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Haimeman
2nd November 2000, 15:02
Hello,

I have a question that I have pondered for some time
now. I want to start off by stating that I believe
Shorinji Kempo to be a very complete and beautiful art
but I often wonder why the SK people rarely ever admit
or discuss their connection to Hakko ryu and Daito Ryu.
Only a suppposed Chinese connection is discussed. Just
curious. Thank you.

James feleciano

George Hyde
2nd November 2000, 17:11
Good question James.

I think that whilst the stylistic influence of Hakko Ryu and Daito Ryu may be more obvious than the Shaolin influence - the existence of Shorinji Kempo owes more to the founder's Chinese experience. Were in not for that experience, Kongo Zen/Shorinji Kempo would not exist today at all. As a result, it is that element of the history that is given 'credit' for its foundation and therefor figures more prominently in the teachings.

The noble lineage to which you refer is by no means a secret, or something we'd rather not talk about. If you've come upon reticence over that subject in the past it probably has more to do with a lack of knowledge on behalf of the individual in question rather than any conspiracy to conceal or avoid the facts.

Hope that helps.

Later,

migjohns
3rd November 2000, 15:00
I think recently Honbu has been a lot better about providing information about Shoringi Kempo's connection to other martial arts. At a study session/grading I attended last year in December at the Nagoya Budo-kan a guest Sensei (I'm sorry I can't recall his name) talked specifically about Doshin So's experience in studying Hakko Ryu. Since that time, the subject seems to have come up quite a bit. Five or six years ago when I lived in Hokkaido, when I asked high ranking sensei about the Hakko Ryu connection, they were utterly confused because they had never even heard of that particular martial art before. They certainly were not trying to obscure history or cover anything up, they simply did not not know about it.

Anyone who has seen Japanese jujutsu would assume a direct influence on Shoringi Kempo's juho techniques (some of the techniques are identical). Whether or not the similarities are coincidence/convergence between Japanese and Chinese grappling arts (there are after all only a finite number of way to reverse or lock a joint, or off-balance an attacker) is anyone's guess.

A question related to this subject; Does anyone know to what level Kaiso attained in Hakko Ryu? If anyone knows, please let us know.

Mike Johnson
Inuyama Kita Shibu

Anders Pettersson
7th November 2000, 23:35
Hi.

I've heard that So Doshin-sensei only enrolled the Hakko ryu to find out and learn about how other arts structured their classes, can't really verify this though. Will try to find out more.

But I believe that he couldn't have reached very far in the system if he studied it. Okuyama founded Hakko ryu in 1942 (?) and Kaiso (So Doshin) returned to Japan, after the World War II, in 1946. He then founded Shorinji Kempo in 1947.
That doesn't give much time to study any other art.

Torakan
14th November 2000, 18:25
Although I do not practice SK I did practice Hakko-ryu and have this opinion on this question. First Doshin So, according to Don Draeger's Modern Budo and Bujutsu, practiced Hakko-ryu between 1946 and 1948 and could have reached an advanced level in this art. This influence could be found in the Juho techniques and many of the techniques contained in Doshin So's book, What is Shorinji Kempo, do resemble those of Hakko-ryu. Also, on some points, the philosophy of Shodai Soke Okuyama and Doshin So also resemble each other. However, we must also remember that the Hakko-ryu training of Doshin So was over 50 years ago and that the SK techniques today may have evolved beyond that influence. This might explain why current students of SK are not that aware of the Hakko ryu influence. On a technical level Hakko-ryu techniques are not really done the same way as they are done in SK. I also agree with Mr Hyde that the chinese kempo influence is what makes SK distinct from other Japanese martial traditins.

Darrell Kaiser

Steve Williams
25th November 2000, 23:35
Shorinji Kempo does (on the surface) have many similarities to many other styles, which in itself is not a bad thing.
The Hakko-Ryu connection is probably not any clearer than the connection with other Ju-jutsu styles, just that Doshin So trained for a short time in Hakko-Ryu.

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This is a basic overview of Hakko-Ryu:
Hakko-ryu
A style of jujutsu founded on June 1, 1941 by Ryuho Okuyama in Japan. It is designed to handle attacks by applying pressure on the body's keiraku (meridians) to cause intense but non-damaging pain and thus destroy the attacker's will to continue. The aim of Hakko-ryu technique is to neutralise, control and discourage an attacker with techniques that employ minimal strength yet generate maximum efficiency. Okuyama created his system upon the belief that the successful application of technique versus the application of physical strength could overcome attacks in a self-defence context. The ability to neutralise and control both the attacker and the situation is the hallmark of Hakko-ryu jujutsu, which translates as "school of the eighth light".
Hakko-ryu techniques are taught in two basic ways: suwari-waza (kneeling) and tachi-waza (standing). The former teaches the student to master the hand techniques predominant in this style; in the latter, the student integrates the hand technique with footwork and tai-sabaki (body movement). Here, tensing and the use of power are discouraged in favour of suppleness and flexibility. The principle behind each technique compensates for power. Hakko-ryu does not teach specific techniques and defences for a myriad of possible attacks, but instead a thorough mastery of the principles upon which the techniques are based.

Seems familiar to us practicing Shorinji Kempo, but this is also from the same site (one about the history of Ju-jitsu styles:
Shorinji Kan Jiu Jitsu
Shorinji Kan Jiu Jitsu was founded by Riukiu Myura, a policeman and later chief unarmed combat instructor at the Tokyo police academy. Since a child, he had studied extensively in various jiu jitsu schools (mainly Kodokan jiu jitsu), as well as the art of Shorinji Kempo. He later combined his knowledge of jiu jitsu and Shorinji Kempo and, with his police perspective on modern street fighting situations, formed his own style which he named Shorinji Kempo Jiu Jitsu. On his return to England, Brian Graham held a 2nd dan in Judo as well as a 5th (Go) Dan in Jiu Jitsu (since graded to 6th Dan Shi'han when Sensei Komp visited Britain in '97). He renamed the style Shorinji Kan Jiu Jitsu and established the first Samurai Jiu Jitsu Club in Keighly, Yorkshire. Under the guidance of Brian Graham and Peter Farrah (one of Brian's first students), the style spread rapidly in Britain. An association was formed called the National Samurai Jiu Jitsu Association, which was renamed The Jitsu Foundation in 1990.
Sadly, Peter Farrah passed away in 1997, but the Foundation has continued to grow and now has over 90 clubs in Britain. As well, a number of instructors have moved to other countries and opened clubs there.
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All this proves is that similarities can be drawn from many different viewpoints, and as is documented Doshin So became the 21st master of the Northern Shorinji Giwamonken school in China (he also studied many other Chinese and Japanese styles) also on returning to Japan he examined Karate, Judo, boxing and Sumo, from which to draw ideas.

So Shorinji Kempo does have similarities to many other styles, but is an extremely effective style in its own right, any lack of knowledge of the links is just that (a lack of knowledge), from a personal viewpoint (and after many years of practice) I was unaware of many of these connections until only a couple of years ago.


Unfortunately Doshin So passed away in 1980, so much of his knowledge and history may now be unavailable...

Devon Smith
20th January 2001, 21:36
I'd love to hear comments from someone who might've had experience in both arts.

I guess the chances might be pretty small, but just maybe you're out there reading this?

Devon

migjohns
22nd January 2001, 02:23
After reading about the Shoringi Kempo/Hakko Ryu connection several years ago, I visited a Daito Ryu dojo in the town next to where I lived at that time (in Hokkaido). As I had read that Hakko Ryu was a derivative of Daito Ryu (Okuyama Sensei being a student of Matsuda, Hosaku), I thought it might be interesting to try some of their techniques. I was surprised to see them practicing not only what I call "intuitive" (intuitive in that it is a basic wrist lock seen in many different martial arts) techniques such as "Maki Otoshi", but also more complex techniques such as "Okuri Katate Nage" in a very similar manner as is practiced in Shoringi Kempo. For myself, the similarities were simply too obvious to ignore, and I know accept as fact that some of Shoringi Kempo's techniques must have come from traditional Japanese budo.

Best Regards,
Mike Johnson
Inuyama Kita Shibu