Books by Kaiso

[David Dunn]

Gassho,

can anyone help me out. I've just bought a book, in paperback, called "What is Shorinji Kempo?" by Doshin So (ISBN 0870401777), copyright 1970, first press 1972, second press 1973.

There is also a book "Shorinji Kempo: philosophy and techniques" which seems to have a similar cover.

My question: are they the same book by different names, or are they actually different books. I suspect the latter, since I seem to remember there being basic embu in a book I've seen which isn't in the one I've bought.

[Joerg]

Gassho David,

here (http://www.alibris.com/books/isbns/18058) I found "Shorinji kempo; philosophy and techniques" with the ISBN 1156261024, so I think it is a different book.

Here (http://www.budovideos.com/shop/customer/product.php?productid=16925) are also pictures from the inside, so you may compare.

I am interested in the book you purchased, I saw it different times on eBay, sold by somone in Poland. Is this the one you bought? How is it?

Ciao

[dtoone]

Originally posted by Joerg
Gassho David,


I am interested in the book you purchased, I saw it different times on eBay, sold by somone in Poland. Is this the one you bought? How is it?


Gassho Joerg:

I also bought one of the Poland Shorinji Kempo books. One has to ask, how does someone get a seemingly endless supply of vintage books? My book is in absolutely perfect condition -- too perfect in fact. My take is that the book is a very good forgery.

[Gary Dolce]

Originally posted by David Dunn
My question: are they the same book by different names, or are they actually different books. I suspect the latter, since I seem to remember there being basic embu in a book I've seen which isn't in the one I've bought.

I have both books. "What is Shorinji Kempo?" is basically an abridged version of "Shorinji Kempo: Philosophy and Techniques". "SK:P&T" is a larger format hardcover. It has some additional techniques in it, plus some embu sequences, plus some self-defense demonstrations in very dated plain clothes (in retrospect, these are kind of funny). I can't remember for sure (I don't have the books in front of me), but I believe the text is identical in both books and other than the other items I have already mentioned, the photos and technical information are also identical.

Both books are out-of-print, but "WISK?" seems to be more readily available in the used book market. I bought my copy of SK:P&T via the Alibris website 5 or 6 years ago at a much lower price than the one currently on the site (but still not cheap). My experience with the Alibris website was good and I would recommend it for buying out-of-print books.

If you want to see more, I might be able to take some pictures an e-mail them to you.

[sean dixie]

Dave, I've got Shorinji Kempo- philosophy and techniques, if your at the next black belt course text me to remind me to bring my copy along for comparison.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by sean dixie
Dave, I've got Shorinji Kempo- philosophy and techniques, if your at the next black belt course text me to remind me to bring my copy along for comparison.
Sean: :shot: for confusing "you're" and "your".
---
I have a book by Kaiso called Shorinji Kempo no Ogi ("The Mysteries of Shorinji Kempo"), which is divided into two sections; in the first, Kaiso describes his life his China and his postwar experiences back home in Japan. (The famous soldiers-on-a-train incident makes an appearance, as do descriptions of some of his early encounters with dojo breakers such as the Kyokushin karateka who challenged Kaiso to a fight and ended up eating dirt.) Part two is an explanation of techniques, with illustrations, and is fairly comprehensive. Hombu, however, refuses to allow this book to be translated. :cry:
Kesshu.

[KempoCat]

The famous soldiers-on-a-train incident makes an appearance, as do descriptions of some of his early encounters with dojo breakers such as the Kyokushin karateka who challenged Kaiso to a fight and ended up eating dirt

tony, can you tell me these stories please... ive never heard them before... am i possibly the last person to know about these things???

[David Dunn]

I conferred with David T, about this book, which yes I did buy from an ebay seller in Poland. I got the book for a reasonable price (54 USD), but the seller insisted on Western Union money transfer, which cost a third again. P&P from Poland was a further 27 USD.

I concur with David, the book is too good to be original, unless the seller has a box that has only just been opened after 30 years. Incidentally he is selling it again, no sooner than he sent me a copy. If you're a collector and want an original, I am sceptical. Since he seems to have a large supply, I might suggest not starting bidding wars with other kenshi. Kaiso's writing, even in translation, cuts straight to the point. It is well worth reading this book.

Thanks Gary, it sounds like SK:P&T is the book that I've seen - a kenshi in plain clothes doing techniques against a chap in a business suit from sixties London? The book is available on Alibris, as Joerg and Gary mentioned, if you want to pay for it. See here (http://www.alibris.com/search/search.cfm?qwork=6063617&ptit=Shorinji%20kempo%3B%20philosophy%20and%20techniques%2E&pauth=So%2C%20Doshin&pisbn=&pbest=283%2E15&pbestnew=1000000%2E00&pqty=5&pqtynew=0&matches=5&qsort=r) for example.

Sean, can't make the next BBC unfortunately. We'll be spending bank holiday in your neck of the woods, near Dorchester. In a tent. So I hope this autumnal weather gets gone before then.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by KempoCat
tony, can you tell me these stories please... ive never heard them before... am i possibly the last person to know about these things???
The "soldiers on the train" story is famous, Felix; it's also included in the movie version of Kaiso's life. As to the karateka, shortly after Hombu was built, a bif man with huge, calloused hands came to Kaiso at Hombu and demanded belligerantly to know how many roofing tiles Kaiso could break with one blow, to which Kaiso replied that roofing tiles really belonged up on the roof, but if he really wanted to smash them, he'd use a hammer. The karateka then thrust out his jaw pugnaciously and made a move at Kaiso, who applied a juho lock and marched the man, screaming and hollering, to the entrance to Hombu, where he then unceremoniusly dumped the guy. Ashen-faced, the karateka then asked to be taken into Shorinji Kempo.
HTH.

[Charles Hammond]

Originally posted by David Dunn
I conferred with David T, about this book, which yes I did buy from an ebay seller in Poland. I got the book for a reasonable price (54 USD), but the seller insisted on Western Union money transfer, which cost a third again. P&P from Poland was a further 27 USD.

I concur with David, the book is too good to be original, unless the seller has a box that has only just been opened after 30 years. Incidentally he is selling it again, no sooner than he sent me a copy. If you're a collector and want an original, I am sceptical. Since he seems to have a large supply, I might suggest not starting bidding wars with other kenshi. Kaiso's writing, even in translation, cuts straight to the point. It is well worth reading this book.

If you have got a fake then you have something of a rarity in the book world. Faking a whole book (at least well enough that it is not immediately noticeable) is a lot of work, even with easily available scanners and laser printers. The cost of printing each copy and having it bound would probably eat significantly into any profits being made, particularly as the seller isn't knocking them out for much.

It's much more likely that the seller has found a box and is selling them off. Unfortunately it's impossible to know for sure without comparing your copy with an original of good provenence; but there should be clues in the paper size and quality, the binding and the reproduction of the photographs and cover. If they're good and seem 'right' then you probably have an original (and if you don't you have a very good facsimile).

Cheers

[Budoka 34]

I have also purchased a copy from our friend in Poland.
I already had a good copy of "What is Shorinji Kempo". When compared side by side the cover art of the Polish book is a bit fuzzy, the cover color a bit brighter and the photos are slightly out of focus.
I'm not the only book collector on e-budo that has this opinion.;)

If they are forgeries they are very good, right down to the binding and paper type.

This particular book seller also has a seemingly unending supply of "Canon of Judo" another very rare title.

:smilejapa

[Kimpatsu]

R. Kite: You read a book by Kaiso and were not immediately seized by the desire to become a Shorinji Kenshi, to the exclusion of all others?
Kill yourself immediately!
:D
---
"Shorinji Kempo no Ogi" went out of print at one time; around 1994/5, at Kyoto Busen, one sensei during Howa advised all kenshi to buy a copy; he then immediately admitted that it was out of print and hard to obtain. It was, however, reprinted for the 1997 world taikai in Kyoto, and I bought a copy; Hombu still refuses me permission to translate it, though. :cry:

[Charles Hammond]

Originally posted by Budoka 34
I have also purchased a copy from our friend in Poland.
I already had a good copy of "What is Shorinji Kempo". When compared side by side the cover art of the Polish book is a bit fuzzy, the cover color a bit brighter and the photos are slightly out of focus.
I'm not the only book collector on e-budo that has this opinion.;)

If they are forgeries they are very good, right down to the binding and paper type.

This particular book seller also has a seemingly unending supply of "Canon of Judo" another very rare title.

:smilejapa

Very interesting; are the copies that you are comparing the same printing? It could be that the variation in cover and picture quality are down to different printings. It would certainly be interesting to know.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Charles Hammond
Very interesting; are the copies that you are comparing the same printing? It could be that the variation in cover and picture quality are down to different printings. It would certainly be interesting to know.
It would also be intereting to know what an Aikidoka is doing in the Shorinji Kempo forum...

[Gary Dolce]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
It would also be intereting to know what an Aikidoka is doing in the Shorinji Kempo forum...

Tony,

Do you have a problem with an Aikidoka posting here? If so, what is it?

[Matt Molloy]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
It would also be intereting to know what an Aikidoka is doing in the Shorinji Kempo forum...

You never know, he may have changed arts and not updated his profile.

I nearly went for Shorinji Kempo after the fantastic demonstration (both technical and later in the way they were totally approachable and cool people when asking questions) given by the Edinburgh Dojo at the International Kendo Enbu Taikai.

As it is, I'm currently doing Wing Chun and Arnis. The Aikido is off at least for the moment. Should I be on E-Budo at all?

Reminds me, I must update my profile.

Cheers,

Matt.

[David Dunn]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
It would also be intereting to know what an Aikidoka is doing in the Shorinji Kempo forum...

Tony, didn't you recently resurrect an old thread (http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=19431) in the judo forum?

[sean dixie]

It's a public forum Tony, everyone here welcomes all sensable contributions from anyone regardless of their style of Budo. You do us all an injustice with these remarks....and the grammar thing...Please Tony.
:rolleyes:

[Budoka 34]

Tony, don't forget my first art was called Shorinji Kempo. It just wasn't the "REAL" Shorinji Kempo.;)
Maybe I should drive to Alabama and train?

The books are infact 6 months apart. My first issue is a May 1974 and the Polish copy is a September 1973. I have seen several other issues and none of them look as different as the Polish copy.



:smilejapa

[Charles Hammond]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
It would also be intereting to know what an Aikidoka is doing in the Shorinji Kempo forum...

Forgetting to update my profile mainly ;)

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by David Dunn
Tony, didn't you recently resurrect an old thread (http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=19431) in the judo forum?
When I posted to that thread, David, it wasn't in the Judo forum; it has since been moved.
Besides, "gi" is such a heinous offence (like mugging old ladies), it needs to be combatted wherever one encounters it... ;)

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Budoka 34
Tony, don't forget my first art was called Shorinji Kempo. It just wasn't the "REAL" Shorinji Kempo.;)
Maybe I should drive to Alabama and train?
Please do; "Sweet home Alabama/Where I kick my friends..." ;)
I don't know what you mean by "real Shorinji Kempo", though. There is only one Shorinji Kempo, as governed by WKSO from Hombu is Tadotsu. Anything else is a fake.

[MagicElvisaj]

Hi
Off topic a bit but what is the name of the movie about Kaiso? I assume it is a Japanese movie.
Onegaishimasu.
Aaron

[David Dunn]

Aaron,
the English version is called 'Killing Machine'. It stars Sonny Chiba.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by David Dunn
Aaron,
the English version is called 'Killing Machine'. It stars Sonny Chiba.
...Or, to give him his real name, Chiba Shin'ichi. He also starred in Sister Streefighter but, much to my chagrin, in the version that's dubbed into English, instead of "Shorinji", they call the art "karate" every time! Aagggghhhh!!!!!

[Tripitaka of AA]

The IMDb links for those two films are shown below. They are "OLD" movies that are, I am told, very much "of the period". In other words they are dated. To see how American film fans ike Quentin Tarantino go on about Sonny Chiba, one would have to assume that his films got a lot more showings in the US than here, where he is unheard of. Britain has a stronger connection with Hong Kong and any local China Town will be a good source for popular films - and for many years the best output of the Hong Kong film industry were the action movies. Still, the average Brit had only heard of Bruce Lee - even Jackie Chan is a new kid on the block for the non-Martial-Arts fan in the UK.

So finding these two may be down to luck, as they won't be available like some blockbuster new release...

Shôrinji kenpô (1975) (http://uk.imdb.com/title/tt0182260/) "The Killing Machine"
Onna hissatsu ken (1974) (http://uk.imdb.com/title/tt0073714/) "Sister Streetfighter"

[David Dunn]

I've seen them both on DVD David ;)

[Tripitaka of AA]

I consider myself an impoverished film fan these days; no money to buy the DVD player or the DVDs, but most of all... no time to watch a decent film without two brats yelling and screaming all the way through. But I do love the medium and I often remember obscure things about films and the people who make them.

I've seen neither, but I will one day :)

[David Dunn]

David,
I spent fifty quid on a DVD player from amazon. Nothing special, but you can watch the films. Killing Machine was on sale on kinteki.com until it closed.

[Kimpatsu]

Gassho.
David (Noble; there are too many Davids on this forum, henceforth, I'm calling David Noble "Hieronymous" and David Dunn "Darius" :D .)
So, Hieronymous:
Can't you play DVDs on your PC? I can.

[Indar]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
Can't you play DVDs on your PC? I can.

really????

how did you manage to hack into his PC across two continents?

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Indar
really????

how did you manage to hack into his PC across two continents?
With wilfull misunderstanding like that, Indar, you should be a politician. ;)

[Tripitaka of AA]

Without descending too far into the "Poor Litte Me" quagmire (don't get me started, I'll start blubbing :cry: ), the decision to remain DVD-less is a moral and ethical one based on my low income. I'm unable to watch much on TV due to my odd working hours and delightful children, so wasting money on luxuries like a blossoming DVD library might seem like an attractive option (watch stuff of non-Disney content after they've gone to school/bed), but I am fighting temptation. So far I have seen the DVD players go from £500 to £250 and recently down to £40. The DVDs have gone from £30 to £20 and recently £7. With all the money I'm saving, I can afford to get an extra candle for the winter... I might splash out at Christmas and buy a Quail for the Family Feast... or buy Tiny Tim a new rubber stopper for his crutch-end.


My PC is a laptop with CD drive (no DVD, no CD-Writer, no mobile technology, and it doesn't even do the washing-up!).


Oh sorry, Tony, perhaps you don't know about "washing up" (I suspect you eat ramen at the stand-up counters outside the Tokyo Subway stations or tsukemono and sembei at the various bars...) ;). I, on the other hand, could expound at some length on the relative properties of Fairy Liquid, Asda Washing Up Liquid or Asda "SmartPrice" Liquid....:(