshi/renshi form of recognition.:
gendzwil
2nd August 2004, 17:30
I know that hombu aikido associates shihan with rank, I believe rokudan. Not sure if anybody else does. In the kendo world, shihan seems to be a title associated with a position at a particular school, X-sensei, kyoshi hachidan, shihan of X-prefecture police dojo for example.
Ken-Hawaii
2nd August 2004, 17:52
We had a real thrill at iai-do practice this past Saturday. Ikenaga-Sensei, an MJER hachidan, came to practice with us. Quite an eye-opener for all us novices!
Maeda-Sensei is iai-do godan, but we could really see the difference in those three ranks. Instead of our usual hour, we practiced for nearly three, & most of us could barely move our arms at the end. We had nearly everyone show up (for once), & the dojo newbies were wide-eyed as Ikenaga-Sensei taught us the myriad small details that make iai-do an art. We're still working through Seitei Gata, so it wasn't as bad as it might have been.
The fact that everyone will be studying iai-do as soon as they reach ikkyu wasn't lost on the new kendo practitioners. And those of us studying MJER have petitioned Maeda-Sensei to increase the number of weekly classes from one to at least two, & preferably three.
The best news is that Ikenaga-Sensei has a condo in Waikiki, & now plans to attend our dojo whenever he's in town. And Linda & I have decided to increase our strength regimen so we can survive!:D
Brian Owens
2nd August 2004, 18:50
Originally posted by gendzwil
I know that hombu aikido associates shihan with rank, I believe rokudan. Not sure if anybody else does.
Hayashi-ha Shito Ryu (karate-do) does, also at rokudan IIR.
Originally posted by gendzwil
In the kendo world, shihan seems to be a title associated with a position at a particular school, X-sensei, kyoshi hachidan, shihan of X-prefecture police dojo for example.
In Aikido Seiki Kai, and Seiki Ryu kenjutsu/jodo, we refered to the senior teacher at each branch only as "sensei," and we addressed Kurita sensei as "sensei" in addressing him or refering to him personaly, but his formal title was Saiko Shihan (Head Master?); also he is Kaicho (Chairman) of the Seiki Kai Kokusai Budo Renmei organization.
gendzwil
3rd August 2004, 05:30
Originally posted by Yagyu Kenshi
In Aikido Seiki Kai, and Seiki Ryu kenjutsu/jodo, we refered to the senior teacher at each branch only as "sensei," and we addressed Kurita sensei as "sensei" in addressing him or refering to him personaly, but his formal title was Saiko Shihan (Head Master?); also he is Kaicho (Chairman) of the Seiki Kai Kokusai Budo Renmei organization.
Well, yeah. You might refer to somebody by their fancy-schmancy titles when introducing them to people, but when addressing someone my experience is that "sensei" is always OK and almost universally preferred. I get somewhat suspicious if people are required to call their instructors something else.
gendzwil
3rd August 2004, 05:34
Originally posted by Ken-Hawaii
We had a real thrill at iai-do practice this past Saturday. Ikenaga-Sensei, an MJER hachidan, came to practice with us. Quite an eye-opener for all us novices!
Maeda-Sensei is iai-do godan, but we could really see the difference in those three ranks.
Godan isn't really a very high rank. Think of it as "junior instructor". Think of hachidan as "iaido god". The progression is by no means linear.
Ken-Hawaii
3rd August 2004, 07:19
I'm well aware of that, Neil, but godan is a darn sight better than we iai-do novices are!
Ken
Chidokan
3rd August 2004, 19:28
anyone calls me sensei I get suspicious, never mind any other title...unless I am at least twice their age and I ain't going to admit that for a long time yet....:D
I think of godan as.... its time to stop being a beginner.(As it was pointed out to me a while ago by my sensei!)
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