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Ryu
30th October 2000, 22:52
Hi all,
Coming from a background that included a bit of collegiate wrestling, I have used throwing dummies in the past, and feel they are a great tool for overall throwing speed, strength, and technique (other than a live person of course). Recently I have been using different styles of grappling dummies to keep my training up since I don't spar as much as I used to, and I was wondering if anyone else here uses them to train nage waza, newaza, or both.
Anyone have any thoughts?

Thanks

Ryu

MarkF
31st October 2000, 07:22
Well, I never have, not once, ever. It would have been nice to have something to toss or hold on to besides my son's mother, but I took my little brother everywhere there wasn't a dojo. (kidding, but I did practice on him when we were both kids, as you, your sister, Bill)

Anyone?

Mark

Ryu
4th November 2000, 01:18
:eek:

No one uses grappling dummies at all??
Hmm. Oh well. They seemed to help my overall skill level when I tested myself during randori at a Machado BJJ school. Just because I could constantly practice throws, holds, takedowns, and transitions anywhere and anytime. Whether or not I had a partner or not. So I felt they helped a great deal. Obviously it doesn't take the place of a partner, however you can get some solid basics if you use them right. Well how about this, does anyone feel they are a good tool to use as well? Maybe it's more of a wrestling thing...but I've heard a lot of judoka use them.
I may be drowning here :D
At least you let me know I'm not completely alone, Mark! Thanks for the courtesy post haha! :)

Take care,
Ryu

MarkF
4th November 2000, 08:34
The subject heading should be sung (preferably in John's voice) to the old Beatles song of the same name in the sixties (Oh? You didn't know that Paul had been in another band before the present one?)

There are three reasons people are not replying to this topic post. 1) They don't
2) They do but don't want anyone to know they
have to blow their's up first
3) There just are not that many judoka, BJJers
who post here.

But the major reason some don't is most do not compete and thus consider this to be related, but not to training in general. Most of the former judoka (and I think these days almost everyone is a former judo player) have "transcended" judo to koryu, or other gendai considered more "street savvy." But there are some who come from koryu roots, and then do judo because they want to improve their koryu, or other fighting style, EG, Meik Skoss.

Well, this may not be good for the judo forum on E-budo, as most are into something else, but it still leaves it to those who can't wait to get on the mat to play randori, throw someone through the floor and then having that done to themselves, or really learning what is at the root of all Japanese martial arts which resides in judo.

Still, there are some, a name which comes to mind is KIT who does koryu, but is aware enough of himself to do a submission grappling sport/art, enjoys it, it also helps him in his job because, as a LEO, he finds himself all too often on the ground, but he also finds his koryu training fits the bill, as the techniques are there, when needed (sorry Kit, if I brought up your name in this).

So let's say what it is and get it over with. Most, even former judoka, do not approve, even though they knew (some) going in that competition and "sparring" were part of it, or soon learned of this fact and stayed anyway. It isn't judo they dislike, though, whether it is admitted or not, but the politics seen at the upper ends of the sport side of judo.

But the fact of the matter is, they most likely would never have had to deal with it (no medal winners from the Olympics has posted here, to my knowledge) and thus, have convinced themselves judo to be "sportified." But where is the problem, then? So they don't learn ko shiki no kata? Well, to be done in koryu fashion, would necessitate a purchase or project in coming up with the bamboo to make the armor, but instead, invest in katana, and there symbolic (this is not sporting enough?) partners, batto, shinai, bokken, etc.

Even though there are millions of practioners in some form or another, few want to talk about it, or even coming and spilling their guts with their utter disapproval. Karate may be the one full of politics, businessmen, McDojo, money, and phonies, but it isn't he fault of karate, as most see this as the one way to defend oneself, and therefore, want to learn to fight.

Times have changed, boys and girls, as Rod S. is not the only judoka out there making a pretty penny on the filling of the heads of their students, who in turn fill his pockets with money.

Rant over, but think about it. There is tons of stuff, possibly part of the reason for a lack of reports, is a lack of this knowledge and I say good. I'd rather say nice things about judo as well, but the point here is discussion. If it is bothering you, as judoka, and you are holding back, think how many others are keeping it bottled up, as well.

OK! Spill your guts. This is way, way off-topic, but I couldn't stop. Someone is channeling through me and using my fingers like a ouija board.:up:

Mark

efb8th
4th November 2000, 15:50
Mark! You've GOT to stop slammin' those coffffeeees!

Anyway, Hi, Bill.

Training without partners is a problem faced by all serious judoka. I couldn't afford a fancy grappling dummy, but here are a few things that helped me train when I was between classes.

1) Telephone pole: wrap an obi around it and shoot 200 uchikomis on each side. Object: get that sucker swaying like there was a high wind! (It's amazing how flexible a phone pole is if you set up a rhythm.)

2) Heavy bag work: get a big one (over 80 lbs.) to use for foot sweeps and leg sweeps (all harai and hane variations). Try to work up to 100 each, right & left, on each of your five favorite sweeps. (This is especially good for timing on okuriashi harai.)

Ah, for the good old days of 225 lbs. and a thirty inch waist!

Regards,

MarkF
5th November 2000, 07:19
Hi, Ed, Bill,
Midriffs come in all sizes, but they all look the same.:)

At the Hollywood YMCA (another branch at which my teacher had classes) the dojo was in the boxing workout area and a heavy bag, speed bag, and all other necessities were there as well. Lower the heavy bag (OK, some things you do out of necessity), and I practiced hane goshi for up to an hour before class. My legs would get so sore, that I would spend randori on my back escaping, or at least trying to, but when necessary, that throw, and its cousins were a very strong part of the ol' arsenal. Lifting the 225ers with thirty inch wastes (geez, if only) was a breeze.

That is also one of the few nagewaza which can be done alone. Jack Zeki loved that throw, as that was the one which impressed him when he demonstrated it himself. "Ahhh, sandan, judo." Well, it was a nice throw, but someone always brought a can of Black Flag Ego Spray just in case he was in one of those moods.

Mark

BTW: I wonder how many people are seeing that photo of Mas. Kimura and think it is you, Bill.:D

Ryu
5th November 2000, 08:58
Thanks for the posts, guys. :)
Well this is what I do for training. I used to be a regular member at Carlos Machado's BJJ academy. I was there for a year while working, and enjoyed such things as extreme mat burns, cauliflower ear beginnings, and a nearly broken elbow ;) But jokes aside, I did actually do fairly well when I was there, and most of it was actually my ability to get and keep hold downs, and stay on top while looking for submissions. I could get a few, but a lot of times I could not. The one thing I did find myself doing a lot was being able to ride people, and keep them on their backs with yokoshiho, kamishiho, and kesa gatame. So even though I might not get the submissions I wanted, I'd still have people on the defensive for the most part. I had a little judo training with a friend some years ago in my senior year in high school. But my formal training was in BJJ, and some collegiate wrestling. Never had been to an actual judo school :) But as I was interested more and more, I studied books, videos, etc and found that the newaza sections really fit in well with BJJ (after all, Mark you already hit the nail on the head when you said that BJJ is submission judo) Well I felt that it was osaekomiwaza that really gave me the edge to hang with a lot of the guys there. I also felt an urge to find a good judo school because I felt I might have a good background with it (even though I'm in no way a high ranking BJJer)
Well when my third year of college rolled around, I had to quit the Machado academy because it was simply too much money...(starving college student) I had used grappling dummies immensely while I trained at the academy, and have continued using them ever since. Right now I'm mostly doing solo training with the exception of throwing a few friends here and there. But most of my training is just weight lifting and doing what I can with those dummies. I do feel that I can get some good body mechanic training on some of the nagewaza. Ippon Seoi nage, tsurikomi goshi,and some others seem to really feel solid on them. I don't think it's much different from having a non-resisting uke at your assistance 24 hours a day :) But randori is definately a problem. So my basic thoughts are to possibly train in Japan since I want to teach English there for a bit. But until then, I can train pretty hard by myself it feels like. Even with some good imagination and intensity, you can give yourself a good workout on a grappling dummy, and even give yourself some skill to deal with "joe blow" on the street. But resistence is everything, so I'm hoping to not get too rusty :)
That's basically the way I'm training right now. Judo is a social sport/art so I need to get with it again.

Thanks again, guys.
oh and as far as my pic of Kimura :D
LOL well I've had people mistake it for me...and let me tell you, the temptation to not correct them is horrible! :D
But I gotta give credit where credit is due :)

But if it means anything I'm about the same height and weight as Kimura was :karatekid 5'8, and 180 pounds. But my neck isn't quite that big yet! Soon, I hope. Soon.

:)
Take care, guys

Ryu

MarkF
5th November 2000, 09:53
Hey, Bill,
Did Kimura once have a neck?:D

Yes, well, that is true to a degree with a non-resisting uke, but you still must enter, off-balance him, get deeper and lower, and step into the throw (step backwards, as one of the five throwing directions in the gokyo no waza is "throwing them where you ain't.") That is stepping backwards, and a good thing for wrestling, karate, etc. DR aiki jj people do it, although a more sensitive subject with them.

It isn't much different on the ground, as well. Without resistence, there is no way to gauge where your center is or should be.

But I understand the impatience of not having time or money, believe me I do. And there is nothing wrong with home training, as I still do it, well, sometimes when no one is looking, and then I must have a good reason. To improve your uchikomi, that also can be done at home (entering nage with the wall stopping you), but yes, especially for transition practice, a dummy would be very good considering what one has to work with. Practicing the feel of joint manipuation can also be done, and some of both nage and katami can be done in front of a mirror. Kano even recommended it, so you are in good company.

Regards,

Mark



Mark

Sheridan
6th November 2000, 19:05
Sorry, posted accidently, trying to delete.....

[Edited by Sheridan on 11-06-2000 at 01:08 PM]