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dainippon99
1st November 2000, 05:10
I see a lot of people on this forum talk about how aikido is so much more than fighting, etc. ( i agree by the way). But I think that at least a 50/50 split is needed for kata/more philosphical aikido and combat aikido. IN tomiki aikido, there is competition for many reasons. ONe fo which is that it is as close to a real fight as you can get safely, thus allowing participants to sharpen combat skills to a certain extent. While there are only certain techniques that are allowed, they are the basic premise for the whole system. ANother reason is that through combat, the priciples of aikido can be felt first hand. I want to know waht you guys think about the amount of combat training you feel is necessary.

szczepan
1st November 2000, 15:45
Originally posted by dainippon99
I see a lot of people on this forum talk about how aikido is so much more than fighting, etc. ( i agree by the way). But I think that at least a 50/50 split is needed for kata/more philosphical aikido and combat aikido. IN tomiki aikido, there is competition for many reasons. ONe fo which is that it is as close to a real fight as you can get safely, thus allowing participants to sharpen combat skills to a certain extent. While there are only certain techniques that are allowed, they are the basic premise for the whole system. ANother reason is that through combat, the priciples of aikido can be felt first hand. I want to know waht you guys think about the amount of combat training you feel is necessary.

As far as aikido has two inseparables faces, spiritual and martial, in training in martial part of aikido most important thing is martial spirit.
I'm not sure Tomiki competition is the best tool to teach it.
Rather, right teacher is necesserly to teach martial spirit.

regardz

Gil Gillespie
1st November 2000, 16:56
dainippon, after 17 posts you should know to sign your full name by now.

That said, you've raised a great thread and it should be fun to read the flow of responses! As Szezepan said this is the two-faceted nature of Aikido and the dialog over which should prevail is indeed older than the art. For Aikido is nothing less than Ueshiba Morihei's life work at internalizing the two goals of combat effectiveness with spiritual refinement.

Seen as two ends of the spectrum, every Aikidoka chooses one that the goals of his training will emphasize. He may not be conscious of the choice and the emphasis usually changes over the years. The beautiful thing about this is that the two are in no way mutually exclusive and no one can be wrong in their priority! Those that choose to train near one end of the spectrum and cast aspersions at those who embrace the other, miss O-Sensei's message.

A very learned accomplished member of this forum described Aikido as Daito-Ryu wrapped with neo-Shinto trappings, which is an unfortunate and quite myopic view. O-Sensei was very definitely a religious mystic and this colored all evolutions of his art. Yet in his prime he was also the most impregnable fighter of his era. There can be no denying the difference technically between the AJJ he learned from Takeda Sensei and the Aikido he bequeathed to the world. But this digression would reopen the old -jutsu vs -do dialog.

I have had the honor to have my Aikido formed by Saotome Shihan and his cadre of sensei's. Saotome may be the ultimate representative of the simultaneous achievement of excellence in both facets. He is the in-yo of Aikido.

Mike Collins
1st November 2000, 17:58
To be martially effective, one needs to have some fighting experience, I think. I guess you can get that several ways. I feel quite competent because I fought a lot as a young man, before Aikido. If Aikido is not effective for me in a real situation, it wouldn't be the end of the world, I'd just change what I do.

That said, there are other things I find more rewarding in Aikido to pursue.

I don't know about fighting spirit, I think it is important to be unwilling to lose, because losing means death. If losing means feeling bad and coming back the next time to try harder, it is too easy to quit. If you are afraid to lose because you like being alive rather than the alternative, it provides a better motivation. I'm not sure where you get that kind of thing, except in reality, and I do not recommend that.

I've trained a lot with people who are grapplers, judo guys etc.. and regularly get outclassed, and quit. I do this because I know I can. In a reality situation, I'd prefer to die from my own efforts than at the hands of another. Do you see the difference?

So I don't know what to tell you about "reality checks". I hope you never need it.

Chad Bruttomesso
1st November 2000, 20:04
Mr. B David,

Mr. Gillespie does bring up a good point. As it is the rule of this forum to post with full names I would be most grateful if you would do so.

Thank you.

dainippon99
2nd November 2000, 00:38
Mr. Janczuk (i cant spell your first name correctly, forgive me!)
Mr tomiki developed competition in aikido as a tool for purposes that in his experiences he deemed competition necessary. But if you ask anyone who studied with him while he was living, you will learn that competition was not emphasied. Students of his have said that he thought of competition as a tool and nothing more. And its true that only a good teacher can instill the right qualities.
Yours in forgetfulness,

MarkF
2nd November 2000, 09:04
I probably don't have to say this, but good reading is "Judo and Aikido" by Tomiki Kenji. His particular reasons for competition as a tool is very similar to his judo teacher, Kano Jigoro, Prof.

Most don't realize this, as they see the marketing of Olympic judo taking apart what WAS a good martial art, but they both called randori (or shiai) waza "Randori no kata." This "tool" is simply another way to practice kata, with the winner and loser taking away valuable lessons. Tomiki was a 7-dan when he left the Kodokan. While this probably means nothing to most of you, and this post will be ignored as well, certainly training in this manner has the same advantage as any other training tool.

Mark

Ron Tisdale
2nd November 2000, 14:19
I would never ignore your posts Mark! Besides, it is rather obvious that many of the strong Aikidoka of yore were strong judoka as well. Tomiki and Shioda are just two of the most prominant. I think judo and aikido have some very interesting relationships (they share some technique, some of the spirit as well).

Many of my best training sessions have been with practising or former judoka. They present both a real challenge and a real learning opportunity. Competition may not be the best way to learn aikido (personally I don't like it), but it can be one valuable lesson in performing under pressure, against a resisting opponant.

Ron Tisdale

szczepan
2nd November 2000, 16:49
Competition can be very useful tool in MA developpement, but because of plenty of rules one can't develop martial spirit(or others martial qualites) with this tool.
Reasonably resisiting partner is one of important parts of such developpement and this can be arranged in daily basics without any competition environnement.Another part is weapon practice.

regardz

George Hyde
2nd November 2000, 18:17
Hi All,

Gil refers to "the old -jutsu vs -do dialog" but it shouldn't be totally avoided. In the simplest terms, bujutsu is about self defence/protection and budo is about self realisation/development. Dedication to a 'do' form is apt to make us question its 'jutsu' qualities because doing so is part of that self realisation. By way of an answer, the competitive element is usually suggested as a means to 'test' the justu credibility of the art/student. In reality, the only thing that competition can truly test is the discipline's competitive application, which usually has little or no resemblance to the discipline itself.

It is also important to make the distinction between competition and sport. The opportunity for mutually beneficial practice of a "competitive" nature should be encouraged in the dojo, but only for its random, fluid, spontaneous qualities. This approach is entirely in keeping with the 'do' elements of the discipline. Sport on the other hand is an entirely different matter. The objective of sport is to create champions, break records, etc.. by definition, the participants are looking for recognition of themselves from others. The objective of 'do' is self-recognition.

As for the ultimate question... "Is what I'm doing REALLY going to help me defend myself?"... that is entirely a matter for the individual. Both competition and competitive practice can only simulate, not replicate a real combative situation. The performance of an individual in a fight or competition speaks only of the individual, not the discipline. So the question should be... "Is who I am, REALLY going to help me defend myself?"

IMHO, exclusive dedication to the 'do' form will provide the individual with the ability to attain realisation self and others. If your objective is to be supremely confident, efficient and decisive in any given combative situation, a total realisation of self is a prerequisite.

Final note: If the objective of the discipline is to produce competition winners, then competition will test its ability to do so. If the objective is to provide the student with the opportunity to become a better person, this can be put to the test every day, without the need for judges.

Sorry if this appears rant-like.

Later,

dainippon99
6th November 2000, 20:54
Mark,
where can i find the book by tomiki sensei? i havent ever read it and being a exponent of tomiki aikido (as well as all around martial scholar) i would absolutely love the chance to get it.
Thanks Much.

Karl Kuhn
6th November 2000, 22:44
Hi . I just noticed the thread and thought I would suggest a couple of articles that are available on-line from the JAA USA site. I highly reccomend them to anyone with an interest in Aikido and Budo.

Where are you " a exponent of tomiki aikido (as well as all around martial scholar)" ?

On Jujutsu and its Modernization
http://www.sni.net/tomiki/tomikionjujitsu.html

The Fundamental Principles of Judo
http://www.sni.net/tomiki/tomikionjudo.html

I also remember there being a transaltion of Competition Aikido by Prof. Tomiki on the Shodokan Honbu page but the URL I have is not right. If I find it, I will post it.

Enjoy,
Karl

dainippon99
7th November 2000, 04:19
Mr. Kuhn,
I am a student out of Tulsa, Oklahoma. I beleive we briefly met at the games this year in virginia (i have a photographic memory, so i remember your face). where do you practice in chicago?

Karl Kuhn
7th November 2000, 15:11
New City Aikido/Chicago Shodokan, thanks for asking. Are you with Dave Axe?

Any thoughts on the articles?

In Budo,
Karl

dainippon99
7th November 2000, 22:02
I have relatives in deerfield, so next time im in town, i will be sure to pay a visit.:toast: I am not with dave axe, but with will sharp, at Tulsa Aikido and Jujutsu. SInce dave is known enough outside oklahoma, everyone assumes that we are from his dojo. This is not so. And i have read those articles before and have them printed and in a notebook. I find them that stimulating.

dainippon99
7th November 2000, 22:03
BTW,
Do you have kerry nettles e mail address? i need to contact her about maybe getting a copy of aikido and judo by tomiki sensei.