What changes?

[David Dunn]

I've just read the interview with Kawashima Sensei on the WSKO site. This was interesting


As the Hombu's policy goes, there should be "changing parts of Shorinji Kempo" and "unchanging parts of Shorinji Kempo." The purpose of founding, philosophy, and techniques should never be modified. However, the way to transmit and the systems should be improved positively. This "improvement" is sometimes very difficult, though...

Just harking back to old discussions on developments and hokei.

:D

[Steve Williams]

So what changes?......


Obviously the techniques and the philosophy do not change, but the way that the teaching is imparted is always changing........

Anyone remember the "musical warmups" popularised by hombu in the mid 90's?
That one died.... but was "tried" by many other branches worldwide......

The warmups have become more "p.c" lately... due to sports-science interests....... we do not "roll our necks" now (or at least we shouldn't)... amongst other things.

The allowing of water/liquid to be taken on during lessons....... that would not have happened 10 years ago......

Any others........

[johan_frendin]

Gassho!

I find it a little bit sad that the Hombu's policy says that and techniques should never be modified. In this way Shorinjikempo will force students to crosstrain in other arts like Kickboxing, Judo or Brazilian Ju jitsu to become updated.

If I make a comparison the way Shorinjikempo train is the territory, and the techniques are the map. Through the Hombu policy Shorinjikempo kenshis will have a map that is 60 years old and unchangeable. Maybe Shorinjikempo kenshi will leave and start in modern martial arts that use more current and updated maps with all the topography, and details of the actual land itself.
With the Hombu policy Shorinjikempo will send people out in the territory with old and incomplete maps where the mountains are missing, the flat lands is blurred and the deserts and the ocean have the wrong colours.

Johan Frendin

[David Dunn]

Originally posted by Steve Williams
The allowing of water/liquid to be taken on during lessons....... that would not have happened 10 years ago......

Must confess, it still seems not quite right. Kenshi just wandering off for a drink mid-session.

[tony leith]

OK Johan, bottom line is if you (or anybody else) don't find that Shorinji Kempo is a complete enough fighting discipline perhaps you should go and do something else, rather than carrying on moaning about the inadequacies of Shorinji Kempo. I'm sorry if there's some asperity in my tone, but there it is. I've seen too much of this 'mix and match'/'pick'n'mix' approach to training in recent years, and it might be to people's advantage as fighters but it has only been to the detriment of Shorinji Kempo in my experience. Shorinji Kempo has an integrity as an art and as a training methodology.

Besides Hombu policy does NOT assert that Shorinji Kempo is unchanging. I have observed that some Shorinji Kempo techniques have evolved significantly over the 13 years I've been training. The point is that this is going on at the level of 'ri', and there aren't that many people in the world with that level of understanding (literally a lifetime's worth of experience). For the rest of us, we should seek them out and profit from what they have to teach us.

Actually it just occured to me that I should qualify my remarks by saying that I wasn't a nidan thirteen years ago, so I don't know what was being taught at that level back then. Nevertheless, it does seem to me that Mizuno Sensei's technique has changed in recent years, certainly in terms of the emphasis of his teaching. Dave Dunn has probably had more opportunity to observe this than I have - maybe he'd care to affirm/refute that this is the case?

Tony leith

[MikeCarew]

It is one thing to say that because you feel Shorinji Kempo has some weaknesses that therefore you should study outside of the art. From a fighting point of view we are all aware of areas that Shorinji Kempo is not as strong as it might be. Ground work is often mentioned for example.

There is another view point worth considering. What about the specialist knowledge and experience that exists within the broad family of Kempo. There are some Dojo's in Japan that spend much more time on weapons work, so I am informed. And what about the knowledge of Bando Sensei.

I feel that you might find it fulfulling and rewarding to look for these specialist skills within Shorinji Kempo and help make sure that we don't lose what we have. We all know that individual sensei's have specialist areas. Try to seek them out and learn things that are not taught within your own dojo for instance.

Mike Carew

[sean dixie]

Originally posted by tony leith
Nevertheless, it does seem to me that Mizuno Sensei's technique has changed in recent years, certainly in terms of the emphasis of his teaching. Dave Dunn has probably had more opportunity to observe this than I have - maybe he'd care to affirm/refute that this is the case?

Tony leith

I quite agree, the techniques have evolved immensly since I first started training. Back then in Poole Dojo the idea was always 'hardest is best', and as a consequence knackered wrists ensue. Mizuno Senseis system is much softer, subtler and a whole lot easier on the wrists these days. Kagite Shuho being the obvious case in point. On the whole I find the training to be closer to my experiences in Japan where you can concentrate on the technique and train for a lot longer (I think both in session duration and lifetime) Nothing grieves me more than being grabbed bloody hard for a technique that I'm struggling with and not being let to learn the technique because this is a 'real grab' :(

[Ade]

Originally posted by johan_frendin
...I find it a little bit sad that the Hombu's policy says that and techniques should never be modified. In this way Shorinjikempo will force students to crosstrain in other arts like Kickboxing, Judo or Brazilian Ju jitsu to become updated.

If I make a comparison the way Shorinjikempo train is the territory, and the techniques are the map. Through the Hombu policy Shorinjikempo kenshis will have a map that is 60 years old and unchangeable. Maybe Shorinjikempo kenshi will leave and start in modern martial arts that use more current and updated maps with all the topography, and details of the actual land itself.
With the Hombu policy Shorinjikempo will send people out in the territory with old and incomplete maps where the mountains are missing, the flat lands is blurred and the deserts and the ocean have the wrong colours. ..

Where to start?

I have just started a thread about the lack of standardization of techniques and the many and varied ways that different teachers emphasise different points within the same techniques.

My training partner and I are constantly trying different ways to do the same technique, even to the level of watching videos of Shorinji Kempo being practiced all over the world in an effort to see how they do it and whether it would work for us.

Whilst this can be confusing, for us and others around us, it forces on open mindedness upon us both which I had resisted previously, I believe that I am a better teacher as a result of my ability to say, "ok we'll try it that way."

And I got this from my exposure to Foreign, (i.e. non-domestic) teachings, by travelling and being receptive.

So, for me, the idea of being forced to cross train in order to remedy hombu's perceived inflexibility is laughable.
The old adage about ".. The man who chases two rabbits will catch neither..." never rung so true.

As to the adage of a map, here's another one;

"There is no map, your journey is your path, not mine, go and find out what you want for yourself."

Or as Bill Gates used to say:

"Where do you want to go today?"

Ade

PS (December 13, 1996 -- Microsoft Corporation announced today that it was dropping its "Where Do You Want To Go Today?" ad campaign, calling it "wildly successful," but perhaps a little "too successful."

Months ago, Microsoft's Corporate offices began receiving over 770,000 letters, postcards, faxes, and email that contained brief messages, sometimes only one word in length. Puzzled, a Microsoft office manager turned the documents over to a private investigator to find out what was going on. "The messages were basically place names, like 'Chicago', 'the corner of Fourth and Elm,' 'Egypt', 'Tahiti', 'Anywhere but Redmond,' 'Ulaan Baator', and so on," said the puzzled office manager.

The discovery came recently as the mystery spilled over to Microsoft's 800-number phone lines, with people calling in at any hour of the day or night with a brief statement and then hanging up. Operators, with the assistance of local law enforcement, managed to trace some of the calls and reach the mystery callers.

"I was just answering their own question,” said one caller, who asked to be identified, begged to be identified, even offered to pay to be identified. "Microsoft asked me where I wanted to go today, so I told them."

Apparently, so did hundreds of thousands of others as well.

"We meant it as a rhetorical device," said Bill Gates, Chairman of Microsoft. "But, evidently people took us literally. That's nothing new, really. They've been believing our claims and hype for years."

Asked what Microsoft will do now, after it drops its popular slogan, Gates replied, "Well, you can bet we won't be doing 'Who Do You Want To Be Today?' any time soon." )

[tony leith]

I think my thinking about the cross training thing in the end is that for me, Shorinji Kempo is effectively inexhaustible. I suppose it must obviously be finite as the sum of human knowledge is ultimately finite (or is it? - my impatience with this sort of stuff is why I lasted literally one lecture in Philosophy 101), but as Ade implied, you can go on learning about any one technique indefinitely. It is of course possible to take the view that "Right, I've got that, it works, next business'once you've achieved an understanding of the technique that work's on most of the people most of the time, but I think this is denying yourself the richness of what Shorinji Kempo has to offer.

The point is that there is always something new to learn - to the point that over time, that although I'm still trying to do kote nuke as prescribed by hokei form, my understanding of what that means has changed radically. Now I'm afraid I lack the Zen focus to be able to concentrate on one technique exclusively for thirty odd years, but handily there are 600+ of them.

I just recently saw the BBC's 'Way of the Warrior' documentary series, made about 20 years ago. There is room in Shorinji Kempo for improvisation on themes, and for people to extend the boundaries of Shorinji Kempo knowledge. Senseis like Arai, Mizuno, Aosaka, Yamasaki are working at that frontier, and passing on what they've learned more or less immediately to the rest of us. Getting the benefit of their instruction of course mnay require some effort. Tough.

I think the attitude of many Westerners to martial arts practice is characteristic of our consumer culture ("I want it ALL and I want it YESTERDAY! I can't have it? The toys are going out of the pram right now!). You might contend that this is fair enough, there's no reason why Westerners shouldn't take a Western mindset to martial arts. True up to a point, but I think we should be at least entertain the possibility that the culture which originated the martial arts might have other things to offer us besides a manual of figting techniques. This is not to say that I aspire to be Japanese or I wish to abandon my own cultural heritage - on the contrary. I am however interested in Shorinji Kempo as a discipline and a mode of learning, not just as a means of delivering an end product.


Tony Leith

[johan_frendin]

Gassho!


OK Johan, bottom line is if you (or anybody else) don't find that Shorinji Kempo is a complete enough fighting discipline perhaps you should go and do something else, rather than carrying on moaning about the inadequacies of Shorinji Kempo. I'm sorry if there's some asperity in my tone, but there it is. I've seen too much of this 'mix and match'/'pick'n'mix' approach to training in recent years, and it might be to people's advantage as fighters but it has only been to the detriment of Shorinji Kempo in my experience. Shorinji Kempo has integrity as an art and as a training methodology.
Tony. As soon as somebody criticize Shorinjikempo at this forum they are immediately told to leave Shorinjikempo and do something else. One of the most fundamental things in an organisation is that its member has the opportunity and possibility to criticize anything. If not we have an unhealthy and dangerous organisation. I will therefore continually criticize Shorinjikempo when I find it necessary.


I have observed that some Shorinji Kempo techniques have evolved significantly over the 13 years I've been training.
I have seen this during the years to. Misuno senseis formidable skills improved and got softer and smothers and maybe also more effective during the years. No doubt about that.
But how often do you see Misuno sensei or Hombu instructors teach defence against the thai boxing neck clinch or Judo newasa (Ground work)? Very seldom. Why? Because Shorinjikempo do not use these techniques regularly. And I do not se why Shorinjikempo can incorporate this technique into its “system”? The techniques are just a way to practice the philosophy of Shorinjikempo. Instead of being a museum of old techniques it could evolve and spread its philosophy even further into the world.


So, for me, the idea of being forced to cross train in order to remedy hombu's perceived inflexibility is laughable.The old adage about ". The man who chases two rabbits will catch neither..." never rung so true.
Ade. It’s ok that you laugh. No hard feelings from my side. But the truth is that for example Judo or Brazilian Ju jitsu is perfect cross training for a Shorinjikempo kenshi.
For an open-minded kenshi he will not be chasing two rabbits but just add another dimension to his martial arts training. The “rabbit story” can only arise in a mind of a person that belongs to an organisation that sees other organisations as opponents. If you are open-minded there is unending help everywhere to make you a better person or martial artist.

Johan Frendin

[Ade]

Originally posted by tony leith
...I just recently saw the BBC's 'Way of the Warrior' documentary series, made about 20 years ago...

Where!?

I NEED a copy, I've been after one for God know's how long, who's got it, send me a copy, PLEEZE!!!

The cross training issue has been done to death so I'm not going to bother really carrying on with that apart from two observations, one from Sensei Mizuno one from Sensei Hiate.

"...Shorinji Kempo is 100 times better than aerobics, if you do not recognise this then you should go and do aerobics, aerobics is not bad but it is not Shorinji Kempo..."

"...how you spend your time and effort in your life should be a balanced tripod, your family, your Shorinji Kempo and your work..."

A division of effort confuses and dilutes Shorinji Kempo form hindering the student's progress significantly.

Johan you must do as you desire, that's your choice, enjoy your training.

Ade

[cheunglo]

I think many of the points made so far, on both sides of the discussion, are quite sound but not mutually exclusive and here is a reason to explain why.

I will make an analogy between martial arts styles and languages. If Shorinji Kempo is equivalent to (say) English, the following observations can be made and applies equally for either system:
1. Both are complete systems which do not require external systems to assist it.
2. Both have infinite depth and can studied and enhanced over many lifetimes.
3. Both can be applied usefully in many different circumstances.
4. Both can be helpful and interesting to novices and experts.
5. Both, well, you can add your own points here...

However, English does not mean that other languages are not necessary nor that they are not complimentary. It is arguable that poetry is better in French and opera in Italian (and they deserve it for all I care). In addition, studing other languages help you to understand linguistics (how languages are made up). However, most importantly, if we include all languages (not just spoken) we have specialist languages that are much more useful in specific circumstances. Computing, music and mathematics are prime examples. I don't think it comes as a surprise to anybody that most leaders know jack about computing languages, yet computing is indispensable to the modern world.

To complete the analogy, whilst you can think of learning non-Shorinji Kempo techniques as dirty cross-training, it is equally valid to consider it as extra curricular activity (ECA) training. As Mike Carew pointed out, Shorinji Kempo has areas that it does not consider indepth, indeed, no art can be all things to everybody at all times. Just knowing how other techniques work is helpful within Shorinji Kempo, even if just as an awareness so that it be can be countered more effectively by official techniques.

Lastly, I don't think ECA training is about chasing two rabbits, it is more about having the flexibility of two different strategies to chase the same rabbit! Does anyone want to argue that flexibility is not important?

[Ewok]

If you feel your lacking something in your Shorinji Kempo talk to your teacher, they often know about such things ;)

[David Dunn]

There's some serious thread drift going on here. I think I'll reserve my criticisms of Shorinji Kempo's weaknesses until I've actually seen the entire system, which I seem to be in the region of half way towards.


Nevertheless, it does seem to me that Mizuno Sensei's technique has changed in recent years, certainly in terms of the emphasis of his teaching. Dave Dunn has probably had more opportunity to observe this than I have - maybe he'd care to affirm/refute that this is the case?

This is all I'll comment on. I often hear people say "Sensei's changed the technique." Contrary to this popular opinion, I have to say that I'm struck by the constancy of Sensei's form over the years. If I pick an example, say uwa uke geri, I would say that 99% of the time the instructions are the same. Start in zenkutsu dachi, open the back foot, make sorimi, ushiro yose ashi, jun geri keri kaeshi, kumo ashi sagari. If anything he's become more and more adamant that "hokei is rules. You must try to exactly do it."

What has changed and developed is Sensei's understanding of the internals of the techniques. For example in uwa uke geri, the instructions and outward form is the same as above, but the feeling is softer (except zensokutei in suigetsu of course), and he explains how to try to feel inside yourself, for example moving from seika tanden first, not kicking into the floor etc. The same is true for juho. In gyaku gote the form remains mae kagi ashi, kagite, sashikae irimi, yose ashi etc. However kagite is now with the three middle fingers relaxed, the elbow floating away from the body about a tennis ball width, begin the movement in your belly etc.

I guess the important point is that he constantly tries to improve his techniques. I don't think that 'change' is quite the right description. My conclusion of late has been that he is so readily able to assimilate and implement these kind of nuances precisely because he spent twenty years establishing the solid form that remains constant in his technique.

[tony leith]

OK, in answer to Johan's point, I have already said that if what you're primarily motivated by is self defence/'learning to fight', then it may well be that as eclectic an approach as possible is desireable. All I'm saying is that Shorinji Kempo is what it is, if you want it to be something else, to me you're missing the point. This is however just my point of view rather than a doctrinal imperative. My concern is that I have seen what is uniquely worthwhile about Shorinji Kempo diminished by people trying to turn it into a kickboxing class - to my mind kickboxing is perfectly capable of standing on it's own merits, but it ain't Shorinji Kempo.

I would agree with Dave's observation that Mizuno Sensei's instruction is not departing from hokei - in a sense, that level of understanding almost defines what hokei is,. at least for the rest of us who didn't train with Kaiso, can't read the Kyohan etc etc. That surely is the point of 'ri', at least as I understand it as somebody who still struggles with 'shu', never mind 'ha'.

Tony leith

[johan_frendin]

Gassho Tony!

I know that a very senior instructor in Europe once talked with Shike Yuuki So about a certain technique in curriculum that does not work on western people. She told him that it is impossible to exclude a technique from curriculum because the system that Kaiso invented is untouchable.
Personally I wonder why Shorinji Kempo must remain “fixed” as Kaiso left it when he died? I always thought Shorinjikempo could change an incorporate new techniques by the senior instructors at Hombu but sadly I was wrong.

Johan Frendin

[Ade]

Dear All

Gassho

I am forced to point out that you need to clarify a question here.

What is your goal:

To learn Shorinji Kempo or to become an effective fighter?

This may seem that I'm saying that Shorinji Kempo isn't a way of becoming an effective fighter, I'm not, but if your answer to the above is "to become an effective fighter" then you are, and clearly don't believe the teachings.

This then becomes an attempt to begin the "ri" phase.
Whether you're truly at that phase is a matter of some interest which I don't intend to dwell on.

But it's clear that if you aren't here to learn Shorinji Kempo.
You don't belive in it and consider that you've identified flaws, which you must address by learning other styles.

Should you now stay? confusing others, undermining your techer/teachings and finally face the prospect of never being able to teach Shorinji Kempo because you don't believe it to be effective?

In my opinion you either do it all, properly, or do something else, properly.

Happy training.

Ade

PS As a serving police officer I face violence as part of my daily work and I can state that Shorinji Kempo works very well against everyone, including an ex-professional boxer, an ex-British champion (aren't they all) kick boxer and a 4th dan judoka high on amphetamine sulphate.

[MikeCarew]

I just re-read Daviud's original message and I believe we have drifted here. The changes that were being discussed were in how Shorinji Kempo is transmitted. There were clear aeras of change and areas not to change.

The organisation has grown over the years and will continue to do so as different people become involved with it. As the organisation exends there will no doubt be a greater influence from non-Japanese sources.

To date WSKO and other parts of the larger organisation have infact implemented changes to what they see as the changing face of Shorinji Kempo. We are about to have a new universal emblem from what I read.

I asked if the new wording of the Dokun is to become standard in English Dojo's.

There is a new text book.

There are studies undertaken into the fundemantals of the techniques making use of computer simulation. There results of these are used to implrove the way techniques are being taught.

I have been aware of other changes over the years as well.

Gyaku Gote still hurts when done correctly. No change there

Mike Carew

[David Dunn]

Johan,
I'm intrigued. Which technique doesn't work on westerners (sic)? And then, precisely which physiological or anatomical difference between westerners and Japanese people is the root of the failure?

Does there exist distinct Japanese and European forms of Shorinji Kempo? Moreover the one version only works on the one set of people? Am I the only one that finds this a bizarre concept, not least given the vast range of physiques etc of both Europeans and Japanese people?

I'm afraid I take a rather simplistic view of Shorinji Kempo waza - they work. If I can't make them work on a particular person, then that's a failure of me, not of the technique. My simple assertion is backed up by the fact that I've seen Mori, Arai, Yamazaki, Sanada, Mizuno, Jee etc senseis performing them on the supposed 'doesn't work' cases.

To follow Ade's point about 'ri'. I've posted this link before, but it's the best exposition of shu-ha-ri that I have found:
http://gojuryu.net/shuhari.htm
In particular it has this to say on 'ri'. I think that for us, we can replace 'kata' with 'hokei' in the passage. The main point is that ri is arrived at through a lifetime of shu and ha.


Ri (discarding the kata)

Some practitioners of modern martial traditions dismiss kata and shu-ha-ri as being too confining or old fashioned. In truth, this position is flawed because they misinterpret the purpose of kata. Like so many armchair experts, they have not been properly trained beyond the shoden level in kata and are commenting on a subject about which they simply are unqualified and therefore unable to comprehend. Like most observers outside the experience of deep study, they see the kata as the art itself instead of a sophisticated teaching tool that is only a surface reflection of an arts core concepts. The kata, in their flawed interpretation "is" the art. This is like the flaw of assuming a dictionary to be a complete representation of language. Unfortunately, numerous older martial traditions in Japan unintentionally reinforce this misinterpretation by overemphasizing the kata. Often with these schools significant core elements and knowledge have been lost to antiquity so that all that remains is the omote or outer shell of the kata. With nothing left but the kata to embrace, these schools often reinterpret their mokuroku (technical syllabus), making the kata the primary driving force of the ryu. When this happens the ryu inevitably degenerates into a simplistic dance where the ura and applications of the kata become of secondary focus. These traditions are effectively dead. They are like skeletons attempting to represent a total person.

"Ri" What is it?

"Ri" is difficult to explain as it is not so much taught as it is arrived at. It is a state of execution that simply occurs after shu and ha have been internalized. It is the absorption of the kata to such an advanced level that the outer shell of the kata ceases to exist. Only the underlying truth of the kata remains. It is form without being conscious of form. It is intuitive expression of technique that is as efficient as the prearranged form but utterly spontaneous. Technique unbridled by the restriction of conscious thought processes result in an application of waza that is truly a moving meditation. For one who has achieved ri, observation becomes its own expression of reality. The mind is now free to operate on a distinctly higher level than previously possible. To the casual observer it appears that the exponent has become almost psychic, able to recognize an occurrence or threat before it actually exists. In truth the observer is just fooled by his own mind’s mental inertia. With ri, the lag time between observation and cognitive response is reduced to almost imperceptible levels. It is "ki". It is "mushin". It is "ju". It is all these things in combination. It is the manifestation of the highest level of martial ability. It is what we refer to in the Takamura ryuha as "wa".

[johan_frendin]

Gassho!

I know that Shorinjikempo is an effectice and fantastic martial art and philosophy. I know that Misuno sensei, Arai sensei, Aosaka , Yamazaki sensei, Sanada sensei are incredible teachers and can apply their techniques on anyone. But even though Shorinjikempo is great martial art everything can become better and develop further. Why not evolve and become better?

To David. Appo works better on Japanese people than on western people and western people is easier than african-american people. I was told that at Hombu 1989.

Johan Frendin

[David Dunn]

Originally posted by johan_frendin
To David. Appo works better on Japanese people than on western people and western people is easier than african-american people. I was told that at Hombu 1989.

Thanks Johan. That's possibly the only answer I would be happy with :) Although I'm still not sure that the generalisation is correct, I think it might be fair to say that appo techniques do not all work on every person. They work on me very well.

[Ewok]

In my view Shorinji Kempo does evolve and change. Your thinking of shorinji kempo as a list of names on paper, thats not what it is. Shorinji Kempo is how you do it, im sure you have improved and changed since you started.

[johan_frendin]

Gassho!

David. Appo works very, very well on me even though I am a rather big, slightly overweighted Nordic Viking. :D

I do not think we can come any further in this discussing.

Nice discussion anyway.


Johan Frendin

[shugyosha]

shorinji kempo is a traditional martial art
kickboxing is a sport created in japan mixing different martial arts.

every traditional martial arts is based on basic forms (hokei, kata)
repeated endlessly.
the aim of the practice is to form a group of peaple to be ready to protect, follow and feed the prosperity of a clan or family
those forms are created by a founder (kaiso) and transmited trought filiation in a family or clan, only traditionaly, only the successor of the art can modify these kata each generation, or if one does, one thus create a new ryu.
because those form are the essence of the traditional martial art, thus when modified, it modify the art too.

in time, all form change, but those change are always brough buy a successor or group of successor.

the fighting sport is different, it is base not so much on forms but on rules and approches of fighting. perfection of the forms are secondary, thus the aim of the practice is the form a group of peaple to be competent within the rule of fighting difined by the sport.

that's why in sport form can be change by the practioner (in the limit of the rules of fighting) whereas the rules of fighting cant be changes.

in traditional martial art a rule of fighting can be change by the prationer, but the form can not be change.


lastly, you have modern martial art such as jeet kune do, where the form and the rules of fighting can be change by the practioner, wich enivitably leads to an etherogene mix of art who although share the same name have a different science, forms and approch.

[tony leith]

I think there is a legitimate discussion about the application of Shorinji Kempo technique in self defence. I try to teach okuri gote according to strict hokei according to the best of my understanding. However it would be pointless to deny that it is difficult technique, and that on some people it is a very difficult technique. I tend to point out to students that in a self defence context, if you've succeeded in turning somebody's shoulder over but not in fully breaking their balance, you have at least made your situation better than it was, and you should immediately exploit the opportunity you've just created by using tembin to take down.

However, if this was your first recourse, you'd never learn to do okuri gote, or almost more important, have the benefit of that learning experience. There is more to our technique thatn simple reductive practicality - or almost all the juho you'd ever need would be tsuki nuki (on the nidan syllabus and not before I suspect for this very reason)

Incidentally I am yet to encounter anything on any Kempo syllabus that doen't work all too bloody well on me :D

Tony leith

[Ewok]

Just a quick side note, would you call Shorinji Kempo a modern art or a traditional art?

It doesnt exactly have the long history that other martial arts like Kendo and Karate etc can call opon.

A modern traditional art maybe? :D

[David Dunn]

Originally posted by tony leith
However, if this was your first recourse, you'd never learn to do okuri gote, or almost more important, have the benefit of that learning experience. There is more to our technique thatn simple reductive practicality - or almost all the juho you'd ever need would be tsuki nuki (on the nidan syllabus and not before I suspect for this very reason)

What he said. The gyo of okuri gote is a lifetime of trying to perfect it, not arriving at it.

Leon, Shorinji Kempo is plainly gendai (modern) budo. I don't think jita kyoraku, jiko kakuritsu, half for yourself, half for others etc have much precedence in ko (old) budo.

[Tripitaka of AA]

Originally posted by tony leith
There is more to our technique thatn simple reductive practicality - or almost all the juho you'd ever need would be tsuki nuki (on the nidan syllabus and not before I suspect for this very reason)


Would that be the same Tsuki Nuki that used to be on the Yonkyu syllabus alongside Yori Nuki, Kote Nuki... and.. was it Maki Nuki?

[David Dunn]

Aye.


but I think Tony might've meant uchi nuki.

[Tripitaka of AA]

And too late to change it... how embarrassing!;)

[David Dunn]

Tsuki nuki is also on the nidan syllabus though.

[tony leith]

Congratulations Dave for correctly identifying the mystery technique I meant to refer to. Ahem.

At least I got the syllabus right.

Tony Leith