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zasshu
3rd August 2004, 20:59
In my system of Jujitsu one does not wear a hakama until shodan. I have seen some women in Aikido wearing a blue hakama. I was courious about this tradition. Is this done for modesty ?

Thank you in advance.

Gavriel Poretz

Chuck.Gordon
3rd August 2004, 22:07
I have seen some women in Aikido wearing a blue hakama. I was courious about this tradition. Is this done for modesty ?

Not really. Not anymore anyway.

Why, is it important to you?

In times past, some aikido folks had some odd ideas about modesty.

Today, generally, wearing hakama is more a matter of organizational preference than anything to do with any alleged modesty or such.

And the color is pretty irrelevant.

In traditional budo dojo, the hakama was worn pretty much by everyone. The modern judogi-style uniform is relatively recent, in historical terms.

What's your system of jujutsu? What's the rationale for wearing a hakama at shodan (and why do you use the dan-i grading system)? Or the rationale for wearing a hakama at all?

You do know, of course, that the hakama is sort of the working khaki pants of the warrior class, yes? Nothing special or important at all ...

Chuck

Who's intrigued by co-ed naked budo, but figure it'd be vastly misunderstood.

zasshu
3rd August 2004, 23:16
One of my female students is somewhat religious (non-fanatic)
and usually wears a skirt instead of pants for daily dress.

We may wear a black hakama at shodan, its an "ORG" thing.
I study Danzan Ryu Jujitsu.
Our grading system is two-fold, kyu-dan as well as the menkyo system.

Gavriel Poretz

PS nice web site.

Chuck.Gordon
4th August 2004, 10:21
Originally posted by zasshu


One of my female students is somewhat religious (non-fanatic)
and usually wears a skirt instead of pants for daily dress.


Hmm. Did that cause problems with her wearing a judogi?



We may wear a black hakama at shodan, its an "ORG" thing.
I study Danzan Ryu Jujitsu. Our grading system is two-fold, kyu-dan as well as the menkyo system.


I've trained a bit with some DZR folks, and have hosted Tom Lang a few times when he was nearby. Still keep in touch with him when he's not wandering around China or some former Eastern Bloc country.

I didn't know the DZR folks wore hakama at all, outside formal demos.

I find the organizational obsession with uniforms interesting, and believe it's a fairly modern thing presented as 'tradition.'

In aikido dojo, some teachers will talk about the traditions behind white dogi and dark (usually black or blue hakama), attaching great symbolism to the pleats, the angles formed by the garments, the colors.

It's all pretty odd, owing that hakama were once more or less chaps, or maybe more accurately riding habit and judogi jacket (uwagi or keikogi) was just a cut-down kimono. As I understand it, the modern judogi/karategi type uniform was invented (by Kano s.) around the end of the 19th century or turn of the 20th, and was, in fact, partly based on Western style exercie clothing.

In the old days, folks wore a modified kimono and hakama if the dojo was formal, and they could afford it, if it was military training, the troops wore whatever they normally wore for day-to-day duty, or stripped down to loincloth.

The formalization of budo uniforms (as well as lots of what we now consider traditional behavior in the dojo) was, I believe, at least partially a result of the pervasive hand of the Japanese military in the budo community in pre-war Japan. The post-Meiji Japanese military was modelled on Western armies, and they adopted much of the same approach to training folks in budo as they used to train soldiers.



PS nice web site.


Thanx! It's, as any good site ought to be, a work in progress and I'm pondering a broad reworking of the whole thing.

Chuck

Soulend
4th August 2004, 11:30
As I understand it, the modern judogi/karategi type uniform was invented (by Kano s.) around the end of the 19th century or turn of the 20th, and was, in fact, partly based on Western style exercie clothing.

That's interesting, I had always thought that it was basically a beefed-up version of the underwear normally worn under kimono.

Chuck.Gordon
4th August 2004, 12:22
Originally posted by Soulend
That's interesting, I had always thought that it was basically a beefed-up version of the underwear normally worn under kimono.

That's not too far off. I've read (I'll try to find the references in my library and post 'em) that Kano got tired of his folks ripping each others' clothes up, and designed the dogi jacket from the under-jacket you see some iai players use, a version of the one worn under kimono. Used thicker, woven material rather than linen or silk, and reinforced the tails.

The trousers were (maybe French-inspired, IIRC) copied from what was basically a European school PT uniform.

The belt was originally just a soft obi, such as is used for yukata, but got beefed up after getting shredded in training.

Also seem to remember reading somewhere that either Yamaguchi or one of his teachers adopted Kano's design for karate players, using lighter, but still tough, cloth, more like the canvas togs we see today. Not sure about that source, but then my mind's like a steel sieve.

Chuck

Soulend
4th August 2004, 16:41
Ya learn something new everyday. Thanks Chuck!