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Kamuii
3rd November 2000, 03:55
Greetings to all! :smilejapa

I would like to ask why did some of the koryu in the past changed the name of their art from Taijutsu to Jujutsu?

I know that not everyone did this change, but some actually did, I think...

It is known also that Taijutsu and Jujutsu are mostly the same except that the term Jujutsu(If I am not mistaken) was used form 1600 on.

Then again in some ryu they have listed Taijutsu and Jujutsu as different areas of study...what would be the difference? (I beleieve that the difference would be in the characteristics of the ryu in particular, but what would you say?)

Then again I believe that Taijutsu and Jujutsu are generic terms for some fighting arts in Japan in which they can have different characteristics between the same art name and between ryu. Taijutsu and Jujutsu could be the same and can be different just as it can be between two Taijutsu styles or Jujutsu styles...What do you think?

Best,:smilejapa

efb8th
5th November 2000, 15:29
Hi, All.

And while you're at it, if you could explain how "Yawara" fits into the tapestry of names, I would be greatly edified.

Thanks in advance,

Earl Hartman
6th November 2000, 18:17
"Yawara" and "Ju" are, respectively, the native Japanese and Sino-Japanese pronunciations of the same Chinese character, which means flexibility, pliability, or softness. For example, the well-known female Olympic lightweight judo champion (can't remember her name) is affectionately referred to in Japan as "Yawara-chan" (Miss Yawara).

Yawara is a genenic term for arts/techniques which make use of the priniciple of flexibility. These arts concentrate on unarmed or lightly armed combat methods. In older comprehensive fighting systems yawara techniques are often subsumed within the overall curriculum of the ryu. For instance, Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu is known nowadays as a school of iaido, but its original curriculum contained bojutsu (staff fighting) torinawa (arresting cord) and yawara.

The judo/jujutsu/koryu guys will know more about this.

Neil Hawkins
7th November 2000, 09:28
I have to admit that I can't find any references to a traditional style outside of the Ninjutsu related ones that used the term taijutsu.

I was under the impression, and perhaps one of the Ninpo guys can confirm this, that they used taijutsu because the techniques were not restricted to combat but encompassed all body techniques including walking, running, evasion, strengthening and so on.

Sorry I can't help more.

Regards

Neil

George Kohler
7th November 2000, 16:43
Originally posted by Neil Hawkins
I have to admit that I can't find any references to a traditional style outside of the Ninjutsu related ones that used the term taijutsu.


Hi Neil,

There are other ryuha that uses the word taijutsu. Off the top of my head, there is Asayama Ichiden Ryu (all branches)and Yagyu Shingan Ryu (Muto sensei's branch). So it is not a Ninpo thing.

Earl Hartman
7th November 2000, 20:27
Nagao Ryu Taijutsu, a traditional art based in the Kaga area (present day Ishikawa Prefecture) is not a Ninpo tradition and it has always called itself taijutsu.

Byron Quick
21st November 2000, 02:56
Masutatsu Oyama in his book 'This is Karate' used the term taijutsu. He was not referring to ninjutsu.

Jari Virta
30th September 2001, 12:15
Originally posted by Kamuii
I would like to ask why did some of the koryu in the past changed the name of their art from Taijutsu to Jujutsu?

I noticed this old thread that had been left a bit unanswered... Some more info on the "names of jujutsu" can be found in this online article: http://koryu.com/library/mskoss8.html

Chris Li
30th September 2001, 13:24
Originally posted by Kamuii
Greetings to all! :smilejapa

I would like to ask why did some of the koryu in the past changed the name of their art from Taijutsu to Jujutsu?

I know that not everyone did this change, but some actually did, I think...

It is known also that Taijutsu and Jujutsu are mostly the same except that the term Jujutsu(If I am not mistaken) was used form 1600 on.

Then again in some ryu they have listed Taijutsu and Jujutsu as different areas of study...what would be the difference? (I beleieve that the difference would be in the characteristics of the ryu in particular, but what would you say?)

Then again I believe that Taijutsu and Jujutsu are generic terms for some fighting arts in Japan in which they can have different characteristics between the same art name and between ryu. Taijutsu and Jujutsu could be the same and can be different just as it can be between two Taijutsu styles or Jujutsu styles...What do you think?

Best,:smilejapa

Fashion, basically. Historically, there were any number of terms used for unarmed combat in Japanese, and little or no standardization of any kind. People used whatever they liked, or whatever was in common usage at the time and place where they happened to live.

Best,

Chris

Connor Sims
30th September 2001, 23:28
Hi Earl,

You must be referring to is Ryoko Tamura who won gold in Sydney 2000 !

Connor Sims



Quote from Earl Hartman:
For example, the well-known female Olympic lightweight judo champion (can't remember her name) is affectionately referred to in Japan as "Yawara-chan" (Miss Yawara).

Jeff Hamacher
1st October 2001, 03:12
i've heard my aikido teacher use the term "taijutsu" to distinguish unarmed techniques from those where weapons are used. this is perhaps similar to Earl's comment regarding the use of the term "yawara" in classical sogobujutsu schools.

fifthchamber
9th October 2001, 13:36
Hello,
I have been studying Genbukan Ninpo Taijutsu for the last couple of years now and also take a great deal of interest in the history of both my arts and the other Bujutsu (less so Budo...Judo,Karate,Kendo etc.. but I do still look at them generally)
From what I have learnt Taijutsu and Jujutsu are two different systems..similar to Kendo and Kenjutsu being the 'same' but different. Taijutsu means 'body arts' while Jujutsu means 'flexibility arts' (without going into a page of disscussion on what the Ju principle really means) The two are closely related but the name Taijutsu was not changed into Jujutsu. Jujutsu, Yawara, kogusoku, koshi no mawari, taijutsu, koppo jutsu, dakentaijutsu etc are basically various names with different meanings used by the ryu founder to seperate this ryu from any other essentially while also defining the practices used in the school curriculum. The best way to understand these names is to learn the basic Japanese that will allow you to read the names and understand the meanings in Kanji especially as there can be many principles around one word..Ju and Yawara being a good example as both use the same character for their Kanji..the only difference being in the way the word is used in speech by the Japanese.
There are certainly differences in the styles that each name uses but the disscussion on that would run to pages, variations include use of weapons (Koshi no Mawari) Atemi (Dakentaijutsu) throws and locks (Jujutsu) or mixes of all these (Taijutsu..general body arts..not as restricted as Jujutsu etc..)
Koryu.com has a good article on the differences between Taijutsu and Jujutsu. Or you could check the web search engines for individually named schools and their own points of view on the names used.
The subject is very complex and I am no expert but a wide reading will help clear up the differences even if you cannot explain them too easily!!
A good book to start with is Serge Mol's "Classical martial arts of Japan- a complete guide to Koryu Jujutsu" which has brief passages on the schools that use the various names.
Hope this helps you.
Abayo.