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Harold James
1st November 2000, 08:13
I was 13 when I started doing martial arts. My first teacher was no one famous, didn't make any movies, didn't write any books, didn't really do anything to make himself stand out as a "teacher" in a way that would have made him well known.

As a typical 13 year old kid though, I had these "romantic" ideas of what martials arts were, of what a martials arts teacher should be, and what I thought I was going to get out training.I really looked up to this guy and I wanted to be like him very much.

One day, we had a new guy in class. After class I was talking with my teacher when this new guy comes up and joins the conversation.Turns out he had just gotten out of the county lock-up for dealing dope. Then my teacher asked him if he was still selling and if he could buy weed from the guy.

Needless to say, my ideas of what a martial arts teacher should be were shattered. My ideas of what I thought I should get out of the training was now in question in my own mind. My idea of what martials arts should be was also challenged.

Being 13 at that time I admit that I perhaps did not have a realistic perspective. This experience has colored the way I approach my teacher today, some 20 years later.

There is a thread elsewhere on e-budo about teachers and drug usage and teachers who get high on thier own success or self-defined importance in the budo world. I want to turn this idea around, and think about students who get addicted to "an ideal" of what they percieve martials to be, thier teachers in particular and how to deal with situations like the one I had when I was 13.

Should a teacher only teach techniques in the dojo and leave the philosophy behind when he locks the door after practice? Has anyone else had a siilar experience that has chnaged thier outlook on martial arts teachers? Why do some students worship thier teachers and think of them as being more than or above ordinary human weaknesses?

Blues
1st November 2000, 08:29
Worshipping fellow human beings totally will (almost) always end in disaster. We're all human, we all have our weaknesses. We all have our strengths.

If we require our teachers to be perfect we're very likely to become dissapointed with them. I think we'd be best off if we stick to worshipping their strong points. Their technique, their teachings. If I would start worrying about what they do during the weekend there'd be no end to it. I have to draw the line somewhere. As long as it doesn't interfere with my training, I basically don't give a damn.

I'd rather recieve good training from a pot-smoking a**hole than flawed training from Mr. Nice.

Thomas Wahl
1st November 2000, 10:46
Hi Menno!

Your right on the money!
Student's should understand, that we (teachers) are also only humans!
We are no Monk's which live in another world and have no contact to the "normal" world. The problem is, that there ar such teachers which (think) they are without any "normal" problems or sins! So they think, they are someone vvvery important.

In the end what count's is the training and what it gives our students for their live! If it makes their live better and more controlled for them, I think we ar allowed to smoke weed, or get drunk sometimes, or what ever.... in certain limits of course!

Harold James
1st November 2000, 11:22
Young people, though it is not limitted to them only, are easily impressed by those who they look up to. Martial Arts teachers are role models for young people. In my case, I had read so many books and articles of the time, that I believed that my teacher was automatically a moral and socially upstanding person just because he did martial arts and was a teacher.

Yes, teachers are only human and make mistakes like students do. Even though when we read books and articles that talk about the virtues of martail arts, one should keep in mind that they are just that, stories.

What makes a teacher great I think, is his or her willingness to embrace that which makes them human and lead by showing that it is not important whether you fall down, but that you get back up try again.

jchetty
1st November 2000, 11:58
My teachers are pretty regular, decent guys who just happen to be teachers of my martial art.

They are not old and wize and they don't guide my life.

I would not train with them if they were not decent guys though ( at least decent to me).

BrianV
1st November 2000, 19:01
Hi All,
We have to remember that no matter what rank we attain, skills we develop, or associations we cultivate, we are and will always be human beings.
Imperfect, fallible, not always in control, needing of guidance and friendships, and all which this entails.
We are all students, no matter if we are the Head Instructors, Mudansha, Yudansha or whatever.
No instructor that I have ever met has attained spiritual, physical or mental perfection.(Even though a few may have thought they had).
I have had the pleasure of knowing Senseis, Gurus and others who gave me role models of trying to be the best they could. I have met Senseis, Gurus and others who amazed me with their martial skills and made me want to take a shower after spending an afternoon listening to them, they were so slimy.
A Black Belt, instructor certification or exceptional skill level are no indicator of worth as a Human. That is determined by the soul.
If my students want to regard me as a role model, I am flattered.
If they want to worship or idolize me, then I am worried for them. ( and apprehensive of what I am doing to foster this).

Separating Person from Rank was taught to me in the Military and re-inforced by the MA instructors I have studied with.
I can learn from them all, but which I want to associate with on a personal basis is a whole different matter.

Best Regards to all,

[Edited by BrianV on 11-01-2000 at 01:08 PM]

Nick
1st November 2000, 23:08
I feel the sensei should be a role model not only in technique but in lifestyle. Not only for the matter of zanshin, but also, if we look at the literal translation of "Shihan", we find it means "Model."

Personally, I feel we shouldn't "worship" any human, because religious aspects aside, we are all imperfect (anyone who tells you differently is, well... wrong). I think we should want an instructor whom we could try to emulate with no bad feelings (E.G. to Mr. Jones- would you have wanted to emulate your aforementioned instructor?).

Perhaps you can only focus on one aspect of your teacher, but than you're shutting yourself off to another side, making the relationship between the two of you strained, at best.

Peace,

Nick Porter

Harold James
2nd November 2000, 00:42
Originally posted by Nick


(E.G. to Mr. Jones- would you have wanted to emulate your aforementioned instructor?)

Nick Porter


Mr. Porter, I assume you mean me... "James" not "Jones"... I did want want to emulate my teacher, right up until that point in time I wrote about.

Now that I am older, I can see the world though a little more experienced eyes. When I was 13, my teacher then had a different moral and ethical standard than that which I was raised with. When he asked if he could buy some dope from the guy, I was really let down and dissapointed. But that didn't really change the guy's technique, nor did his teaching change from the way it always had been in class. I was the one who changed.(maybe it was a good experience in terms of growing up in the real world)

My current teacher is at a whole different level of profenciency in Martail Arts and I want to emulate that. But I still take everything with a grain of salt.I examine what I see and make a decission as to its potential value to me. His culture is very different than mine, (and he is very traditional in his teaching methods) and that alone can be challenging when deciding what is morally acceptable and what is not.

There are several different reasons why people are motivated to start Martial Arts training. If one is looking for a fighting system that is just "pure fighting" than who cares how moral or ethical the guy is. Maybe you would want to know how many people he knifed when he was growing up in Attica or his techniques for jailhouse shower-room defense. Others might want more than that from what they invest thier time in. If I was unwilling to let my children train with a teacher then I wouldn't want to train with him either. Unless I was just interested in learning how to "fight", and less worried about the philosophical side of MA.

I think it is very important to look into the background of a teacher before one becomes that person's student. After that, one should surrender to the changes that are possable from the training and the association with the people in the dojo.

Nick
2nd November 2000, 01:37
Ack, I apologize about your name- I didn't see that... gomen nasai...

Agreed, you can look only to the technical, but then you will learn only the technical. This is fine as long as you realize it and don't try to attach anything superfluous to it.

Next- of course, you shouldn't be exactly like your teacher. As humans our differences are our greatest strengths... however, if you are trying to look deeper into budo, you have to ask yourself if you want to be like your sensei in terms of not only technique but attitude. This makes having multiple instructors even more useful, especially in Aikido- what works on one may not on another, and so I try to apply that to my life.

Peace,

Nick Porter

KenpoKev
2nd November 2000, 01:40
This isn't meant as a thread drift, but given the fact that the USA has a nearly 50% (by some estimates) divorce rate, it means we have a huge number of kids entering our dojos that do not have a male role model in their life. I teach in a church outreach program and a large number of our kids don't have a dad around, plus most of the school teachers are women. Not meaning to be sexist, but kids NEED to have positive male role models. As martial arts instructors (most of us male) I think we have an obligation to live our lives in a positive manner and reflect the highest qualities of budo. We should not reflect the lovely qualities that are fervently discussed in the Bad Budo section.

Look at the crap that is pedaled to kids in the media, the behavior of so many professional athletes, and the general lack of respect in our society. Why not hold a better standard and show WHY the martial arts are not a sport, but a means towards real self-improvement.

You can know the fruit by examining the root. Class instructors usually produce class students.

Sorry about the soapbox, but this is a hot button subject for me.
Respectfully,
Kevin Schaller

Blues
3rd November 2000, 07:16
Others (like myself) disagreed and pointed out that your private life carriers over into your public and visa versa. That is she is a role model for teenagers, despite what they think of her or what she thinks of herself, choose to be in the teaching profession that required her to live an expected life style as a positive role model for kids.

Life has so many more facets than just being 'good'. Call me ignorant but I don't see any problem with a role model being a flawed human being. If all our role models are perfect, who is going to teach us how to make mistakes every now and then? Last weekend I attended a seminar of Obata sensei. I don't remember the exact words he used but he very much urged us to use our senses. Look around. If you see good technique: copy! If you see bad technique: don't copy! Help eachother out. It's very easy for us to look at others and tell what is wrong with what they do, but it's alot harder to look at ourselves.

It sounded more impressive when he said it, though. ;)

MarkF
3rd November 2000, 10:50
I stayed with my first instructor because he was nice. I stayed with my second teacher because he was funny and nice. All told, I would say these are good reasons, but what stuck out in Kevin's post was that he used the term "martial arts instructor." Here is a beginning. S/he is an instructor, not God. If we can stay with this term when referring to an instructor until we get older and wiser, and understand who is "sensei" and who is not, it is a beginning.

Instructors should not be made to appear on a pedestal and thought of as the "god of one's entire being," rather s/he is the instructor until we know what and who is sensei, understand the lifestyle a little better, and then use a term such as sensei to mean Sir or Madam.

I suspect in Japan, an instructor with a student much older than himself, when called sensei by the older student, would gently explain the term is incorrect because the student is truly "the one who came before." I say Japan, because I have heard from people who have done a good amount of study there, actually say the were corrected.

It doesn't realy matter whether true, but the lesson is in there somewhere.

Mark

Rob
3rd November 2000, 12:58
First of all I'd like to say that I completely agree with the inital position of this thread that both student and instructor should guard against a 'cult of personality' developing within a club.

It's not helpful to either party.

However as to whether we should care about our instructors moral fibre or lifestyle ? It depends upon why you're there and what you're looking for from your art.

If fundamentally, your reason for training is to get fit or learn self defence or for any other 'skill' based aim then within certain extreme boundaries why should you care less about your instructors character as long as they are teaching you in a safe and responsible manner and you're enjoying your sessions?

However if, and I think this comprises many of us on this board, the reason you train and the reason you do the art that you do is because you both believe and want it to have a significant affect on what sort of person you are, then surely the sort of person that your sensei (and taking Marks' point I deliberately use that term in this sense) is, is fundamentally important ?

If you are seeking a 'way' why use a guide who's going in a different direction ?

MarkF
4th November 2000, 07:50
Robert,
There does seem to be an inordinate number of tourists these days.

Mark

Stevo
4th November 2000, 08:37
Originally posted by Harold James
Should a teacher only teach techniques in the dojo and leave the philosophy behind when he locks the door after practice?

I'm indebted to my instructor, who taught me that a sensei is more than just "one who teaches". A sensei has to set the example for their students, and has a responsibility for their moral and ethical guidance. This is the philosophy I apply when teaching.

IMHO, if you teach techniques without imparting the disciplines that go with them, then you're not showing your students the true "path" that martial art provides.

Blues
4th November 2000, 13:51
A sensei has to set the example for their students, and has a responsibility for their moral and ethical guidance.

But who sets the standard? If you talk about morals and ethics, these are not absolute values. They differ from person to person, culture to culture and era to era. Which should the teacher use as an example for the student? How can one possibly know whether or not one's own morals and ethics are correct? How can one demand a sensei to be responsible for 'ethical guidance' when ethics are so subjective that basically nothing sensible can be said about them?

MarkF
5th November 2000, 09:18
Well, this one is where a good teacher comes in, instead of a good MA. An instructor can only teach and guide what he/she thinks, or lives by, to the students. Here, a teacher must be both liberal in what s/he expects from a student, while conservative in such things as right and wrong. These are basics I think most will abide, but for those who don't, the student must be responsible for one's self, or the parent must.

Philosophy, on the other hand, can be self-acquired, and a student, who abides by the basic of ethics (following rules), can adopt a singular philosophy concerning the "why" and "whatfors" of the particular dojo, or teacher.

The safest bet is not to make one, so someone seeking out instruction, or who is going to hand over one's child for an hour and a half twice a week must be wise in seeking them out and not simply to place one's own good in the hands of someone who simply calls himself "teacher." This is not a public education, so sample the fare, talk with the instructor, ask about financing upfront, and, above all, take a sample class or classes. If you are not stisfied for any reason, go somewhere else. First instinct pays off big time.

Mark

DavidP
6th November 2000, 13:33
People join a martial art school to learn the living skills they have seen martial artists portray in movies and books.
People will join a martial art school, even unscrupulous schools, if the teacher demonstrates the confidence , charisma or strength of character they desire, despite the quality of techniques they see.

An instructor, and to a certain extent the senior students of a school, are automatically given "leadership" status by new students. Simply put an instructor is a role model and they are constantly being watched, assessed and mimicked.

For me, a good instructor will take this responsibility seriously and will see it as an opportunity to be a positive influence on impressionable or enquiring minds. Part of that responsibilty is developing their own living skills i.e. to be on the "path".

Most instructors fall well short of this responsibilty. They are afterall, only human.

Harold James
6th November 2000, 22:46
Originally posted by MarkF


...

I suspect in Japan, an instructor with a student much older than himself, when called sensei by the older student, would gently explain the term is incorrect because the student is truly "the one who came before." I say Japan, because I have heard from people who have done a good amount of study there, actually say the were corrected.

...





Mark:

I don't know about other dojo in Japan, but at the dojo where I am a member, there are about 4 guys older than my teacher, two of them a lot older. In the dojo everyone refers to him as Sensei (and as far a budo goes, he is very traditional.) Even the other Menkyo in the dojo (my other teacher) refers to him as Sensei... but then they call each other Sensei all the time. I have the impression that in the dojo it is only a matter of formality and tradition and of course Respect. Outside of the dojo, where many of the members are his social equal, every calls him _______ San. Except me and a few others, I always call him Sensei.

Besides Mark, in the dojo, age isn't what "one comes before" in, none of those older guys can do what my teacher can do in budo because they don't have the experience that he has. Can you imagine in Japan a 70 year old retired construction worker refusing to address his 55 year old doctor as "Sensei" simply because he is older? I doubt it very much.Were the people you know who did a fair anount of study here non-Japanese or Japanese? It might have been a situation where the teacher felt uncomfortable because of the cultural differences.In Japan "Sensei" is a sort of title used like "Mr." or "Ms.", and some jobs such as doctors, lawyers, school teachers... are just simply called ______ Sensei by everyone in society, especially when they are doing that job!

But then the term "Sensei" was discussed, I think, earlier on e-budo.Perhaps it is more of a case by case thing- dojo by dojo. When I started this thread I wrote about my experience when I was 13 and of course that was in the States. It's not an American or a Western thing by any means. I have seen the same thing happen here in Japan (and can think of some current examples as well) more than once. I think it is not just a budo thing either, when any student feels that his/her teacher has a high level of charisma, there exists a situation where the student can slowly come to idolize the teacher, and often the student doesn't even know it when it happens.

Sal
14th November 2000, 01:14
Even teachers are human and make mistakes & have lives outside the dojo. I guess I'm kinda lucky, don't know my teacher that well, but he's a nice guy & you can always ask him for help & he's very dedicated (he's got about a 50 mile trip to the dojo & he comes about 3/4 times a week)
I don't think you should 'worship' your instructor but as long as you get along with them, that's the best way to go for better learning & you find you tend to enjoy your martial art more but, there are a LOT of instructors who you'd rather avoid who will teach you one or two things, and the rest you've got to pick up on your own then tell you what you're doing is wrong! In which case you're either forced to move dojo but in some cases you can't so.....well, either put up or give up.

MarkF
14th November 2000, 09:27
Sal,
Please sign your posts with your full name.

Harold, I was only making a point here, but here in the states, and in Japan, it is common for the younger teacher to refer to his older student as sensei. Your boss is your sensei as well. This is common particularly in judo simply because of the informality of the dojo. I was only making a point about carefully examining a prospective teacher. The teacher works for the student, not the other way around.

But you are correct on the past in which it was Margaret Lo who said that it has come to mean "sir, or "mister," etc. I agree. The point is in how and why the teacher insists on it, and reasons for calling him/her sensei. The younger doctor, BTW, should always refer to an older patient as sensei, at the least in Japan. It is the same as calling your elders sir, whether he/she is your student or not. Obviously it is different here, but the shoe fits. When I taught ESL, everyone called me "maestro" in and out of class, but not for the reasons given, it is a term of endearment as well, and I would think it means the same thing.

In my dojo, students call me Mark. Why? Take a look at my last name.:D

Mark

Harold James
26th November 2000, 23:00
Originally posted by MarkF



I was only making a point about carefully examining a prospective teacher. The teacher works for the student, not the other way around.

In my dojo, students call me Mark. Why? Take a look at my last name.:D

Mark





Mark

I would agree with you that in the US the Teacher works for the student. And this is true in many commmercial dojo in Japan as well (still the only oppinion that matters in the teacher's). But there are many dojo, mine included, that it is "I" who work for the teacher (in fact I think of it as I belong to him, interms of a student teacher relationship.I couldn't go out and even join another dojo without asking him first.)When I joined my current dojo I first went and watched a class, where I was watched in turn, and then I asked very politely if he would teach me. I and everyone else remain there because we have this attitude. My teacher makes no money from this, I pay a mere 3,000 yen per month and I'm not sure if all together we even pay rent on the dojo. I have seen others refused permission to join the dojo because thier attitudes were not what is required in a dojo like mine. Don't get me wrong here, my teacher will take anyone who wants to learn and is willing to submit to the cultural trappings of a Koryu art and that goes for both Japanese and non-Japanese.

The other thing is language and culture. Here in Japan, I have to do things the Japanese way and in the Japanese language. I can't really take liberties with the language and use words in innapropriate ways, which is what many people in MA in the States do. Mostly because they do not understand the words in a language/cultural context. They count to ten or something like that or call the kata by thier Japanese names, but it doesn't go much father than that.The best things I learn from my teachers are when we are sitting around drinking tea before practice or having lunch afterwards.

I tend to evaluate things based on my experience, and for the last several years that experience has been outside of the US. Sometimes I just forget that things are done diffeently in the US than in Japan when it comes to budo.And of course, my oppinions and points of view are often off the mark at first anyway... live and learn. The way things are done in the US is, I suppose, the best way to do it in the US. There's culture again.

By the way MARK, how does one pronounce your family name? I don't want to hazard a guess, but I think I would call you Mark too.

Later...

MarkF
27th November 2000, 11:49
Hi, Harold,
People begin to sweat when they see more than two vowels or three syllables. In general, German names have basic rules: If it is spelled "ei" it is pronounced "eye." Ie is pronounced "ee." The middle syllable is just like it is spelled, with a hard g and a short e, as in get. "Baum" rhymes with Brown.
____________________
My point was only that it means whatever it is supposed to mean, and some Japanese people have corrected the older student of lesser grade as it "wasn't proper." I didn't want to make a case for disrespect, but only on how the respect is earned. Therefore, the teacher, no matter if koryu or judo, works for the student. If a teacher doesn't respect the student, it just won't work. This is not a Japan Vs the West thing, this is just common decency and respect, and they run both ways. Respect is earned, not demanded. While it is certainly the better choice to respect the teacher at first, if he doesn't live up to his own standards neither will his students.

BTW: I call my doctor "Mike." He is younger than I am.:)

Mark

Stefan
27th November 2000, 13:33
A teacher should only guide the student on the way of becoming a martial artist and a good human being.
The student should not try to become his teacher but to discover himself and overcome his failures and weaknesses to be able to live a good life.


So, what do you think of that?

Steve Williams
27th November 2000, 23:35
The meaning of "Sensei" is teacher, but I have been told that the correct translation is "one who has gone before". I don't speak much Japanese so will be happy to be corrected :D

Taking this view then there should be no problem calling your teacher "sensei" when in the dojo, when out of the dojo then call him whatever he choses.

When I teach I do not expect my students to call me sensei, but they do (some are older than me, the oldest by about 10 years), outside the dojo it is just "Steve", when we interact outside of the dojo I would not have it any other way.

I see my Sensei occasionally on a social level and he has given me some very good advice (non MA related), but I do not "worship" him any more than my students "worship" me (at least I hope they don't, I am only human).

One of the best ideas on this topic was told me by my Sensei when I first started teaching in my own branch, I cannot remember the actual words, but the gist was something like this:
"In the dojo, you are the master, you must have the best and the clearest technique and you must show that and teach that to your students, BUT outside of the dojo, we are all the same, we are all human, your students may be school teachers, politicians, company directors, street sweepers or be unemployed, you are not better than them, you are just one of them".

MarkF
28th November 2000, 23:25
I think the translation of sensei is "one who comes before" or it could be past tense, I'm not sure. This could be taken simply as teacher, or it could simply be polite, as is "Sir", "Mister," or "Ma'am."

The point is, while the student may be doing all the work he can for the teacher, the teacher should not be any less giving in his/her job. Not only shouldn't the teacher be making a copy of himself, but with hard work on both ends, the student should be better than the teacher, or the teacher's goal should be along those lines. If the student feels this is happening or is understood, respect will come naturally, and not have to be forced.

I agree, Steve. Leave it on the mat. When you get home, you should feel satisfied with your training that day, and if so, it matters little which direction your budo takes you.

Mark

Harold James
29th November 2000, 05:26
There is a difference between how the Japanese use the word Sensei and how English speakers use it outside of Japan. It is more a term of respect, and I just don't see the Japanese going by the literal translation. And you never see a Japanese person refer to themselves as Sensei suchandsuch. I only see that by non-Japanse outside of Japan. It demonstrates exactly how little they know about the language and I don't accept the arguement that some do it for a joke or to make a point. When I see people refer to themselves as Sensei on e-budo it makes me chuckle.

I am not trying to point out other's linguistic ignorence (I have enough of my own),nor do I want to start a war about what "Sensei" means. I do want to point out that the culture has a lot to do with how words are used. I reccomend that if people want to understand the Japanese language element of Japanese MA better, why not start by studying the culture and the language. I don't mean learning the Japanese names of the kata or what ever I mean a real study of the language.

Gil Gillespie
29th November 2000, 14:15
Stefan your brief succinct post was quite accurate, I think. A sensei is a GUIDE (along The Path, should you choose to view budo that way) & the end result should be not so much discovering as REFINING YOUR SELF, in budo and in life, hand in hand. The above posts have all described the dangerous fallacy of worshipping one's sensei, or any other human. I have a larger problem with anthropomorphic worship in any guise, but that's another story. . .

Understanding "sensei merely as "teacher" does ignore depths of respect and meaning that also occurs in the Jewish word "rabbi" merely seen as "teacher." Mark and Earl, among others, can explain this much more deeply. In my travels I have come to see the two terms as equally steeped in culturally defined layers that are often invisible to one who does not make the effort to explore beneath the surface of "teacher."

Carl Long
29th November 2000, 18:37
Well here I go. I'm sure I'll be crucified for this because of the content and my lack of ability to express myself, but I'll try.....

If one wishes to become a great painter, sculptor, dancer, musician or in our case budoka, it is imperitive to seek instruction from a correct model of what we wish to become. You can certainly learn how to draw cartoons by doodling but whether or not it is considered art is a different story. Art is mans means of expressing ones perception of his envirionment and how he feels in relation to it through a chosen medium.

A painter uses a brush, canvas and paint to express how he feels about a subject and commits those feelings to the canvas. The musician uses his instrument and the chosen music to express how he feels through the sounds that he creates. The dancer expresses their perception of the dance and music through whatever style of dance he chooses to perform. The "Martial Artist" expresses his perception and feeling in a given moment through his chosen medium (Budo). That is, if what he is doing can be considered art. If not, then he is simply a martial technician.

How is this significant? Well, the Budo as a "martial art", must express the practitioners feeling and perception of whats going on inside of him during the performance of his martial technique. This means that in order to emulate a teachers "Art" one must also learn to emulate the teachers feelings and perceptions. Otherwise the student is only learning how to hold the teachers paintbrush and mix the teachers paint but can never express the teachers artform through those tools. In order to assimilate the art of a master of any artform it is imperitive that the student commit himself fully to understanding what makes the master of his craft tick. In order for this to happen the student must do what the master (Sensei) does, try to understand what motivated the master (Sensei) to do those things the way he did. What in the masters experience led him to see things the way he does. Then try to COPY those motivations and feelings and express them in the same medium as his teacher. This takes years of commitment to a teacher (Sensei) to understand the methods of using the tools of one's craft. It takes even longer to understand what makes my teachers art so different from another artists. Even great artists of the same style of painting or dance evoke completely different feelings about the same subject they paint or dance to.

This is why in order to be a "Martial Artist", it is important to not only choose your art form, it is even more important to choose your teacher wisely. Choose an artist that you would like to move like, think like, create like and perceive your world like. When you can copy and express your Teachers feelings through your martial art, then and only then will you be able to break free and create something that is uniquely yours.Shu-HA Ri is not a uniquely Japanese concept. It is a universal concept throughout Artforms. Find a proper mold. Fit into it. Become a toal reflection of the mold and express what the mold was trying to express (Perception and feeling). Then break free and create because you now know what it is like to truly feel how to express yourself through a medium. That is why those individuals that study with a master of his craft, seem to develop a high regard for their sensei. They understand him from a deeper point of view than those other casual observers. It is difficult to express this kind of devotion in contemporary society that can mass produce a Monet for someones basement bar or kick out thousands of Ming Vases in less time than it took the original artist to mix his clay. But try to educate yourself in the ways of the master painter or sculpter and see what a great appreciation you develop for their art. That doesn't mean you'll be inclined to perfect their methods or artform. In fact, you'll probably be less inclined to even start the process because of a new understanding of how deep the student/teacher relationship has to become. It is not for those who are insecure about their own identity. Actually, you must be very secure about who you are before you can attempt to copy someone else. If you cannot make this leap of faith, it is better to remain forever a "martial technician" not a Martial Artist."

Carl Long

MarkF
30th November 2000, 11:47
Well, Carl, you went a long way to explain "Before you can break the rules, you must first understand what the rules are." I agree.

Good point, and many make the mistake when starting out, is finding the "right art." Most would do better to find the right teacher, no matter what it is s/he teaches.

The usual post by someone looking at budo as a MA is: "I wanna be a martial artist, but I want something with weapons." Then, the usual "Pick my art, no mine! Mine!"

Interview a few teachers, sample a class, then take certain things which will be important if you do stay. Where is it? How many days a week? How does it fit into my schedule?

These necessities may seem minor and unimportant, but while deciding a direction you want to follow, first find that which fits. If after a time, you have felt the "addictiveness" of it, and want to spread your wings, then you will have arrange your life around the art, if this is to be a serious, life long undertaking. No matter.

The problem here is that to follow a teacher exactly, a student must understand what type of lifestyle the teacher follows, how the student can benefit the art, and how the teacher can benefit from the student. If the teacher creates copies of himself, and when accompishes this, is content with the student deifying him, then you may have to make the move all over again, chalk it up to life experience, and try again, and you will if you are like most of the other "idiots" in MA who don't care what the world thinks, but only in a satisfying day of training, then you will do it with pleasure. They do come on bunches of one. Satisfaction rarely comes 24/7. The teacher must be capable of making the student better than himself, and the student must work, and work hard. It isn't easy, but most here know of this all ready, and are willing. It just takes the right texture and the correct fit.

This only takes a lifetime, or two.

Mark

Gil Gillespie
1st December 2000, 02:02
Greetings in gassho, Carl and Mark

As you both raised perceptive and accurate criteria for evaluating (and choosing) one's sensei I'm left wondering how many prospective budoka are equipped with the tools to make such a choice? I believe every word in my heart that the teacher is more important than the art, but how does an interested outsider judge? Recognizing the qualities you've both mentioned so eloquently comes after years in ones art so a catch-22 seems to rear its head in choosing a teacher.

Visiting, observing, questioning can only go so far without the perspective of experience. I have been graced with an unbroken line of truly admirable life-molding instructors, in different arts, but I was lucky to choose a great dojo. What if I chose poorly? Where would I get the perspective to search further? I might have a store-bought Godan today! Hmmmmmmmmmm.

Carl Long
1st December 2000, 02:59
Hello Gil and Mark,

I wish I could have expressed myself as eloquently as the two of you do. The catch 22 situation is exactly what is bound to happen to most people. Unless they are really fortunate. The teacher may not be the appropriate one for the beginning student. Or the teacher may be excellent for the student at a beginners level but the student may (and hopefully will) surpass the teacher and then need to search for further models to emulate. I think the key is in finding an appropriate model for where you are at the moment.

But...in reference to why some students may appear to Idolize/Worship their instructor, I put forth the possibility that those students may have a greater insight into their teacher than the individual posing the question does.

A. There are certainly those Cultish figures within the Martial arts world that propagate hero worship within their dojo. And I would caution the prospective student to beware.

B.But, there are also fine upstanding teachers of budo whose students have a deep respect for their sensei because of the guidance and relationship they have developed.

I think one must differentiate between the two types of honor shown towards the teacher in question. Recognize that there are two separate types of Idolizing/worship that may appear to be going on. A VS B

I think Gil raises an interesting point regarding how do you know if you've found the right guy. I believe that is a never ending process. How do you know you've met the right girl. I know I've been wrong a few times. That's what the dating process is all about. I've also dated a few dojo in my time that turned out to be heartbreakers. But it didn't kill my faith in my ability to have a love affair with the right one when it came along. Aww...sure it hurts for a while. And it makes you older and wiser. I've learned alot about what to look for over the years (even more about myself). But when I think I've found someone whose budo I want to emulate, I commit myself unconditionally. Do I know it could end? You bet I do. I've been down this road before. Just ask anyone who has been through more than one marriage. There is only one first marriage. After that your whole concept of "Forever, till death do us part" changes. Never the less, I refuse to hold back because of an old broken heart. Those experiences will help mold my own perceptions of how I create my present budo experience (and marriage). Suffering is an absolute part of living. And some would say that it is indispensible for an artist of any kind. Being taken advantage of by unscrupulous people in any walk of life SUCKS. Budo is just another example of how art imitates life. Help me out guys. If you know of any shortcuts to the end of the PATH. I'll be forever in your debt.

Carl

P.S. I wonder every day if my Godan was a store bought one or a sweat bought one. I guess that keeps me honest.

[Edited by Carl Long on 11-30-2000 at 09:03 PM]

Hank Irwin
1st December 2000, 03:41
Originally posted by Popie

Originally posted by Harold James
I was 13 when I started doing martial arts. My first teacher... had a new guy in class... my teacher ... [asked] if ....he could buy weed from the guy. Needless to say, my ideas of what a martial arts teacher should be were shattered. Being 13 ... perhaps(I)did not have a realistic perspective.


First of all, I feel people who call themselves MA instructors must fill the bill. That is follow the universal archetype of a teacher .i.e living ethical and moral standards. We impeach a President of the US because he violated trust. If fact we should have impeached more but they didn't get caught. But, that is beside the point. The point is, we expect ethical and moral standards from all our leaders, especially MA instructors. Why? well so a 13 year old doesn't becoe shattered, let down, or disillusioned by scum. Hello Popiesan, I think of that old quote"To err is human, to forgive, divine." This should be a guideline for many of us. Is it not the ultimate goal to reach "The Gates of Shaolin"? Not many really make it. Greed, violence,self-centeredness,duplicity and addiction is something everyone of us deals with everyday. All we can do is Train HARD and be good Human Beings.

Hank Irwin
1st December 2000, 03:51
Originally posted by Harold James

Originally posted by Nick


(E.G. to Mr. Jones- would you have wanted to emulate your aforementioned instructor?)

Nick Porter


Mr. Porter, I assume you mean me... "James" not "Jones"... I did want want to emulate my teacher, right up until that point in time I wrote about.

Now that I am older, I can see the world though a little more experienced eyes. When I was 13, my teacher then had a different moral and ethical standard than that which I was raised with. When he asked if he could buy some dope from the guy, I was really let down and dissapointed. But that didn't really change the guy's technique, nor did his teaching change from the way it always had been in class. I was the one who changed.(maybe it was a good experience in terms of growing up in the real world)

My current teacher is at a whole different level of profenciency in Martail Arts and I want to emulate that. But I still take everything with a grain of salt.I examine what I see and make a decission as to its potential value to me. His culture is very different than mine, (and he is very traditional in his teaching methods) and that alone can be challenging when deciding what is morally acceptable and what is not.

There are several different reasons why people are motivated to start Martial Arts training. If one is looking for a fighting system that is just "pure fighting" than who cares how moral or ethical the guy is. Maybe you would want to know how many people he knifed when he was growing up in Attica or his techniques for jailhouse shower-room defense. Others might want more than that from what they invest thier time in. If I was unwilling to let my children train with a teacher then I wouldn't want to train with him either. Unless I was just interested in learning how to "fight", and less worried about the philosophical side of MA.

I think it is very important to look into the background of a teacher before one becomes that person's student. After that, one should surrender to the changes that are possable from the training and the association with the people in the dojo. Hello Jamessan, it was said Kyan Chotoku and Motobu Choki used to like to visit the "Red Light" districts in Okinawa sometimes with students to "further" their training. I'm not saying I disagree or agree with this type of thing, but there you have it. Good people, formidible Warriors. Kinda parodoxal huh?

Hank Irwin
1st December 2000, 03:58
Originally posted by Popie

Originally posted by Harold James

Why do some students worship their teachers and think of them as being more than or above ordinary human weaknesses?

I suspect that humans have a great requirement to follow and model the behaviors of others. Here is where that archetype might apply. We have an image which is our guide. That image is a positive image of behavior that starts when we are kids and guides us through adulthood aiding in dealing with others in life. When people fail in presenting a misleading image of themselves we make the excuse that humans by nature are "weak" and prone to mistake. Which is not the case. There is a difference in trying and failing then in B.S.ing and getting caught.

So, I am not sure the idea of being or having weakness is correct. A MA instructor has a job and must be held to it. Maybe archetypes are holding people responsible and creditable to what they do. It seems child have an easier time doing this then adults. Children are always expected to be responsible and creditable, and they put an honest effort into doing so. When they fail we encourage them to continue. But as adults we kick it all to the side, and wear the mask of deception when needed, as we have no intention being responsible and creditable like when where were children. Simple we are less honest as adults, hence it isn't a matter of human weakness per se.

Also, worship is a strong word and may not be so accurate. Kids I think don't worship as much as the emulate, or have the need for behavior to be modeled for them. And this is a reason why I think MA, in today's world, shouldn't be taught to pre-teens. There is lots of other programs and activities for kids where they can get the same or more benefit and value beside a MA class. Because kids so often look and have a great need for a behavioral role model ( as point out by Mr. Schaller) it is not taken seriously. Which if it isn't is an opportunity for a negative childhood experience.

As for adults who "worship" I think if for many more complicated reasons. Here I think word worship applies. Again is it quite a responsibility for a MA instructor to handle and deal with this type of situation. But, never-the-less, it couldn't be a cause for abandoning a role model/leadership persona of the MA. Which is not being a Saint mind you, but following and sticking morals and ethics with out any excuses. No one said MA instructor was easy, despite what we "think" or what we "what" it to be, via all the excuses of weakness for our behavior.




[Edited by Popie on 11-02-2000 at 11:21 AM]

Archtype,.. should be stricken from the dictionary. Model,... just that, something to go by,not to emulate. Don't forget, imitation is the most genuine form of flattery,...not to your Teacher but your ryu.

Hank Irwin
1st December 2000, 04:02
Originally posted by Popie

Originally posted by Blues


Life has so many more facets than just being 'good'. Call me ignorant but I don't see any problem with a role model being a flawed human being. If all our role models are perfect, who is going to teach us how to make mistakes every now and then?

Let me rephrase what I said because it is a complex and difficult issue. MA instructors use the excuse of "I am flawed I am human" when the breech the contract of trust between themselves and the student(s). That is role models can make mistakes. It is the type of mistake that matters. Are they "presenting themselves as a good character and moral behavior when in the classroom and then turn around and violate what they teach or become hypocrites. They must believe and live what they teach which is the passion. They can't just walk into class and put on the morals and ethics mask, then when class is over take that mask off and live the opposite. This is not a simple or beign flaw in a person, this is a major one. This is what I mean. :)


Hey Poiesan, Ever got your hand caught in the "Cookie Jar"?

Paul Schweer
1st December 2000, 17:21
Originally posted by Gil Gillespie
… I believe… that the teacher is more important than the art, but how does an interested outsider judge? Recognizing the qualities you've both mentioned so eloquently comes after years in ones art so a catch-22 seems to rear its head in choosing a teacher.…

What if I chose poorly? Where would I get the perspective to search further?

Hello Gil,

If you'll allow me to back up a little bit, to the original question….

"Why do some students worship their teachers...?"

In my opinion, people develop an interest in study a couple different ways. They are impressed with the teacher, or impressed with the art. (Probably a combination for most people, or just plain not that simple. I said it's my opinion. Give me a break.)

The first relates to the question fairly easily. A potential student meets and/or observes the teacher and, having been impressed with the teacher, decides to study the teacher's art. In this case, it's easy to see how the student might tend to "worship" the teacher. Their reason for study, or at least their reason for beginning, is the teacher and not the art. Such a student would, understandably, be reluctant to consider the possibility that their model might be flawed. If flawed, is the model still worthy of emulation? Maybe just in part? If so, which parts? How to decide? Easier to ignore the flaw, and idolize the teacher.

And the second case? Such a student develops an interest in the art independent of a teacher's influence -- by observing the art's practitioners, self-directed research, whatever -- and decides to study the art based upon an understanding and judgement of the art's merit. Once the decision is made, a teacher is found and study begun. Why might this student tend to "worship" the teacher? Maybe this student, having identified the art's worthwhile attributes, no longer considers these attributes beyond the teacher's instruction and/or demonstration. The teacher becomes, as in the first case, the focus of training.

In both cases the student could, I believe, benefit from an increased commitment to goal-oriented training.

My training includes obligations to those patient enough to instruct me. If I don't act accordingly they'll be disappointed, but if I idolize them I'll be disappointed. It's a fine line. My commitment and desire are my own, but my training is my teacher's gift. I select my teacher based on my understanding, but my understanding is shaped by my teacher. (Catch-22, like you said. Do the crazy know they're crazy?)

What am I trying to do? Why am I trying to do it?

These questions, I believe, give me a chance of selecting a good teacher. Even when ignorant of the art. I am not ignorant of life -- of my experience, my religion, the shared promise of my family -- and it is my responsibility to ensure that all my actions, including my interest in and study of an art, strictly conform to the restrictions and requirements of my moral framework. (For what it's worth, I consistently fall miserably short of this ideal.)

Perceiving and judging our art's merit, and our teacher's character and qualifications, are tasks we perform to the best of our ability. What if I choose poorly? Well that seems likely, but the best I can do is the best I can do. I can only pay attention and hope that when I make a mistake I have the insight to realize it, the courage to act, and the judgement to act appropriately.

Best to you and yours,

Paul Schweer

Joseph Svinth
2nd December 2000, 08:58
From a strictly objective standpoint, you select a dojo or martial art the same way that you objectively choose a spouse. That is, you reject the first one you desperately love, then marry the very next one that comes close to giving you the same joy. The odds of the first one being perfect are small, as are the odds of finding a third that is significantly more satisfactory than the second. There is a formula for this that proves this mathematically, but I don't recall where I read it.

***

Gil asks how one goes about finding a class and a teacher. While the cynical would say to look for karate in the Yellow Pages between "Junk" and "Kitchens," I say instead to look in your heart. That is, when the time is right, the right class and instructor will appear.

Of course, the less-metaphysical among us would suggest hastening matters by meanwhile looking on bulletin boards and utility poles. You can also talk to your friends, and go to local schools and take part in a few classes.

On these trips, view the teachers as if they were used-car salesmen. After all, respect is earned, not issued at some martial art college or rewarded with a piece of colored cloth. If you feel unduly pressured to join their class, leave at once. Any martial art class that needs high-pressure sales is one best avoided.

Also remember that the best martial art is the one that you practice the most, and that you only get out of it what you put into it. Anyone who promises anything more is a liar.

Shop for prices, too. For example, some schools have binding long-term contracts, while others expect you to sell your soul for esoteric knowledge. And a few cost little but expect you to be extraordinarily diligent in your methods. None of these ways is necessarily right. Neither is any of these ways necessarily wrong. It is just that some of them may not be what you want.

Other things that you may want to note during your visits include the following:

• Does the instructor seem familiar with the philosophical and spiritual aspects of his or her art, or is he or she in it just for the money or the power?

• What are the injury rates in this class or style? For example, students in some elite classes specializing in Olympic and AAU taekwondo run a higher risk of getting a concussion than do college football players. On the other hand, there are some commercial karate classes that should be called dance classes, as no one in them has ever felt the strange savage pleasure of hitting and being hit. What's right? Again, it depends on what you want and what you are willing to do to get there.

• What are the students like? Do the senior students move well? Are they fun to watch? Do they seem to care about one another? Or is their twenty years of experience nothing more than one year's experience repeated twenty times?

• Observe the senior students' attitudes, as these are much better mirrors of the teacher than any platitudes that may come rolling off his or her lips. For example, are the students eager to learn? Are they open to new ideas? Or have they already had Truth revealed to them?

• Now take another look at the beginning students. As a group, are they well-behaved or vicious? Either way, how does the instructor encourage the one behavior and discourage the other?

• Throughout the class, watch to see if the instructor gives equal attention to everyone, or does he or she ignore everyone but a few senior students.

• Does the instructor answer questions in terms that you can understand or are questions answered in metaphors or gaffed off?

• Finally, how do all these people treat one another? Are they (as a group) caring and loving (in a non-erotic way), or are they arrogant jerks? The answer matters, for if you join this class, then you are going to become just like them. And this bears repeating -- if you stay with these people, you will become like them. Is that what you want? If it is, then join on the spot. And if it is not, then keep looking.

And don't forget the math: marry the second one you love.

[Edited by Joseph Svinth on 12-02-2000 at 05:43 PM]

Gil Gillespie
2nd December 2000, 17:28
Hi Joe!

Somehow your post should get onto all those phone poles you were referring to. It seems too important to lie buried amid the layers of posts on this thread! You haven't outdone yourself. You've "merely" continued the line of excellence and common sense that has long characterized you on this website. Thanks again, Arigato gozaimashita!

Your hammer once again hit the head of budo's most honored, cliched, yet eternally true nail------ when the student is ready, the teacher will appear. I knew about MA my whole adult life, but MA fell (in my observation) in 2 equally deterring images: that of the Master who's skills and spirituality are so far evolved none can aspire, and the trained thug who hits on your date so he can trash you when you stand up. I saw both, knew both, never knew there was a giant continuum within which even I, the unworthy, may somehow fit.

You also mentioned something about "the savage [something] where one experiences the [reality] of hitting and being hit." Sorry my toddler computer skills don't know how to backtrack & quote. But this is an important lesson in everyone's life, even if they (including she) don't know it. The first time I seriously boxed (with gloves) I got my nose bloodied & knocked down innumerable times. But I learned I could take a good shot and stay with it, keep coming.

As a (youth level) football coach, I always made that my first lesson. We ran the nutcracker, a pro tackling drill & my kids loved it. I taught little kids (both my halfbacks needed wool hats underneath so their helmets fit) that they could knock big people down. They learned you could get kicked in the stomach (or lower) choke it back and tough it out for a couple plays and then be okay. Big lesson in life, we all know now. When you're 10 years old and that helmet makes everything echo SO LOUD you can think you'll never recover. A white belt's reality is so very similar.

I didn't marry the second one I loved. Budo and marriage both came to me at the age of 40. (Always was a late bloomer it seems. . .) But when I did marry I knew I was READY. After a life of chasing (OK sometimes catching) long-legged charmers with big round butts, when the "right one" came along she was a 5 foot Japanese girl with no bootie! In budo I have been equally fortunate. I have never known a bad sensei.

The last idol I worshipped was Willis Reed, basketball center with NY Knicks in mid 60's. He was worthy. I was 14 when he came on the scene, and hoop fans know his spirit was even greater than his prodigious size and (Hall of Fame ) skill. After that I was old enough to realize that all impressive people were just folks like me. When I encountered the great budo sensei's I now train with, I had the perspective to put admiration and profound respect in their proper place.

Joseph Svinth
2nd December 2000, 23:38
Gil -- I've known lots of bad sensei, I just never chose to train with them. If something seems wrong, it probably is, that's my motto. And marrying (and starting budo) at 40 you in a sense did marry the second one. After all, you had frames of reference. But of course that's putting things off a little longer than most of us are willing. Be that as it may, the problem is most folks are looking for Hollywood, and the reality is often far more mundane.

PS. I believe the "strange savage pleasure" line was inspired by Elmore Leonard. Leonard, probably in the same book, perhaps even in the same passage, also noted that no matter how big the other fellow is, his knuckles will hurt tomorrow just like yours do.

[Edited by Joseph Svinth on 12-02-2000 at 05:48 PM]

Hank Irwin
3rd December 2000, 14:17
Through my experiences of pain(had open heart surgery in 64', Oskins Scliters disease at 14, and blew 2 discs out in a fall in the oil field in the 70's) and suffering I have learned much. Life will bring you ONE thing for sure, dissapointment. It will beat you down, take away your loved ones and sometimes make you wish you were never born. But what is new? Nothing. This life can mold us for better or worse, but having the right people around you makes all the difference. I have been a musician all my life and can not come even close to compairing it with KarateDo as an art form. Many try to make things an "Art Form", this is not realistic. Most of us learned the martial arts for one reason to either misuse it or learn for protection. I have NEVER found anything in my life that was harder than MA and I doubt that I ever will. I have broken more bones and cuts and bruises by way of MA than anything else. The world of MA is the most dangerous, violent environment that can be experienced. How many of you have had the living bajeezas scared outta you? Come on, I mean really scared. The romantasism for me is relishing in the lore of olden times. In this day and age Sensei Ego is everywhere. We must be so cafeful in selecting a Teacher, but with forums like these I believe this will eventually stop. Budo does not make good people, people make good people. But, Budo will take you on a journey of a lifetime, filled with joy and righteous people. That's why we need to stick together. For the preservation of Heaven! These are just my thoughts, based on some of my experiences. Art, I love very much. My music/art(i also paint) is good and has brought me much pleasure, but not everyone can be an artist, but KarateDO is a precious treasure that ALL can do.