This was interesting

[Mushin Ronin]

I thought maybe some of you might like to read this. I just happened to come across it.

http://www.dragon-tsunami.org/Dtimes/Pages/articled2.htm

[Brian Pettett]

Damn, that's some extreme stuff (didja check out the footnotes?) But it was also really interesting. I'd heard that Toyama ryu was developed during WW2, but that was about it. I never read why it formed, and that it was a response to a feeling that iaido had devolved over the years. Thanks for the link.

[seskoad]

The footnote no.12, Anyone know more detail about that history (behind the assasination)?

[Tiger Ed]

Yes I agree interesting stuff-shame there is no more.

[A.J. Bryant]

This article and/or Nakamura's thoughts on Iaido have been around for quite a while. I think some of his observations are a little biased and to be fair, he never studied any line of Hasegawa Eishin-ryu seriously (only Omori-ryu to my knowledge).

That said, the majority of his beef seems to be with Omori-ryu, which those of us involved in MSR/MJER know was probably never meant to be a combat effective school anyway. Oe Masamichi subsumed the art into Eishin-ryu to serve as a training set (ditto for Hakudo sensei).

Additionally, Oe sensei had combat experience and this found its way into his teachings and subsequently, those of his students as well. Tameshigiri was, in fact, a training tool within the Hasegawa Eishin lines prior to WWII. These “Iaido” people did know how to cut, and they cut well. Many period photos have recently become available and pre-war film of Nakayama Hakudo is now widely available too.

One must realize that MSR/MJER forms are waza, not kata. They are not stagnant forms and can/are altered (during what some call the “ha” stage of training). Therefore, Shohatto/Mae can become a tachi waza and yoko-nuki becomes gyaku-nuki; kirioroshi becomes kesagiri, etc. Still Shohatto however. There is film of Nakayama Hakudo doing just this. He moves from one unconnected form to the next, altering and combining movements as he sees fit. It’s jiyu-geiko (free-style practice).

After WWII, many teachers of iai attempted to soften the art and in some cases, this school of thought remains to this day ("iai is moving zen" and other such nonsense). This is, I feel, what Nakamura sensei had such a problem with. Ultimately, he does raise some very good points and he was doing so when no one else was. He caused many people to rethink their training methods, just as we all should today, when reading his article. We should never forget that what we do is budo. It’s not Kenbu and should be studied with that in mind.

Today, my feeling is we’re heading into the other extreme. EVERYONE is cutting everything they can get their hands on, regardless of having any serious training or not. This pool-noodle/water jug/wrapping paper tube nonsense has got to stop. Also, many of these “trick cuts” that are commonly seen in today’s tameshigiri are not much better that yesteryear’s carnival sideshow “iai-nuki” demonstrations.

Just my two cents...

[Mushin Ronin]

Very well said and thought out Mr. Bryant. Thank you for taking the time to do reply. Iaido has both sides of the coin and it should I think. The "practical" and the zen. The emphasis should be placed on the practical first IMHOP. Do the techniques as you would if you actually were being attacked. This brings out the "spirit/jutsu" that is lying dormant.


Thanks

[Joseph Svinth]

If you hadn't seen that link before, then you may not have seen Guy's own website before:

http://www.webdiva4hire.com/kenshinkan/index.html

[Sherman Chow]

"4. There is no possible reason for sitting erect on the knees while wearing a long sword, although it is correct to wear the short sword thus. When entering any building it was always proper to remove the long sword from the wearer's sash while at the foyer. Drawing the long sword while in the formal kneeling position is wrong in terms of etiquette and sword technique."


every time I read this, I can't help but think how incredibly damning it must be to iaido/jutsu if what Nakamura says is true.

[Sillal]

every time I read this, I can't help but think how incredibly damning it must be to iaido/jutsu if what Nakamura says is true.

I don't see how this should dampen anyones spirits in regards to their training, nor imply the training is no good.

[Tiger Ed]

Although I do like the piece and I do not doubt Nakamura Taizaburos ability and experience which is far, far more than my own. I feel some parts of the article are silly or heavily biased, the bias I can live with as any praticioner of any art is biased.

Personally I do not agree with the above on kneeling and drawing the long sword as it is against etiquette etc, if it is why is there so many good techniques from the kneeling position?

An a similar note I disagree with myself is point number 3, as I am quite able to sit on my kneees and perform the techniques. I am sure that we all are able to. I cannot see how this point has anything to do with the rest of the text. nWhere youcome from has nothing to do with your ability to kneel, this is quite offensive to non-Japanese.

Point number 12 concerns me too, striking with the tsuka. Obviously the better part to strike with is the blade itself but using the tsuka does have its advanteges. It turms the sword into a whole weapon, instead of just a blade. There are also instances when the tsuka is the only available weapon, when your sword is sheathed for instance. The tsuka can be used to manipulate the body effectivly too. Finally it gives you a weapon with which you can control the force and leathality, hitting someone with the tsuka can be better then the blade for legal reasons and if the desired result is not to hurt them but just to incapacitate?

As I said I am no means an expert, and the author is by far my superior but I do have a few concerns about the article. This is just my $0.02 though (seems to be a popular saying) and I am not having a go if it comes accross that way I apologise.

[ulvulv]

Originally posted by Sherman Chow
"4. There is no possible reason for sitting erect on the knees while wearing a long sword, although it is correct to wear the short sword thus. When entering any building it was always proper to remove the long sword from the wearer's sash while at the foyer. Drawing the long sword while in the formal kneeling position is wrong in terms of etiquette and sword technique."


every time I read this, I can't help but think how incredibly damning it must be to iaido/jutsu if what Nakamura says is true.

Chew on this one, and experience how truly damning e-budo also can be. haha


http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=18536&highlight=seiza

[ZealUK]

I think its a fair enough comment to say non Japanese find seiza and tate hiza uncomfortable. If I sit in seiza for any extended period my legs go to sleep, and it becomes uncomfortable. I think what he is saying that Japanese sit like this often, and therefore would naturally find it more comfortable.

Tate hiza is just plain uncomfortable :D

[SLeclair]

Originally posted by Sherman Chow
"4. There is no possible reason for sitting erect on the knees while wearing a long sword, although it is correct to wear the short sword thus. When entering any building it was always proper to remove the long sword from the wearer's sash while at the foyer. Drawing the long sword while in the formal kneeling position is wrong in terms of etiquette and sword technique."

every time I read this, I can't help but think how incredibly damning it must be to iaido/jutsu if what Nakamura says is true.

I find that comment strange. Obviously, the masters of old had reasons to put together sets that start from seiza. Were they ignorant etiquette and sword technique? That seems doubtful. There must have been a valid reason for it. I may not be sure of the reason, but my sensei have their thoughts, their sensei probably have their own, all the way up to soke, who might have a totally different reason for it, but a reason nonetheless. The cool thing is, you don't need to know the reason. Just as you don't need to know the reason for not dropping the tip of the sword below the nape of the neck when cutting, or the reason for drawing towards the eyes, or the reason for switching feet after chiburi of certain kata. You can form thoughts about these, you can't be sure if they're right, but as long as you do it like sensei tells you to, it's all good.

I'd also recommend reading Kim Taylor's old article on Omori Ryu at http://www.uoguelph.ca/~kataylor/07TIN90.htm (after the Technical Notebook section). Forgive me if I keep thinking that whether Omori ryu is meant to be a set of practical, possible situations isn't all that important and isn't damning to the art in any way.

---
Sebastien L.

[GarethB]

One theory that I've heard is that the seiza techniques were originally for wakizashi, but have been modified to be practiced with katana. I can't say how true that actually is, it's just something I heard.

[Brian Pettett]

That was a good read, Sebastien. Thanks for the link.

[renfield_kuroda]

I have never met a legitimate iai instructor of any style who insists that samurai used to sit in seiza indoors with their katana.
The creation of seiza iai kata is a training technique to help learn the necessary movements of iai (drawing and cutting with the hips, etc.) and to facilitate indoor dojo training.
The seiza kata in Mugairyu are variations of the standing kata: ren - musogaeshi, shin - maegoshi, etc.
This is not some big conspiracy or secret that iai folks hope no one figures out. It is not particularly damning evidence against iai as legitimate sword work.

Regards,
r e n

[Mushin Ronin]

It's interesting that all the iai kata from what I've seen of them, can equally be done standing. I do kendo, not iaido and my style of aikido discarded seiza and knee walking..though it's neat watch.

We had a Japanese exchange student studying at our dojo, and he was really good at knee walking. He also didn't want to go back to Japan, which I thought interesting.

Anyway standing is my preference....I can't sit in seiza for any length of time (weak jointed American).

[Sherman Chow]

Originally posted by ulvulv
Chew on this one, and experience how truly damning e-budo also can be. haha


http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=18536&highlight=seiza

Ah yes,
now I remember...I think I had subconsciously blocked this thrad from memory. Fun and happy times those were...

In regards to point 4., let me clarify that I do not necessarily agree or disagree with Nakamura. His views are of a certain ideology that I respect highly. It's one ideology among many ideologies. It's just that whenever I read this, the next time I practice iai I feel a little nagging sensation in the back of my head. Oh well, I still do it, and love it.

Sherman