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Nathan Scott
25th January 2001, 02:05
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Brently Keen
25th January 2001, 05:50
I beleive Saito sensei refers to atemi as vital point striking. He covers atemi in quite a bit of detail and it seems to me to be an essential component of Iwama style aikido. Saito sensei's take on atemi comes straight from the founder, and is probably the closest thing to "traditional" aikido. Yoshinkan aikido as described by the late Shioda sensei also seems to hold a similar view toward atemi.

Some shihans incorporate a lot of atemi in their aikido, but they're bringing in their striking techniques from karate, boxing, and other arts. Some have integrated these skills well with (their) aikido philosophy, but others have turned out to be, IMO more like hybrid arts with conflicting principles.

I think you're correct in that most Japanese jujutsu systems included atemi and that those strikes were specifically aimed at various tsubo points. I also agree that this is an area that is not taught very often in most aikido dojos, if at all. Vital point striking is common knowledge, however in many jujutsu systems (especially in the older styles).

I don't know if there was a conspiracy among aikido instructors to not teach foreigners just so that Japanese practitioners could keep an edge. That may have been the case with certain individuals, but it was probably more likely the natural result of a gradual watering down of the original art. Because succeeding generations chose to emphasize the "non violent" philosophical aspects of the art over it's martial roots, or even practical self-defense applications.

Brently Keen

Neil Hawkins
25th January 2001, 10:43
There was discussion on the jujutsu side of Jintai Kyusho on another list recently.

There are many references to atemi as vital point striking in styles of Jujutsu, but there are also some techniques called "Tengu", translated as "Goblin's Grip", which referred to holding and squeezing, rather than striking.

The school that listed these techniques was Yabe Ryu, but I have seen these shinkei-waza elsewhere, including in Yoseikan Aikido.

Is it common in Aiki styles to utilise gripping or direct pressure to vital points as well as strikes?

Regards

Neil

Daniel Pokorny
25th January 2001, 14:28
Hooker sensei at Shindai Aikikai has ALWAYS taught atemi, the "where", "how" and "why" aspects are always taught. He has at times devoted entire classes on vital point striking or vital pressure points. It's always great to be uke on these nights...whew! However, one must also consider his background in the various other arts (some very good striking arts).

Jones sensei here is also one that believes in utilizing the vital areas, either atemi or applying pressure. He also has a background in various other arts.

While I believe both these gentlemen incorporate a lot of the striking/pressure skills weaned from other arts, I've also seen their sensei, (Saotome), teach a lot of atemi as well and I'm pretty sure I know where HIS came from......

I do have to agree in that I don't see as much atemi skill or knowledge from a lot of visitors we get. This becomes obvious when, while trying to be kind, you make a light strike to a vital point and then get no response from uke at all. When this happens I just keep increasing the power a little each time and eventually they start reacting in a more realistic manner.......(sometimes they make funny little sounds too!)

On the other side of the coin here, I've noticed that people that also study sword arts such as Iaijutsu or kenjutsu seem to be much more "aware" of atemi and vital areas. They seem to react in a much more realistic and natural manner when even lightly struck in a vital point. I attribute this to the high level of awareness that seems to surface when practicing sword arts.

Although, even a higher level of awareness doesn't seem help me much when working kenjutsu with Hooker sensei. There goes my thumb, there goes my hand, there goes my knee....lost an arm once....etc... hate when that happens!

Regards,

Dan P. - Mongo

Walker
25th January 2001, 18:23
Quoted from a USAF Eastern Division Dojo Handbook:

“Atemi - Strikes
A feint or a movement by nage which makes uke react with a retreat or a defensive motion. Atemi do not usually make contact with uke in Aikido. Atemi can help nage to create and take advantage of an opening in uke’s attack.”

I think the concept of actually striking is lost in many aikido dojos let alone where, how, and why to strike. Atemi has become a hand waving in uke’s face.

So I guess the famous quote becomes, “Waving a hand in your opponents face is 90% of Aikido.” :nono:

Devon Smith
25th January 2001, 18:25
Hi Neil,

Hakkoryu jujutsu's founder Ryuho Okuyama utilized his knowledge of the body's meridian system when he developed his techniques. A grip is utilized in Sandan and Yondan wazas thet may be similar to what you describe. The focus on the grip is in the little finger, while the ridge of the pointed forefinger is used to press on lines such as the heart and large intestine lines along the forearm. Okuden teaches similar applications to other lines as well. When performed properly, a third party observer will see a reaction to pain in the agressor, but it isn't so obvious where the pain is coming from since the defender's grip "looks" fairly normal. In addition, strikes are taught through wazas 1-4, all to various points along the lines.

It's probably not fair to say such applications are "common" amongst various styles, but at least it shows up here & there.

Devon

Nathan Scott
25th January 2001, 20:25
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Earl Hartman
25th January 2001, 20:44
I don't know anything about aikido/aikijutsu, but in Nagao Ryu Taijutsu, atemi to kyusho are a vital part of the curriculum.

Some of these kyusho are very obvious (eyes, groin), others are the vital point utilized in shiatsu massage and acupuncture, etc.

In Nagao Ryu, many throws and takedowns are always begun with a kyusho attack. This can be as simple as a finger to the eyes (Three Stooges Jutsu) or the heel of the hand to the family jewels (Bar Room Brawling 101). Others are much more subtle and require a real knowledge of anatomy and a LOT of practice to utilize properly. These can be attacked with strikes, pressure, or gripping.

My teacher was a very small man who stood maybe a little over five feet. However, he had a grip like a vice, and if he could get his hands on you, fuhgeddabaoutit. All that stuff about lightning bolts of pain and electric shocks? Well, it's real.

Walker
26th January 2001, 00:46
Another good reference for atemi would be The Complete Kano Jiu-Jitsu (although it is neither) by Hancock and Higashi. Although points are listed and charted it is pretty sketchy regarding the when and why. I think I may have seen these pages reproduced online, but I don’t remember where. Interestingly it is contemporaneous with Harrison cited above and this section and a section on Kuatsu were dropped from a subsequent edition. A quote, “It is a curious fact, which will be noted by the reader, that many of the points of the body touched in the kuatsu manipulations are also points that are touched in attack for the purpose of causing death or insensibility.” (p. 507)

Another one appears in Combat Jiu Jitsu for Offence and Defense by S. R. Linck 1943. Purported to be “Ten Shin Ryu” jiu jitsu studied under Risher Thornberry it includes reproductions of Japanese anatomy charts and a kobuton like weapon system called a “link-stick.” I think the audience was police officers.

There is also a discussion of resuscitation in Jiu Jitsu Complete by Kiyose Nakae 1958, but with no reference to kuatsu or the use of any special points or locations although roughly the same spots are stimulated in the manipulations.

BTW - what do y’all think of Tegner’s Nerve Center and Pressure Point book?

And Nathan - I’m only where I am today as a result of stealing the best ideas I could find so be my guest...


[Edited by Walker on 01-25-2001 at 06:58 PM]

Richard Elias
26th January 2001, 00:54
Just some atemi trivia from what I've experienced.

I used to study "Iwama" Aikido of Saito and as mentioned, there was a fair amount of atemi, including strikes to pressure points.(one even on the top of the foot) We didn't always "hold back" the strikes, just enough not to cause damage. Those were usually the strikes to the face/head.

In Yanagi ryu we have an extensive striking repertoire, including 22 different types of strikes, plus some other speciality ones, each with various applications. 8 kicking techniques, none of which are to the head unless the opponent has been bent over or brought down. And, two long striking kata that also include throws. The atemi are often used to accompany a throw or control as a "softening" technique or to distract, but are also techniques in and of themselves and, depending on the manner in which they are applied, can be used to down the opponent. There are numerous strikes and grips to pressure points, even one very unusual one(at least I had never seen it before) that is behind the trachea. That strike incidently is not easy, it must be done with the hand in a particular position and angle to properly move the trachea aside and be effective.

Just thought I'd share.

Nathan Scott
26th January 2001, 01:55
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Paul Wollos
26th January 2001, 06:59
Hello all,

Daito Ryu obviously has many techniques that emphasize kyusho. As an example we can use Kondo Katsuyuki Sensei's techniques (they are possible to view through his videotapes and book): how's Ippon-dori applied - not only the initial atemi, but also the way of grabbing opponent's elbow - it's a specific grip. Gyaku-ude-dori same, plus additional way of grabbing the wrist and fingers, Dakijime also involved very painful strike to forearm and grip.
Ikkajo in mainline Daito Ryu teaches a specific principles of pinning, and using this principle in other techniques (throwing). Nikajo principle are wrist locks, Sankajo - twists, Yonkajo - use of another specific grip, which not only can be applied to bone structure kyusho, but also is used to attack other areas, ir: the neck / throat.

BTW, Sagawa-ha Daito Ryu Aikibujutsu has a very large curriculum, divided into separate arts, one of them being AIKI-KEMPO (what's more interesting, not taught to beginners).

Knowledge of atemi/tsubo/kyusho is essential in study of Daito Ryu, and other Koryu, I believe.

Do these concepts exist in modern arts? IMO, some did survive, but many are lost.
It's truly different when you perform elbow lock (let's say ikkyo/ikkajo), and when you have to do it with concentration on all garbbing aspects, how to apply pressure, etc. It turns the same "easy / simple" technique, into a complicated and difficult one. Many simple didn't have patience to learn/teach such complex ways perhaps.

Paul Wollos

Daniel Pokorny
26th January 2001, 14:58
Originally posted by Nathan Scott
There are several styles of Aikido that do teach atemi, but since the atemi is rarely applied, but rather "shown", students often never get a real grasp of atemi - though they will recognize where and when atemi is possible and desirable.

[Edited by Nathan Scott on 01-25-2001 at 02:38 PM]

Nathan,

You're making some VERY broad assumptions here and I believe you do not fully understand what your eyes see. Perhaps we should consider that it's the instructors that fail to emphasize atemi and not the particular "style". Aikido has ALWAYS included atemi as a vital part of technique, but it's up to the instructors to ensure it's actually practiced correctly.

I train a lot with some really talented people and the atemi in their technique sometimes APPEARS as though they are "waving their hand in my face" when actually the strike is assumed so I don't have to go home each night in pain. To someone on the "sidelines" or to those that have not actually been on the recieving end of the atemi before, it looks like nage doesn't understand atemi at all, but in fact, if they actually made contact each time, uke would only be good for one or two attacks before requiring some serious recovery time. I don't need to actually strike you under your nose each time to get you to understand that your eyes will water and your face will go numb. I don't have to strike you under your ear constantly to get you to understand you'll lose your balance and your knees will buckle. Once or twice is enough. Once we learn where these vital areas are and the affects they cause, then striking with power and speed is practiced on heavy / speed bags where they don't injure your training partners.......

Regards,
Dan P. - Mongo

MarkF
26th January 2001, 21:44
I don't think Nathan was implying anything, but what the general martial public thinks atemi is, and was only stating the obvious. It depends on your interpretation, or probably, the interpretation by your teacher. Since when, for example, is a nagewaza not atemi?

To me, it is whatever leads to kuzushi. It may be a blow such as a strike to the front of the shoulder joint to the brachial nerve. Generally, if I am going to throw in that direction, it is best the attacker all ready be half way there. It may just be the block which allows you to off-balance the attacker, or if in close enough, all parts of the nagewaza become atemi.

Someone copied me quite a few pages from Kano Jiu Jitsu and the implication is there. If a blow revives, is it atemi? No, but if a blow is applied to the same area with the opposite intent, then it would be.

Interesting section on kuatsu, BTW (thanks, Ed).

Mark

PS: Specializing in kyusho would be a CMD specializing in acupuncture. It works most of the time, and there is no harm done if not, but the probability that it is effective, is no less than any MA done for practical reasons. It only gives a sleight edge, if that, but if one can learn every point of every meridian in the body, it would be something to behold. How many really continue a martial art for the practicality?

MarkF
26th January 2001, 21:53
I forgot. I was going to answer Neil H.'s question. I've seen some picures somewhere on the net of the gripping you speak of in DR aiki jujutsu. If I could remember, or have marked the site in the first place, I wouldn't be telling you this, you'd be there all ready.

In fact, the picture I seem to remember, is a grip with the fingers to the fleshy area of the forearm, with the thumb ( assumed) on the other side.

Try http://daito-ryu.org . I'm fairly certain it was Kondo sensei.

Don't tear me apart for this, you guys. I was only trying to help.:kiss:

Mark

Earl Hartman
26th January 2001, 23:12
Mark:

Here's the link to the specific image you're talking about. It's Takeda Tokimune S., not Kondo S.

http://www.daito-ryu.org/Images/gallery.html

Anyway, take a look at the other picture of him in the formal pose in kimono and take a look at his hands. VERY powerful. Reminds me of my Nagao Ryu Taijutsu teacher. Like I said, a grip like a vice.

As I said, I don't know anything about Daito Ryu, and this is all speculation, but in the picture to which you refer, I'd be willing to bet that he's got his hands on a kyusho and is ready to take the guy down with it, or immobilize him instantaneously to set up a throw.

If so, and I stress the if so, since this is just a guess, this is very similar to Nagao Ryu; the initial atemi attack was to unbalance. For instance, there is a technique in Nagao Ryu where, when the attacker extends his hand to grasp the front of the kimono, the defender slips to the side and attacks a specific kyusho (where we shall not say). Speaking from experience, when the kyusho is successfully attacked, the pain is so intense that you freeze up, the shoulder comes up as a reflex to escape the pain, and before you know it, you are up on your toes. From there, it is a short trip facefirst into the mat.

Neil Hawkins
27th January 2001, 22:25
Thanks,

Here's a quote from "A General Course in Jiu Jitsu" by Col. Risher W. Thornberry, 1933:

"Jiu-jitsu has a weapon in the form of Ate-mi, or (Vital touches), which may be administered with the thumb, the clenched hand, the elbows, the toes, the edge of the hand, or even with the head. The effects of these touches range from a temporary paralysis of the arm to complete suspension of vital process and death."

In Jujutsu I have been taught strikes (including kicks) aimed at vital points as well as grabs aimed at pressure points in the wrist, shoulder, head/neck and chest area that are extremely painful. Usually we grip so that either the middle finger or thumb apply the pressure, although sometimes the edges of the hand or the side of a finger are used.

I practiced with a Yoshinkan Aikido Sandan for a while who had trained in Japan and his atemi were very precise, not only that but he could hit extremely hard whe he wanted to! :)

Regards

Neil

roninsamurai
28th January 2001, 03:48
I think there is a simple reason why atemi waza is not stressed or instructed in the U.S. within many aikido circles. Because of our "Fast food" society, many people that take up a martial art are only half-heartedly interested in true "budo". Aikido , as it has been taught here, gives a student the ability to practice an art that offers a peaceful, injury free arena. Modern aikido may have lost some of its original effectiveness by offering instruction without the liability of potential injury......you cant accidentally break a nose with atemi if you dont use it.....Dojos boost enrollment by not "scaring off students".. also why use atemi when my Kaiten-nage is effective without it! it is important that nage and uke work togather, BUT ..... if uke knows the technique being applied and is already willingly going to ukemi out of it.....is the technique really effective???? not very. If uke would put a little "street real" resistance into the equation, then nage would see the need for atemi to disrupt/startle/ unbalance or cause pain to uke... all classical jujutsu/ aikijutsu use atemi in great detail.......so would aikido if we would take aikido out of its watered down dance floor methodology, and return to O'sensei's doctrine



thank you .........Duke

MarkF
29th January 2001, 11:49
Thank you Earl,
Funny thing, but I had originally written Takeda T., but thought also that it was Kondo K.'s website, but thank you.

I've had a similar grip applied and my hand curled up with my fingers facing my shoulder. I had a cramp from that for several hours.

It was done more with the finger tips, but it was the same area of the arm. I suppose it registered and why I remembered the picture.

I'm sorry I didn't follow up myself.

I also read the same description of kuatsu/atemi/kyusho in Kano jiu jitsu. There are pictures of Kano doing similar kata, one I have he is separating the fingers.

oouch!

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply the pictures came from Kano Jiu jitsu, just pictures I've found.

MarkF
29th January 2001, 11:57
http://www.daito-ryu.org/Images/tota14.jpg

This was the picture I was referring. It resembles that grip more closely than I had first realized.

Mark

ultrajohan
31st January 2001, 11:21
Hi all.

Paul Wollos mentioned AIKI-KEMPO. I have never heard about this before. Can someone please share their knowledge what this means. All bits of information are welcome.
Thanks.

/Johan Svensson
Shorinji-kempo, Sweden

MarkF
1st February 2001, 08:28
Welcome, Roninsamurai,:)
The rules here are few, but one is siging posts with your real name. Use the sig box for it. People like to know with whom they are speaking.:wave:

As to aiki-kenpo, I don't know what it really means, but perhaps it is simply more budo arts contain aiki in princple, but not necessarily as in aikido or daito ryu. I've always thought it was present in judo, but just how to control and separate the waza hasn't been achieved, but when you feel it, you know it.

Paul Wollos
2nd February 2001, 06:03
>>Paul Wollos mentioned AIKI-KEMPO. I have never heard about this before. Can someone please share their knowledge what this means. All bits of information are welcome.
Thanks.
/Johan Svensson<<

Hello,

As most of things connected with Sagawa Dojo, their curriculum is ... secret (again).
From what I know, Aiki-Kempo in Sagawa-ha Daito Ryu Aikibujutsu are group of "how to enter with atemi" techniques, ie: against tsuki - using nagashi-uke and hiji-ate to face, or entry to ippon-dori: block up, and strike the armpit area.
Aikikempo involves knowledge of pressure points and how to strike them (jujutsu part of Sagawa Dojo concentrates on controlling pressure points with fingers pressure/ grips).

Again, I also would love to know more, what exactly Aikikempo is. Only the information above were available.
It's not really separate art, but rather a group of techniques.
Sagawa-ha Daitoryu Aikibujutsu divides it's techniques into:
Aiki-Taijutsu (Jujutsu, Aikijujutsu, Aikijutsu, Aikikempo), Aiki-Bukijutsu (Aiki-Bojutsu, Aiki-Jojutsu, Aiki-Kenjutsu, etc.).
I think it could be interesting for the topic, however very little is known about Sagawa Dojo (in English).

sincerely

Paul Wollos

ultrajohan
5th February 2001, 07:35
"Aikikempo involves knowledge of pressure points and how to strike them" ... "It's not really separate art, but rather a group of techniques."

Hey, sounds like the standard repertoire of most striking arts to me :-)


/Johan Svensson

ppko
29th July 2004, 17:43
how many of you actually use pressure points for your techniques and point out different points touch rub or hit, I do.

PPKO:laugh: :mad: :cry:

John Connolly
29th July 2004, 19:28
I usually bring flowers and candy first, light some candles, and put on some Barry White in the background. And THEN point out different points to touch, rub, and hit.

kenkyusha
29th July 2004, 21:45
If you want the real deal on how to work into sweet lovin' check out Smoove B on the onion (http://www.theonion.com).

Be well,
Jigme

Nathan Scott
3rd August 2004, 01:39
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