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Arne Oster
31st October 2000, 09:17
Hi,
The new dojo web site of one of my favorite Iaido Sensei
(and dearest friends), at 6th Dan Renshi one of Europe's highest ranked female teachers, living in Birmingham, England, is now on the net at http://www.masamunedojo.com
Hopefully the web site will be developed in the right direction.
Regards
Arne Oster

Ruediger
31st October 2000, 10:54
Nice site, but...the history of MJER is not correct. It's not the second oldest extant martial art. There are a few older ryu... for example... the Kashima Shinryu, the Takeuchi Ryu etc. Just take a look at Diane and Meik's site (or read the books published by them).
I think they (the Masamune Dojo) used the history from Suino's book about MJER (don't know why Suino has claimed in his book that "MJER is the second oldest....", any ideas...??)

Best regards

Ruediger Meier

Scott Irey
1st November 2000, 01:37
Actually I believe up until recently MJER was considered to be the second oldest style that could produce reliable documentation as to the time of its origin. I was taught this in Japan by my MJER instructors and regardless of the organization, MJER ppl took great pride in this fact...I heard the speech form Fukui Toroa sensei on the lineage at least 4 times :) Recently the Kasumi Shin Ryu of the SMR Jodo curricullum has been able to produce documents that place it at well over 600 years old, making it technically the oldest style beign practiced today. That technically drops Katori Shinto Ryu to #2 and MJER to #3. Not that it really matters..documents get lost, and some traditions exist oraly long before anything is put down on paper, but we are talking technicality here :)

Ruediger
1st November 2000, 08:08
If you believe that Hayashizaki Jinsuke was born in 1546 (and - probable - died in 1621) then it's just funny if someone claims a 450 year history, or do you believe that he established his style at the age of four?.
And for the documents... there are ryu with reliable documents, just take a look at Karl Friday's book "Legacies of the Sword".
BTW, i'm also a MJER guy :).

Best regards

Ruediger Meier

[Edited by Ruediger on 11-01-2000 at 07:22 AM]

Scott Irey
1st November 2000, 22:56
Ruediger Meier writes:

If you believe that Hayashizaki Jinsuke was born in 1546 (and - probable - died in 1621) then it's just funny if someone claims a 450 year history, or do you believe that he established his style at the age of four?.

I am not sure on the actual dates of Hayashizaki's birth and death, but you are in the generally accepted window of the time he was alive. I have a in a notebook around here somewhere that his year of birth was 1524 and year of death was 1605 but that was word of mouth and is as unreliable as any word of mouth fact. Most styles have documentation taking them back to some point in time, but even more have "lost" documents or maintained an oral tradition that can take their styles back 1000 years or more in some cases. However these oral traditions are worth as much as the notes I took in from my senseis oral transmission. He can say Hayashizaki was born in 1524, but unless he can produce documents from 1524 recording Hayashizaki's birth, then it is not relieable information and can not be used to prove anything about the style. Hayashizaki shrine holds documents that when compared with family documents and records that have conections to MJER show that the style has been practiced for roughly 450 years. This is acknowledged by the Japanese govt. (ministry of culture or some such office) and based on these documents and the ryu's history MJER is officially considered a cultural asset. And again to the best of my knowledge, the only styles that the Japanese consider older than MJER are Kasumi Shinto Ryu and Katori Shinto Ryu. You don't have to take my word on it, I have not studied the subject deeply, and my information is only as relieable as what my teachers passed onto me, minus the usually loss of N% of information in transmittal...considerably higher than normal in my case..mispent youth contributes greatly to my retention rate :)

Earl Hartman
1st November 2000, 23:48
Scott:

You have made a couple of references to something called the "Kasumi Shin Ryu of the SMR jodo curriculum" and something called the "Kasumi Shinto Ryu".

I have never heard of either of these. Are you referring perhaps to the Kashima Shinto Ryu, an independent ryu which has nothing to do with SMR (so far as I know) and/or the Shinto Ryu kenjutsu which is subsumed within the SMR jo curriculum?

Earl

Nicki Gerstner
2nd November 2000, 05:04
Hello everyone,

looks like this will become an interesting thread here...
According to Draegers Information in his books Hayashizaki seemed to live between 1546 an 1621. also according to Draeger he is said to have had Tenshin Sho at the age of 25, which would be 1570/1571. This would mean that 1570/1571 would be the first possible year for the creation of what back in those days was called the shimmei muso ryu.
This being the case, there would be various ryu older than MJER:
TSKSR (of course), Kashima Shin Ryu (founded 1450), Kashima Shinto Ryu (Bokuden died about 1571), Maniwa Nen Ryu (foended 1368 acc. to Koryu.com), Take(no)uchi Ryu (founded 1532), Yagyu Shinkage Ryu (founded appr.1568).
Does someone have other reliable information on this?
Best,

[Edited by nicki Gerstner on 11-01-2000 at 11:08 PM]

Scott Irey
2nd November 2000, 08:44
Earl,

Both posts should have read Kasumi Shinto Ryu. I am by no means well informed on the SMR system, but Kasumi Shinto Ryu is the same Shinto Ryu of SMR. In recent years records that date back over 600 years and were in private posession have been made public. These records clearly show the Kasumi Shinto Ryu or Shinto Ryu techniques. The ministry of cultural affairs (think that is the correct gavt branch) made quite a big deal out of it. To get the full scoop on the Kasumi Shinto Ryu you would get the most information from either Jerry O'Brian on the Jodo board or Rick Polland . Rick Polland is Kaminoda sensei's representative here in the USA. Both Jerry and Rick are very well informed on the subject.

Matthew Lawrence
2nd November 2000, 15:43
Hello everyone,

Anyone interested in more detail on the (Kasumi) Shinto Ryu and SMR issue might want to check out the IAIDO-L archives. My search for "Kasumi Shinto" led to several messages from Mr. Skoss and Mr. O'Brien that fleshed out the issue a bit.