Kihon dosa of yoshinkan

[Haimeman]

A question for Yoshinkan advocates,

Was kihon dosa a form developed by Shioda Sensei
or is this something from the Aiki Budo period.
It appears to be a footwrok and shintaiho kata.
Thanks for any info.

James feleciano

[Ron Tisdale]

The kihon dosa of Yoshinkan were developed by several longtime instructors at the hombu dojo under Shioda Kancho's supervision. There is a thread on the aikido journal website devoted to the kihon dosa of Yoshinkan that may be worth checking out.

http://www.aikidojournal.com/ubb/Forum9/HTML/000232.html

One relevant section from a post in that thread by Steven Miranda Sensei (dojo cho of a dojo in california) states:

"Now as far as the origin is concerned, there is some debate, but I'll share what I've heard and read. In a
recent interview with Kyoichi Inoue dojocho, he speaks about how the Yoshinkan teaching method was first
introduced due to having to train 300+ students (Police officers) at one time. Inoue Sensei mentions that he
would have everyone go into migi hanmi, then correct it, and so on with every technique, because everyone
was doing whatever it was they thought they saw.

Being as this method worked for the police, Inoue Sensei goes on to speak about how this method was used
to teach the basic movements (kihon dosa). They divided them into six types including two versions each of
tai no henko (body turning), hiriki no yosei (elbow power) and shumatsu dosa (finishing movements).

Once the exercise was developed, he goes on to say they demonstrated it to Kancho Shioda for his
approval, recommendations and advice. Inoue Sensei also indicates that he and Takashi Kushida Sensei,
were the ones that helped refine the exercise.

This interview is in AJMAG, Volume 26 - No. 3."

The kihon dosa involve more than just footwork. The movements are "total body" movements that actually make up the techniques we practise: they more or less define how we move while performing technique. There are even "katas" that have you perform the basic movement with a partner, then perform a technique based on that same movement. One of these goes through every basic movement and their related technqiques. I personally strongly recommend this method of training. It give you a strong foundation in proper movement, a good "homework" exercise, and a good vocabulary for discussing and teaching technique.

Ron Tisdale

[szczepan]

funny thing...Sugano sensei(one of uchideshi of O'sensei), during last seminar, mention how O'sensei teaching was modern, based rather on repeating movements(as in modern sports) then on kata(as in koryu).It has as result a possibility to develop individual styles and evolution of art, develop sensitivity and spontaneous execution of techniques...

regardz

[Ron Tisdale]

Lets see; In your usual cryptic way, are you saying that the yoshinkan training method in some way precludes "develop[ing] individual styles and evolution of art, develop[ing] sensitivity and spontaneous execution of techniques... " ?

Or are you saying Sugano Sensei said this?

Many in the koryu would say that kata does not preclude such development. It simply gives the practitioner a good base to jump off from. A base in principles of movement, strategy, etc.

My experience would lead me to believe that the yoshinkan methods have led me to the best aikido and the best martial art that I have ever practised (this is not a slight to other styles or arts; Yoshinkan just suits me best). And it contains all of the things you mentioned. Rather than worship some unknown person, no matter *who* they are, in this case, I'll just go with my experience (and continue to seek new experiences as well).

Ron Tisdale

[szczepan]

Originally posted by Ron Tisdale
Lets see; In your usual cryptic way, are you saying that the yoshinkan training method in some way precludes "develop[ing] individual styles and evolution of art, develop[ing] sensitivity and spontaneous execution of techniques... " ?

Or are you saying Sugano Sensei said this?

Many in the koryu would say that kata does not preclude such development. It simply gives the practitioner a good base to jump off from. A base in principles of movement, strategy, etc.

My experience would lead me to believe that the yoshinkan methods have led me to the best aikido and the best martial art that I have ever practised (this is not a slight to other styles or arts; Yoshinkan just suits me best). And it contains all of the things you mentioned. Rather than worship some unknown person, no matter *who* they are, in this case, I'll just go with my experience (and continue to seek new experiences as well).

Ron Tisdale

Hi Ron :wave:

I'm not attacking/criticising you or Yoshinkai.During seminars we are not talking about other styles of aikido.We simply practice.
Only here, there is a place where we can compare so interesting and still different ideas...so don't be so fast offended.Because of this kind disscussions(and visiting other styles dojo) I'm well aware about quite few weakness in my aikido style and in my dayily practice I try to change my weakness in my force.

Sensei explained O'sensei breaked through with koryu arts not only at philosophical level,technical level but also in training method level.He didnt disscuss yoshinkan method of course :D
It's only me, after reading you interesting post.I'm sorry if I offended you.

Yoshinkan rulez!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

regardz

[Ron Tisdale]

Must be the language thing....I'm not offended, and Yoshinkan, if it should ever need it, can be defended by much better than me.

Now that I understand the topic of discussion better, lets see if I can frame it....

"based rather on repeating movements(as in modern sports) then on kata(as in koryu)."

What is a kata except repeating movements (the movements are based on certain principles, hopefully)? And in fact, the yoshinkan basic movements are just that, movements that are repeated (ad infinitum, in my case, because I need to).

Maybe someone from the koryu perspective can weigh in here. While kata seem to be one item that make koryu what they are, I think there are several other items that are in fact more distinguishing:

1) composite art dealing with unarmed and armed combat.

2) unifying principles through out the composite art

3) the personal nature of the instruction -- hopefully the head of the art or its local representative teaching the student on a *very* individual basis.

We all know that kata are in gendai as well as koryu arts. And it would seem that kata are throughout aikido as well. But it is not what I would call a true composite art, because of the nature of the weapons work and training (it doesn't seem to be truly combat worthy, according to people who have really studied weapons).

While there are unifying principles through-out the art, there seems to be something different in their nature from the koryu type of principles. I need some help defining this difference.....

Lastly, aikido is a mass market kind of art, for better or worse. As much as I love it, and want to share it, I'm not sure that the art itself benefits from this kind of mass market approach (I'm sure there are many who do not take this approach, but the art has suffered some problems because of it). The kind of individual instruction and relationship I hear of in the koryu don't seem to take place as much in aikido.

In fact, the yoshinkan basic movements grew out of the need to teach large groups of students where individual instruction was not possible.

Can you define the differences between modern sport kinds of repeated movements and the repeated movements of kata for me? What would be your example of sport movements that are repeated?

Ron Tisdale