Naiive and Dumb question #4334: Do I need to grow straight wrists?

[Tripitaka of AA]

OK, so I don't have a Samurai walk! I don't move like the silvery Traffic Cop in "Terminator 2"!

... and when I hold my hand in a fist it didn't always form a straight line along the back of the knuckles and forearm... but it does now.

I seem to recall being told that at the moment of impact, the force should be directed through knuckles, wrist and forearm in such a way as to avoid recieving injury. If the back of the hand is in line with the forearm, then the bones are aligned to support each other in the most effective way. This is how the Boxer's hands are taped, this is how Karate and Kung Fu students are taught.

So my question is this: When in Kamae, should my Ken be "naturally" in line all the time, or should my relaxed yet alert attitude mean that my fist can fall to the more "natural" kinked position (as if holding something)? Should I be training this to be my new "most comfortable" arm position? Do I need to keep it straight to assist my super-fast punch from being detected in advance, or should it be opened, ready to grab something or someone?

[Ewok]

When in kamae you should be ralaxed, hot all stiff and tensed up. So the wrist can have its natural kink in it.

[tony leith]

I agree with Leon. Probably the cue for one my elders/betters to slap hand to forehead in a 'what is he thinking?' sort of way. I'd go further: while it is absolutely essential that the forearm and wrist muscles are tensed at the point of contact (or deeply unpleasant things are apt to happen to your wrist), it's extremely counterproductive if they're tensed prior to or during the act of punching. That being said, for normal zuki waza you don't want your hand flopping about a la rag doll either. I still think the whip or steel ball on chain images are most useful in visualising how energy is directed/transferred in an SK punch.

I think this is important - there is definitely a tendency for kyu kenshi to not just wrap their hands as prescribed into sei ken but to bunch the fingers really tightly as a preparation for punching. This slows punching speed unacceptably in my view. This is one the few form problems I don't have, as I have a deformity of the fingers which makes it quite difficult to make a very tense/tight fist. It doesn't however seem to impair my ability to transfer a reasonable amount of energy in a punch, hence my conclusion that a tense fist ab initio is redundant.

My relatively truncated fingers also seem to slot nicely into nerve points in the hands/wrists, and my grip is essentially bone operated by tendons rather than the kind of wrap around effect you get with normally proportioned fingers (I'm missing the top knuckles on most of my fingers) Departs scene with evil chuckle..

Tony leith

[Tripitaka of AA]

Originally posted by tony leith
(I'm missing the top knuckles on most of my fingers) Departs scene with evil chuckle..

Tony leith

Truth? Sounds weird :eek: perhaps too many knuckle press-ups?

This is where a photograph thread would be helpful. Just to prevent me building the wrong mental image of my fellow writers. From what I've read, Tony Leith is a vertically challenged, over-educated, de-knuckled fighting Monk from Glasgow. Whilst I am an overweight, balding, ex-skinny and curly-haired couch-potato with virtually no visible joints at all.

[David Dunn]

Originally posted by Tripitaka of AA
From what I've read, Tony Leith is a vertically challenged, over-educated, de-knuckled fighting Monk from Glasgow.

Short-arse. Tick.
Swallowed Sam Johnson's magnum opus. Tick.
Monk?

Nearly there David :D

I'm not sure I agree with Leon though:


hot all stiff and tensed up

Sounds like a teenager on a summer evening. Oh hang on...

[Ewok]

I gof a cold, i thunk its gibing my typing a funny accent *cough* :p

[tony leith]

What I alluded to in my previous post is actually a congenital birth defect - it's nothing particularly dramatic, and nothing that amounts to a serious functional impairment (viz. I've got to 2nd dan in a martial art that requires some dexterity, and done it without having been unable to do any technique thus far). Hence the missing top knuckles. Trust me Tripitaka, for all sorts of reasons you don't want photos...

Actually, I had to stop doing press ups on my knuckles when a doctor pointed out to me that I was more dependent on the mobility of the remaining joints in my fingers, and doing something likely to cause osteoarthritis in said joints probably wasn't smart. You can achieve similar results in terms if wrist strengthening by either using a pair of dumbells or an actual specialisied piece of kit you can get in sports shops - let's you do press ups with straight wrists without wrecking your knuckles joints.

I was about to get indignant with Mr. Dunn, then realised he's quite right.

Tony Leith

[tony leith]

I've just seen that I've committed the faux pas of having a redundant apostrophe in my most recent post. I'm off to commit seppuku..

Tony Leith

[Tripitaka of AA]

{crowd chants}
Oh No You Haven't!



Or did you get back in time to edit it?

[MikeCarew]

No, it is there and redundant. You may carry on with your seppuku.

Miek Carew

[Tripitaka of AA]

I was sure it was gone... then a Shadow Warrior whispered in my ear "it's behind you!", like a Panto villain.

So Seppuku is on for tonight then...

[tony leith]

At least I can spell my own name, Mr Carew ;)

Tony Leith

[MikeCarew]

I don't make claims to be able to. I certainly don't volunteer my next bardo if I do.

I believe that very rigid use of rules in written communication does nothing to assist with the primary purpose of communciation. If you don't respond I will assume that you have carried out your promise.

Mike Carew

[tony leith]

I don't make claims to be able to. I certainly don't volunteer my next bardo if I do.

I believe that very rigid use of rules in written communication does nothing to assist with the primary purpose of communciation. If you don't respond I will assume that you have carried out your promise.

Oooh, get her! I consider myself suitably chastised if not chastened. This sort of reasoning is why I ended up learning more about English grammar from high school Latin than I did from my English classes, and why generally non native speakers are able to put us to shame in terms of grammar and syntax.

Tony Leith

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by MikeCarew
I don't make claims to be able to. I certainly don't volunteer my next bardo if I do.

I believe that very rigid use of rules in written communication does nothing to assist with the primary purpose of communciation. If you don't respond I will assume that you have carried out your promise.

Mike Carew
Presumably, then you have never read Eats, Shoot, and Leaves? (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1861976127/qid=1091629333/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl/202-4578740-5407025) A crash-course in why grammar is essential.
Just consider the following two statements:
"Tony said, 'Mike Carew is an idiot'."
"'Tony', said Mike Carew, 'is an idiot'."
Now, do you think there's a difference? Because if so, you've just conceded your argument. Communication isn't possible without grammar. As any grammar-school twit can tell you... :rolleyes:

[MikeCarew]

Communication isn't possible without grammar. As any grammar-school twit can tell you

I don't find it worth while attempting to communicate with the grammar gestopo and I don't know any grammar school twits. Keep your gi clean.

singing off

Mike Carew

[tb055]

Oh please, not another grammar war. What was this thread about anyway?

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by MikeCarew
I don't find it worth while attempting to communicate with the grammar gestopo and I don't know any grammar school twits. Keep your gi clean.
Keep my GI clean? Presumably he showers every morning.
BTW, I wash my dogi after every use. All three of them. :rolleyes:
BTW, what's the "gestopo"? A new word for insect gestation?

[sean dixie]

Just consider the following two statements:
"Tony said, 'Mike Carew is an idiot'."
"'Tony', said Mike Carew, 'is an idiot'."
Now, do you think there's a difference?

Sorry to be difficult chaps, I know there is a difference but have no idea what it is! Maybe I should put down the Terry Pratchet books.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by tb055
Oh please, not another grammar war. What was this thread about anyway?
Grammar, Ross. What else is there?

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by sean dixie
Sorry to be difficult chaps, I know there is a difference but have no idea what it is! Maybe I should put down the Terry Pratchet books.
Oh, god, Sean!
In the first one, Tony called Mike an idiot. In the second one, Mike called Tony an idiot, by parsing the sentence differently. Same word order, different emphasis on the words, which is indicated by the punctuation. OK?
Kesshu.

[sean dixie]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
Oh, god, Sean!
In the first one, Tony called Mike an idiot. In the second one, Mike called Tony an idiot, by parsing the sentence differently. Same word order, different emphasis on the words, which is indicated by the punctuation. OK?

Ok...ish, still don't really get it, what does 'parsing' mean? And does it all really matter?

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by sean dixie
Ok...ish, still don't really get it, what does 'parsing' mean? And does it all really matter?
Yes, of course it matters, if you want to communicate.
FYI, "parsing" means the way you break up a sentence. See the earlier example for details.
Kesshu.

[sean dixie]

I'm communicating here right now, everyone understands me so whats the problem?

[Matt Molloy]

Originally posted by sean dixie
Just consider the following two statements:
"Tony said, 'Mike Carew is an idiot'."
"'Tony', said Mike Carew, 'is an idiot'."
Now, do you think there's a difference?

Sorry to be difficult chaps, I know there is a difference but have no idea what it is! Maybe I should put down the Terry Pratchet books.

That would be Pratchett with a double t and his books should have more than educated you enough to spot the difference.

Oh no. (Looks in the mirror. :eek: )

Could it be that the package from Japan with the "Drink me." label wasn't just a simple spell check potion?

Can one be turned into a Grammar Nazi?

Surely not...............Erk.

Cheers,

Matt.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by sean dixie
I'm communicating here right now, everyone understands me so whats the problem?
Are you sure?
Right now, you're writing easy sentences. Try writing something more complex, and see whether your meaning is transmitted faithfully.
Besides, good grammar is the same as good manners. If you wouldn't accept someone blowing their nose on your dining table cloth, why would you accept the grammatical equivalent?

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Matt Molloy
Can one be turned into a Grammar Nazi?
No; one becomes a Grammar Nazi through punctilious attention to detail.
(BTW, I prefer the term "orthography commando".) :D

[sean dixie]

And of course your the master of manners eh?

[Matt Molloy]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
No; one becomes a Grammar Nazi through punctilious attention to detail.
(BTW, I prefer the term "orthography commando".) :D

Phew.

Thank random fluctuations in the space time continuum for that.

Cheers,

Matt.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by sean dixie
And of course your the master of manners eh?
Excuse me? Could someone please translate this into English?
(Sean, "you're" and "your" are totally different. As for manners, I have been nothing but unfailingly polite. What you really mean, of course, is that your ego is offended by being taught as an adult correct grammar, which should be second nature to you. But I am not the correct target for your ire. By all means, vicariously blame your schoolteachers [most of whom are probably now dead or retired], but most of all, do something to correct your grammar. You are a Shorinji Kenshi and, presuming you're at least average, you'll be opening your own branch soon. To wit, Kenshi are educators, and as such, you must know more than your students. Not just technically, but academically as well. Kaiso said so. I don't mean to sound pissy, but Kenshi should at least know their mother tongue correctly.)
Kesshu.

[sean dixie]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
Excuse me? Could someone please translate this into English?
(Sean, "you're" and "your" are totally different. As for manners, I have been nothing but unfailingly polite. What you really mean, of course, is that your ego is offended by being taught as an adult correct grammar, which should be second nature to you. But I am not the correct target for your ire. By all means, vicariously blame your schoolteachers [most of whom are probably now dead or retired], but most of all, do something to correct your grammar. You are a Shorinji Kenshi and, presuming you're at least average, you'll be opening your own branch soon. To wit, Kenshi are educators, and as such, you must know more than your students. Not just technically, but academically as well. Kaiso said so. I don't mean to sound pissy, but Kenshi should at least know their mother tongue correctly.)
Kesshu.

If you're ;) so unfailingly polite how come you are constantly being banned from these and other forums? Ego? Ha! no problem there. As for being more academically quilified than your students I've never heard such bo**ocks! There goes half or more of the worlds dojos. Better not try and help my girlfriend through her shodan exam. :(
Sorry to not be particually educated but there you go, many people here know me and I trust I'm liked for the person I am,and the way I behave. Yes, I may write in small sentences but lets be honest, thats all that will ever be required of me really.
Talking the talk is easy, walking the walk is much harder, your barrings from the internet forums speak louder than any words who if anyone brings Shorinji Kempo into disrepute.

[Tripitaka of AA]

If Mr Good Humour has left the room, may I suggest that the thread be closed.

If anyone had the inclination, perhaps they might separate the grammar posts from those related to the thread topic (sending them into another thread titled "I'll argue grammar with my Granma, while you lot carry on talking about Shorinji Kempo").

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by sean dixie
If you're ;) so unfailingly polite how come you are constantly being banned from these and other forums? Ego? Ha! no problem there. As for being more academically quilified than your students I've never heard such bo**ocks! There goes half or more of the worlds dojos. Better not try and help my girlfriend through her shodan exam. :(

Try to help, Sean.
I get banned for speaking the truth; some people can't handle that.
Like I said, you should at least speak, read, and write your mother tongue correctly. (Note the Ocford comma in the preceding sentence. ;) )

[Anders Pettersson]

If you are going to have long discussions about grammar please take that to private email or a forum that has grammar as its topic.

I really would like to read about Shorinjikempo related things here.

Thanks.

/Anders

[tony leith]

For my part in precipitating this descent into pedantry gone mad. I (like Kimpatsu) think that good grammar actually enhances lucid communication, but Kimpatsu might care to ponder just how likely he is to be persuading people of this by effectively repeatedly calling them idiots. Intelligence is not necessarily directly correlated with grasp of grammar, nor with common courtesy either,unofrtunately. I'd probably agree with Sean's implication that the latter is probably more important than sound grammar.

Terminate the thread, Anders. With extreme prejudice.

Tony Leith