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Ade
22nd July 2004, 13:06
Dear All

Gassho

In the new Tokuhon, as in the old Fukudokuhon, the topic of shin ryoku, (mental strength) is discussed.

It states

"It is important for a Shorinji Kempo practitioner to nourish daily the guts (courage) needed so that whatever the circumstances one is not disconcerted, one feels neither dread nor confusion, one's breathing and Ki are unaffected, and one can deal with anything while maintaining a natural state of calm (Heijoshin.)"

I was talking to my wife last night whilst watching some rubbish movie about Sandra Bullock, playing a cop, scouring a house for a murderer.

Emma bans me from reality comments during such tripe but it was too much and I started to pour scorn; "why isn't she looking scared/breathing hard/didn't she wait for backup/go back to her car and get a pump action shotgun/switch the lights on? etc."

Which started a conversation about what it's like to look for somebody in a dark building at night knowing that they could be dangerous if you catch them.

I'm not afraid to say, from personal experience, that it's frightening and your heart beats very fast and you're scared.

But I'm also of the opinion that adrenalin has a natural heightening effect on the senses and as long as you can go some way to harnessing its benefits you will be faster, more focused and better prepared to deal with whatever happens.

I believe that few people are impervious to fear, and I'm dubious as to any claim that it's a skill that all can acquire through any practice.

But there are some.

In a documentary shown on channel 4 as part of "The Sopranos" season finale last Sunday evening; there was an interview with a real Mafia hit man. The program, entitled, "The Iceman Confesses: Secrets of a Mafia Hit man" introduced Richard Kuklinski to the viewing public.

An account of a prison visit by a writer and Kuklinski's chilling biog can be found here (http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/mass/kuklinski2/1.html) or here (http://massmurder.zyns.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-673.html)

Interestingly at the end of the TV interview the interviewer, (a trick cyclist of distinction,) asked Kuklinski what he wanted to ask him.
Kuklinski paused then said “what do you think of me?” and the psychiatrist passed judgement about how he was born missing something that made him feel fear and horror like the rest of us, he used analogies of famous war heroes who he stated were similar, unlike the heroes; however; Kuklinski wasn't bound by any form of restraint and experimented with others suffering in a quest to provoke a reaction in himself, testing his own limits of humanity.

I had never seen anyone that wasn't capable of fear and thus beyond any reasonable constraint thus personifying evil, but at one point in the programme the psychiatrist annoyed Kuklinski, he recounts;

"Then without even knowing it, I triggered a response in him that chilled me to the bone. New Jersey State Supervising Investigator Paul Smith had warned me about the “shark look.” Smith, who was a key member of the task force that investigated, arrested, and successfully prosecuted the Iceman, refused to elaborate. “You’ll know it when you see it” was all he would say. Smith was right. I did know it when I saw it.
I had shown Kuklinski a note he had sent me along with a newspaper clipping regarding the recent sentencing of reputed Genovese crime family capo Louis “Streaky” Gatto.
I read the items he had written on the note out loud: “Blazing Bucks Ranch… Serrone Pastries… Rt. 46 W…. Howard Johnson… 10 pops… Hawaiian Moon….”
Suddenly his face contorted and froze, and his eyes rolled back. For a split second I could see only white in his eyes.
Sharks roll their eyes back this way in the instant before they attack.
The Iceman didn’t raise his hands or motion toward me in any way, but he didn’t have to.
If the Devil has a face, for a split second I saw it.
I immediately dropped that line of questioning and moved on to something else. (The “shark look” reappeared later in the interview when I asked Kuklinski about one of his children.)"

I believe that Kuklinski truly demonstrates Heijoshin; indeed he spoke about his dislike of killing people with a chain saw because it ruined his shirt and makes a big mess to clean up afterwards, but would you really want it, at such a cost?

Ade

Ade
22nd July 2004, 13:57
Dear All

Having just re-read the post I would hurridly add that in no way am I suggesting our practice aims for this goal.

The ending was also meant to be different but e-budo went mad and posted an unfinished draft.

What I was trying to say was that I don't believe that normal people can ever totally control fear in all circumstances, but that Shorinji Kempo practice gives you a way to control some effects of adrenalin and to deal with stressful situations appropriately, unlike Kuklinski.

Sorry for any upset caused.

Ade

PS Moderators please add this to the original post.

Ewok
22nd July 2004, 14:40
Thats a really interesting post. I did write something up but couldnt think of a decent wrapup. But basically fear is a mental thing, you make fear out of situations. I hate snakes, spiders and sharks, but if im with someone whos more scared than I am its not a problem anymore....

I guess you could overcome fear but it wouldn't be easy (or pretty....)

David Dunn
22nd July 2004, 15:00
I don't particularly want to develop the mentality of a psychopath. I read (sorry) the News of the World's profiles of the 50 worst offenders presently alive in UK jails. One of them, the name escapes me, was in for something like armed robbery. He then garotted two other prisoners one morning and calmly announced to the screw that "roll call will be two short today." (Later he sharpened a spoon, killed another prisoner and opened his head like a boiled egg).

[Aside - translation of 'hara' as 'guts'?]

Heijoshin means 'everyday mind', the aim being to have the same feeling towards everything that happens. Once in Euston dojo a window crashed shut during howa, and many people jumped, presumably with the accompanying adrenalin and increased heart rate. Mizuno Sensei used it as an example of not having heijoshin. I did it myself the other day, walking home through the park, just after dark, an animal rustled in the bushes, and my heart raced. Camping last week, I went to the loo at about 2am, and got creeped out in the sanitary block, for apparently no reason. As I left I noticed a bloke skulking around in the shadows. He said 'bon soir' when I clocked him.

Anyway, I'm rambling. Here is the link that I wanted to provide.
http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=15584
Very interesting. There is some other stuff of this ilk on e-budo. I don't think that you can eradicate fear, unless you're a psycho, but you learn to operate with it, and not get overwhelmed by it.

Talking of 'brave' fictional police officers going into murderers houses, Silence of the Lambs anyone? I'd have waited ten mins for the 1000 backup officers.

Kimpatsu
22nd July 2004, 16:33
Originally posted by David Dunn
[Aside - translation of 'hara' as 'guts'?]
Gassho, sensei.
Only literally. "Presence (of mind)" or "determination (of spirit)" would have been better translations.
Kesshu.

Ade
22nd July 2004, 16:43
...Hara Kiri would mean "presence" cutting or "determination" cutting.....strange?

Kimpatsu
22nd July 2004, 17:00
Originally posted by Ade
...Hara Kiri would mean "presence" cutting or "determination" cutting.....strange?
No; you are committing the sin of translitreation. Yes, the literal, word-for-word correllation of "hara" is "belly", but the concept is used differently in Japanese, as a synonym for awareness. Think of English expressions such as "guts" (courage), "bilious" (nauseous), "phlegmatic" (resigned), "saturnine"... etc., etc. These terms are all derived from prescientific European views of the body, as is "hara" from a day that precedes Old Mother Green Tea.
Of course, once you speak Japanese, you'll be entitled to have an opinion... :rolleyes:

Ade
22nd July 2004, 17:20
Dear Tony

I don't need to, these guys employ Japanese people that do.

hara-kiri [här'u-kEr'E, har'u–] [Jap.,=belly-cutting], the traditional Japanese form of honorable suicide, also known by its Chinese equivalent, seppuku. It was practiced by the Japanese feudal warrior class in order to avoid falling into enemy hands. Around 1500, it became a privileged alternative to execution, granted to daimyo and samurai guilty of disloyalty to the emperor. The condemned man received a jeweled dagger from the emperor. He selected as his second a faithful friend, received official witnesses, and plunged the dagger into the left side of his abdomen, drew it across to the right, and made a slight cut upward; his second then beheaded him with one stroke of a sword, and the dagger was returned to the emperor. Around 1700, it became permissible to go through a semblance of disembowelment prior to beheading. Voluntary hara-kiri was resorted to after a private misfortune, out of loyalty to a dead master, or to protest the conduct of a living superior.

Obligatory hara-kiri was abolished in 1868, but its voluntary form has persisted. It was performed by 40 military men in 1895 as a protest against the return of conquered territory, the Liaotung peninsula, to China; by General Nogi on the death of Emperor Meiji in 1912; and by numerous soldiers as an alternative to surrender in World War II. Hara-kiri was much discussed in recent years in connection with the death, in 1970, of Mishima, the well-known novelist and rightist political leader.

For detailed accounts of hara-kiri, see A. B. F. Redesdale, Tales of Old Japan (1919).

The Columbia Electronic Encyclopedia, 6th ed. Copyright © 2004, Columbia University Press.


HARA-KIRI (Japanese hara, belly, and kin, cutting), selfdisembowelment, primarily the method of suicide permitted to offenders of the noble class in feudal Japan, and later the national form of honorable suicide. Hara-kiri has been often translated as the happy dispatch in confusion with a native euphemism for the act. More usually the Japanese themselves speak of hara-kiri by its Chinese synonym, Sep puku. Hara-kiri is not an aboriginal Japanese custom. It was a growth of medieval militarism, the act probably at first being prompted by the desire of the noble to escape the humiliation. of falling into an enemys hands. By the end of the 14th century the custom had become a much valued privilege, being formally established as such under the Ashi-Kaga dynasty. Hara-kiri was of two kinds, obligatory and, voluntary. The first is the more ancient. An official or noble, who had broken the law or been disloyal, received a message from the emperor, couched always in sympathetic and gracious tones, courteously intimating that he must die. The mikado usually sent a jewelled dagger with which the deed might be done. The suicide had so many days allotted to him by immemorial custt~m in which to make dignified preparations for the ceremony, which was attended by the utmost formality. In his own. baronial hail or in a temple a daIs 3 or ~ in. from the ground was constructed. Upon this was laid a rug of red felt. The suicide, clothed in his ceremonial dress as an hereditary noble, and accompanied by his second or Kaishaku, took his place on the mat, the officials and his friends ranging themselves in a semicircle round the dais. After a minutes prayer the weapon. was handed to him with many obeisances by the mikados representative, and he then made a public confession of his fault. He then stripped to the waist. Every movement in the grim ceremony- was governed by precedent, and he had to tuck his wide sleeves under his knees to prevent himself falling backwards, for a Japanese noble must die falling forward. A moment later he plunged the dagger into his stomach below the waist on. the left side, drew it across to the right and, turning it, gave a slight cut upward. At the same moment the Kaishaku who crouched at his friends side, leaping up, brought his sword down on the outstretched neck. At the conclusion of the ceremony the bloodstained dagger was taken to the mikado as a proof of the consummation of the heroic act. The performance of hara-kiri carried with it certain privileges. If it was by order of the mikado half only of a traitors property was forfeited to the state. If the gnawings of conscience drove the disloyal noble to voluntary suicide, his dishonour was wiped out, and his family inherited all his fortune.
Voluntary hara-kiri was the refuge of men rendered desperate by private misfortunes, or was committed from loyalty to a dead superior, or as a protest against what was deemed a false national policy. This voluntary suicide still survives, a characteristic case being that of Lieutenant Takeyoshi who in. I891.gave himself the belly-cut in front of the graves of his ancestors at TOkyo as a protest against what he considered the criminal lethargy of the government in not taking precautions against possible Russian encroachments to the north of Japan. In the RussoJapanese War, when faced by defeat at Vladivostock, the officer in command of the troops on the transport Kinshu Maru committed hara-kiri. Hara-kiri has not been uncommon among women, but in their case the mode is by cutting the throat. The popularity of this self-immolation is testified to by the fact that for centuries no fewer than 1500 hara-kiris are said to have taken place annually, at least half being entirely voluntary. Stories of amazing heroism are told in connection with the performance of the act. One noble, barely out of his teens, not content with giving himself the customary cuts, slashed himself thrice horizontally and twice vertically. Then he stabbed himself in the throat until the dirk protruded on the other side with the sharp edge to the front, and with a supreme effort drove the knife forward with both hands through his neck. Obligatory hara-kiri was obsolete in the middle of the I9th century, and was actually abolished in 1868.

See A. B. Mitford, Tales of Old Japan; Basil Hall Chamberiain, Things Japanese (1898). Encyclopedia Britannica.

Welcome back.

Now that the language debate is over back to the thread......(ho hum, situation normal!)

Ewok
22nd July 2004, 17:41
Harakiri is a nominal compound word, a shortened version of 'hara wo kiru' which means the same thing as the compound.

I think the other hara with reference to guts may have come about (did they really print guts?) to a popular bit of slang, gatsu! I never really got what it meant but its similar to the english slang meaning to 'guts', related to courage.

You missed what Tony said, just because it says hara=gut in a dictionary doesnt mean it ALWAY means that. I can dig up some amusing examples of Japanese students doing this in English if you want :)

Ie. Gut Infection =/= Courage Infection :p (2am! what am I doing up!?)
(edit: (Users Browsing this Forum: Kimpatsu, Nicky Geldart, Tripitaka of AA, DANG_BLUE, Ewok) - I so live in the wrong timezone too)

Kimpatsu
22nd July 2004, 17:45
Originally posted by Ade
I don't need to, these guys employ Japanese people that do.
But are they linguists?
Now that the language debate is over back to the thread......(ho hum, situation normal!) [/B][/QUOTE]
The labguage debate will never be over until you understand why you are wrong. Read my explanation above for why "hara" in context translates as "courage". Remember: Transliteration is mistranslation. And quoting from a dictionary compiled by lexicographers who don't speak Japanese is equally silly. Remember: Even the OED lists "gi" aws a word, which means they are just plain wrong!

Ewok
22nd July 2004, 17:55
Originally posted by Kimpatsu
Remember: Even the OED lists "gi" aws a word, which means they are just plain wrong!

It is a word but not the one I imagine they have listed. all those people proudly wearing their 'justices' while were stuck with dougi :D

Kimpatsu
22nd July 2004, 17:58
Originally posted by Ewok
It is a word but not the one I imagine they have listed. all those people proudly wearing their 'justices' while were stuck with dougi :D
If "gi" is a word, then "geri" means "kick". And we both know that's a pile of crap...

Tripitaka of AA
22nd July 2004, 18:05
Oh please Tony, not THAT example!


But seriously, that was a fine and detailed first post, which Ade appears to have misread. His dictionary entries are not as relevant to the thread as Tony's expert opinion.


[size=1 mo=ind you, that "Of course, once you speak Japanese, you'll be entitled to have an opinion... " is guaranteed to annoy people.

Ewok
22nd July 2004, 18:10
I liked Ade's post, I never knew you went left to right for seppuku

Gi IS a word.
義 【ぎ <- GI!】 (n) justice; righteousness; morality; honour;


Originally posted by Kimpatsu
If "gi" is a word, then "geri" means "kick". And we both know that's a pile of crap...

Geri is even more amusing. Diarrhea or some other kind of 'bowel' related thing. :D

Kimpatsu
22nd July 2004, 18:35
Originally posted by Ewok
Gi IS a word.
義 【ぎ <- GI!】 (n) justice; righteousness; morality; honour;
No, it's still not a word. Giri and gimu are words; ‹` is an element used to make up words.

Kimpatsu
22nd July 2004, 18:38
Originally posted by Tripitaka of AA
Mind you, that "Of course, once you speak Japanese, you'll be entitled to have an opinion... " is guaranteed to annoy people.
Why? Is it not right that those of us who aren't doctors shouldn't have medical opinions? Or those who aren't lawyers shouldn't have legal opinions? Remember: You are not entitled to your opinion; you are entitled to an informed opinion. Just because we live in an age of unwarranted egalitarianism doesn't mean we should embrace such a patently ridiculous meme. Next you'll be telling Mizuno Sensei that you know as much about Shorinji Kempo as he does...

David Dunn
22nd July 2004, 19:52
But what about heijoshin?

tracey fuller
22nd July 2004, 20:14
David Dunn writes:
But what about heijoshin?

Quite, this seemed to be an interesting discussion on psycopathy until it got hijacked by the gi, dogi debate.
WHO CARES

Apparently it has been identified that some individuals have a better capacity for dealing with stress and require higher levels of stimulation in order to produce the classic stress response (flight, fright or fight). I suppose these types of people are what you would class as thrill seekers.
So would people who jump out of aeroplanes be naturals at heijoshin? or just certifiable?
Regards Tracey

tony leith
22nd July 2004, 22:16
As I understand heijo shin, something like it would be the objective of all Buddhist practice - i.e. it isn't necessarily a martial concept, and even for us the primary application needn't be in a self defence situation. As those who know me will tell you, despite thirteen years assiduous practice of Shorinji Kempo, I am far from being an example of the finished product as far as this kind of mentality is concerned. BTW, in claiming to be assiduous I'm not claiming to be any good, but I do try hard, and have only taken time off due to injury in that period.

I started out having a vicious temper when roused, and I'm afraid it's still there. I've had to come to terms with the fact that it isn't going anywhere anytime soon. In a sense, this could be construed as meaning that my training has failed. What I do think my training has given me is a greater capacity to control my temper. This is a long way from having a genuinely 'unaffected state of mind', but it is surely an improvement, and a good thing in itself. Mizuno Sensei once went round a class I was in what we'd got out of training - when he got to me, I said "Control" "Of your temper?" "Hai, Sensei" "Mm. Me too". I found this reassuring. I don't think our discipline is intended to produce perfected saints; it's a bit more pragmatic than that.

Similarly for any other emotional response which might be provoked by a stress situation. Fear is to some extent an adaptive response - it obviously exists for good evolutionary reasons , and being devoid of it is the territory of psychopathology. I think again if we look at fear in these terms humans like the rest of the animal kingdom have a repertoire of responses to situations which evoke fear. These include the possibility of involuntarily 'playing possum' i.e. going into a kind of hysterical paralysis which precludes doing anything very useful about your situation. This would of course be an extreme response, but I think the 'rabbit in headlights' condition is found in humans too. Our training won't prevent you having the same organic responses to stress as anybody else, though it might moderate them; what it will hopefully enable you to do is stay in control of them.

I've found in that in some situations a kind of hyperalert state seems to take over. I once found myself surrounded by a group of Glasgow neds (transl. young males, typically up to no good). Because they were around me on all sides, they obviously would have the ability to overpower me, running probably wouldn't do much good. I didn't actually feel fear at the time. I just felt a sort of glacial calm indifference descend on me - at that moment I was fully reconciled to the fact that if they decided to jump me, I was toast, but that one of them would be maimed or dead as a result (I am well aware that 'thou shalt not kill' just went flying out the window), and just waited for whatever was going to happen to happen. They left me alone. Now, I'm not claiming that this was because of anything I did, but I suspect that in situations like these not evincing fear is likely to be disconcerting to potential attackers - if (big if) they're rational enough to be making calaculations about who they attack. On another day, they might well have jumped me anyway. Determining that was beyond my power - what I could do something about was how I responded to it.


Tony Leith

Ade
22nd July 2004, 22:42
Originally posted by Kimpatsu Why? Is it not right that those of us who aren't doctors shouldn't have medical opinions? Or those who aren't lawyers shouldn't have legal opinions? Remember: You are not entitled to your opinion; you are entitled to an informed opinion. Just because we live in an age of unwarranted egalitarianism doesn't mean we should embrace such a patently ridiculous meme. Next you'll be telling Mizuno Sensei that you know as much about Shorinji Kempo as he does...

I am sure that I speak for the vast majority when I say that I personally welcome Tony back to this forum.
I genuinely believe that he adds much to debate and can provide a positive addition to our bank of informed contributors.

I am also sure that I speak for a similar vast majority when I say that everyone has a right to an opinion, which can be tempered and educated by reasonable moderated discussion.

That is not a path that has been chosen here.

What I would say is that this was a discussion about whether heijoshin is a realistic ideal.

But it has been hijacked.

Doctors used to believe that trepanning was a cure for possession by bad spirits, lawyers used to advocate trial by ordeal.
But obviously dissent, by its very nature cannot be correct according to the doctrine extolled here.

As for Tony's final postulation I would suggest that as one of Sensei Mizuno's students that Dave Dunn's translation of hara is probably Sensei Mizuno's.

But perhaps Tony can educate Sensei Mizuno that he's wrong and should speak Japanese better than him before he's worthy to have an opinion, an option which apparently will never be attainable to the rest of us, rather like heijoshin, which was the point of all this, after all.

Tony, I have publicly defended you on many forums and in many discussions, why it that I am constantly disappointed with you?

If Tony cannot contain himself to reasonable debate somewhere near to the stated thread, rather than setting himself into a totally indefensible position, then I would conclude that he must be excluded from this forum.

Ade

tracey fuller
22nd July 2004, 23:49
Tony Leith writes:
They left me alone. Now, I'm not claiming that this was because of anything I did, but I suspect that in situations like these not evincing fear is likely to be disconcerting to potential attackers - if (big if) they're rational enough to be making calaculations about who they attack. On another day, they might well have jumped me anyway. Determining that was beyond my power - what I could do something about was how I responded to it.

In a book I have on t'ai chi chi kung, the author talks about heart beat listening in times of danger, this involves listening to the spaces between the beats (apparently) But maybe it's the same sort of thing that your talking about Tony, a sort of inner awareness, hyperalertness or glacial calmness as you call it.
Other stuff I've read on Taoism talks about shielding oneself with an invisible protective cloak. (Star Trek anyone)

Kimpatsu
23rd July 2004, 00:16
Originally posted by tracey fuller
WHO CARES
I care.

Tripitaka of AA
23rd July 2004, 02:36
"Glacial calmness"... ooh, I like that one.

I was discussing with a Neurologist a few years back, about my rather annoying habit of falling asleep at times of stress. I find that situations where other people get agitated, fretful or fidgety, can oft times make me slow right down and occasionally start doing the slow blink. I remembered back to occasions during exam preparation back when I was at school, settling down to revise ony to fall asleep before opening the book. I would fall asleep in the middle of a heavy conversation with Yoriko (my wife)... and still do, if she's not holding the rolling pin!

Not Heijoshin exactly, as it has few useful qualities. But it does seem to be at the other end of the scale from the wild-eyed panic, and may be a close relative to the calm "everyday" mind of Heijoshin. I wondered if the body has a chemical that is used to supress an over-secretion of adrenalin, and whether in my case I was over compensating, leading to lack of adrenalin and associated reflexes. The Consultant Neurologist listened intently to my theory, said "mmm", ordered some tests and then a few weeks later told me "there's nothing wrong with you... perhaps you should see a psychanalyst". She said it with such a calm face, she could have been a Zen Master.

Ade
23rd July 2004, 09:31
Originally posted by tracey fuller
...Apparently it has been identified that some individuals have a better capacity for dealing with stress and require higher levels of stimulation in order to produce the classic stress response (flight, fright or fight). I suppose these types of people are what you would class as thrill seekers.
So would people who jump out of aeroplanes be naturals at heijoshin? or just certifiable?...

To put it quite simply no.

There has been considerable work done in this area and the current line is that those who participate in extremely dangerous sports fall into 2 distinct categories;

Those who like to be totally out of control and enjoy the adrenalin release and thrill that the immediate proimity of certain death gives them. Base jumpers fall into this category and studies have shown that just before they actually jump that their hearts are elevated to very near maximum, (about 220bpm.)

Those who wish to totally control their situation by calm rational assessment and deliberated action in which a mistake or panic will cost them their lives. Free divers fall into this category, At the bottom of a descent heart rate has been reduced to an unparalleled 8 beats per minute, though more commonly it drops to 20 to 30 beats per minute while diving. (The average human rate is about 65 beats per minute.) At rest they can hold their breath for nearly eight minutes.

The subjects of calm in action or no action in the midst of attack are other complex subject areas both of which I have seen work on one occasion and go horribly wrong on another.

Got to go, kids need breakfast and Berlin University are on their way!

Ade

tracey fuller
23rd July 2004, 20:16
I think the base jumpers would come into the category of individuals who have a higher capacity for stress, ie they have to to do life threatening things in order to accelerate their heart rate. Whereas others might increase their heart rate by standing on a chair or seeing a spider in the bath (I'd go with the chair thing but not the spider)
You see this in children, my friend's son is completely fearless, he dives into anything and everything regardless of risk. Conversely my son stands and weighs things up before commiting and clearly has a strong sense of self preservation.
Regards Tracey

colin linz
24th July 2004, 00:14
Does an elevated heart rate preclude you from attaining this state? I have noticed when ridding motorcycles fast that my heart rate can be high, but in spite of this, and even when something dangerous and unexpected occurs, my actions and thought processes are calm. It?fs probably the only reason why I?fm still alive after 27 years of ridding them.

As Ade said earlier, our fear responses provide some positive effects. Can we learn to use these while still remaining controlled and of calm appearance? If so is this Heijoshin.

As a side note I?fm not claiming that I possess it as I suffer terribly with nervousness at times of grading or embu.

tony leith
24th July 2004, 12:04
Just occured to me that my last post could have been construed as trying to come across as an ice cool fighting machine. Far from it. That was just an interesting example of an instance where something like a state of heijo shin as described in the textbook descended on me almost involuntarily under stress. I would not be utterly confident that given the same or similar circumstances I would react in the same way. Unfortunately, I don't think our reactions to stress are necessarily that consistent. Training will probably help by essentially artificially simulating situations which induce similar physiological responses,which hopefully will make the 'real thing' easier to deal with, but there are no guarantees.

I've always been struck by the modesty of combat veterans when they're interviewed e.g during the D-Day 60th anniversary commemorations. They usually deny that they were doing anything which could be called heroic - "Me, no I was just doing my job running towards that heavy machine gun through shell fire". Partially this is because as they usually go on to point out they were in fact scared out of their minds (though of course I think this makes them more rather than less heroic), but also through an awareness that on another day they might have behaved differently.

One episode of the TV series 'Band of Brothers' - about a company of American paratroops in WWII - dealt with a soldier who found that despite intensive training actually being shot at was something his nervous system couldn't cope with. I don't find it surprising that somebody would be cowering in a ditch while under heavy fire - I actually find it more surprising that not everybody does.

The point I'm trying to make here is that I think heijo shin under situations of combat stress is not necessarily about meeting your fate with the impeturbability of a samurai warrior, but about being able to deal with and manage whatever your emotional responses might be.

As a friend used to shout exasperatedly at me 'You're not a bloody Vulcan, Tony". My preferred response of course was a quizically upraised eyebrow.

Tony Leith

Kimpatsu
24th July 2004, 12:53
Originally posted by tony leith
As a friend used to shout exasperatedly at me 'You're not a bloody Vulcan, Tony". My preferred response of course was a quizically upraised eyebrow.
Sticking your ears in a pencil sharpener whilst young didn't help either, Tony. But ou raise an interesting, if geeky, point; natural selection would favour the Vulcans very much, because with no emotions, they would have no fear, and hence no fight-or-flight response; in other words, they wouldn't know when the sensible course of action was to run away.

tony leith
24th July 2004, 18:47
I can't belive I'm actually going to make this point in a public forum, but the point about the Vulcans is that they are not naturally emotionless. Vulcan culture is supposed to have been a reaction to the violently emotional nature of their antecedents - the whole Zen stoic thing is a discipline rather than simply a narural trait. I suppose over millenia it might be possible to selectively breed for desired characteristics (works for dogs), though that's going to take a while for a species that can only reproduce once every seven years...

Having come out of the closet as a science fiction fan, I'll just slink back in and get my anorak...

Tony Leith

PS Kimpatsu, you may well be more knowledgeable about Japanese language and culture than anybody else posting here, but I'd advise you not to debate Star Trek with me ;)
PPS Apart from anything else, do we want to look like we care that much?

Kimpatsu
25th July 2004, 01:32
Originally posted by tony leith
Kimpatsu, you may well be more knowledgeable about Japanese language and culture than anybody else posting here, but I'd advise you not to debate Star Trek with me ;)
You're on, Tony. My geekiness knows no bounds.
BTW, have you checked out Hidden Frontier (www.hiddenfrontier.com)? The majority are drama students, so the acting's quite good.
Now, back to Heijoshin: Although an ideal, it's very hard to achieve. Any tips on succeeding from the branch masters?

tracey fuller
25th July 2004, 18:40
Colin Linz writes:
Does an elevated heart rate preclude you from attaining this state? I have noticed when ridding motorcycles fast that my heart rate can be high, but in spite of this, and even when something dangerous and unexpected occurs, my actions and thought processes are calm
The thing about the heart rate is that the body can only cope with the pulse being elevated to a certain level before it becomes detrimental to health. In some individuals this threshold is set at a higher point than in others.
Tony Leith writes:
Training will probably help by essentially artificially simulating situations which induce similar physiological responses,which hopefully will make the 'real thing' easier to deal with, but there are no guarantees.
I think you are right on this point. For example because of my nursing background I am not phased by what might be classed as a medical emergency but am able to deal with things in a very cool, calm manner. Similarily a fireman must learn to run into burning buildings and not panic. I'm sure Ade in his particular profession deals with physically threatening situations more frequently than the rest of us. The point is if you do something often enough you learn to deal with the fear.
P.S. The whole emotionless vulcan thing is rubbished by Tuvok having a family if you ask me.

Tripitaka of AA
25th July 2004, 19:49
Is there a way to maintain heijoshin while exhibiting all the subtle moderated action of a tasmanian devil with PMT? I refer to the self defence tactic of going berserk and flailing around in a rage of such uninhibited violence that, should anyone be foolish enough to attack, all who come within range shall be knocked unconscious immediately.

Can I still call my wide-eyed panic: heijoshin, or do I have to keep dry trousers for it to be authentic?

colin linz
26th July 2004, 01:13
Tracey,

You are right of course, but we are not talking about a sustained heart rate, or even an abnormally high heart rate. I remember reading the data from an Australian cyclist from a 20 kilometre time trial, his heart rate was over 200 for the entire time. This was amazing because he was still operating aerobically, although no doubt at his threshold. I don?ft believe that he was in any danger or will suffer health problems from it (me on the other hand would probably die). If his heart rate was always high this would of course be different. Most of these athletes have resting heart rates of around 40 bpm. This is where training falls into place. Training allows us to deal with a higher heart rate, both mentally and physically.

Being familiar with heart rate training I would estimate my heart rate when on a track ridding hard (motorcycle) would be vary from around 120 through to about 140, and could spike to 180 in times of emergency. I?fll have to wear my heart rate monitor next time I go for a ride and check it out.

The reason I have used the motorcycle example is that in both motorcycles and self-defence we have to overcome the natural responses our bodies are programmed with, with more effective responses. To do this you need to remain calm and controlled, and to a certain amount detached from what is happening to yourself; this can be done even when the physical effort is relatively high, and the heart rate has elevated above normal.

Kimpatsu
26th July 2004, 01:40
Gassho.
For those of you who are knowledgeable about this (Colin, Tracey, Ade Sensei, etc.), what would you consider to be the optimum heart rate both when at rest, and during exercise? I'd be interested to know, because then I could compare it to my own performance in the gym.
TIA and kesshu.

Ewok
26th July 2004, 07:41
I remember max heart rate is 220 - age, and optimal for training depends on what your doing. For normal cardio 50-75% of the maximum is best.

colin linz
26th July 2004, 08:16
Tony,

Heart rate training is a great tool, but you have to know what you want to achieve.

The Energy Efficient or Recovery Zone - 60% to 70%. Training within this zone develops basic endurance and aerobic capacity, this is also the area that uses fat as a fuel, so if you are thinking about weight reduction this zone is where you should be. This zone is also used in recovery sessions.

The Aerobic Zone - 70% to 80%.Training in this zone will develop your cardiovascular system. This is where you want to be if you want to be to develop your capacity to work longer at higher work rate.

The Anaerobic Zone - 80% to 90%. Training in this zone will develop your lactic acid system. In this zone your individual anaerobic threshold is found. This is where you are no longer using fat, but have moved onto the glycogen stores in your muscles. From here your performance drops considerably and your heart rate rises quickly. This training area produces the dreaded lactic acid. This training is useful in helping lift your anaerobic threshold, meaning you can work aerobically at a higher heart rate.

Before you can do any of this you need to know your maximum heart rate. This is exercise specific, so it should be identified by doing the type of exercise as you would be in normal training. So if you cycle don?ft check it by running. Working out your maximum heart rate can be risky so don?ft try to do it on your own, get someone that knows what they are doing to help you with it, and have a medical check up before doing it.

Ade
26th July 2004, 08:45
Morning All (please be quiet, I'm hungover!)

Gassho

There is a distinct difference to elevating your heart rate through cardio vascular exercise and via fear.

In the 60's the American space programme wanted to test what it's potential astronaut's "true" response was to a moment of blind panic.
For weeks they needlessly arranged complex drills involving moving about in full space suit performing maintenance exercises in swimming pools in darkness.
They fitted an extra visor to the helmet, which created total darkness and could be remotely opened very quickly.
By this point the astronauts were used to spending long periods suspended on hoists, totally in the dark, comfortable with the sensations of movement, cosseted by a controllers voice in their ear telling them what was going to happen next.
Then they slowly winched them over 800 feet up onto a gantry and suspended them over concrete, face down.
Then they snapped the visor open.
I am told that one potential astronaut, lulled into a false sense of security, gave an almost inaudible scream, whilst momentarily losing control of his bladder and (audibly!) his bowels, his heart rate went from 80 to 223 in a fraction of a second.:eek:

That's the difference.

Strangely(?!) none of the recruits fared much better, as one "expert" put it: "It seems like no amount of training can stop you getting scared..."

No sh'it...Sherlock...

Ade

Hancockhorse
19th January 2016, 17:46
:cool:
Dear All

Having just re-read the post I would hurridly add that in no way am I suggesting our practice aims for this goal.

The ending was also meant to be different but e-budo went mad and posted an unfinished draft.

What I was trying to say was that I don't believe that normal people can ever totally control fear in all circumstances, but that Shorinji Kempo practice gives you a way to control some effects of adrenalin and to deal with stressful situations appropriately, unlike Kuklinski.

Sorry for any upset caused.

Ade

PS Moderators please add this to the original post.

Not two. The way I think about thinking effects (and affects) my ongoing thinking (life as a process of observe, consider, decide, act . . . ) . . . "normal" and "control" are useful illusions . . . but . . . IMHO . . . they can always become DELUSIONS which can lead to pathology. I see no "upset" at all in your original post. Much to think about . . . well considered indeed. Keep sharing please.